Topic: Do any commercial (did?) airliners have afterburners on their jets?

[DaleReid]

Does anyone know of any commercial airliners which had jets that used afterburners?

I was watching a UTube clip of the Concorde taking off and the rear of the engines was glowing but not having the typical flame spike out the back one sees with military engines in afterburner.

I would assume that the fuel used was so enormous that even for take off they couldn't waste it on an afterburner.

Just asking.
Dale

[Wooks61]

Rolls Royce Olympus engines use on Concord:
"Until regular commercial flights by Concorde ceased, in October 2003, the Olympus turbojet was unique in aviation as the only turbojet with reheat powering a commercial aircraft" (source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolls-Royce/Snecma_Olympus_593 )

Reheat was only used on take-off and during the transition from sub-sonic to supersonic flight.

[Wooks61]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolls-Royce_Olympus - more info on the engine.

[DaleReid]

Thank you, I knew someone would know and you even provided a nice reference.

The article on the system mentioned that the 'reheat' system was used during takeoff, and then to accelerate from subsonic to 1.7 Mach when transitioning.  I found that interesting.

Once I talked with an pilot who flew commercially after he left the military, and had a lot of time in many earlier jet aircraft, one of his favorites was the F-102.  His comment was that you were 'out of fuel' even before taking off.  And I begin to get nervous when I'm at 1/2 a tank!

Thanks again. 

[Wooks61]

One of my favourite aircraft. It was a real shame that it stopped flying.

Another of my favourite aircraft:

The Avro Vulcan Bomber, which used the same engines.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avro_Vulcan
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qot_LfWiOzw

And if you have time: (45mins) The Vulcan - Operation Black Buck 1982 Falklands war.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jcEhZ2p4s9o

[CW2274]

The Concord was so loud that only a few airports were allowed to accommodate it, and I believe all costal airports at that. I got to see it in person at TUS about 8-ish years ago after it retired. Very impressive. Only thing, I don't remember why it was here, and where it went...

[CW2274]

one of his favorites was the F-102.

That was the fighter assigned to the ANG in PIT when I lived there in the 60's. Made a big bang when engaging the burners. C124's Globemasters were very cool as well there.

[Wooks61]

The Concord was so loud that only a few airports were allowed to accommodate it, and I believe all costal airports at that. I got to see it in person at TUS about 8-ish years ago after it retired. Very impressive. Only thing, I don't remember why it was here, and where it went...

It was flown from London Heathrow (LHR) and Paris Charles De Gaul (CDG) mainly to New York, Bahrain, Australia, and others. Its restrictions were that supersonic flight over land was not allowed. At the time it was believed that the sonic boom may affect livestock.

[CW2274]

The Concord was so loud that only a few airports were allowed to accommodate it, and I believe all costal airports at that. I got to see it in person at TUS about 8-ish years ago after it retired. Very impressive. Only thing, I don't remember why it was here, and where it went...

Its restrictions were that supersonic flight over land was not allowed. At the time it was believed that the sonic boom may affect livestock.

I'm aware of the sonic boom restriction. Military is just as restricted in the States as well, at least other than MOA's.

Forget the cows, people don't like broken windows.

[broadstairs]

I saw Concorde many times as they used to do pleasure flights in it from nearby RAF Manston (as it was) down to the Bay of Biscay.  Loud yes but not horrendous. If you wanted loud you only had to be by a runway when an English Electric Lightning took off and did a tail stand climb out, it was said that this aircraft with wing tanks had 30 seconds of fuel left if it went to 30000 feet in the climb - have no idea if this was true though!

Stuart

[DaleReid]

As a kid I grew up on the family farm about 90 miles north of Truax Field, in Madison, WI.

We spent countless hours in the field and would enjoy the show when the 102's and maybe even 106s towards the end, would come up to the area and 'play' in their dogfight exercises.



I do recall the people saying that livestock were frightened by the booms.   Hey, we had thunderstorms, too.  But things did shake and move and overall it was tough to get proof that a sonic boom broke stuff so often it just got paid for.

Dale

[DaleReid]

One of the most rare things I think I saw or more heard, was when I was a little tyke, my older brothers and I were in the barn finishing up chores when Dave called us out and said, Just Listen.  A very heavy feeling of rumbling coming from the southwest on a clear calm evening.  I can only recall seeing a dot, but it was a B-36.   Any heavy metal in our area of the country was rare.  This was near the end of their usage and we felt humbled to have sort of seen but definitely felt it.

