Author Topic: Schematics for Red E-Field Pre-Amplifier  (Read 424 times)

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Offline Silversword

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Schematics for Red E-Field Pre-Amplifier
« on: January 06, 2022, 05:24:22 PM »
Hi All,

Happy New Year for a better one.

During the past few rain storms here. it seems the my red E-field pre-amplifier got damp and it seems that the trace on the board got damaged.

Does, anyone have a schematic for the pre-amp so I can jumper the damaged trace on the board and hope that the components are still good? There was some corrosion around the coax connector as well. Hope that this connector is also still okay.

Thanks for any suggestions or input for this issue.

If the board is really bad might ask if anyone has a spare pre-amp that they might not be using and would like to depart with it, let me know for arrangements.

Aloha,

--Stan Y.
  Maui, Hawaii


 
Stan Y. - KH6HHG - Maui, Hawaii --- Blitzortung ID: 993 --- FlightRadar24 ID: F-PHOG1
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Offline Cutty Sark Sailor

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Re: Schematics for Red E-Field Pre-Amplifier
« Reply #1 on: January 06, 2022, 06:34:33 PM »
Hey Lonesome Stan!
Bad Luck :cry:
https://frankfortweather.us/blitzblitz/Red%20E.pdf

If that F connector is corroded, best replace it... it's integral to the impedence and filter assy for E signals, and carries the supply voltage also.
(I have swapped E preamps back and forth between Reds and Blues, so if can't get joy on a RED, maybe somebody has a BLUE E preamp, especially if early version.This is ONLY for the E preamp module.) Main difference between two is bandpass, and RED used the power LED as ref voltage establishment for IC1... was a special select diode series.

Stay safe and healthy!
Mike
« Last Edit: January 06, 2022, 06:44:10 PM by Cutty Sark Sailor »
 

Offline Silversword

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Re: Schematics for Red E-Field Pre-Amplifier
« Reply #2 on: January 06, 2022, 08:45:51 PM »
Hi Mike,

Thanks for the suggestion on the F-connector and see if I can find a replacement if need be.

Also thanks for the schematics for this unit and see if it can be revived.

Likewise, stay safe and healthy over there.

I don't know if am Lonesome per se, as I see three other systems in Hawaii, one on Kauai Island, one here on Haleakala and one on the Big Island of Hawaii but are run by some kind of company.  I guess I am the only individual here in the Islands. so Lonesome Me.

Aloha,

--Lonesome Stan Y.
   Maui, Hawaii
Stan Y. - KH6HHG - Maui, Hawaii --- Blitzortung ID: 993 --- FlightRadar24 ID: F-PHOG1
Weather Display 10.37s Build 120
WDL 6.05
MS Windows 7 Pro
Dell Optiplex GX280-Intel Pentium 4 CPU 3.00GHz, 4 GB RAM
Davis Vantage Pro 2+ Wireless
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Offline Silversword

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Re: Schematics for Red E-Field Pre-Amplifier
« Reply #3 on: January 23, 2022, 07:54:48 PM »
Hi Mike,

I think I got E-Field Pre-amplifier working. Now gotta figure out on where or how to adjust the H-Field and E-Field amplifiers with this Red 9.2 version.  Is there a place or someone has a current suggestions for setting the parameters?  I just wanted to update every thing again.

Thanks for all inputs or suggestions from anyone.

Aloha,

--Stan Y.
   Maui, Hawaii
Stan Y. - KH6HHG - Maui, Hawaii --- Blitzortung ID: 993 --- FlightRadar24 ID: F-PHOG1
Weather Display 10.37s Build 120
WDL 6.05
MS Windows 7 Pro
Dell Optiplex GX280-Intel Pentium 4 CPU 3.00GHz, 4 GB RAM
Davis Vantage Pro 2+ Wireless
1-Wire Lighting
Webcam: Axis 211

Offline Cutty Sark Sailor

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Re: Schematics for Red E-Field Pre-Amplifier
« Reply #4 on: January 24, 2022, 11:24:48 AM »
Stan,
Let me try this from memory, and if I goof we, or someone, can patch it up.
Hell, you know by now, I can't respond succinctly.... anyway:

H MUST connect to Amp1 
E MUST connect to Amp2 
Make sure you go to your owner's page on site and properly configure the settings so the server knows...


E field does NOT use an antenna.. it functions more or less as a Charge Probe inside the Earth / Air 'capacitor'.
E Field Probe assembly is EXTREMELY sensitive, and actually operates 'at a loss' about -4 into the amplifiers. The E analog amp chains also have a slightly lower gain factor, If I remember correctly, on system RED, and a completely different bandpass paradigm, especially compared to BLUE.
1. RED has only 2 H channels.
RED originally DID NOT have an E capability.  Added later.
2. RED has 3 E channels with E capability added.
A total of 5 potential receive channels.

