Topic: Barani: too good to be true...

[Meteorology fan]

Only @tobyportugal strangely the WMO Screnn confirms the problem on Barani at low solar angle. And we know, because there was an aspiration screen next to it and it agreed with the cage in the readings.

Even artificial intelligence knows this, that at low solar angles passive shields perform poorly. This is especially highlighted in the Barani Meteoshield Pro III, and Barani hides it in its marketing messages. Even Richard from Barani Design mentioned that the competition accuses them of this and they have reduced this error to 0.05 deg.C at low solar angles which is not true.

[tobyportugal]

Only @tobyportugal strangely the WMO cage confirms the problem on Barai  at low solar angle. And we know, because there was an aspiration screen next to it and it agreed with the cage in the readings.

Even artificial intelligence knows this, that at low solar angles passive shields perform poorly. This is especially highlighted in the Barani Meteoshield Pro III, and Barani hides it in its marketing messages. Even Richard from Barani Design mentioned that the competition accuses them of this and they have reduced this error to 0.05 deg.C at low solar angles which is not true.

Let's stop talking for nothing, especially to an AI!
Choice 1: this study exists, and we can finally get out of the corridors of silence.
Choice 2: this study doesn't exist or is just graphs like we see here and the debate is closed for me.
Your answer is: ...?

[mauro63]

Today mine partially data, at 5 minutes, later I will do with 1 minute

 [ You are not allowed to view attachments ]

M.

[Jasper3012]

I actually want to know where you stand on this now. Do you deny the existence of this effect or do you just want more detailed reports, to learn more about it?

Pretending that the Pro overheats when the sun is going down compared to an active one is stupid.

Why would it be stupid? Low sun angle = highest % of the shield sfc area receiving direct sunlight and therefore the most heating of the shield itself. With insufficient wind, that heat can easily start to influence the air temp inside the shield via conduction and this isn't even taking into account solar radiation getting directly into the shield via insufficient protection from the shield design or heated air from the warmer plates entering the shield and not being blown away by wind. The KMI/RMI stated specifically in their study that they found a greater error on the temp in the Barani MS Pro during medium solar radiation than they did during high solar radiation, which they themselves said is counterintuitive, but it may very well have something to do with the low sun angle effect we talk about.

[Meteorology fan]

@tobyportugal got another proof that this effect exists. I'm adding my additional ones to show at different times what the Barani Meteoshield Pro III can "show"

[mauro63]

It's very sad to see how people attack each other for something that is fundamentally stupid and easy to solve

- those who encounter the problem sell the Pro and use an alternative product that they think is better
- those who don't encounter the problem happily continue to use the Pro until they have the same problem

All this clash, which takes on the appearance of a job, moreover unpaid for anyone, I don't see where it can lead.

The Pro has defects, and it's true, so do the Siap, the Rad, the Comet etc., why not accept them serenely and choose based on your own considerations, on the results of the tests of others, without the need to build this sort of cold war, which certainly has uncertain outcomes and requires an enormous waste of resources that could be channeled in more intelligent ways?

I respect everyone's opinions, starting with Toby, whom I deeply respect, because I too, once, passed under these "Caudine Forks" that allow advantages but in exchange for an inevitable alteration of one's analytical capacity, and one's objectivity.

Personally, I got out of it, today I do not accept favoritism from any company that contacts me for collaborations, I am not a rich man, nor well-off, but I have a business of a certain success, and I can buy more or less any of these products without having to submit to a condition that undermines my serenity and my modest analytical capacity.

I want to hope that the post can take a different turn from the current one, and that we can calmly compare and share our experiences, without aggressive, dominant positions, on the basis of certainties and knowledge that I assume are equal for everyone at our levels.

On the contrary, in this post, I will carefully avoid answering again and will limit myself to sharing my data in the comparison with SmartCellino in the dedicated post.

Thanks to all

M.

[Meteorology fan]

Unfortunately, as you can see J. Barani caused it @tobyportugal does not want to admit the problems in the case, which are obvious and observable under certain conditions. They are seen by many people, and only he himself denies the phenomenon. Most likely, this is due to the fact that @tobyportugal receiving free products can not publicly write about the flaws of Barani Meteoshield Pro III.