I can't believe it happened, but during a lot of saber rattling, there was one weekend when the whole airspace was shut down for 'exercises'.  If I recall great sections of the airspace were closed to commercial traffic (which wasn't as prevalent as it is now of course) and the military had free run of doing whatever they wanted.  We heard a couple of sonic booms while out in the fields. 

It must have been a very much needed piece of propaganda for the military to take control of airspace and tell airlines to not fly through certain areas, not necessarily cancelling flights, but to at least not schedule them for good parts of two days.  Anyone remember this at all, and can correct my faulty memory?

[Wooks61]

I saw Concorde many times as they used to do pleasure flights in it from nearby RAF Manston (as it was) down to the Bay of Biscay.  Loud yes but not horrendous. If you wanted loud you only had to be by a runway when an English Electric Lightning took off and did a tail stand climb out, it was said that this aircraft with wing tanks had 30 seconds of fuel left if it went to 30000 feet in the climb - have no idea if this was true though!

Stuart

The lightning was another amazing beast.
At its time it was the only aircraft that could reach its ceiling height within the boundaries of the airfield it took off from.
Its purpose was to get up fast, intercept and hopefully return.
Two wings and a cockpit strapped to the engines.

[mcrossley]

I remember as a youth seeing a Lightning at an airshow at RAF Valley. It did a low-level pass over the runway, and I remember watching its silent approach with a vapour cone around it thinking that thing is shifting. Then an almighty great bang after it had passed! I'm fairly sure the pilot had "accidentally" broken the sound barrier

[DaleReid]

The approach by the Lightning is what the Blue Angles demonstration team has done for some time at their shows.

The other planes are off in a 180 degree direction and the announcer is blathering along about something, while Mr. Sneaky comes in from behind the crowd right at that magic spot where, if there is humidity, a vapor is forming along the wings and as you say, an amazing bang and roar since the plane seems only a few hundred feet above the crowd.  The story line that goes with this is to show how the planes can be intimidating to ground troops, with the implication that the grunts are unsophisticated, and easily scared.  The last few times I've seen it I have tried to recall where in the demonstration it happens and then turn to look for the incoming plane.  Not easily done but sure is impressive. 

Are Lightnings still flying?

[broadstairs]

Are Lightnings still flying?

Sadly no they were retired many years ago. There used to be one in S Africa I believe but don't know if it still flies.

In my youth I used to go to Biggin Hill airshows and could stand by the end of the runway in a farmers field just by where the Lightning used to pull up in the full reheat climb - totally deafening 

Stuart

[Wooks61]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YqD2DKvYyJE

[DaleReid]

Thank you for that link.  Reheat or afterburners seem to do marvelous things.

I like the somewhat dry comment in the video by a former pilot saying that the aircraft was actually pretty easy to fly!

Thanks for everyone's comments and participation.

[SoMDWx]

Concorde flew into Dulles Int'l , KIAD, Washington DC...

[vreihen]

Concorde flew into Dulles Int'l , KIAD, Washington DC...

...and did a once-weekly scheduled flight from London to Barbados.

So glad that I got to fly on one before they were taken out of service.....

[CW2274]

One of the most rare things I think I saw or more heard, was when I was a little tyke, my older brothers and I were in the barn finishing up chores when Dave called us out and said, Just Listen.  A very heavy feeling of rumbling coming from the southwest on a clear calm evening.  I can only recall seeing a dot, but it was a B-36.   Any heavy metal in our area of the country was rare.  This was near the end of their usage and we felt humbled to have sort of seen but definitely felt it.

I can't believe it happened, but during a lot of saber rattling, there was one weekend when the whole airspace was shut down for 'exercises'.  If I recall great sections of the airspace were closed to commercial traffic (which wasn't as prevalent as it is now of course) and the military had free run of doing whatever they wanted.  We heard a couple of sonic booms while out in the fields. 

It must have been a very much needed piece of propaganda for the military to take control of airspace and tell airlines to not fly through certain areas, not necessarily cancelling flights, but to at least not schedule them for good parts of two days.  Anyone remember this at all, and can correct my faulty memory?

As I stated above, the military sections off airspace called MOA's (military operations area, pronounced moe-ahs), and they can be "hot" or "cold", and are scattered throughout the entire country, especially out west with the lesser population densities.  Depending on that hot or cold, dictates whether civilian aircraft can fly through the airspace. VFR aircraft can fly through them, but at their own risk. IFR are steered away, or fly over them, if able.

I'm incredibly jealous you got to witness a B36 flyby in person. We have one here at our Pima Air and Space Museum, damn big airplane. The movie Strategic Air Command from the 50's with Jimmy Stewart and Jane Allison featured the "big stick", and one particular flyby (with a good stereo) will rattle the windows. Great audio.

