Author Topic: Rainfall Rate  (Read 8244 times)

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Offline JECO

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Rainfall Rate
« on: July 12, 2013, 03:50:40 PM »
I don't know how accurate my VantagePRO 2 is determining rainfall rate, but I thought 7.58 inches per hour was pretty phenomenal for a recent thunderstorm here in central Virginia. Never this significant in my seven years of operating the station.

Offline PaulMy

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Re: Rainfall Rate
« Reply #1 on: July 12, 2013, 04:10:24 PM »
It is certainly plausible.   Earlier this week I had this year's first serious thunderstorm in our area with
Quote
Highest Rain Rate 181.1 mm/hr 4:50 PM on 10 July
which is a bit over 7''

Paul


Offline BigOkie

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Re: Rainfall Rate
« Reply #2 on: July 12, 2013, 07:31:40 PM »
I've had 13.71 in/hr before.
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Offline ocala

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Re: Rainfall Rate
« Reply #3 on: July 12, 2013, 09:26:08 PM »
I've had 13.71 in/hr before.
I had something similar to that but it was a while ago.

Offline ed2kayak

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Re: Rainfall Rate
« Reply #4 on: July 12, 2013, 10:26:31 PM »
You could become a member of CoCoRaHS

http://www.cocorahs.org/

Put the rain gauge near your Davis rain bucket then compare. Mine is usually pretty close, but in very heavy rain my Davis may overrecord. Happened once this year.
Ed
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Offline Mark / Ohio

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Re: Rainfall Rate
« Reply #5 on: July 12, 2013, 11:34:39 PM »
I topped out at 9"/ hour from one storm a few days ago.  We ended up with 1.5" in about an hour from the storm.  Maybe once or twice a year I'll see that rain rate at the most.
Mark 
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Offline ocala

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Re: Rainfall Rate
« Reply #6 on: July 13, 2013, 07:11:57 AM »
You could become a member of CoCoRaHS

http://www.cocorahs.org/

Put the rain gauge near your Davis rain bucket then compare. Mine is usually pretty close, but in very heavy rain my Davis may overrecord. Happened once this year.
The Davis recorded more?

Offline ed2kayak

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Re: Rainfall Rate
« Reply #7 on: July 13, 2013, 08:34:42 AM »

The Davis recorded more?

Looking back through my June records, the Davis recorded 1.908 in, the manual CoCoRaHS recorded 1.70 on June 10. They are on opposite sides of the same post. Usually they compare well w/in 0.01 inch or so.

It rained very hard that night. I edited my records to reflect the manual amount. This was the largest difference I've noticed in 2.5 years. Perhaps it was an anomaly, but both WL & WD both recorded the higher amt
Ed
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Offline dalecoy

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Re: Rainfall Rate
« Reply #8 on: July 13, 2013, 09:48:41 AM »
You could become a member of CoCoRaHS

Does CoCoRaHS do rain rate?

Offline dalecoy

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Re: Rainfall Rate
« Reply #9 on: July 13, 2013, 10:01:33 AM »

The Davis recorded more?

... They are on opposite sides of the same post. Usually they compare well w/in 0.01 inch or so.


From the picture you posted above - do you suppose that, with rain and wind from the direction of the Davis unit, the CoCoRaHS unit might be shielded from collecting some the rain? 

It looks like the elevation of the CoCoRaHS is a few inches below the Davis, which might allow the Davis to "shade" the CoCoRaHS if wind-driven rain is from the Southwest.

Just a thought. 

Offline DaleReid

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Re: Rainfall Rate
« Reply #10 on: July 13, 2013, 10:35:03 AM »
The various stations that I use all have a tipping bucket style gauge.

One way of determining rate depends upon the time between tips, and when you have a real frog strangler going on, it tips mighty fast.  At those very high rates of fall even a few tenths of a second variation can imply a very high rate. The method of timing is not as accurate because the fast tips means that some variation in the collection occurs, and that makes calculating an accurate rate, at high rates, more difficult.  I would guess from the way this method is done that it would tend to UNDER estimate the rate, and UNDER collect, with the actual accumulation being a wee bit higher.

The other way to determine rate is to compromise on instantaneous rate (using time between tips) is to take a chosen time period, perhaps a minute or five minutes, look at the rain received during that chosen interval, and expand it to what an hour would be.  While this gets rid of the variation in tipping rate, it does not have the capability of giving an instantaneous rate.  If you got 0.2" in five minutes, then 20x that would be your hourly rate.  But what happens if that 0.2" occured in two minutes from a very heavy downpour, and for the rest of the timing period the real rate was much slower?
But other than curiosity, rate differences that short really don't make much of a concern.  If you live in erosion prone areas, a sustained rate is much more worrisome.

Indeed, here in the MidWest USA, it can fall at the RATE of 10-12 inches per hour (sort of hurricane wx), but it is for only a few minutes out of the whole storm. I think the most I've seen in the past decade has been around 11"/hour, and the storm total was a whopping (for us) 3 1/2", in less than an hour.   The integral of the rate over the period is the whole accumulation, of course, and the derivative is the rate, take your pick.

