Topic: Open Letter to Davis Instruments Message Thread

[galfert]

This is an open letter to Davis Instruments message thread, where everyone can share their feedback to the company.
(maybe this can become a sticky)

I'd like to start this message thread to create a unified place where we can voice our concerns, issues, feedback to Davis Instruments. Sure we can email or call the company directly. But in this fashion we gain strength in numbers and we get to learn from each other the wishes and concerns that all off us wish to express to Davis.

I recently got this idea from watching the unfortunate issues with the Acurite Atlas product launch. After seeing Acurite be silent for a long time they finally got a company product manager to come in and talk to us weather hobbyists and professionals. I think that was the right move by Acurite. I wish them the best and I think they will continue to do great. Look at how great the "Let us know your issues" to Weather Underground has also turned into. I hope that Davis can also open up and be a bit more informative regarding our concerns and feedback.

I don't necessarily expect that a Davis representative will chime in here, but at least this message thread can serve as a unified place for them to get our direct feedback. Because they just have to be listening! They are reading our posts. But often messages tend to just be people complaining about issues or wants and here and there we may say what we wish for but it might be mixed in with other stuff. By all means we should continue to use this forum as we always have. It is just that perhaps now this open letter message thread can serve as a direct way of just talking to Davis or venting or offering solutions for Davis to implement. We will help each other be seeing what we all want or need. Davis will have a unified place to see our collective thoughts.

This doesn't have to turn into a "when will the VP3 launch" thread. We can offer feature advancements or requests to Davis. Or we can mention changes to existing hardware as replacement parts. Going forward say even after a VP3 launch or whatever it is called this can serve as a feedback mechanism of what they got right or wrong. Maybe it isn't too late to offer feedback so that the VP3 can be the best it can be when it finally comes out. Perhaps we can discus changes to WeatherLink 2.0 and maybe we can see a WeatherLink 3.0 that makes more of us happy.

So who would like to go first in what they want to say to Davis Instruments???....and lets keep it going.
(and of course Davis since we know you are listening ....please feel free to jump into the conversation...we promise to be nice)

[AA1ZA]

I am new to this forum and also to the hobby.   (Hence it is quite possible that I could be missing a link between the Ambient Weather station that you seem to own and the Davis product line?)

Anyhow, having read some of the threads here, it is clear that many have raised criticisms in the past.

In my own experience, all I can say is that I think their technical support rocks!   I've enjoyed fantastic support and courtesy the 3 or 4 times that I have contacted their support line.   Plus, their products strike me as reliable and generally well designed. 

[galfert]

I don't own a Davis weather station. I own an Ambient Weather Station as you pointed out. My interest in Davis is because I came very close to purchasing a VP2. I didn't because I felt it was a product in much need for overhaul and thus I felt at this time it was not a good investment. Basically I didn't want to have buyers remorse after buying a product that is over a decade old in design or rather more like almost 2 decades as the console is practically unchanged from the VP1. I'm a huge Davis fan. I'd also liked to see how Acurite upped their game plan with the Atlas line. So I'd like to get into a new weather station but right now nothing available checks all the boxes for me.

This isn't intended to be a bash Davis thread. On the contrary. It is a feedback thread to list out the positives and the negatives, and the wishes and needs of the user community.

I'm very much interested in a new Davis VP3 if one were to come out. Probably whatever it is there is a good chance I'd buy it unless they royally mess it up. I feel that we might be able to make a difference in providing feedback so that the VP3 can be its best.

That is great that you seem to have no problems with your current Davis hardware. But I'm sure that there are things you might improve.

[Mattk]

Now Davis isn't perfect but there appears to be those who have a thing about appearance rather than what is underneath, other systems may have an outward appearance more in line with what some expect but in some cases this is generally called the mudguard principle, shiny on top & sh!t underneath.

My biggest thing with Davis is the rain collector, this is a functional thing which can do better but may also affect price and this is where some will baulk at paying a little extra for something that may be more functional, some will prefer mudguards to a varying degree which is fine, this is there choice.

