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Offline mauro63

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portal allMETEO changes and software
« on: August 23, 2020, 08:57:52 AM »
I open this post to try to enclose here everything about the allMETEO web interface and everything about any software requests, compatibility with other platforms, etc.
We do not post technical requests related to the tools but everything we would like the new web interface to do and everything we would like to be implemented.
I can assure you that the Company, while not responding directly to messages, will take into account every report, evaluating its feasibility.

On behalf of the company, I thank all those who want and have the opportunity to contribute

Thank you
Mauro

Offline Jorginho

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Ffirst things that come to mind
« Reply #1 on: August 24, 2020, 05:42:09 AM »
Since every company can go bust, it would be nice or to me even required to run this hardware completely autonomous without the need for anything from Barani in case of bankruptcy, change in policy whatsoever.

So first thing: is there a way if necessary to simply receive the data directly or at least in a matter that might be  depending on Sigfox. LoRaWan or NB-IoT but nothing else?

Second of all: for now, if I am correct we install the weatherstation and the data somehow gets to the site of Barani (Igiess allmeteo is from Barani, unsure though). Who does this data belong to? I could think: I bought the whole hardware and the data obtained with it is mine. But quite a few companies think: well you needed my site to obtain them so the data is mine (too). Data can be worth a lot. So how is this arranged?

Third: can the data be downloaded to use in spreadsheets for presentations and what format is used? Is the download only possible or are there others than can do so without me knowing it?

If we look at the competition, the direct competition, Davis if we want to we can collect the data privately and keep it to ourselves and/or upload to our own or someone elses site. Can we do this with Barani and if not is it feasible in the future (any plans)?

What kind of data I think we (or at least I) need is something I need to think through in order not to ask these questions in multiple messages. I'll see if I  can find some time to do this.

Thx in advance for your answers!




« Last Edit: August 24, 2020, 04:02:16 PM by Jorginho »

Offline mauro63

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Re: Ffirst things that come to mind
« Reply #2 on: September 01, 2020, 04:41:13 PM »
Since every company can go bust, it would be nice or to me even required to run this hardware completely autonomous without the need for anything from Barani in case of bankruptcy, change in policy whatsoever.

So first thing: is there a way if necessary to simply receive the data directly or at least in a matter that might be  depending on Sigfox. LoRaWan or NB-IoT but nothing else?

Second of all: for now, if I am correct we install the weatherstation and the data somehow gets to the site of Barani (Igiess allmeteo is from Barani, unsure though). Who does this data belong to? I could think: I bought the whole hardware and the data obtained with it is mine. But quite a few companies think: well you needed my site to obtain them so the data is mine (too). Data can be worth a lot. So how is this arranged?

Third: can the data be downloaded to use in spreadsheets for presentations and what format is used? Is the download only possible or are there others than can do so without me knowing it?

If we look at the competition, the direct competition, Davis if we want to we can collect the data privately and keep it to ourselves and/or upload to our own or someone elses site. Can we do this with Barani and if not is it feasible in the future (any plans)?

What kind of data I think we (or at least I) need is something I need to think through in order not to ask these questions in multiple messages. I'll see if I  can find some time to do this.

Thx in advance for your answers!

Hello,

the actual and future approach is always more involved to the cloud
even Davis, with new weatherlink live, for example, give to the registered user to access to his data, he can download his data but Davis will treat such data as if they were his own
Nobody can have access to my data on Davis platform, and the same happens with Barani, you can download your data from davis in CSV file format, and the same you can do with allmeteo's portal

About the other questions, I think we has already talked, and we need to wait for the new web interface improvements and news

Mauro

Offline Jorginho

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Re: portal allMETEO changes and software
« Reply #3 on: September 02, 2020, 04:01:41 AM »
That is true but such an approach is at least not solely customerorientated. Davis offers both btw and there are no signs of them changing this. But that is of course in no small part because both the Vue and VP2 are old designs.

I thiink, but am completely unsure, that most users in this group are fine with both, but just the cloud restricts you. Barani currently being a prime example as we now have now way to connect to wow etc. Whereas there is a multitude of programms like cumulus that use the direct interfacing in order to upload to wow, WU, Awekas etcetc.
Personally I really ahte the cloud.

Offline johnd

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Re: portal allMETEO changes and software
« Reply #4 on: September 02, 2020, 04:57:24 AM »
That is true but such an approach is at least not solely customerorientated. Davis offers both btw and there are no signs of them changing this. But that is of course in no small part because both the Vue and VP2 are old designs.

