Author Topic: Any pilots out there.  (Read 780 times)

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Offline ocala

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Any pilots out there.
« on: September 20, 2019, 08:25:27 PM »
Just wondering what defines a near miss. Was on a flight from Boston to Tampa last Sunday.
At cruising altitude at 35K I notice a smaller jet coming at us in the distance. I watched it fly directly over head and could for a brief moment hear the roar of the engines as it passed. At least I thought I did. Could have been my imagination. Just guessing but I think it was about 500ft above us. There was no evasive maneuver by the jet I was on or the plane overhead. I am guessing they both knew each others position and altitude.
Just a little unnerving to see that play out.
I checked the news for any close calls but didn't see anything. Could have been just business as usual but it certainly got my attention.

Offline WheatonRon

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Re: Any pilots out there.
« Reply #1 on: September 20, 2019, 08:39:34 PM »
Just wondering what defines a near miss. Was on a flight from Boston to Tampa last Sunday.
At cruising altitude at 35K I notice a smaller jet coming at us in the distance. I watched it fly directly over head and could for a brief moment hear the roar of the engines as it passed. At least I thought I did. Could have been my imagination. Just guessing but I think it was about 500ft above us. There was no evasive maneuver by the jet I was on or the plane overhead. I am guessing they both knew each others position and altitude.
Just a little unnerving to see that play out.
I checked the news for any close calls but didn't see anything. Could have been just business as usual but it certainly got my attention.

Per a search I just did in Google, the minimum vertical distance between aircraft is 1,000 feet, with some exceptions.
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Offline DaleReid

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Re: Any pilots out there.
« Reply #2 on: September 20, 2019, 08:56:16 PM »
I try to get a window seat and watch constantly for aircraft along side (on landings) or closing and passing under or over us.  I've seen a few.

The planes are at least 500' apart, and under Visual Flight Rules are 1000'.

They are bigger in that viewing that you'd think for them being only a few hundred feet apart.  The pilots are supposed to be alerted by air traffic control when a plane is 3 or 5 miles away, and with the new system of radios listening to other aircraft transponders (with more information than altitude) to alert when someone with an approved, operating TCAS system gets within about 2 miles and a warning within 850' of the altitude you are at and begins to notify when a plane is within about 3.5 miles.

Fun to watch, a bit alarming when someone who isn't used to the precision sees a plane coming towards them with contrail and no apparent alarm on the part of your plane's pilots.

I've been in a commercial jet landing at Atlanta and we flew in 'formation' with another plane landing on a parallel runway for 5 minutes or so.  Very cool.  Recently on our way into Chicago OHare another jet came in from about 90, intercepted the guidance to another parallel runway and flew below us to the side for most of the approach and then we sort of caught up and both landed almost in synchrony. 
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Offline chief-david

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Re: Any pilots out there.
« Reply #3 on: September 20, 2019, 09:14:07 PM »
can you rerun that flight on flightaware and find other planes?
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Offline CW2274

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Re: Any pilots out there.
« Reply #4 on: September 20, 2019, 09:16:37 PM »
Just guessing but I think it was about 500ft above us.
No sir. At your altitude positive separation is required by ATC (anything above 18,000 for that matter (FL180), 1000' vertical separation is mandatory, and 5 miles laterally. Use to be 2000' 15 or so years ago above 29,000' (FL290), but now 1000'.  TCAS also made each aircraft aware of the other besides ATC through transponders.

Offline CW2274

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Re: Any pilots out there.
« Reply #5 on: September 20, 2019, 09:27:33 PM »
The planes are at least 500' apart, and under Visual Flight Rules are 1000'.

I've been in a commercial jet landing at Atlanta and we flew in 'formation' with another plane landing on a parallel runway for 5 minutes or so. 
Also incorrect. Standard separation in terminal air space for IFR aircraft is 1000' vertical and 3 miles laterally. VFR is "see and be seen" unless you're in Class B airspace, then vertical separation is applied, and that's only with another IFR aircraft.

The reason you were able to fly "formation" was because ATC had one or both aircraft see one or the other and "visual separation" was applied. Happens thousands of times every day.