The biggest thing that Davis stuffed a lot of users with were the dam green dot loggers, now I have certain units that only work with certain units and mind you this was not really driven by Davis, this was driven by the cloners, out to make a quick buck for themselves but in reality stuffed a lot of Davis users around, big time.

What the VP3 doesn't need to be is yet another system within itself that isn't backward compatible with anything.       

[Aardvark]

To my knowledge there will not be a VP3 in the future , or at least my lifetime.  I have asked Davis directly and always got the negative.   They are investing a lot into their current product heading more for the agricultural community with multiple stations under a single account, as we have seen with WL 2.0 and their Mobilize app.

I suggested to them to improve their console, to remove the led lights and allow the unit to be clearly visible in a dark room and the use of color.   They said they would pass it on.   I am not holding my breath

[wase4711]

built in internet connectivity would make ALOT of current and soon to be users very happy..its crazy to have to spend another 200 bucks or so just to connect their systems so they are web /internet visible..

[johnd]

I don't necessarily expect that a Davis representative will chime in here, but at least this message thread can serve as a unified place for them to get our direct feedback. Because they just have to be listening! They are reading our posts.

I've no way of knowing for sure of course and ICBW, but I'd be quite surprised if this was the case, except conceivably on a very occasional basis or if an individual post gets drawn to someone's attention at Davis. But routine monitoring? My money would be on almost certainly not - IME it's just never been the Davis MO, which has always been more on receiving  individual emails or calls, or dealer feedback. I suspect that there's just not the spare resource at Davis to check in regularly here. Far as I can judge, everyone is really busy there right now, with 2.0 migration, continuing EM rollout etc.

[ValentineWeather]

built in internet connectivity would make ALOT of current and soon to be users very happy..its crazy to have to spend another 200 bucks or so just to connect their systems so they are web /internet visible..

Have you looked at Rainwise solution?  Davis weatherlink data logger USB version runs around $117 at Scaled Instruments allowing internet connection. The Rainwise solution uses the IP-100 Network Interface and runs $445, good luck finding any discount.
Davis just has no competition. Cheaper PWS are out there but quality suffers big time. IMO

[weather34]

I don't own a Davis weather station. I own an Ambient Weather Station as you pointed out. My interest in Davis is because I came very close to purchasing a VP2. I didn't because I felt it was a product in much need for overhaul and thus I felt at this time it was not a good investment. Basically I didn't want to have buyers remorse after buying a product that is over a decade old in design or rather more like almost 2 decades as the console is practically unchanged from the VP1. I'm a huge Davis fan. I'd also liked to see how Acurite upped their game plan with the Atlas line. So I'd like to get into a new weather station but right now nothing available checks all the boxes for me.

This isn't intended to be a bash Davis thread. On the contrary. It is a feedback thread to list out the positives and the negatives, and the wishes and needs of the user community.

I'm very much interested in a new Davis VP3 if one were to come out. Probably whatever it is there is a good chance I'd buy it unless they royally mess it up. I feel that we might be able to make a difference in providing feedback so that the VP3 can be its best.

That is great that you seem to have no problems with your current Davis hardware. But I'm sure that there are things you might improve.

having owned numerous chinese branded ambient ,fine offset the extra buck is worth every dime for the current VP2 , all previously owned chinese branded have never lasted more than 18 months here either baked in strong UV or mechanical failure after an intense period rain or storms or corrosion, these low end chinese brands always fails when it really matters.

not much needs to be changed in the VP2 and if they was to release something improved it would certainly be highly likely come as an upgrade component i.e improved rain component , improved temp,hum sensor component ..the platform for releasing upgrades or improvements is there already .personally found it in comparison to anything previous owned a joy and pleasant experience to add on extras,improvement and build quality really truly stands out when compared side by side.

console love it or hate it ,its a solid well built piece of hardware and what is underneath certainly is not found in low cost brands.

internet connectivity i can see this being easily improved however look around the forum and what are the costs of the popular belfry,meteobridge,wifi logger again its a platform that can be adapted i forsee this has another improvement to come.