I'm not sure what it's got to do with the age of the original designs. The Vue/VP2 wireless technology works well and is pretty much as good as anything I'm aware of available today in terms of range, data bandwidth, low power use etc. Granted, Davis do use ZigBee in the Enviromonitor models which gives a bit more range, but probably more importantly is the scope for mesh networking. If they were to make a change for VP3 then it might be the EM Zigbee model and the Weatherlink Live equivalent would be something like the EM IP Gateway, which is readily available now..

Technologies like LoRaWAN, SigFox and (I imagine) NB-IoT are fine for greater range but only allow low data bandwidth. So they are potentially good for agriculture applications, but you wouldn't expect to see eg live wind data with per-second updates from a LoRa device - the technology is not designed for that.

But I agree that stations need both a local API and a cloud platform target. Weatherlink Live has both, which is obviously why software like CumulusMX, weewx, Weather Display, Meteobridge etc can receive data locally from WLL. Users definitely like the flexibility that this brings.
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Offline Jorginho

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Re: portal allMETEO changes and software
« Reply #5 on: September 02, 2020, 07:17:56 AM »
Hi,

Sorry I wasn't clear about this....The old design means there was no cloud option back then as far as I know and if it was it was in its infancy. So since Davis never changed their basics a datalogger connected in a wireless way was the only way to go. Currently there are other options and Barani seems to chose from them, may be Davis would have done the same but the could not back then.

Indeed a VP3 might be completely different. Would be very sad.

Offline johnd

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Re: portal allMETEO changes and software
« Reply #6 on: September 02, 2020, 07:24:53 AM »
Currently there are other options

Which are other options are you thinking of? I've mentioned the current Davis technology and also ZigBee. And also LoRaWAN, SigFox (and probably NB-IoT as well) but these technologies do not seem to be suitable for real-time weather stations because they have such limited message bandwidth - fine if you need updates for a few parameters every 10-15 minutes, but not eg real-time wind or rain.

Quote
Indeed a VP3 might be completely different. Would be very sad.

Sorry, I shouldn't have mentioned VP3! No sign of one happening at present.
Prodata Weather Systems
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Littleport, Ely, Cambs UK

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Offline Jorginho

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Re: portal allMETEO changes and software
« Reply #7 on: September 02, 2020, 12:03:34 PM »
1) As compared to 2005..There are the options you mentioned nowadays.

2) They keep on building on the Vp2. I think that basic design was very good so it is pretty cheap not having to develop something very new for such a long time. Nothing has eclipsed these stations all things considered I feel.

At least in theory there is a gap that could be filled though by a competitor or nby Davis itself. I feel these things are nice to have and in some cases needed:
1) More accurate pluviometer, more hassle free. Higher accuracy and a better resiolution (0,1 mm).
2) A much better anemometer with 0,1 m/s resolution and lower startup speed
3) Better thermohygrosensor that reches 100% and has no wetbias (these things are reported)
4) Adding more thermometers without having to resort to 0,5 C resolution (or is this solved)?
5) cloud sensor/snowdepth sensor/lightningsensor/aurorosensor may be...?
6) Try to measure according to WMO standard at least when it comes to methodology (windspeed is the average over 3 seconds for instance, temperature is the 1 minute average of I think 5 intervalls of 12 seconds (or is it 12 intervals of 5 seconds)?

Things like that.


Offline johnd

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Re: portal allMETEO changes and software
« Reply #8 on: September 02, 2020, 12:29:39 PM »
@jorgino: Ah, you're talking about the VP2 design - I thought you were commenting on the wireless protocol. Also, I'm conscious that this is the Barani forum - we can talk about Davis in more detail elsewhere. But just to round out this particular topic:

First, and importantly, you always have to bear in mind station price; you can always have a higher specification for a higher price. A wireless VP2 in the US (with no sales tax, shipping or local support costs) is under $500 and in Europe with taxes etc maybe 700. So that is the benchmark for the station itself. Add maybe $200/ for data logging etc.

1. Rain gauge: The new VP2 tipping spoon seems well received and widely reported to have good accuracy. I'm not sure why you would want 0.1mm resolution. 0.2mm is an international standard and many locations have at least 50mm/month rainfall. So 1 tip is 0.4% of that rainfall. I think even if had 0.1mm that it would not register a 0.1mm rain shower because of funnel wetting.

2. Anemometer: The VP2 model is around 0.5m/s resolution and starts up at around 1m/s. Again I'm not really sure in pure practical terms why you would want more. Most users are concerned with high wind speeds, not low wind speeds. And of course there is the Davis (LCJ) ultrasonic anemometer if you want a slightly better specification.