Red by default has only the two H channels enabled, however.

Although this was a 'real time' updating thread, and there is some 'confusable' material still present,
here's how to configure RED to run all available channels:
https://www.wxforum.net/index.php?topic=22710.0


Each of the three ADC's in RED / BLUE both have 2 channels available, 1 a,b; 2 a,b; 3 a,b. Technically 6 receiving channels possible...(or three stereo audio channels **below).
 RED Default uses ONLY 1a, 1b.  with 1c, 2a, 2b, 2c inactive.  SO H channels A, B, were only receiver channels available.
To activate the three E channels, you must change settings in the RED controller,  as E with it's three channels, wants to use ADCs 2a, 2b, and 2c.
 
Basically, as per the above thread,
have to enable 'alternate channel mapping' in red controller (SYSTEM BLUE does that automatically)
have to 'force all channels on' in order to 'see' the 3rd ADC settings for H field... important... ( I THINK that 'force' might be modified on a later RED firmware, can't remember)...

You're going to leave 'alternate channel mapping' enabled,
1. Check (turn on) "Force all channels on" and "apply"
2 Set Amp 1, Channel C trigger to the minimum value, 1mV.
3. Apply, and then "Save Settings".
4. Un-check (turn off) "Force all channels on".
5. Apply, then "Save Settings"
Now, the Amp 2, Channel C threshold will be assured of being the value you set in the Amp 2 settings.
Actually, as stated below, recommend setting ALL CHANNEL triggers (EXCEPT HC -leave at 1mv) to 100mv, then forget you can even modify them... leave 'em be.)

H1, H2, now share ADCs with E1, E2.  since it is a digital function it's shared and the SAME for Both shared channels... E3 sorta lonsome w/no partner... see the tread above.  The analog gains remain independent.


The RED E channels have different band passes, originally thought to help with some potential 'noise' situations. See the above referenced thread.  That proved to be un-necessary, but with some electrical environments, one of  the bands may be better suited... I usually just let all three  run... what the heck..
(The above SPECIFICALLY refers to System RED... from here down, it's more or less both RED and BLUE.)

Most of our noise actually is induced in the system magnetically, in H channels... there's the rub. E  doesn't respond to magnetic, period.  H can respond to BOTH.

Basically, set ALL triggers to 100mv, (exception:RED H3 to 1mv) then NEVER change them.  Leave them there.
Do ALL your signal adjustments using the ANALOG gains, only.
NEVER run automatics, especially 'full' automatic mode.
'ignore signals below' (setting  %) is default 10% of trigger level.  You can tighten that a bit to 'send more', etc..
Gains so your average 'noise level' is <33mv, using 100mv trigger.  Period. Generally, none of the other fancy crap matters.
Later on, sure... refine and tweak... but let's get there first.

Adjust your analog gains on each specific channel so you don't trip interference very often, but most importantly, where the 'noise basement' on each channel is WELL-BELOW 50mv (assuming trigger is 100mv). BEST if your noise basement is  LESS than 33mv on a trigger of 100mv.  Ain't going into why, here...
other than to say, ' 2 send sig trig=twice noise'  '4 server accept trig=trice noise' ...heh.


 ----------------------------- only the brave should proceed further as I ramble a bit:

Blitzortung receivers all operate relative to each other.  TWO most important 'relative' baselines
are 'relative' gain on each channel, and the timing precision of the 1PPS GPS pulse.
The GPS is a 'constant' world wide... but the receiver gains are extremely variable across the world.

(COMMON relatives are:  KNOWN, standard, design delays per build / filters... server incorporates into processing.  APPROXIMATE: generic delays per 'antenna' type and size, configured on the owner's page'. )


Normalizing that 'relative' gain is done digitally, on each channel on each receiver worldwide.
The 'digital' computation is based on 'trigger' level of 100mv.  Algorithms compute the 'relative' gain
 with this 'digital' level against the channel's Analog Gain settings.

** To horribly over-simplify,  if this were a CD audio album, The entire ALBUM of tracks is All Channels from All receivers Worldwide. The Album Gain over all is based on 100mv Digital reference, which would produce an accurate 'audio' representation of the 'dynamic level changes'....   otherwise you keep reaching for the volume control...
 
So the (Audio System) 'network' wants all channels (tracks) to 'play back' with the same 'maximum' loudness, and lotsa headroom, throughout the complete (album) network... so to speak.... otherwise you spill your beer this time, reaching for the volume control when a new track starts.

