Author Topic: Which radiation shield to get? (Read 2945 times)

quest100 · « **on:** September 21, 2020, 09:31:05 PM »

I will be getting an Ambient Weather WS-5000 weather station, when it is in stock and can be ordered. I know I need a radiation shield for the WH31E sensor, but which one? The choices that I know of and am considering are:

Davis Instruments 7714 Radiation Shield - $90
Ambient Weather SRS100LX - $50
Ecowitt RS-00001 - $20 + shipping to US

I listed them in order of (what I understand) accuracy. Any others I should consider for less than about $100?

Most importantly, how do they compare? Solar heating? Night time cooling? Low/no wind and moderate wind? Anything else I should consider, including alternate sensors?

galfert · « **Reply #1 on:** September 21, 2020, 09:53:36 PM »

You don't need a radiation shield for the WH31/E. Because typically the WH31/E is used indoor or for secondary locations which could be outdoor if you needed to monitor a porch/patio/greenhouse...etc. I suppose in some cases then you could use a radiation shield. The WS-5000 has a built in outdoor temp/hum sensor. You can't override it with the WH31/E.

If you want to override the WS-5000 for outdoor temp/hum then you need the WH32E. Now that you put in a radiation shield.

As for your list of radiation shields I would say that from best to worst seems to follow the price. But be aware that with the Davis 7714 you'll have to mount the sensor diagonally unless you modify it. That said though the SRS100LX has got more room to just stick it straight in and it will do well.

The RS-00001 though I do not recommend at all.

quest100 · « **Reply #2 on:** September 22, 2020, 12:09:45 AM »

I am confused about the WH32E -

Looking at the WS-5000 weather station page they list the WH31E and WH31P air sensors only. The WH31P form factor would seem to be better (smaller) for use within a radiation shield. However it does not have a hygrometer and the sensor being waterproof probably means it responds slowly due to its thermal mass.

Following your post I looked up the WH32E. It looks identical to the 31E. It lists compatibility with WS-0700-IP, WS-0800-IP, WS-0262 and WS-0262A but not with the 2000 or 5000. No other information is given on the ambient web site.

Finally, I looked at the Ecowitt site. The FAQ page states the the differences between the WH31 and WH31 are
1.Only the WH32 sensor data can display "Outdoor Temperture and Humidity"...
2. The WH31 sensor data will display "Multi-channel Temperature and Humidity" ...
3. One GW1000 can only receive one WH32 sensor data.

So they appear to be identical other that the radio transmitter. Is the built in WS-5000 sensor a WH32E? In which case I still need one radiation shield.

One of the things I plan to do is try building my own shield, possibly, eventually, a fan aspirated shield. But first I want a decent shield to compare.

quest100 · « **Reply #3 on:** September 22, 2020, 12:14:26 AM »

Thank your for your comments on the shields - it reinforces what I have been reading, but it is always hard to tell what information may be outdated or not applicable. Unless I hear otherwise I will get the Ambient SRS100LX.

Dean

galfert · « **Reply #4 on:** September 22, 2020, 05:43:46 AM »

The WS-5000 has a temperature/humidity sensor built into the WS80 anemometer. It isn't a WH32E. It is its own thing just like the WS-2000 has it built into the tri-arm outdoor sensor array. You can't take it out and put it in a radiation shield.

What you can do is override it with an optional WH32E. The console, if it sees the WH32E will use that instead for outdoor temperature and humidity.

You can't use any of the WH31 sensors as your outdoor temperature because they transmit as an extra sensor and not as an outdoor sensor. This means they get listed in the console as extra sensors and they never show as outdoor. There is nothing you can do with a WH31 to make it show up as outdoor.

The WH31 has dip switches to set it as channels 1 - 8, but none of those is the same as the channel for outdoor. You can only have one WH32E.

Ambient's WH32E is not the same as Ecowitt's WH32-EP. The Ecowitt WH32-EP is a better version of the outdoor Ecowitt WH32* with a better sensor chip. But you can't use any Ecowitt sensor with an Ambient console. But you can use a Ambient sensor with an Ecowitt console.

