Author Topic: Barani MS Pro vs SmartCellino radiation shield comparison  (Read 146418 times)

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Offline Jasper3012

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Re: Barani MS Pro vs SmartCellino radiation shield comparison
« Reply #275 on: October 29, 2024, 03:52:36 PM »
Data from today until recently

In the black circles, around 2 o'clock in the night, I think we can assume that the sensor without filter was "hit" by a breath of dry SSW wind that has monentaneamente made raise the temperature and reduce humidity.

After a night with 99% humidity in the orange circles, you can see that the sensor of the Siap, inside its filter, remained wet for longer than the other two and especially the sensor without filter which obviously "dried" first.
As the radiation and also the wind grew, the sensors were progressively aligned

Hmm, so that 0.6C difference around 9 AM likely wasn't an error in the Barani, but rather a faster response to reducing humidity and therefore less wet bulb effect?

Offline Kallo78

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Re: Barani MS Pro vs SmartCellino radiation shield comparison
« Reply #276 on: October 29, 2024, 03:59:44 PM »
Data from today until recently

In the black circles, around 2 o'clock in the night, I think we can assume that the sensor without filter was "hit" by a breath of dry SSW wind that has monentaneamente made raise the temperature and reduce humidity.

After a night with 99% humidity in the orange circles, you can see that the sensor of the Siap, inside its filter, remained wet for longer than the other two and especially the sensor without filter which obviously "dried" first.
As the radiation and also the wind grew, the sensors were progressively aligned

Hmm, so that 0.6C difference around 9 AM likely wasn't an error in the Barani, but rather a faster response to reducing humidity and therefore less wet bulb effect?

In my opinion yes, but we are in the field of hypothesis and I am a beginner

Offline mauro63

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Re: Barani MS Pro vs SmartCellino radiation shield comparison
« Reply #277 on: October 29, 2024, 04:01:38 PM »
Data from today until recently

In the black circles, around 2 o'clock in the night, I think we can assume that the sensor without filter was "hit" by a breath of dry SSW wind that has monentaneamente made raise the temperature and reduce humidity.

After a night with 99% humidity in the orange circles, you can see that the sensor of the Siap, inside its filter, remained wet for longer than the other two and especially the sensor without filter which obviously "dried" first.
As the radiation and also the wind grew, the sensors were progressively aligned

Hmm, so that 0.6C difference around 9 AM likely wasn't an error in the Barani, but rather a faster response to reducing humidity and therefore less wet bulb effect?

I think it is an aspect to be verified more thoroughly, it could be an overcooling but also an overheating of the pro since it occurs in conditions of low sun and in open field and with rapidly increasing radiation

we will wait to see if it happens again and in which specific situation

M.

Offline Kallo78

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Re: Barani MS Pro vs SmartCellino radiation shield comparison
« Reply #278 on: October 29, 2024, 05:24:18 PM »
This is the report for day 24
The time is different and the radiation is going down. humidity is very high for all screens and starts to fall when the wind arrives. The answers are different but in my opinion, in the same direction as assumed before

Offline Jasper3012

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Re: Barani MS Pro vs SmartCellino radiation shield comparison
« Reply #279 on: October 29, 2024, 05:30:16 PM »
Data from today until recently

In the black circles, around 2 o'clock in the night, I think we can assume that the sensor without filter was "hit" by a breath of dry SSW wind that has monentaneamente made raise the temperature and reduce humidity.

After a night with 99% humidity in the orange circles, you can see that the sensor of the Siap, inside its filter, remained wet for longer than the other two and especially the sensor without filter which obviously "dried" first.
As the radiation and also the wind grew, the sensors were progressively aligned

Hmm, so that 0.6C difference around 9 AM likely wasn't an error in the Barani, but rather a faster response to reducing humidity and therefore less wet bulb effect?

I think it is an aspect to be verified more thoroughly, it could be an overcooling but also an overheating of the pro since it occurs in conditions of low sun and in open field and with rapidly increasing radiation

we will wait to see if it happens again and in which specific situation

M.