Of course, one must remember that everything has some flaws. On the other hand, these public dialogues have been created by what has accrued around the radiation shielding and marketing of Baran. Challenging @tobyportugal's artificial intelligence in the form of Chatgpt is ridiculous to say the least and negates what it gives us. You've been given so much tangible evidence and still don't see a problem with Meteoshield under certain conditions. Sometimes I have seen this effect for several days in a row. Hence came the documentation of this phenomenon on redundant sensors and checking the overlap of Apogee TS-100 or Davis FARS24H. This was confirmed earlier in Poland by colleagues with WMO Stevenson Screnn. For example, in these conditions, where the test has been going on for two years and we have seen the behavior on snow in freezing highs and in all conditions characteristic of temperate climates in Poland. A colleague there added an aspiration shield hence we have a view of the Stevenson and Barani and the usual multi-plate shield.

Of course, each system has a different response time and time constant, but the problem of the only helical shielding at low angles of solar radiation is observed at all times of the year and at different intensities. The assertion of 360-degree spectrum radiation protection by Barani Meteoshield Gen III shields is not true.

On this site one encounters a lot of slogans that are untrue and mislead a potential buyer into believing Jan Barani messages. Careful users will notice this after a few months:
https://www.baranidesign.com/meteoshield-professional

Each of us should, after interacting with this shield for a while, draw conclusions about what is true and what is not, because there are easy ways today to verify what the Barani marketing department describes to us.

[tobyportugal]

It's very sad to see how people attack each other for something that is fundamentally stupid and easy to solve

- those who encounter the problem sell the Pro and use an alternative product that they think is better
- those who don't encounter the problem happily continue to use the Pro until they have the same problem

All this clash, which takes on the appearance of a job, moreover unpaid for anyone, I don't see where it can lead.

The Pro has defects, and it's true, so do the Siap, the Rad, the Comet etc., why not accept them serenely and choose based on your own considerations, on the results of the tests of others, without the need to build this sort of cold war, which certainly has uncertain outcomes and requires an enormous waste of resources that could be channeled in more intelligent ways?

I respect everyone's opinions, starting with Toby, whom I deeply respect, because I too, once, passed under these "Caudine Forks" that allow advantages but in exchange for an inevitable alteration of one's analytical capacity, and one's objectivity.

Personally, I got out of it, today I do not accept favoritism from any company that contacts me for collaborations, I am not a rich man, nor well-off, but I have a business of a certain success, and I can buy more or less any of these products without having to submit to a condition that undermines my serenity and my modest analytical capacity.

I want to hope that the post can take a different turn from the current one, and that we can calmly compare and share our experiences, without aggressive, dominant positions, on the basis of certainties and knowledge that I assume are equal for everyone at our levels.

On the contrary, in this post, I will carefully avoid answering again and will limit myself to sharing my data in the comparison with SmartCellino in the dedicated post.

Thanks to all

M.

Hi Mauro,
On some points we totally agree.
The problem with this post comes down to one person, whose verbal excesses are counter-productive to his claims.
Let's not forget that he makes Barani look like a vulgar liar (to keep it polite), and has called people who work with Barani "sell-outs".
Like me, you have been subjected to outrageous attacks by him. And now he's flogging you for.... (I'll leave the rest to you).
I'm not going to remind you of your remarks about 'certified' PTs. Is copying AI prose worthy of a scientific field?
The attacks are escalating to the point of pirouetting to avoid plublishing a study. Anyone with a brain will come to the same conclusion.
Jan asked me for information about a published day (the person will recognise himself), I asked him for more info which he kindly provided.
Jan concluded that comparing an asset and a liability would inevitably lead to this type of drift.
As I'm stubborn but not stupid, I asked for the opinion of a guy from IPMA (I don't think you can go against this type of organisation) and his answer was the same.
Let's take the example of jaspers (in all courtesy): he has a very clear advantage over almost everyone else, a flat terrain with practically 360° of openings. How many times has he seen this problem between 2 passives? There's one unavoidable parameter: the curve of the sun is regular. So you can shake the bag of knots as you like, the problem will come one day or another (with wind variables, etc...) before or after apogee.
As a courtesy, you have problems with shadows if I remember correctly, Derek it's even more problematic, I don't have shadows but a non-grassy ground. 
I've read on here that someone claims to have overheating in this type of phenomenon, but how can he make such a claim given that he has a single Pro3?
If my English is correct, Jasper is referring to a study by our Dutch neighbours, but he's using the conditional tense, so it's a hypothesis. It would be good to publish the link.
While I was translating this message, I've just read the same character's attacks again, which have been reported to the moderator many times. As this continues, bye bye.
Seriously, using AI by someone who doesn't have a very high level of training is good for the bin.
What's more, he changes his message in the meantime...
By the way, the primary role in correcting university exams is to detect AI