*Ecowitt WH32 is same as Ambient WH32E

Gyvate · « **Reply #5 on:** September 22, 2020, 06:32:47 AM »

What type of shield you use will depend on your use case (as shields can have multiple functions: protection against .... rain, dirt, solar radiation ...).
If your temperature/humidity sensor is exposed to direct sunlight, there are in my opinion only three reasonable options:
top down = accuracy and price

1. Barani Meteoshield Pro (top, super, expensive !) around 200 USD (www.baranidesign.com Europe/ www.allmeteo.com USA); also discussed in this forum (search for "Barani" and you will get plenty of stuff to read) - almost the price of the whole Weather Station

2. Davis 7714

3. D(o)ITi)Y(ourself
there is a nice recent example at https://www.wxforum.net/index.php?topic=40425.msg415008#msg415008

I'm also in the process of testing several DIY solar radiation shields - I have an actively ventilated self-made version which already provides very reasonable results.
(construction material about 22 EUR/25 USD)). I will also test it against a Meteoshield Pro. If interested, send me a PM.
You can come pretty close to a Davis 7714 by DIY (including the fun of building it - quite instructive as you have to think of the factors impacting the exact reading of the sensor).

quest100 · « **Reply #6 on:** September 22, 2020, 08:30:36 AM »

Thank you for setting me straight about the sensor. I was fooled by the pictures showing what I thought was a separate outdoor temperature sensor. I was wondering why it had no thermal shield. After reading your comments I looked closer at the written description and see that the sensor is for indoor use and includes the barometer.

I intend to place the wind sensor on a mast attached 13 feet above my two story house - putting it at 10 meters above ground level. I have already built a tiltable mast and will attach it to the house later this week. This should be as close to an ideal siting as is possible in my suburban house on a small lot.

I was planning on putting the rain gauge and (what I thought was a separate) temperature sensor a foot or two inside the side yard fence and level with its top. This area would be the closest I can come to proper siting anywhere near ground level. Any other location would be closer to two story houses and trees. I think I will still get the Wh31E and a shield. It just won’t be labeled “outdoor”. Does this mess up what is published to weather sites? If it does I may also get the WH32 but not use it until I’m done testing.

I wonder how many other misconceptions/mistakes I will make.

Dean

galfert · « **Reply #7 on:** September 22, 2020, 08:57:04 AM »

The WH31/E will not report to any online site except it will to Ambientweather.net. Or in the case of an Ecowitt console to Ecowitt.net. If you do add one or more of these optional sensors I suppose you could put it in a radiation shield for your enjoyment and comparison to the WS80/WH80.

You can't get the WH32E and see both it and the WS80/WH80 temperature/humidity. Therefore if your objective is to compare how a WH32E would do then starting that test with a WH31/E in a radiation shield seem like a fun test as that allows you to run both at the same time. Another way to do it is by using two consoles, where one sees the temperature/humidity of the WS80/WH80 and the other console gets configured as using the WH32E as its temperature/humidity. This is because the WH32E doesn't automatically override unless you enable it at the console. A good second console to add is the GW1000 as that will pick up both Ecowitt and Ambient sensors. The GW1000 allows you to also upload to Ecowitt.net and it allows you to integrate with other software.

Do not put the WH32B outside. This is the only sensor that will report as the primary indoor. And as you notices it also has the barometric pressure sensor.

quest100 · « **Reply #8 on:** September 22, 2020, 04:58:06 PM »

I seem to be batting 0 for my understanding of these aspects of a weather station. Let me get some other questions out.

1) Do any of the Ecowitt type weather stations separate the wind speed from the T/H sensor? It seems that anyone serious about obtaining good data would separate the sensors and site each as best possible.

2) Do most people who put the wind sensor up high still report the built-in T/H or do they buy the WH32E + shield combo and site it better?

3) I want to play with my data. This include using my own plotting and analysis programs with multiple sensors. Am I able to down load all of it from either Ambientweather.net or Ecowitt.net? Into a coma separated value table? Or something easily deciphered.

4) What do I need to directly log all of my own data? It sounds like I need software (Cumulus?) running on a PC/Pi and possibly a GW1000?

5) Should I be looking at a different weather station? Or is this the best (for me) at a reasonable price. Part of the appeal of the WS-5000 was the ability to have extra T/H sensors and PM2.5 sensors.

Rover1822 · « **Reply #9 on:** September 22, 2020, 05:38:52 PM »

I am only going to tackle the use of your own data. I do not know what platforms you are using or the level of your programming skills.