all in all my personal view i dont see any significant overhaul needed .. 10-20 year old trusted design has a lot to speak for the product itself,will you still be able to buy todays low end current hardware in 10 years time probably not ... will you still be able to buy replacement parts or options in ten years time yes if your lucky to find some reseller who never manage to sell its stock 10 years ago .. example my oregon wmr300 wind vane hit by close proximity lightning and blew the circuitry apart , call oregon, search online no replacement parts available it was less than a year old we have limited stock of wmr300 you can buy at a special price which was more than what i originally paid..luckily i gambled ordered and fitted a davis wind component it worked but my trust factor , confidence had waned simply if something else goes amiss its confined to the bin..

bite the bullet and go get a VP2 and gradually invest your hard earned money in the options as time goes buy..

[miraculon]

Although I have previously mentioned these items in the past (e.g. "VP3" speculations), I will repeat them here. (no particular order of importance)

• ISS Solar Panel/SuperCap and battery voltage readings. Not just the dying battery flag
• Ability to display Solar and UV sensors via the anemometer transmitter 6332. I know that the 6332 sends it, but the console doesn't recognize it.
• An updated VP2 console that looks like an expanded VUE. Maybe multi-color selectable LED lighting as a partial concession to the "glitz" factor...
• Reset button instead of the "remove the battery and unplug the AC power excercise".
• An optional "super transmitter" that has inputs for alternate sensors, UAI function, etc.
• Ability to configure additional "rain stations". It seems that Davis contemplated this in the past with the non-functional VP2 menu items they once had the console setup.

If I think of anything else, I'll add it.

Greg H.

[mcrossley]

Whilst the console is visually dated, for me I'd prefer under the skin improvements over colour etc.

1. Support for multiple ISS connection a la Envoy 8x
2. More memory and support for logging decimals etc on additional sensors.
3. Switch the ISS to industry standard i2c interface for temp/humidity sensors.

[galfert]

Here is my Davis VP3 wish list. Some of these things may already exist on the VP2 but listed here to ensure we don't lose these features that I feel are important. I'm sure I can come up with other stuff not listed here. So I'm sure that there is still plenty for other people to bring up as feedback.

• Color touch screen display console about 7 or 8 inches in size (oleophobic).
• Both Built in WiFi and Ethernet connectivity.
• Console battery backup.
• Console logging to SD card that also works on battery power.
• Auto upload missed WU packets when network connectivity returns.
• Ability to display temperature in Fahrenheit but pressure in hpa (custom mixed units).
• Graphing on display console.
• Custom display screen layout options like movable template frames.
• Quality LCD display technology to avoid screen burn-in.
• Ability to see wind and wind gust and rain daily, rain rate, rain weekly etc. at one glance without pressing buttons.
• Wifi and sensor RF signal strength indicators.
• Alarm beep on network connectivity loss greater than X minutes (customizable and ON/Off option).
• Ability to set and view all 3 types of pressure: station pressure, sea level pressure, and altimeter pressure.
• Don't hide station pressure by just asking for elevation.
• Ability to choose which pressure type to report individually to each service.
• Internal Live Data accessible via network connection for 3rd party software (not USB only, but include USB option also).
• SHT85 with I2C protocol for humidity and temperature sensor (perhaps even dual sensors for auto heating and reconditioning auto swap) optional 2nd sensor.
• Indoor thermometer and humidity that are not affected by console...or provide external sensor.
• Optional lighting detection module.
• Ability to choose to report rain rate in 2 methods; instant per hour and accumulated per last hour.
• Automatic time synchronization via Internet NTP server.
• Ability to fully control and configure console via mobile app and also directly on console.
• Internal display console web server view like a router but adding full console view and control, log download and editing capabilities.
• SQL data upload/download compatible to external server for backup (and restore of at least 2 years of data back to console.)
• Display comparison capability to previous year by week and by month of all metrics.
• Multiple indoor and outdoor sensor capability with ability to custom name sensors.
• Ability to easily replace bad sensors.
• Sensor diagnostic quality control and replacement recommendation alert for bad sensors.
• Ability to choose ultrasonic anemometer option including 3rd party compatibility.
• Dimmable display by time schedule and manually. Maybe even auto brightness based on indoor light sensor on display.
• Alexa, Google Home, IFTTT, and SmartThings compatible.
• Alarm clock functionality (with individual weekday choice) with external source for music option.
• Option to display web cam in thumbnail view, full screen, and optional background with live data overlay.
• HDMI capability to duplicate screen to large external display.(not necessary if 2nd display via Raspberry Pi is supported.. See below).
• Ability to have cheaper 2nd display that reads data via network from primary display. I can even imagine possibility of 2 side by side displays for more information like graphs so more info is available at a glance without need to press buttons or have a screen changing tour mode. Maybe something accomplished by supporting Raspberry Pi app that has the Pi touchscreen (this is less than $100 network display solution). If Davis just makes the data available on the network I'm sure a 3rd party developer could deliver this. Or maybe Davis can offer their Linux app to run on the Pi. Either way or rather both!