NOW Each Channel in a perfect world would be an audio track, with a track gain factored on 100mv, so each track slides neatly into the 'Album Gain' baseline.  So every thing is beautiful.  Any pre-conversion ANALOG levels then are 'self relative', so to speak.... and the 'digital data is  'album related' by track.

BUT there are times when trigger level of 100mv may not seem satisfactory. Changing trigger screws up the 'relativity' on any given signal,  on when the signal will 'send' relative to the 1PPS timing.  This of course screws with the sync and TOA computations.... not to mention may differ with the references to your station's DNA chart *stored on the server.... ... So each receiver does a quick 'calculation', of 'current setting trigger level' vrs the 'analog gain' settings, and that periodically is sent as data... "relative gain".... 

You have 2 Analog Gain settings, first and second amps.  The Final amp is set at (16 ??? or 40 ??? I think some later firmware on some systems messed with that, but maybe I'm just confused)  IF you consistently run a trigger on 100mv, then your 'relative gain' for that channel will be: 
"AMP1 x AMP2 x (3rd fixed amp gain) =  Relative gain"   ....   

If your 'trigger' level is other than 100mv, the 'relative gain' will be different:
"AMP1 x AMP2 x (3rd fixed amp gain) `trig algorithm =  Relative gain"... 
NOTE: Newly Changed values MAY NOT show consistently as 'different' on your status or signal pages of the GUI... which can be confusing....

To simplify all this, I strongly recommed that everyone leave the 'trigger' levels at 100mv, (except RED H3 - see above) period.  And adjust only the 'analog' gains against 'interference' and sensitivity response desired... and NEVER run 'AUTOMATIC' modes...  ESPECIALLY when you're trying to 'normalize', or 'optimize' a new or existing station.  You don't want an 'automatic' to suddenly change what you've just set.  As for operating continuously, normally, in 'automatic', I've strong feelings against this, but then you can do as you will. Automatic Mode has simply proven to be NOT the best mode for the vast majority of stations, degrades the data, and *actually works against your station's expected performance... you can research various posts I've made that mention 'the sieve', or 'station's DNA' record.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2022, 12:02:46 PM by Cutty Sark Sailor »
 

Offline Silversword

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Re: Schematics for Red E-Field Pre-Amplifier
« Reply #5 on: January 24, 2022, 01:30:10 PM »
Thank you so much Mike. Now to see what I have going and hope to improve my system.  Being out here need to be a lot more sensitive without going into interference mode. Guess need to find the right combination between the two amplifiers and channels.

Thanks again for all.

I see that your system has changed for some reason, I can no longer log in or a place to log in?

Aloha,

--Stan Y.
   Maui, Hawaii
Stan Y. - KH6HHG - Maui, Hawaii --- Blitzortung ID: 993 --- FlightRadar24 ID: F-PHOG1
Weather Display 10.37s Build 120
WDL 6.05
MS Windows 7 Pro
Dell Optiplex GX280-Intel Pentium 4 CPU 3.00GHz, 4 GB RAM
Davis Vantage Pro 2+ Wireless
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Offline Cutty Sark Sailor

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Re: Schematics for Red E-Field Pre-Amplifier
« Reply #6 on: January 24, 2022, 02:57:47 PM »
You mean 'sferics?' .. yeah, as virtually all 'newbies' were doin' their thing on the main site, and the rest of us generally had figured out the whys and hows, etc, activity generally just petered out... The platform was going to need a massive update, and all the changes Egon was making to data collection and distribution just was beyond me, especially with my health, etc over the last couple of years... just couldn't keep up with it, so it's sort of sitting there in 'limbo' presently... I just haven't had time to 'revise' what's there, so it's basically only active to maintain the domain name.... heh...
 

Offline Silversword

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Re: Schematics for Red E-Field Pre-Amplifier
« Reply #7 on: January 24, 2022, 03:17:52 PM »
Mike, yes that is the site that you have going. Just wondered why I could not view it again. Changes is a different breed of things now a days.

Thanks for the work. Now to have my act worked on tweaking my system.

Keep safe and healthy over there.

Aloha,

--Stan Y.
   Maui, Hawaii
Stan Y. - KH6HHG - Maui, Hawaii --- Blitzortung ID: 993 --- FlightRadar24 ID: F-PHOG1
Weather Display 10.37s Build 120
WDL 6.05
MS Windows 7 Pro
Dell Optiplex GX280-Intel Pentium 4 CPU 3.00GHz, 4 GB RAM
Davis Vantage Pro 2+ Wireless
1-Wire Lighting
Webcam: Axis 211

 

anything