3. T/H sensor: Reports of the Davis SHT31 vary. Most users seem happy with it. If there were a way to get consistently better performance (100%) then I'm sure that it would be welcome. But show me another station in the $500-1000 range that reliably does offer better performance in a well-documented trial.

4. All Davis supplementary temp transmitters do transmit to 0.1F resolution. The VP2 console can only receive to 1F resolution but Weatherlink Live receives the full 0.1F data. So that issue is effectively solved.

5. High quality sensors for cloud height, snow depth, visibility etc cannot be added to any station that I know of in this price range - the cost of good sensors is just too high. That said, there are eg depth sensors available in the Davis Enviromonitor range.

6. I think Davis broadly complies with WMO standards already for most measurements, eg the gust is every 2.5 secs or thereabouts (depending on wireless channel).

Not trying to make the case for or against Davis or Barani or anything else, but just setting out the baseline price/performance for a Davis station.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2020, 01:04:43 PM by johnd »
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Offline Jorginho

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Re: portal allMETEO changes and software
« Reply #9 on: September 02, 2020, 01:15:25 PM »
@jorgino: Ah, you're talking about the VP2 design - I thought you were commenting on the wireless protocol. Also, I'm conscious that this is the Barani forum - we can talk about Davis in more detail elsewhere. But just to round out this particular topic:

First, and importantly, you always have to bear in mind station price; you can always have a higher specification for a higher price. A wireless VP2 in the US (with no sales tax, shipping or local support costs) is under $500 and in Europe with taxes etc maybe 700. So that is the benchmark for the station itself. Add maybe $200/ for data logging etc.

1. Rain gauge: The new VP2 tipping spoon seems well received and widely reported to have good accuracy. I'm not sure why you would want 0.1mm resolution. 0.2mm is an international standard and many locations have at least 50mm/month rainfall. So 1 tip is 0.4% of that rainfall. I think even if had 0.1mm that it would not register a 0.1mm rain shower because of funnel wetting.

2. Anemometer: The VP2 model is around 0.5m/s resolution and starts up at around 1m/s. Again I'm not really sure in pure practical terms why you would want more. Most users are concerned with high wind speeds, not low wind speeds. And of course there is the Davis (LCJ) ultrasonic anemometer if you want a slightly better specification.

3. T/H sensor: Reports of the Davis SHT31 vary. Most users seem happy with it. If there were a way to get consistently better performance (100%) then I'm sure that it would be welcome. But show me another station in the $500-1000 range that reliably does offer better performance in a well-documented trial.

4. All Davis supplementary temp transmitters do transmit to 0.1F resolution. The VP2 console can only receive to 1F resolution but Weatherlink Live receives the full 0.1F data. So that issue is effectively solved.

5. High quality sensors for cloud height, snow depth, visibility etc cannot be added to and station that I know of in this price range - the cost of good sensors is just too high. That said, there are eg depth sensors available in the Davis Enviromonitor range.

6. I think Davis broadly complies with WMO standards already for most measurements, eg the gust is every 2.5 secs or thereabouts (depending on wireless channel).

Not trying to make the case for or against Davis or Barani or anything else, but just setting out the baseline price/performance for a Davis station.

Haha...about this being the Barani side of the site: I was thinking of writing the same to you if you were to go in depth about Davis...Indeed this is the Barani side of the forum, but otoh barani seems to be reading this so may be he finds our tips useful...

1) new tipping spoon: I read inconsistent stories. One of my friends owns a Davis VP2 too and he did not note a lot of differences. The main problem seems to be when the winds pick up where the Hellmann pluvio reads much more than the Davis. If correct, the tipping spoon won't change it I guess. 0,1 mm is the Dutch standard. So than to me this would be nice. we get a lot more than 50 mm rain/month btw. The Barani btw gets you 0,1 mm if you want and is noted to be accurate.

2) I also have a Peet Bros 2100 (but no longer in use due to the wires....sadly). The aneometer is a lot more accurate and moves in breezes where Davis (not just one) is stuck. Barani iseems even better. Low windspeeds to me are very important because in cold winter nights with snow and bright sies the temp sometimes jumps. A little wind is a good reason why this is happened so when there is slight wind and I see the mercury is not moving down, I know why.

3) Good point. We have the SHt35 which I think which in theory is better. Other protocol so not suited for a Davis if i am correct. Again: here is where Barani may be does better but unsure.

4) I have no weatherlink live. I have a console and datalogger. Does the same thing apply? Thx!

5) Not cloud height, cloud cover. I have seen quite a few amateur designs which worked well. Not expensive but I can't say how this all would pan out. I am not saying that it should be professional quality. Davis has not professional quality. But good quality in line with what Davis delivers already.