But , if you have the knowledge level to write your own application and have it receive HTTP requests (in whatever programming language, for instance I do mine in .Net, but language is irrelevant as long as you can stand up an application that can port listen and get the http requests. There is many ways to get that, you could also stand up your own application server (again in any programming language/ platform) and parse the requests, I decided not to for the increased overhead of a single function), and then parse it (and then do what you want). The GW1000 for a few bucks is well worth the cost as it will send data wherever you want, and simple.

If you don't have those skills, but maybe a step down, there are other options such as Olicat's , and a whole slew of possible solutions

Edit: I should have also mentioned that Ambient is adding the custom server approach that we use to receive data with our own servers, so the GW1000 may not be necessary. I believe and I will be corrected that this will be available with the Ambient WS-2000 and 5000 consoles

Rover1822 · « **Reply #10 on:** September 22, 2020, 06:33:27 PM »

Forgive me, I tend to overthink things

Yes, you can download data from either Abientweather.net (comes as a CSV), or from Ecowitt.net (comes as an xl file)

If you simply want to run those through or bring into an application , no problem. This would have to be a manual selection download, then open or import into your app.

Sorry for going too deep.

quest100 · « **Reply #11 on:** September 22, 2020, 08:08:14 PM »

Quote from: Rover1822 on September 22, 2020, 06:33:27 PM

Yes, you can download data from either Abientweather.net (comes as a CSV), or from Ecowitt.net (comes as an xl file)

Thank you, that's exactly what I want to do.

I haven't done any real programming for 20+ years. That's when I decided that the 3D metrology program (Sun Microsystem, Solaris, and XView) I wrote could be (mostly) replaced with commercial programs. Forty years ago I was rewriting the assembly level BIOS in a CP/M computer I built. Steady downhill progress.

galfert · « **Reply #12 on:** September 22, 2020, 10:30:49 PM »

Quote from: quest100 on September 22, 2020, 04:58:06 PM

1) Do any of the Ecowitt type weather stations separate the wind speed from the T/H sensor? It seems that anyone serious about obtaining good data would separate the sensors and site each as best possible.

Sure there is the WS68 that is a separate wind sensor with no Temperature/humidity. This type of station then requires the WH32/E. But Ambient doesn't carry this model. The reason the WS80 has built in temperature/humidity is because it needs it in order to calculate wind because of the way the technology works. Since this sensor needs the temperature/humidity sensor, it then just becomes a matter of economic sense to just not need the WH32/E. But if corse we know that temperature and humidity are better if reported from lower height.

Quote

2) Do most people who put the wind sensor up high still report the built-in T/H or do they buy the WH32E + shield combo and site it better?

I think most people with the WS-5000 and ultrasonic anemometer just use the kit whe way it comes. Most are clueless as to what adequate sensor placement should be.

Quote

3) I want to play with my data. This include using my own plotting and analysis programs with multiple sensors. Am I able to down load all of it from either Ambientweather.net or Ecowitt.net? Into a coma separated value table? Or something easily deciphered.

4) What do I need to directly log all of my own data? It sounds like I need software (Cumulus?) running on a PC/Pi and possibly a GW1000?

If you want local data then I think it makes little sense to download what you can capture on your local network. Why upload to then download your own data? Sure this is a good backup if something should happen, but I would not make it the main focus. I recommend the GW1000 and local software. This means Cumulus MX, Meteobridge, Weather-Display, or WeeWX. Run them all at the same time if you want off one GW1000 as I do. I run them all just to be familiar with them all and because I can. I also like certain things about each. These programs besides being able to have the data locally can also send it to more places online or to your own database in various formats.

Quote

5) Should I be looking at a different weather station? Or is this the best (for me) at a reasonable price. Part of the appeal of the WS-5000 was the ability to have extra T/H sensors and PM2.5 sensors.