[Meteorology fan]

People in Poland have different conditions and different systems. This confirmed to us the existence of the problem on the Barani Meteoshield Pro. The WMO full-size Stevenson Screnn showed us this very well in mountain climates. It is built according to WMO guidelines and is very close to what the Polish meteorological service has. I also spoke with representatives of the Polish meteorological service and they clearly emphasized that plastic passive shields tend to overheat more than the WMO Stevenson Screnn under certain conditions. Hence, they no longer use passive shields at synoptic and some automatic stations. This does not mean that this phenomenon does not exist in a passive screnn, because it does, but to a lesser extent than in plastic radiation shields and is due to the dimensions. Measuring air temperature is complicated, but you can use different systems, shielding and then we will get to where we are closest to the truth.

I'm changing the news because I'm slightly correcting typos. However, as for cooperation with companies I know how it is done in Poland. Disadvantages can not be presented to the public. Only the advantages and superlatives themselves. As for the person Jan Barani, many colleagues in Poland believe that they were misled with the Barani shield, and this is the opinion of not one but at least 10 people who have Gen III. They were misled by the marketing messages on the website and believed it. They wouldn't go for it a second time.

I understand that sales is important, but it can't be done in such a way that potential customer.

A very large psychological overgrowth has built up against this cover and many people wanted it. The dust has settled and the flaws have come out @tobyportugal that it is not as good as Jan Barani describes to us on his websites. The flaws exist and under certain conditions they are serious.

[Jasper3012]

It's very sad to see how people attack each other for something that is fundamentally stupid and easy to solve

- those who encounter the problem sell the Pro and use an alternative product that they think is better
- those who don't encounter the problem happily continue to use the Pro until they have the same problem

All this clash, which takes on the appearance of a job, moreover unpaid for anyone, I don't see where it can lead.

The Pro has defects, and it's true, so do the Siap, the Rad, the Comet etc., why not accept them serenely and choose based on your own considerations, on the results of the tests of others, without the need to build this sort of cold war, which certainly has uncertain outcomes and requires an enormous waste of resources that could be channeled in more intelligent ways?

I respect everyone's opinions, starting with Toby, whom I deeply respect, because I too, once, passed under these "Caudine Forks" that allow advantages but in exchange for an inevitable alteration of one's analytical capacity, and one's objectivity.

Personally, I got out of it, today I do not accept favoritism from any company that contacts me for collaborations, I am not a rich man, nor well-off, but I have a business of a certain success, and I can buy more or less any of these products without having to submit to a condition that undermines my serenity and my modest analytical capacity.

I want to hope that the post can take a different turn from the current one, and that we can calmly compare and share our experiences, without aggressive, dominant positions, on the basis of certainties and knowledge that I assume are equal for everyone at our levels.

On the contrary, in this post, I will carefully avoid answering again and will limit myself to sharing my data in the comparison with SmartCellino in the dedicated post.

Thanks to all

M.