We've not had an old fashion gusher here in awhile, but so far this year I've had a couple brief indication of 8"/hour rates.  I usually have to rush to see the readouts of rate since by the time I hear it raining that hard, and get down to the stations, the deluge is already letting up.

A real indicator for me is to look at the debris and sand on on the road on the hill.  When it has washed a path or has washed away some of the roadside along the rural crowned asphalt road, then I know it was a real rate, with that amount of water needed to be cascading down (eroding), and then I am thankful that it was only for three to five minutes at that rate.

For those in hurricane-land, what are the sustained rates at the height of the storm?  I remember hearing the talking Wx heads saying rates of 10", sustained, could be seen.  How long does that go on?

Good thing Florida is mainly flat.

Obviously a non-reporting (unlike tipping bucket, RM Young capacitance, weighing bucket are reporting types) gauge cannot report a rate.  You'd have to take timed measurements and do the differential yourself.  Plotting and getting a slope is the same thing.  And the station uses whatever method of taking the time between tips, or the amount over the last minute/five minutes, etc, whatever the designer chose for a time interval, to see the rate.  And it is the station making use of the reported rain to calculate the rate, not the gauge itself.

I haven't timed it, but when calibrating one of my tippers, I noticed that after the high rate I caused by dumping some through, after I stopped adding water to the funnel, the rate still clicked down towards zero, so that station was using the method of amount of rain in the last several minutes rather than the time between tips, which I would agree would be more likely to be a better method.  I just didn't have the foresight to time how long it took for the rain rate to decrease to zero after the last water was run through the gauge.  Hmm, another thing to try after I get the other projects caught up.




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Offline Skywatch

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Re: Rainfall Rate
« Reply #11 on: July 13, 2013, 10:38:26 AM »
You could become a member of CoCoRaHS

Does CoCoRaHS do rain rate?
If I recall CoCoRaHS has a field for rain rate but with their rain gauge the only way to guess the rain rate would be to observe the gauge during a storm and see how many marks on the tube the water level passes in an hour. However this would only be a rough estimate.

My maximum rain rate occurred over a year ago in May a freak rain event the console recorded 82.29 in/hr it rained so hard looked like a moving fog you couldn't see a foot in front of the window and some streets in the neighborhood got flooded within a minute. Was also the first time I've seen golf ball sized hail. To this day I still remember that.
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Offline BigOkie

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Re: Rainfall Rate
« Reply #12 on: July 13, 2013, 10:49:39 AM »
You could become a member of CoCoRaHS

Does CoCoRaHS do rain rate?
If I recall CoCoRaHS has a field for rain rate but with their rain gauge the only way to guess the rain rate would be to observe the gauge during a storm and see how many marks on the tube the water level passes in an hour. However this would only be a rough estimate.

My maximum rain rate occurred over a year ago in May a freak rain event the console recorded 82.29 in/hr it rained so hard looked like a moving fog you couldn't see a foot in front of the window and some streets in the neighborhood got flooded within a minute. Was also the first time I've seen golf ball sized hail. To this day I still remember that.

As alluded to earlier, that kind of rain does happen in the US Midwest and the south (where both you and I live).  I got a 13" + per hour rain rate on 05/30 on a day I had about 2.25 inches of rain.  Definitely possible.
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Offline JECO

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Re: Rainfall Rate
« Reply #13 on: July 13, 2013, 10:51:22 AM »
I thank all of my compatriots for their interesting and useful responses to my rainfall rate observation. I feel more educated!

Offline Skywatch

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Re: Rainfall Rate
« Reply #14 on: July 13, 2013, 11:21:47 AM »
You could become a member of CoCoRaHS

Does CoCoRaHS do rain rate?
If I recall CoCoRaHS has a field for rain rate but with their rain gauge the only way to guess the rain rate would be to observe the gauge during a storm and see how many marks on the tube the water level passes in an hour. However this would only be a rough estimate.

My maximum rain rate occurred over a year ago in May a freak rain event the console recorded 82.29 in/hr it rained so hard looked like a moving fog you couldn't see a foot in front of the window and some streets in the neighborhood got flooded within a minute. Was also the first time I've seen golf ball sized hail. To this day I still remember that.

As alluded to earlier, that kind of rain does happen in the US Midwest and the south (where both you and I live).  I got a 13" + per hour rain rate on 05/30 on a day I had about 2.25 inches of rain.  Definitely possible.
Love storms like that. According to the NWS forecast we're in for some of that this upcoming week.
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Offline DaleReid

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Re: Rainfall Rate
« Reply #15 on: July 13, 2013, 11:35:27 AM »
SkyWatch:

What time of year did you have your frog strangler?