For what you've said you want to do I think either Ambient with a GW1000 is the best solution or a full Ecowitt. The other solution is a Davis Vantage Pro 2 as that also has the expandability options with the various software. Big difference in price point. There are also other obvious differences between these two. Most people know what is important to them to easily make this decision between these two. Both great choices that check off diffent boxes.

quest100 · « **Reply #13 on:** September 23, 2020, 12:34:03 AM »

I originally looked at both Ecowitt and Ambient. I went so far as to put an Ecowitt system and sensors into the cart. Included was the equivalent of the WS-5000, the HP2553 plus extra T/H sensors, interior and exterior PM25s, a lightning sensor, soil sensors, and a leak detector. The Ecowitt price was much higher and did not include shipping or possible customs. Then I could not figure how to pay with VISA in spite of the icons indicating they accept VISA. Finally, I could not connect using https. What kind of a commerce web site does not use secure connections? Neither Ecowitt or Ambient list most of the items I want on Amazon.com.

Right now my inclination is to get the Ambient WS-5000 along with the extra sensors I want. In addition I expect to get the Ecowitt GW1000 through Amazon. I will call Ambient later this week and find out how long before the WS-5000 can be ordered.

If it is too long a wait I may substitute the Ecowitt GW1002 (no display) bought through through Amazon. It does not have the ultrasound wind sensor, but it has a separate outdoor sensor (no shield). I may or may not get a display.

galfert · « **Reply #14 on:** September 23, 2020, 07:24:26 AM »

You can't order the ultrasonic anemometer from Ecowitt if you live in the US. This is because Ambient holds an exclusive with Fine And for the US market on this part.

You can order from Ecowitt via email. You can customize your order via email to ways that you can't over their website. You can even order things not listed like WH32-EP or WH31-EP.

Getting what you can over Amazon is not a bad way to go and then you complete via direct order from Ecowitt. For example like you said GW1002 via Amazon and then add the HP2551-C display console from Ecowitt.

Combining the GW1000 with the Ambient WeatherBridge (Meteobridge) is also a neat combination because then you can upload to both Ambientweather.net and Ecowitt.net. The Meteobridge also gives you many other options.

Later when Ambient has the WS80 in stock you can add that too.

Then when Ecowitt comes out with new sensors first (they always do) like the WH45, then you can order those too and they will work.

modean987 · « **Reply #15 on:** September 23, 2020, 10:34:43 AM »

Quote from: galfert on September 21, 2020, 09:53:36 PM

The RS-00001 though I do not recommend at all.

Why no love for the RS-00001?

Gyvate · « **Reply #16 on:** September 23, 2020, 10:47:07 AM »

Quote

Why no love for the RS-00001?

Unless you only want to protect your sensor against humidity, dirt etc. (and solar radiation qualitatively but not quantitatively, i.e. without having significant over-readings) the RS-00001 or the La Crosse Technology 925-1418 are fine.

But if you want to keep a reasonable accuracy of the sensor readings, you have to go for something more sophisticated. Off-shelf models (Davis 7714 ~~FARS~~ or Meteoshield Pro) significantly more expensive, DIY (ventilated) rather economical with not too bad results. For DIY there are several posts/examples in this forum. I, myself, am working right now on a ventilated DIY version (22-25 USD) with quite reasonable results.
If you are interested beyond the theoretical discussion, drop me a PM.

modean987 · « **Reply #17 on:** September 23, 2020, 12:04:37 PM »

Quote from: Gyvate on September 23, 2020, 10:47:07 AM

Quote
Why no love for the RS-00001?

Unless you only want to protect your sensor against humidity, dirt etc. (and solar radiation qualitatively but not quantitatively, i.e. without having significant over-readings) the RS-00001 or the La Crosse Technology 925-1418 are fine.

...

If you are interested beyond the theoretical discussion, drop me a PM.

Got it! Good for protection, not-so-good for its intended purpose. I'll look into some of the other mentioned solutions, including the DIY.

I appreciate the DM offer. I may take you up on it at a later date when I know what to ask.

galfert · « **Reply #18 on:** September 23, 2020, 12:27:27 PM »

Several members of this forum have also reached out to Ecowitt regarding coming out with a better radiation shield than the RS-00001 and they are listening. No promises so far, but they said that they are looking into it. Just something to keep a look-out for in case they come out with it. This could though be a good reminder for those that have not yet done so to nicely show your interest and reach out to Ecowitt and let them know that you would like to see a better radiation shield from them. It only makes sense that they do so now that they have quality sensors like the new WH31-EP and WH32-EP that both have Sensirion SHT35 chips. They aught to have a respectable radiation shield to go along with those sensors. For now though for those that want the best and can afford to do so then the Barani Meteoshield Pro is the best.