Hi Mauro,
On some points we totally agree.
The problem with this post comes down to one person, whose verbal excesses are counter-productive to his claims.
Let's not forget that he makes Barani look like a vulgar liar (to keep it polite), and has called people who work with Barani "sell-outs".
Like me, you have been subjected to outrageous attacks by him. And now he's flogging you for.... (I'll leave the rest to you).
I'm not going to remind you of your remarks about 'certified' PTs. Is copying AI prose worthy of a scientific field?
The attacks are escalating to the point of pirouetting to avoid plublishing a study. Anyone with a brain will come to the same conclusion.
Jan asked me for information about a published day (the person will recognise himself), I asked him for more info which he kindly provided.
Jan concluded that comparing an asset and a liability would inevitably lead to this type of drift.
As I'm stubborn but not stupid, I asked for the opinion of a guy from IPMA (I don't think you can go against this type of organisation) and his answer was the same.
Let's take the example of jaspers (in all courtesy): he has a very clear advantage over almost everyone else, a flat terrain with practically 360° of openings. How many times has he seen this problem between 2 passives? There's one unavoidable parameter: the curve of the sun is regular. So you can shake the bag of knots as you like, the problem will come one day or another (with wind variables, etc...) before or after apogee.
As a courtesy, you have problems with shadows if I remember correctly, Derek it's even more problematic, I don't have shadows but a non-grassy ground. 
I've read on here that someone claims to have overheating in this type of phenomenon, but how can he make such a claim given that he has a single Pro3?
If my English is correct, Jasper is referring to a study by our Dutch neighbours, but he's using the conditional tense, so it's a hypothesis. It would be good to publish the link.
While I was translating this message, I've just read the same character's attacks again, which have been reported to the moderator many times. As this continues, bye bye.
Seriously, using AI by someone who doesn't have a very high level of training is good for the bin.
What's more, he changes his message in the meantime...
By the way, the primary role in correcting university exams is to detect AI

Here’s the link to the KMI/RMI study: https://orfeo.belnet.be/bitstream/handle/internal/7285/P1_26_Sotelino_et%20al_ExtendedAbstract.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y

It is true that during my SC vs Barani testing, I did not measure this effect even once, but that is most likely down to the poor autumn and winter weather conditions here. Next spring and summer, I intend to run the “ultimate” comparison and do the SC vs Barani vs Davis FARS. That should help us further in finding out more about this effect. I’d have loved to already be running this test at this time, but Geert is currently too busy and that likely won’t change for a few more months.

[mauro63]

It's very sad to see how people attack each other for something that is fundamentally stupid and easy to solve

- those who encounter the problem sell the Pro and use an alternative product that they think is better
- those who don't encounter the problem happily continue to use the Pro until they have the same problem

All this clash, which takes on the appearance of a job, moreover unpaid for anyone, I don't see where it can lead.

The Pro has defects, and it's true, so do the Siap, the Rad, the Comet etc., why not accept them serenely and choose based on your own considerations, on the results of the tests of others, without the need to build this sort of cold war, which certainly has uncertain outcomes and requires an enormous waste of resources that could be channeled in more intelligent ways?

I respect everyone's opinions, starting with Toby, whom I deeply respect, because I too, once, passed under these "Caudine Forks" that allow advantages but in exchange for an inevitable alteration of one's analytical capacity, and one's objectivity.

Personally, I got out of it, today I do not accept favoritism from any company that contacts me for collaborations, I am not a rich man, nor well-off, but I have a business of a certain success, and I can buy more or less any of these products without having to submit to a condition that undermines my serenity and my modest analytical capacity.

I want to hope that the post can take a different turn from the current one, and that we can calmly compare and share our experiences, without aggressive, dominant positions, on the basis of certainties and knowledge that I assume are equal for everyone at our levels.

On the contrary, in this post, I will carefully avoid answering again and will limit myself to sharing my data in the comparison with SmartCellino in the dedicated post.

Thanks to all

M.

Hi Mauro,
On some points we totally agree.
The problem with this post comes down to one person, whose verbal excesses are counter-productive to his claims.
Let's not forget that he makes Barani look like a vulgar liar (to keep it polite), and has called people who work with Barani "sell-outs".
Like me, you have been subjected to outrageous attacks by him. And now he's flogging you for.... (I'll leave the rest to you).
I'm not going to remind you of your remarks about 'certified' PTs. Is copying AI prose worthy of a scientific field?
The attacks are escalating to the point of pirouetting to avoid plublishing a study. Anyone with a brain will come to the same conclusion.
Jan asked me for information about a published day (the person will recognise himself), I asked him for more info which he kindly provided.
Jan concluded that comparing an asset and a liability would inevitably lead to this type of drift.
As I'm stubborn but not stupid, I asked for the opinion of a guy from IPMA (I don't think you can go against this type of organisation) and his answer was the same.
Let's take the example of jaspers (in all courtesy): he has a very clear advantage over almost everyone else, a flat terrain with practically 360° of openings. How many times has he seen this problem between 2 passives? There's one unavoidable parameter: the curve of the sun is regular. So you can shake the bag of knots as you like, the problem will come one day or another (with wind variables, etc...) before or after apogee.
As a courtesy, you have problems with shadows if I remember correctly, Derek it's even more problematic, I don't have shadows but a non-grassy ground. 
I've read on here that someone claims to have overheating in this type of phenomenon, but how can he make such a claim given that he has a single Pro3?
If my English is correct, Jasper is referring to a study by our Dutch neighbours, but he's using the conditional tense, so it's a hypothesis. It would be good to publish the link.
While I was translating this message, I've just read the same character's attacks again, which have been reported to the moderator many times. As this continues, bye bye.
Seriously, using AI by someone who doesn't have a very high level of training is good for the bin.
What's more, he changes his message in the meantime...
By the way, the primary role in correcting university exams is to detect AI