6) no they don't. that is not according to WMO at all. WMO= 4 Hz for windspeed x 3 measurements/12. If I am correct. Temperature like I said. The thing is that a Peetbros 2100 ultimeter from 2009 in fact does measure according to those standards. Barani for sure does. And the Barani is in a comparable price range....

There are from at least soem angles better statiosn available so. If I could somehow get he barani working with Xbee/Zigbee or whatever and send the data directly to a receiver I would opt for it. May send the WMO data every minute or so. That would be fine. Not 10 minutes. Also  in this way they would not be hampered by the small bandwith Sigfox and others provide...I think that is why not all the data can be send to one account, but uyou need another one just for the windspeed.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2020, 01:18:37 PM by Jorginho »

Offline ashland weather

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Re: portal allMETEO changes and software
« Reply #10 on: September 04, 2020, 07:09:13 PM »
To john d  the vp2 can receive 0.1 degree f. press 2nd and units  until you get 0.1 degrees. the vue console is the same.

Offline johnd

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Re: portal allMETEO changes and software
« Reply #11 on: September 05, 2020, 05:52:59 AM »
To john d  the vp2 can receive 0.1 degree f. press 2nd and units  until you get 0.1 degrees. the vue console is the same.

No, that's not correct. Or, more specifically, it's true for ISS data of course, but not for supplementary temperature transmitters as received by standard consoles (WLL units being different, which is another benefit that WLL offers), and which you'll see was bolded in my post above at #4 in replying to Jorginho. [Sorry, OT again, I know.]
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Offline ashland weather

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Re: portal allMETEO changes and software
« Reply #12 on: September 05, 2020, 10:16:47 AM »
johnd sorry for my post. I did not see (supplementary)

Offline Daniel785

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Re: portal allMETEO changes and software
« Reply #13 on: September 06, 2020, 10:35:04 AM »
any updates regarding when the site upgrade will be complete?

Offline mauro63

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Re: portal allMETEO changes and software
« Reply #14 on: September 06, 2020, 05:09:03 PM »
any updates regarding when the site upgrade will be complete?

not Daniel yet, you can be sure that I will communicate it immediately as soon as there is news

Thanks for the question  ;)

Mauro

Offline Julius

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Re: portal allMETEO changes and software
« Reply #15 on: November 17, 2020, 06:34:26 PM »
And also LoRaWAN, SigFox (and probably NB-IoT as well) but these technologies do not seem to be suitable for real-time weather stations because they have such limited message bandwidth - fine if you need updates for a few parameters every 10-15 minutes, but not eg real-time wind or rain.
Can you show me which commercially available units with outdoor sensors stream live data, because I have not seen one. If you would want "real-time" live data non stop, you'd need a PoE wired option. I really don't get that 'real-time' need you keep mentioning in your posts; You do realize that if a sensor picks up an event sent with a LoRa signal it can be transferred to a webpage within a second? (There's no "limited message bandwidth" to speak of, honestly, it's 25 bytes per event, at the most, for weather/sensor data, that's barely noticeable in any network device..)

Besides, owners of weather stations are not going to cry when the events they see on a website happened a minimum of 1 to a maximum of 599 seconds ago. Sure, if it's half an hour ago, that would be a deal-breaker, but 10 minutes at the most is acceptable. Please consider, for example, the fact that an unventilated Stevenson screen requires a minimum of 7 minutes(!) before a sensor inside it can know the actual (outside) temperature accurately. The gain of accuracy with the speed at which the newer MeteoHelix housing matches actual temp is quite clear. Jan Barani sent us this a while ago, he wrote;
"One thing to note about the use of Stevenson screen vs MeteoShield/Helix is that even the most precise pressure sensor will only be as accurate as the air conditions inside the Stevenson screen or MeteoShield. From the testing that we have seen of the original MeteoShield from 2015 in *Intercomparison of Shelters in the RMI AWS Network* the total accuracy is much better of the PT100 in a MeteoShield. The new 2020 version of the MeteoShield (MeteoShield differences video <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Zp2TuF0Ifo>) is significantly more accurate and representative of the ambient air conditions than the original."

Offline Jorginho

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Re: portal allMETEO changes and software
« Reply #16 on: November 19, 2020, 04:46:35 AM »
1) It depends on what you define as realtime data. With a difference between 3-5 s on one hand and once every 10 minutes on the other that to me is the difference between realtime and not.
I know of loads of people who want to keep a very keen eye on some parametres on some conditions. For instance: a snowcovered night with incoming clear skies and low winds. I am glued to the screen for instance when that happens.
2) A downburst (well that is extreme) or at least severe gusts: some people are glued to the screen to watch every gust.