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Offline DaleReid

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Re: Rainfall Rate
« Reply #16 on: July 13, 2013, 11:42:03 AM »
The family and I were vacationing in Tucson in mid to late July (yeah, rates were cheaper and that year it wasn't too hot) and while at the hotel pool about early evening the maintenance guy said we should probably get the kids out in a 1/2 hour or so, a storm was coming.  Loving storms, and not knowing about monsoons, I went to the parking lot to see what was brewing.  I asked the guy if they had tornadoes down there, since this thing was the ugliest green and black I'd ever seen.

As predicted it began to rain,and the 8" roof spouts two stories up looked like fire hydrants for over 1/2 and hour.  The courtyard pool was about two feet under the surrounding concrete apron in just a bit, and most of the deeper depressions on the road were flooded, with TV and radio telling people to stay put (it was going home rush hour).

The most amazing thing, amongst all this, was I went out to check on the car and behind the hotel there was an area that looked like a dry river bed, maybe 400-600' across.  The dry area had been transformed into what I've only seen as pictures of the raft rides down the Colorado when they open the dam for a day to flush the sediment down.  Standing waves of muddy water that were easily 4' high most places and one that surely topped 10' tall of angry rushing water.  I was glad I didn't pick the spot to camp 100 years ago as an explorer.

The next day when we left, you couldn't tell it had rained other than the pool was full of leaves and grass.  The dry river bed was indeed dry again, no standing water, it was as if it had never happened.  I don't know where the water went, but there was a lot of it, and it was in one hell of a hurry.

Very impressive.

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Offline Skywatch

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Re: Rainfall Rate
« Reply #17 on: July 13, 2013, 12:01:29 PM »
SkyWatch:

What time of year did you have your frog strangler?





My maximum rain rate occurred over a year ago in May

May 2012.
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Offline floodcaster

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Re: Rainfall Rate
« Reply #18 on: July 13, 2013, 12:18:43 PM »
Quote
If I recall CoCoRaHS has a field for rain rate but with their rain gauge the only way to guess the rain rate would be to observe the gauge during a storm and see how many marks on the tube the water level passes in an hour. However this would only be a rough estimate.

CoCoRaHS does not have an entry for rainfall rates, only accumulated amounts and timing. The actual accumulated rainfall is what's important for flash flooding and river forecasting. Rainfall rate is a calculated value based on a few tips and extrapolating out in time. It is nonetheless, an interesting parameter to watch for those of us with home wx stations.
Bill


Offline dalecoy

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Re: Rainfall Rate
« Reply #19 on: July 13, 2013, 12:47:52 PM »
...
The most amazing thing, amongst all this, was I went out to check on the car and behind the hotel there was an area that looked like a dry river bed, maybe 400-600' across.  The dry area had been transformed into what I've only seen as pictures of the raft rides down the Colorado when they open the dam for a day to flush the sediment down.  Standing waves of muddy water that were easily 4' high most places and one that surely topped 10' tall of angry rushing water. 
.....
The next day when we left,.....  The dry river bed was indeed dry again, no standing water, it was as if it had never happened.  I don't know where the water went, but there was a lot of it, and it was in one hell of a hurry.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arroyo_%28creek%29

An arroyo can go from completely dry, to 100 cubic feet per second water flow, in a matter of a few seconds - as a result of a rainstorm that happened miles away in the mountains.  All while the sun is still shining and it has not rained where you are walking across the arroyo.


Offline SlowModem

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Re: Rainfall Rate
« Reply #20 on: July 13, 2013, 01:08:36 PM »
Does CoCoRaHS do rain rate?

Sure, if you have the optional raincoat and stopwatch.   #-o
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Offline ArmySlowRdr

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Re: Rainfall Rate
« Reply #21 on: July 13, 2013, 07:05:44 PM »
lol--we really do need a like button here  :grin:



Does CoCoRaHS do rain rate?

Sure, if you have the optional raincoat and stopwatch.   #-o

Offline Intheswamp

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Re: Rainfall Rate
« Reply #22 on: July 13, 2013, 07:20:16 PM »
<chuckle> Yep, I agree, ArmySlowRdr.   :lol:

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Offline Intheswamp

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Re: Rainfall Rate
« Reply #23 on: July 13, 2013, 07:25:03 PM »
Jeco, check out the rain rate recorded here...  http://www.beeweather.com/record.htm ...15.16 in/hr recorded about an hour and a half ago.  If it wasn't that high it was pretty john brown close!  Man, it rained!!!!

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Offline ocala

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Re: Rainfall Rate
« Reply #24 on: July 14, 2013, 07:40:46 AM »

The Davis recorded more?

Looking back through my June records, the Davis recorded 1.908 in, the manual CoCoRaHS recorded 1.70 on June 10. They are on opposite sides of the same post. Usually they compare well w/in 0.01 inch or so.

It rained very hard that night. I edited my records to reflect the manual amount. This was the largest difference I've noticed in 2.5 years. Perhaps it was an anomaly, but both WL & WD both recorded the higher amt
Ed the reason I asked is because it has always been the other way around for me. The Davis always under reports in heavy rain. Other then heavy rains the two gauges are usually 1-2 100's off.

 

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