I agree and I would just like to say, regarding a specific passage of yours, that, in fact, my position suffers from shading in the early morning that lasts until about 9:30 local time, from that moment on all the screens work in the same conditions.

In particular, Siap and Pro 3 receive the sun first and at the same time being on the same pole, which is why I avoid including the Comet in the comparison.

I am including the Metspec Stevenson screed instead because it is also located on the same pole as Siap and Pro

This prevents me from detecting the alleged problem in the early hours of the spring and summer months, but it would potentially allow me to do so now because, from what I read, from what I have intuited, and I am sure I am wrong, as in many other aspects of this passion, the critical elevation is in the 15/25° range and is what, to date, I have at its maximum peak.

I also agree that it is necessary to integrate your attacks with data in hand, waging a war without weapons, although to be condemned, does not bring great results, among these there will be my missed future interventions that will be limited only to posting any graphs, like the one yesterday and that I will post later, in which the problem described could be feared.

Good continuation

M.

[Meteorology fan]

I’m waiting mauro063 for further your charts. Colleagues in Poland have already seen this chart and said they are interested in the Smart Cellino as a replacement for the Ms Pro 3 from Barani.

First impressions after a colleague took out the SmartCellino in Poland are positive, and he plans to test in a few months whether it will be his replacement for the Barani next to the active shelters to detect potential problems with the power supply or the behavior of them.

[mauro63]

I’m waiting mauro063 for further your charts. Colleagues in Poland have already seen this chart and said they are interested in the Smart Cellino as a replacement for the Ms Pro 3 from Barani.

First impressions after a colleague took out the SmartCellino in Poland are positive, and he plans to test in a few months whether it will be his replacement for the Barani next to the active shelters to detect potential problems with the power supply or the behavior of them.

I will post the graphs if I consider them interesting and relevant, as, just by chance yesterday.

 [ You are not allowed to view attachments ]

However, it is important to take into account that this is my installation, which is also of low quality, and what happens to me does not necessarily happen to everyone, my graphs should not be taken as an indicator of truth, the truth, or presumed such, is born from the study and comparison with many different realities.

This is why it is important that, for a report, whether positive or negative, it is always good to provide supporting data or you run the risk of being considered not serious or reliable.

M.

[Meteorology fan]

It would also be good to pair it with ventilated shields like the Apogee TS-100, Met One 076B. The Met One 076B was not available in Poland.

We, for our part, are also testing one copy of the Smart Cellino in Poland. If it passes the test, more people can acquire this shield and supplement it next to the Barani Gen III, or replace it completely and give it next to the aspirational ones.

As for the problem that occurs. In Poland it is observed around 15-30 degrees especially. At the time of the sun's rise above the horizon in summer, it is rarely observed or not at all, but it depends on the wind speed. We have seen it many times in autumn in different locations. The cage I showed you was free of this effect, which caused a large error. The WMO Stevenson Screnn  is considered a reference in instrumental measurements. For some reason, meteo services rely on them. More than one employee of the Polish meteo service recognized that Barani's problems are nothing new and the helix under certain conditions can cause more problems than the multi-plate shield, and this should be kept in mind.

[Jasper3012]

It's very sad to see how people attack each other for something that is fundamentally stupid and easy to solve

- those who encounter the problem sell the Pro and use an alternative product that they think is better
- those who don't encounter the problem happily continue to use the Pro until they have the same problem

All this clash, which takes on the appearance of a job, moreover unpaid for anyone, I don't see where it can lead.