   
   
   

[johnd]

Here is my Davis VP3 wish list....

This does seem to be turning into yet another VP3 wishlist thread, of which of course we have had many examples before. Suspect that most of the details have been done to death previously and happy to leave repeat discussions to others, but I know there are always new members joining and it isn't always easy to research old threads.

But one issue I'm curious to see if there are any new opinions about (we have discussed it a lot before I know) is the need for a console display at all. Most homes and offices already have plenty of browser displays around on smartphones, tablets, TVs etc. These are typically driven by (relatively!) quite a lot of computing power - is there any real need to duplicate this hardware when it would be relatively easy to have the console receiver device simply relay the live weather data as web pages to whichever devices might wish to listen in via WiFi?  If you want another wall or table-top display then just buy eg a cheap new tablet?

One other comment: Isn't it still the case that colour displays still need to be effectively mains-powered (or at least recharged at eg weekly intervals)? Or, conversely, if you want the display to be battery driven for an extended period, eg months, then they will be monochrome as per the current Davis displays, though if designed nowadays might well be E-Ink rather than the current VP2 LCD technology.

[johnd]

Whilst the console is visually dated, for me I'd prefer under the skin improvements over colour etc.

1. Support for multiple ISS connection a la Envoy 8x
2. More memory and support for logging decimals etc on additional sensors.
3. Switch the ISS to industry standard i2c interface for temp/humidity sensors.

Mark, [1] and [2] will obviously break the existing logger API in a major way, which isn't a reason for not doing it I agree. But it does mean that a lot of existing software like Weatherlink and Cumulus won't be able to take advantage of any new API. (I'm assuming that any software still being actively developed like WD, weewx etc would be able to adapt given time.)

[AA1ZA]

Just a question:  What is the hobbyist share vs the commercial share (eg. agriculture) of Davis' business?    It is not hard to imagine that the former could be posing a much greater burden on after sales support (i.t.o. volume at least) vs reward for Davis, or am I wrong?   

The feeling of "product development neglect" that many experience (as mostly hobbyists here, I guess), may well be the result of a simple business consideration as far as Davis is concerned, right?  I.e. rather than investing in the development of fancy, colorful Wifi enabled consoles, they'd rather align their product line with the more lucrative and less burdensome commercial applications?  Would make sense to me.

[mcrossley]

Whilst the console is visually dated, for me I'd prefer under the skin improvements over colour etc.

1. Support for multiple ISS connection a la Envoy 8x
2. More memory and support for logging decimals etc on additional sensors.
3. Switch the ISS to industry standard i2c interface for temp/humidity sensors.

Mark, [1] and [2] will obviously break the existing logger API in a major way, which isn't a reason for not doing it I agree. But it does mean that a lot of existing software like Weatherlink and Cumulus won't be able to take advantage of any new API. (I'm assuming that any software still being actively developed like WD, weewx etc would be able to adapt given time.)