Thanks for the stories!

[Wooks61]

My favourite fixed wing aircraft:

Military:
Vulcan
Buccaneer
Lightning
Harrier
SR71 Blackbird
F1-11

Civil:
Concord

[DaleReid]

I would have to stick my favorite in near the top  of the military, the Lockheed F-104.  Stud aircraft from long ago, and I think used in NATO countries over much of the world.  Unfortunately called the Widow Maker for a reason, mainly the goofy ejection seat (downwards in early models).

In the US there were a couple that had been rennovated and flew demos, painted in a sky  blue if I recall.

They made the most incredible sound, not just in the air, but taxiing on the ground, too.  I recall being in a commercial display building in Oshkosh, WI AirVenture when they were there, and heard this whooping/whooshing sound.  Turns out, as I best understand it, that the engine was unique and the air flow or venting or something, made that unusual noise.  The building emptied for the taxi out and take off.  Like race car drivers gunning their engines, the pilots  knew how to move the throttles to make them whoop.  I wish I'd had a recording of that, and some of the on-line offerings just don't do it justice.

Also at that airshow I recall that a lottery was being had to get a 1/2 hour ride in one of them.  I heard later some guy paid $5000 for the ride and they went out over Lake Michigan to try to get near max allowed speed.  I don't think they were allowed to go supersonic.  What a fantasy.  My wife would have been very concerned if I came home without the car but this enormous fixed smile on my face!

[DaleReid]

CW:

We have an active training area south of where I live (Volk Field) and once en-route to Madison to see my son, I caught a glimpse of a Phantom F-4 laying down a huge tail of smoke as it hustled along just a few hundred feet up, no doubt sneaking up on some un-suspecting B-52 .

Another time cutting across the cranberry bogs just north of the field, I looked up and literally almost hit the ditch as a pair of B-52s were practicing low level laydowns.  They were flying a race track, and the one I saw made a couple circuits, with my watching literally the pilot's helmet through the windscreen (very tiny, but no question what it was) with the luck of the sun angle.  That's just not something we see in this part of the country.  If I'd been ten minutes either side of that time, I'd have had no idea they were there.

One last 'story' about seeing stuff.  I was a plane nut from the time I could look up, I guess.  Cessnas and Pipers and Beech were advertised in Time and Newsweek.  Tens of thousands were made every year.  Anyway, as the military wound down, a base up in norther Michigan (K.I. Sawyer?) had some B-52s and they did something called Oil Burner runs.  Low level (particularly dangerous to those Cessnas and such) but the NOTAMS were clear when they were running, but I didn't know about those at the time.

One spring afternoon I was servicing a  Valley, center pivot, irrigation system getting it greased and looked over for the first runs of the year, on a 160 acre sweet pea field.  A light wind, beautiful songbirds, just fun being out even if it was work.  I heard a funny noise and looked to the south, only to see a B-52 nose on, not very high up at all, smoking along right at me. If I recall, they were about 500' up when they flew those routes at some segments. Of course no cameras or cellphones back then, so I was like a deer in headlights standing there like a dumbkin, probably dropped my grease gun in the sand.  It flew directly over me.  The sound of the engines was incredible, like these guys describe being at the end of a runway.  As it flew over me and pivoted to watch it go off to the north, then I felt, literally, the swirl of the air and saw the pea leaves stirred up by what I think now must have been a descending wing vortex.  And to top it off, the unique smell of burned kerosene for a whiff or two. 

That stuff just doesn't happen any more.
Dale

[CW2274]

I would have to stick my favorite in near the top  of the military, the Lockheed F-104.  Stud aircraft from long ago,

Also at that airshow I recall that a lottery was being had to get a 1/2 hour ride in one of them.  I heard later some guy paid $5000 for the ride and they went out over Lake Michigan to try to get near max allowed speed.  I don't think they were allowed to go supersonic.  What a fantasy.  My wife would have been very concerned if I came home without the car but this enormous fixed smile on my face!

Ahhh, yes, the Starfighter. One of the very few US military a/c I've never seen fly, sadly. I remember back in the late 60's when they strapped a tiny little rocket to the tail and sent that thing to about 108,000' iirc. Still a record too, I believe.

When I first got here to Tucson, the ANG here would give us controllers a free ride in their F16's, if you wanted, had to do ejector seat training was the only requirement. You leave on max burner, suck the wheels up and stay a few feet of the runway til the departure end, then literally straight up to 17,000'. Get there in about a half dozen seconds. They'd even let us take control and do "fun stuff". However, the goal was to make us throw up. They succeeded more than not. All that said, I never had the balls to do it. Wish I could have that back now...