The Pro has defects, and it's true, so do the Siap, the Rad, the Comet etc., why not accept them serenely and choose based on your own considerations, on the results of the tests of others, without the need to build this sort of cold war, which certainly has uncertain outcomes and requires an enormous waste of resources that could be channeled in more intelligent ways?

I respect everyone's opinions, starting with Toby, whom I deeply respect, because I too, once, passed under these "Caudine Forks" that allow advantages but in exchange for an inevitable alteration of one's analytical capacity, and one's objectivity.

Personally, I got out of it, today I do not accept favoritism from any company that contacts me for collaborations, I am not a rich man, nor well-off, but I have a business of a certain success, and I can buy more or less any of these products without having to submit to a condition that undermines my serenity and my modest analytical capacity.

I want to hope that the post can take a different turn from the current one, and that we can calmly compare and share our experiences, without aggressive, dominant positions, on the basis of certainties and knowledge that I assume are equal for everyone at our levels.

On the contrary, in this post, I will carefully avoid answering again and will limit myself to sharing my data in the comparison with SmartCellino in the dedicated post.

Thanks to all

M.

I think Toby already knows this but when I disagree with him, this is done in a correct manner and with interesting discussions, rather than attacks. I have no issue with anyone in this thread.

[Meteorology fan]

I'm just puzzled by what happened in this thread that @tobyportugal closed the opportunity to speak. A colleague from Italy asked him, among other things, if he would buy a Barani FARS Gen III for 573 euros. The answer was not heard. Strange is sometimes the behavior of our fellow forum member. The truth about products and defects in his opinion is better not to discuss on the forum. Especially when it concerns a company from Slovakia.
https://www.wxforum.net/index.php?topic=47127.0

[mauro63]

It seems to me that I am speaking into a void, or in an apparently incomprehensible language

Someone continues with continuous polemics, bickering and instigation that, obvious, will receive responses of the same tenor, it's very annoying

until proven otherwise we are in a free forum, dictated by rules but fundamentally free, if  @tobyportugal does not deem it appropriate to answer a direct question he has every right to do so, it will be his decision

Having a partnership with a company, and I have had many, is an extremely difficult operation, earning the necessary reputation and trust is not something for everyone, and this means that Toby has the qualities and the knowledge needed

It is true that having products for free triggers an obvious psychological conditioning, that's why I stopped from this point of view, I am responsible for Ecowitt for Italy for some aspects but if I need EPs, gateways, consoles or anything else, I ask for the proforma and pay, like everyone else.

go ahead, I will remain seated on the bank of the river.....I don't care if Poland, Belgium or any other countries  buys the Siap screens or Pro or anyother, but this way it becomes unbearable and very difficult to relax peacefully, the most important by my point of view

M.

[Meteorology fan]

As a matter of interest, I will add that the Polish meteorological service in the Podhale region (southern Poland). More precisely, the locality of Ratulow used the Vaisala DTR elongated shields for many years. Recently, they replaced it completely with a WMO Stevenson Screnn cage with double blinds. Most likely, in conditions of high albedo and snow, the Vaisala passive shield performed poorly. Hence the return to the familiar WMO Stevenson Screnn.

Of course, the Barani Meteoshield Pro III is better in many situations than the Vaisala DTR, but it too can generate large radiation errors under certain conditions. Definitely larger than the Stevenson Screnn.

We are waiting for interesting conditions with snow how the Smart Cellino will perform on them relative to active shields like Davis FARS24H, Apogee TS-100. The build quality itself is good there. The sensor mounting accessories are interesting, and this was evaluated on the plus side by a colleague from Poland who has been testing the shield for several days.

After some deliberation, we decided to send this cover to a colleague what has experience with WMO stations to look at Smart Cellino. The results of the SHT-35 readings can be tracked online, and a measurement from the PT1000 is also added - https://www.ecowitt.net/home/index?id=122831

[Meteorology fan]

Yesterday there were conditions of high weather with relatively low sun angle. The wind speed at the climax of the day did not exceed 3 m/s. The morning was windless, the sun was rising, and there were remnants of frost. There were times that it overheated by more than 1.5 degrees. You can see that forced ventilation in such conditions is a must. The Barani Meteoshield Pro III would certainly overheat more severely than the WMO Stevenson Screnn. Below are graphs from SHT35 and PT1000. Barani final slightly overheated and this was confirmed by independent sensors from each other. We are talking about maximum values.