I don't see that [1] would have break anything, just that you could attach your current sensors to any transmitter you liked. All that could be handled internally by the console. Obviously if you allowed multiple sensors of the same type like the 8x, then yes that would be a major change, but not what I was thinking.

[2] would be a minor update to the protocol. Yes it may break existing s/ware but would be a small change to accommodate.

[johnd]

@AA1ZA: Davis simply do not release any detailed information about the breakdown of units sold, so any aggregate figures worldwide are impossible to calculate. I can offer a UK perspective, but how representative that is of the wider world can only be a guess. But two broad comments:

It's not just agriculture vs hobbyists; there are many other market sectors too, like education, outdoor activity clubs of all sorts where weather readings are important (sailing clubs, motor racing, small airfields etc etc), academic and commercial research or services (not focused on high-end weather, but eg for ecological studies or ambient noise surveys where weather during the trial is an important variable) and many others. For the non-hobbyist groups across the board things like having a colour console or eg humidity accuracy typically score pretty low, indeed most agriculture systems now are EM and so don't (can't) even involve a console.

I don't have exact figures by category at my fingertips, but if I had to guestimate by value (ie rather than units sold) I'd say:

Hobbyists: 25%

Other non-agriculture applications: 35%

Agriculture: 40%

(Remember that a lot of private individuals will simply buy Vues (for reasons of budget or they simply don't need more), whereas a typical EM station order might be $3K value.)

On VP2-type developments, I think there will be new products here but, as is often said, Davis are not a large company and their development resource has to focus most of its efforts on a couple of major projects at most at any one time. In recent years these have been EM and the wl.com 2.0 platform. But I don't think that Davis will leave their traditional VP2 products in their present state of development indefinitely, they've just had to wait their turn while the focus has been elsewhere. So I won't be surprised to hear some announcements at some point in the next year or two, but exactly when who knows? But given the effort that's gone into wl.com 2.0 then I suspect that a major part of future data handling/present will make use of that toolbox.

[johnd]

I don't see that [1] would have break anything, just that you could attach your current sensors to any transmitter you liked. All that could be handled internally by the console. Obviously if you allowed multiple sensors of the same type like the 8x, then yes that would be a major change, but not what I was thinking.

Well, if you simply allow eg solar/UV to be attached to a 6332 then yes I agree and that would certainly be a step forwards. But anything more than that (ie the many other things that an 8X is capable of) and that needs extra slots or different variable types in the loop or archive packets can't be accommodated and so eg WL and Cumulus compatibility would be lost. (Doesn't sound like Steve has too many plans himself for Cumulus for instance, and I doubt that Davis would want to make any further changes to WLfW.)

[2] would be a minor update to the protocol. Yes it may break existing s/ware but would be a small change to accommodate.

[galfert]

Here is a neat idea for a feature improvement:

What if the rain gauge could somehow sense a clogged or stuck tipper condition and then the system gave an alert? I'm not sure if I have a clear good solution. But I'm sure we can come up with a viable smart effective solution that does not break the bank.

Like what if there was a water sensor in the funnel and then if the tipper doesn't move after a given amount of time when it detects wetness it could then trigger the alarm alert condition for a clogged or stuck tipper. I already have a water leak detection for my water heater through SmartThings, so the technology exists.

Maybe there are other ways to solve this issue?

[Mattk]

Here is a neat idea for a feature improvement:

What if the rain gauge could somehow sense a clogged or stuck tipper condition and then the system gave an alert? I'm not sure if I have a clear good solution. But I'm sure we can come up with a viable smart effective solution that does not break the bank.

Like what if there was a water sensor in the funnel and then if the tipper doesn't move after a given amount of time when it detects wetness it could then trigger the alarm alert condition for a clogged or stuck tipper. I already have a water leak detection for my water heater through SmartThings, so the technology exists.

Maybe there are other ways to solve this issue?

Like how about simply designing this issue out of the rain collector, it is very simple to do