@tobyportugal brought up the influence of humidity some time ago and he might be onto something, namely if the "drying" time of the sensor varies between shields, then that may cause a significant (albeit temporary) difference in temperature. On the other hand, imo, the low sun angle thing with the MS Pro definitely isn't only due to this effect, as I've experienced the same effect at ~70% RH.

Offline mauro63

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Re: Barani MS Pro vs SmartCellino radiation shield comparison
« Reply #280 on: October 29, 2024, 05:40:11 PM »
Data from today until recently

In the black circles, around 2 o'clock in the night, I think we can assume that the sensor without filter was "hit" by a breath of dry SSW wind that has monentaneamente made raise the temperature and reduce humidity.

After a night with 99% humidity in the orange circles, you can see that the sensor of the Siap, inside its filter, remained wet for longer than the other two and especially the sensor without filter which obviously "dried" first.
As the radiation and also the wind grew, the sensors were progressively aligned

Hmm, so that 0.6C difference around 9 AM likely wasn't an error in the Barani, but rather a faster response to reducing humidity and therefore less wet bulb effect?

I think it is an aspect to be verified more thoroughly, it could be an overcooling but also an overheating of the pro since it occurs in conditions of low sun and in open field and with rapidly increasing radiation

we will wait to see if it happens again and in which specific situation

M.

@tobyportugal brought up the influence of humidity some time ago and he might be onto something, namely if the "drying" time of the sensor varies between shields, then that may cause a significant (albeit temporary) difference in temperature. On the other hand, imo, the low sun angle thing with the MS Pro definitely isn't only due to this effect, as I've experienced the same effect at ~70% RH.

Absolutely yes, in conditions of air close to saturation, inevitably, the sensors get "wet" and they do it differently, the consequence is that the sensors will tend to measure a temperature close to that of the wet bulb, this until they are dry.
Ventilation, in those moments, takes on great importance, the greater it is, the greater the wet-bulb effect will be

M.

Offline Jasper3012

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Re: Barani MS Pro vs SmartCellino radiation shield comparison
« Reply #281 on: October 29, 2024, 05:43:41 PM »
Another possible explanation for the MS Pro drying up more quickly during low angle sun in the morning (and therefore warming faster) is simply an insufficient protection from solar radiation, heating and drying the sensor chamber more significantly than other shields and therefore seeing faster warming. That would in fact be a negative for the MS Pro, whereas the theory about better airfow would obviously be a positive. Very difficult to judge.

Offline Jasper3012

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Re: Barani MS Pro vs SmartCellino radiation shield comparison
« Reply #282 on: October 29, 2024, 05:47:51 PM »
I'm pretty sure the theory about better airflow causing faster warming is incorrect though. The Davis FARS obviously had better airflow into the sensor chamber than the Barani during light winds in the morning and yet it would often rise more slowly than the Barani, which is the total opposite of what this theory would suggest. Barani themselves have also admitted in the past that the MS Pro (especially the gen 2) still allowed a bit too much sunlight into the sensor chamber during low angle sun. I suspect it might be this solar radiation that can, under certain circumstances, cause significant errors in the MS Pro.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2024, 05:50:44 PM by Jasper3012 »

Offline mauro63

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Re: Barani MS Pro vs SmartCellino radiation shield comparison
« Reply #283 on: October 29, 2024, 05:55:42 PM »
Another possible explanation for the MS Pro drying up more quickly during low angle sun in the morning (and therefore warming faster) is simply an insufficient protection from solar radiation, heating and drying the sensor chamber more significantly than other shields and therefore seeing faster warming. That would in fact be a negative for the MS Pro, whereas the theory about better airfow would obviously be a positive. Very difficult to judge.

The last part of your message contains the great truth of this fascinating subject.
From whatever angle we observe these differences, we can only hypothesize the reasons, the lack of knowledge of the real measurand  imposes humility and respect.