Offline chief-david

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Re: Any pilots out there.
« Reply #6 on: September 20, 2019, 09:39:06 PM »
There is a pilot on the Chiefs forum...do you want me to send him more info?
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Offline CW2274

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Re: Any pilots out there.
« Reply #7 on: September 20, 2019, 09:55:17 PM »
There is a pilot on the Chiefs forum...do you want me to send him more info?
Why? I spent 30 years as an air-traffic controller. Pilots fly airplanes, ATC separates them, and not just from themselves, but from terrain as well.

Offline arrowspace90

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Re: Any pilots out there.
« Reply #8 on: September 20, 2019, 10:00:54 PM »
1000 feet separation can look closer if you don't really know what the rules are.
Also, with GPS and jets going opposite directions on the same airway, or at an airway intersection, they can pass directly overhead.

Offline WheatonRon

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Re: Any pilots out there.
« Reply #9 on: September 20, 2019, 10:01:42 PM »
There is a pilot on the Chiefs forum...do you want me to send him more info?
Why? I spent 30 years as an air-traffic controller. Pilots fly airplanes, ATC separates them, and not just from themselves, but from terrain as well.

And then CW2274 answers questions in this Forum regarding the flakiness of the SHT31 and the Davis rain tipper inaccuracies and how to solve them. Ok, I am exaggerating his Davis skill sets a bit here. In short, the hobbyists and retired professionals that add so much value to this Forum is truly amazing.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2019, 10:05:48 PM by WheatonRon »
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Offline chief-david

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Re: Any pilots out there.
« Reply #10 on: September 20, 2019, 10:04:20 PM »
There is a pilot on the Chiefs forum...do you want me to send him more info?
Why? I spent 30 years as an air-traffic controller. Pilots fly airplanes, ATC separates them, and not just from themselves, but from terrain as well.

OK-didn't remember....and 2 large jack and cokes.
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Offline CW2274

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Re: Any pilots out there.
« Reply #11 on: September 20, 2019, 10:13:20 PM »
1000 feet separation can look closer if you don't really know what the rules are.
Also, with GPS and jets going opposite directions on the same airway, or at an airway intersection, they can pass directly overhead.
You kiddin' me? I once of many times was flying in the jump seat and we were in holding over a holding fix outside ATL (1000' vertical separation as always) due to T-storms and an L-1011 came directly overhead, opposite direction straight into the windshield, and scared the livin' crap outta me.

Offline CW2274

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Re: Any pilots out there.
« Reply #12 on: September 20, 2019, 10:15:12 PM »
There is a pilot on the Chiefs forum...do you want me to send him more info?
Why? I spent 30 years as an air-traffic controller. Pilots fly airplanes, ATC separates them, and not just from themselves, but from terrain as well.
2 large jack and cokes.
Oh...had a few of those in the Navy... UU

Offline davidmc36

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Re: Any pilots out there.
« Reply #13 on: September 21, 2019, 04:33:04 AM »
I'm sure you could easily hear the other plane a bit at 1K ft separation.

Offline ocala

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Re: Any pilots out there.
« Reply #14 on: September 21, 2019, 05:54:59 AM »
can you rerun that flight on flightaware and find other planes?
I have FR24 but as far as I can tell I can only go back and the see flight path of the jet I was on. Is that possible with Flightaware? Would really like to know how close that plane was.
I wanted to ask the pilots about it as  we were deboarding but I had my daughter with me and she isn't real crazy about flying so I didn't want to say anything.

Offline ocala

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Re: Any pilots out there.
« Reply #15 on: September 21, 2019, 07:41:50 AM »
Found a site called planefinder that has animated historical tracks. Followed that flight path from beginning to end and the plane in question didn't show up. There was one that was close. An Air Canada flew over us at 35050ft. We were at 34000. The plane I saw was bigger then a Lear Jet but smaller then a commercial airliner so I don't think that was it. The Air Canada was an A319. I know some jets flight paths aren't available for whatever reason, security or other.
Guess this will remain a mystery as to how close it was.

Offline chief-david

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Re: Any pilots out there.
« Reply #16 on: September 21, 2019, 08:21:04 AM »
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Offline DaleReid

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Re: Any pilots out there.
« Reply #17 on: September 21, 2019, 09:14:42 AM »
As to hearing the other plane, I would point out that the rush of air over the fuselage at 500 mph is so noisy that I cannot hear if a family member is behind me talking with me.  If you've been in a plane during a thunderstorm I've never heard thunder, even if the strike is close and in front of us.  Finally, if you are two or three to take off and the plane ahead of you is a few hundred feet away and is at full power for take off and blasting it's exhaust towards to as it begins it's roll, and while there is no rushing of air over the cabin, you can feel and hear (slightly) a rumbling maybe, but the usual jet noise of being outside and having a jet taxi is almost non-existant.  I'm not saying you didn't hear something, but in other situations with being in a cabin, the attenuation of noise is great and I'm thinking you heard something other than the jet.  Different story at an airshow being in the open, on the ground, with military guys and gals trying to make a lot of noise with aircraft with little noise abatement laws about their engines.