In short: I know of loads of such people, who want to watch every extreme that can be measured as realtime as possible.

I am not sure if they are going to cry or not, but than again I don't consider these people like crybabies in the first place if they have these wishes.

Davis provides such almost reatime data. That is at least my point.

Offline johnd

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Re: portal allMETEO changes and software
« Reply #17 on: November 19, 2020, 05:50:43 AM »
For me, the bottom line is simple: LPWAN technologies such as LoRa, SigFox, NB-IoT etc are hugely valuable services for weather monitoring, especially in agriculture (and likely to become more so). But LPWAN does not aspire to provide real-time data (by any reasonably definition). The best way of doing real-time from remote sites is MQTT across established communications technologies like broadband or cellular.
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Offline Julius

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Re: portal allMETEO changes and software
« Reply #18 on: November 24, 2020, 04:54:52 AM »
For me, the bottom line is simple: LPWAN technologies such as LoRa, SigFox, NB-IoT etc are hugely valuable services for weather monitoring, especially in agriculture (and likely to become more so). But LPWAN does not aspire to provide real-time data (by any reasonably definition). The best way of doing real-time from remote sites is MQTT across established communications technologies like broadband or cellular.
Again, explain to me which circumstance would require you to know weather/agri data in real time? I have yet to find a valid argument in favor of "real-time" (which would always still *not* be that, it will suffer from ping-pong times, latency, congestion, and it needs to be parsed on either a website or loading app, so at the very least your "real-time" would mean a 200 millisecond delay). All sensors can collect data locally with their time-stamps, and the timely transfer of that data is only relevant for forecasting and analysis. The reason forecasts can pinpoint timed events is precisely because they *include* the delays from several different data-points. This is how thunder (sound travels at a set speed) and lightning predictions work, if wind is x speed, event y is at point 1, you'll know precisely when event y will be at point 2.

Offline johnd

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Re: portal allMETEO changes and software
« Reply #19 on: November 24, 2020, 05:06:50 AM »
Again, explain to me which circumstance would require you to know weather/agri data in real time?

Just FTAOD it's not me making any argument for genuine real-time data - I agree that in the agriculture world especially (but in many other applications too), non-real-time is fine and LPWAN is an excellent fit to that requirement. But there are many hobbyists who love the idea of remote real-time idea and the faster the updates the better. So it's not so much that they (hobbyists) need real-time data, but some of them at least certainly do want it. And the customer is always right  :-)
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Offline Julius

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Re: portal allMETEO changes and software
« Reply #20 on: November 24, 2020, 05:14:45 AM »
Davis provides such almost reatime data. That is at least my point.
That's actually not true. Davis transfers only a select portion of (passed measured) sensor data every few seconds.
"The Vantage Pro2, Vantage VUE, and Vantage Pro consoles use the "10-minute average wind speed" to determine wind chill, which is updated once per minute. When 10-minute of wind speed data is unavailable, it uses a running average until 10-minutes worth of data is collected. The WeatherLink software uses the 10-minute average wind speed also."
"rain rate data is sent with a nominal interval of 10 to 12 seconds. Every time a rain tip or click occurs, a new rain rate value is computed (from the timer values) and the rate timers are reset to zero
"

Either way, the point is that the meteohelix sensor data is measured, stored and collected real-time, and the delay by which you can see its data depends on the moment of transfer. It can be 1 second later, but it can be 599 seconds later as well.



Offline johnd

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Re: portal allMETEO changes and software
« Reply #21 on: November 24, 2020, 05:52:13 AM »
Davis provides such almost reatime data. That is at least my point.
That's actually not true. Davis transfers only a select portion of (passed measured) sensor data every few seconds.

TBH I think this is a debate about nothing much. You have to define the time domain for each weather parameter of interest.

The only parameter that changes on a timescale of a few seconds is wind speed (and direction). You can debate what time period speed should be measured over, but these days a gust tends to be defined officially with a duration of 2-3 seconds, which is exactly what Davis measures and makes available to loggers etc. If you want genuinely live wind speeds (and I'm not saying I do, at least not remotely, but if...) then this does the job.

A rainfall update every 10 seconds is sufficient for rainfall rates up to about 72mm/hr (0.2mm) or 3.6"/hr (0.01") which is pretty intense rain.

I think you'll find that wind chill is calculated according to some official formula which uses 10 min mean wind speeds. The formula has changed over the years.
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Littleport, Ely, Cambs UK

Sorry, but I can't help with individual issues by email. Please post your issue in the relevant forum section here & I will comment there if I have anything useful to add.

 

anything