It is true that there are many reported episodes that suggest a problem with the Barani in the management of low-angle lateral sun radiation, and low angle does not mean low intensity, this aspect is real and there are many reports on the matter that would suggest it is real

The discussion regarding overcooling is much, much more difficult, here we are no longer talking about management of incident or reflected radiation, and it becomes extremely difficult to make an assessment with the modest means at our disposal.

Certainly, the Barani is, fundamentally, an "open" screen, this puts it in a position to make the most of natural ventilation, if present, but it also puts it in difficulty in other conditions

M.

Offline mauro63

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Re: Barani MS Pro vs SmartCellino radiation shield comparison
« Reply #284 on: October 30, 2024, 03:50:44 AM »
Yesterday data

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M.

Offline mauro63

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Re: Barani MS Pro vs SmartCellino radiation shield comparison
« Reply #285 on: October 30, 2024, 05:12:59 AM »
I would like to know if it could be interesting to add to my data also those that I detect in the Stevenson screen by Metspec

I'll post an example from yesterday, if you think it could be annoying to read I'll remove it from the next reports

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M.

Offline Kallo78

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Re: Barani MS Pro vs SmartCellino radiation shield comparison
« Reply #286 on: October 30, 2024, 04:20:29 PM »
My report of yesterday

Offline Kallo78

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Re: Barani MS Pro vs SmartCellino radiation shield comparison
« Reply #287 on: October 31, 2024, 05:43:27 AM »
My report of yesterday

Offline mauro63

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Re: Barani MS Pro vs SmartCellino radiation shield comparison
« Reply #288 on: October 31, 2024, 10:29:26 AM »
Mine, yesterday

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M.

Offline Dvalente75

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Re: Barani MS Pro vs SmartCellino radiation shield comparison
« Reply #289 on: October 31, 2024, 10:40:22 AM »
My report yesterday

Offline Jasper3012

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Re: Barani MS Pro vs SmartCellino radiation shield comparison
« Reply #290 on: October 31, 2024, 12:48:56 PM »
I'm considering swapping out the Barani MS Pro with the Davis FARS. There are a lot of excellent tests already running here with the Barani vs SC and I seem to be finding pretty much the exact same thing, so I'm not sure I have much added value with my comparison. Davis FARS vs SmartCellino would be a comparison no one is currently doing, as far as I'm aware. Of course, in the ideal scenario, I have 3 temp sensors and I can put all 3 shields to the test at the same time but I don't have that yet. I'm hoping to get a third sensor before the end of the year.

Offline Meteorology fan

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Re: Barani MS Pro vs SmartCellino radiation shield comparison
« Reply #291 on: October 31, 2024, 01:50:19 PM »
A good idea, but it's worth thinking about a steady supply of Davis FARS24H. I am starting in the days to compare Davis FARS 24, Apogee TS100, Barani Meteoshield Pro III and plan to redesign the whole mast.
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Offline mauro63

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Re: Barani MS Pro vs SmartCellino radiation shield comparison
« Reply #292 on: October 31, 2024, 01:51:06 PM »
I'm considering swapping out the Barani MS Pro with the Davis FARS. There are a lot of excellent tests already running here with the Barani vs SC and I seem to be finding pretty much the exact same thing, so I'm not sure I have much added value with my comparison. Davis FARS vs SmartCellino would be a comparison no one is currently doing, as far as I'm aware. Of course, in the ideal scenario, I have 3 temp sensors and I can put all 3 shields to the test at the same time but I don't have that yet. I'm hoping to get a third sensor before the end of the year.

I can only agree, certainly the 3-sensor solution would allow the Pro to be kept in the tests, but I understand that it involves a greater commitment, both in terms of work and economic and the choice can only be personal.

Thanks
M.