I haven't seen it lately but one of the big newspapers has a section called ask the captain or something like that, and if I see it again, there is usually a section to write in.  I'll ask how close other planes are when they cross at minimum, and also about hearing another plane.

Interesting question that I've not given thought to before, but don't think you can hear it, nor for more than a few milliseconds at best at those crossing speeds and open air.

Dale
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Offline ocala

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Re: Any pilots out there.
« Reply #18 on: September 21, 2019, 10:29:47 AM »
As to hearing the other plane, I would point out that the rush of air over the fuselage at 500 mph is so noisy that I cannot hear if a family member is behind me talking with me.  If you've been in a plane during a thunderstorm I've never heard thunder, even if the strike is close and in front of us.  Finally, if you are two or three to take off and the plane ahead of you is a few hundred feet away and is at full power for take off and blasting it's exhaust towards to as it begins it's roll, and while there is no rushing of air over the cabin, you can feel and hear (slightly) a rumbling maybe, but the usual jet noise of being outside and having a jet taxi is almost non-existant.  I'm not saying you didn't hear something, but in other situations with being in a cabin, the attenuation of noise is great and I'm thinking you heard something other than the jet.  Different story at an airshow being in the open, on the ground, with military guys and gals trying to make a lot of noise with aircraft with little noise abatement laws about their engines.

I haven't seen it lately but one of the big newspapers has a section called ask the captain or something like that, and if I see it again, there is usually a section to write in.  I'll ask how close other planes are when they cross at minimum, and also about hearing another plane.

Interesting question that I've not given thought to before, but don't think you can hear it, nor for more than a few milliseconds at best at those crossing speeds and open air.

Dale
What I thought I heard was a very quick "WHOOSH". Passing by each other at 500 mph  it was very brief.

Offline arrowspace90

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Re: Any pilots out there.
« Reply #19 on: September 21, 2019, 10:49:22 AM »
No you wouldn’t hear another jet passing by 1000 feet above.

Offline CW2274

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Re: Any pilots out there.
« Reply #20 on: September 21, 2019, 04:21:57 PM »
I haven't seen it lately but one of the big newspapers has a section called ask the captain or something like that, and if I see it again, there is usually a section to write in.  I'll ask how close other planes are when they cross at minimum,
Coulda sworn I already answered that...... :?

Offline CW2274

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Re: Any pilots out there.
« Reply #21 on: September 21, 2019, 04:30:47 PM »

Guess this will remain a mystery as to how close it was.
If your two flights were BELOW basic separation minima, the TCAS would have alerted the flight crew and an evasive maneuver would have been felt as they MUST follow TCAS instructions. Did you feel an evasive maneuver? If not, you were separated LEGALLY by 1000' vertically. This is not debatable.

Offline galfert

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Re: Any pilots out there.
« Reply #22 on: September 21, 2019, 04:58:30 PM »
Looks like we aren't getting anywhere on this. In this thread we have 3 people saying....

a retired ATC saying you'd feel evasive maneuver if closer than 1000 ft.
a retired commercial pilot saying you would not hear the other plane at 1000 ft away.
and the OP saying they heard it and no evasive maneuver occurred.

Doesn't add up.
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Offline CW2274

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Re: Any pilots out there.
« Reply #23 on: September 21, 2019, 05:10:39 PM »
Looks like we aren't getting anywhere on this. In this thread we have 3 people saying....

A  a retired ATC saying you'd feel evasive maneuver if closer than 1000 ft
 
B  you would not hear the other plane at 1000 ft away.
 
C  and the OP saying they heard it

Doesn't add up.
A, true.
B, true.
C, As the OP himself stated, "Could have been my imagination". I think this is also true.

Offline CW2274

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Re: Any pilots out there.
« Reply #24 on: September 21, 2019, 05:22:47 PM »

 

anything