CW2274 · « **Reply #19 on:** September 23, 2020, 04:35:18 PM »

Quote from: Gyvate on September 23, 2020, 10:47:07 AM

Quote
Why no love for the RS-00001?
Davis 7714 FARS

For clarification, the 7714 is Davis's passive shield, not a FARS.

Gyvate · « **Reply #20 on:** September 24, 2020, 04:48:42 AM »

Quote from: CW2274 on September 23, 2020, 04:35:18 PM

Quote from: Gyvate on September 23, 2020, 10:47:07 AM

Quote
Why no love for the RS-00001?
Davis 7714 FARS
For clarification, the 7714 is Davis's passive shield, not a FARS.

@CW2274
You are right - and I confused models - it's not a FARS (Fan Assisted Radiation Shield)! - Thanks for the hint ! I corrected my post!

CW2274 · « **Reply #21 on:** September 24, 2020, 04:52:43 AM »

Quote from: Gyvate on September 24, 2020, 04:48:42 AM

Quote from: CW2274 on September 23, 2020, 04:35:18 PM
Quote from: Gyvate on September 23, 2020, 10:47:07 AM

Quote
Why no love for the RS-00001?
Davis 7714 FARS
For clarification, the 7714 is Davis's passive shield, not a FARS.
@CW2274
You are right - and I confused models ! - Thanks for the hint ! I corrected my post!

No worries.

quest100 · « **Reply #22 on:** September 24, 2020, 04:59:30 PM »

I checked with Ambient - the WS-5000 is expected to be in stock sometime in the next 2 months. And no, they do not offer anything with separate wind and rain sensor except the WS50 which is not Ecowitt based.

So I mentioned to Ambient that I was going to get the Ecowitt GW1002 weather station plus some Ambient sensors. It appears that Ambients official position is that their sensors will not work with Ecowitt stations. Even when I pressed them on this they insisted that it would no work. Even when I said I would then go solely with Ecowitt. And no, I don't believe that thanks to this forum. But there is always the nagging fear the they might update the firmware on some sensors so they don't work with Ecowitt consoles.

In the mean time, the Ecowitt GW1002 is out of stock via Amazon. The Ecowitt HP3501 (GW1002 + screen) is expected to be back in stock October 1. Time to email Ecowitt directly and see what happens.

Rover1822 · « **Reply #23 on:** September 24, 2020, 05:35:31 PM »

Quote from: quest100 on September 24, 2020, 04:59:30 PM

I checked with Ambient - the WS-5000 is expected to be in stock sometime in the next 2 months. And no, they do not offer anything with separate wind and rain sensor except the WS50 which is not Ecowitt based.

So I mentioned to Ambient that I was going to get the Ecowitt GW1002 weather station plus some Ambient sensors. It appears that Ambients official position is that their sensors will not work with Ecowitt stations. Even when I pressed them on this they insisted that it would no work. Even when I said I would then go solely with Ecowitt. And no, I don't believe that thanks to this forum. But there is always the nagging fear the they might update the firmware on some sensors so they don't work with Ecowitt consoles.

In the mean time, the Ecowitt GW1002 is out of stock via Amazon. The Ecowitt HP3501 (GW1002 + screen) is expected to be back in stock October 1. Time to email Ecowitt directly and see what happens.

Yes , This is correct. Ambient consoles will only read Ambient sensors. Ecowitt consoles will pretty much read anything made by Fine Offset , including Ambient sensors. However, Ambient also gives you some more benefits . Although so does Ecowitt. I run a hybrid system of both. From a marketing perspective , I get why Ambient doesn't just allow all sensors to be read. I can live with it.

quest100 · « **Reply #24 on:** September 24, 2020, 05:43:37 PM »

Quote from: Rover1822 on September 24, 2020, 05:35:31 PM

Yes , This is correct. Ambient consoles will only read Ambient sensors. Ecowitt consoles will pretty much read anything made by Fine Offset , including Ambient sensors.

Yes, that was and still is my understanding. But Ambient's official line is that only Ambient consoles can read Ambient sensors.

News:

Author Topic: Which radiation shield to get? (Read 2945 times)