Offline Jasper3012

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Re: Barani MS Pro vs SmartCellino radiation shield comparison
« Reply #293 on: October 31, 2024, 04:19:29 PM »
I'm considering swapping out the Barani MS Pro with the Davis FARS. There are a lot of excellent tests already running here with the Barani vs SC and I seem to be finding pretty much the exact same thing, so I'm not sure I have much added value with my comparison. Davis FARS vs SmartCellino would be a comparison no one is currently doing, as far as I'm aware. Of course, in the ideal scenario, I have 3 temp sensors and I can put all 3 shields to the test at the same time but I don't have that yet. I'm hoping to get a third sensor before the end of the year.

I can only agree, certainly the 3-sensor solution would allow the Pro to be kept in the tests, but I understand that it involves a greater commitment, both in terms of work and economic and the choice can only be personal.

Thanks
M.

The cost for it isn't the issue, it's just that the person that can equip me with the sensor isn't really available at the moment.

Offline hmderek

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Re: Barani MS Pro vs SmartCellino radiation shield comparison
« Reply #294 on: October 31, 2024, 04:25:36 PM »
I'm considering swapping out the Barani MS Pro with the Davis FARS. There are a lot of excellent tests already running here with the Barani vs SC and I seem to be finding pretty much the exact same thing, so I'm not sure I have much added value with my comparison. Davis FARS vs SmartCellino would be a comparison no one is currently doing, as far as I'm aware. Of course, in the ideal scenario, I have 3 temp sensors and I can put all 3 shields to the test at the same time but I don't have that yet. I'm hoping to get a third sensor before the end of the year.

Tbh I'd love to hear from your experiences in comparing the Barani and SC during the coming winter months. Rather that than going for a passive vs active comparison, which really isn't a comparison that will yield a result other than "they behave very differently" is my guess. Having the 3 next to other would be ideal.
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Offline mauro63

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Re: Barani MS Pro vs SmartCellino radiation shield comparison
« Reply #295 on: October 31, 2024, 04:36:10 PM »
I'm considering swapping out the Barani MS Pro with the Davis FARS. There are a lot of excellent tests already running here with the Barani vs SC and I seem to be finding pretty much the exact same thing, so I'm not sure I have much added value with my comparison. Davis FARS vs SmartCellino would be a comparison no one is currently doing, as far as I'm aware. Of course, in the ideal scenario, I have 3 temp sensors and I can put all 3 shields to the test at the same time but I don't have that yet. I'm hoping to get a third sensor before the end of the year.

Tbh I'd love to hear from your experiences in comparing the Barani and SC during the coming winter months. Rather that than going for a passive vs active comparison, which really isn't a comparison that will yield a result other than "they behave very differently" is my guess. Having the 3 next to other would be ideal.

I agree and, above all, it would be very interesting to make a comparison in conditions of high albedo, unfortunately, in Italy, we cannot do it, I hope that other users can evaluate this very important aspect

M.

Offline Jasper3012

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Re: Barani MS Pro vs SmartCellino radiation shield comparison
« Reply #296 on: October 31, 2024, 07:00:38 PM »
I'll probably keep the Barani vs the SC then and only put the Davis there when I get the third sensor. Chances are that the Davis is going to start spinning down over the next few weeks anyway, as darkness is still increasing and its battery likely won't get charged enough.

Offline Kallo78

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Re: Barani MS Pro vs SmartCellino radiation shield comparison
« Reply #297 on: November 01, 2024, 03:28:01 AM »
Report of Yesterday
« Last Edit: November 01, 2024, 04:42:29 AM by Kallo78 »

Offline mauro63

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Re: Barani MS Pro vs SmartCellino radiation shield comparison
« Reply #298 on: November 01, 2024, 04:29:08 AM »
Mine yesterday data


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M.

Offline Jasper3012

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Re: Barani MS Pro vs SmartCellino radiation shield comparison
« Reply #299 on: November 01, 2024, 09:17:34 AM »
Going to start posting daily graphs aswell. A graph of the actual temp (green = Barani, brown = SC) and the difference between the shields (Barani minus SC, so red = Barani warmer).

Yesterday:

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anything