WXforum.net
Weather Station Hardware => Ambient Weather and Ecowitt and other Fine Offset clones => Topic started by: wardie on January 20, 2021, 05:00:19 PM
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I thought I would start a thread for WS80 owners to see if people are getting any anomalies in their data, especially with respect to any other anemometer data they have.
We have a storm here in UK so with higher winds/gusts nothing bonkers yet but say 50kph+. Anyway I've got both my WS80 back and up and now also a WS68, albeit in sightly different location on roof (WS68 is a bit higher and clearer of roof profile than the WS80 but both will be impacted by the wind flow on roof to a degree, WS80 also by nearby tree).
[As I've documented elsewhere I had a strange prior behaviour with WS80 reporting 120-130kph winds then stopping. It worked fine after a reset. I got a replacement unit from Froggit anyway, which I now have got up for a few days. All seems OK until I noticed the below tonight.]
In general the last few days I've noticed the WS80 seems to report a bit higher than WS68 on gusts and speed, but that could just be a combo of the reporting frequency and placement differences I guess. However today about 3.40pm I suddenly recorded a short high spike in WS80 wind gust (90kph), but then it dropped back down to significantly below the prior general levels it had been reporting. The wind speed reading also seem to have dropped significantly (like half what they were). All the while the WS68 gusts and speeds have remained relative similar in time, so are quite a good gauge of the "real" world.
I'm not getting up a ladder at night in a storm to reset the WS80 but will do once it dies down and if the potential anomaly continues with it. I'm totally speculating without any internal knowledge but that almost feels like some sort of internal calibration parameter gone stray w.r.t. the ultrasonic sensor processing.
Anyway I would appreciate people's thoughts and also f any one has got any anomaly data / comparative data either way it would be good to compare notes. I would have to be very very unlucky to get 2x fault WS80's I think to I guess it's possible there may just be some inherent wrinkles in the overall package to bear in mind, occasional resets etc.
See comparative graph here from my dashboard - WS80 in pink, WS68 in blue. You can see where the two data sets start to divert roughly in the middle of time series.
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Leaf or twig from the tree whack into the WS80 and get lodged in there? ;-)
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one of the great features of AWEKAS is, that you can make a sanity check of your main sensor data results - comparing with stations in a radius of 10, 20, 50, 100 km. As it's my WS80 which reports to AWEKAS I can get quite some good feedback through their statistics.
https://www.awekas.at/en/station.php?id=16544
It doesn't look as if it's over-reporting.
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The minute observation based data from my Meteobridge shows reasonable results as my nearest METAR station (10 km away) shows values in the same order of magnitude - and strong winds are forecast for my area for today.
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But even in a fully open and obstacle free field situation you may catch some very local whirlwinds which can give the idea of your station / sensor not reporting properly. You may give too much attention to some such momentary observations.
However, if they occur more frequently even when there's no wind at all, I'd be more alarmed.
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The WS80 always reads higher than my cup anemometer and certainly sees gusts at higher peaks.
However I concede that you do seem to be showing something odd.
I presume that this is Weewx data we are looking at. Have you compared your Ecowitt dashboard data as the definitive record?
As previously mentioned I have yet to observe any anomalies in my data with the WS80 in all conditions.
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I still have my WH65 running in parallel - and it runs "in tune" - not catching (or better not reporting) every value the WS80 does,
(16 seconds vs. 4 seconds reporting interval), but in principle it's consistent.
Also interesting here the information from Ecowitt regarding which value is sent from the sensor to the console (see Olicat's recent post).
https://www.wxforum.net/index.php?topic=41201.0
Adding the weewx view for the same period ...
(the gap is caused by a server downtime)
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I have to say I'm quite happy with the observations my WS80 provides.
(still yours could be faulty - even a replacement item, cannot be excluded at 100%)
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Hi!
Also interesting here the information from Ecowitt regarding which value is sent from the sensor to the console (see Olicat's recent post).
https://www.wxforum.net/index.php?topic=41201.0
Just to make this sure:
The sensor sends the correct values within each reporting interval to the station. But if the reporting interval from console to attached services differs, only the values of last sensor transmission will be sent.
Oliver
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I will add that my data shows a considerable drop in wind as the front moved through last night around midnight in my location.
You can see that as the pressure bottomed and dramatically started climbing, the rain stops and the temperature dropped as the skies cleared.
Its almost cliff like in the wind speeds from what was previously peak winds.
Unfortunately I did not have my wh65 wind measures running last night to compare, but I am thinking you saw the same scenario on your WS80 though I cannot explain why your WH65/WS68 continued to record higher values.
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Yup I'll keep an eye on it and not leap to any dramatic conclusions, I'm busy learning all this stuff so thanks for all your experienced inputs! It would well be all "real" observed. I noticed the two sensors came back broadly in line coincident with the low heading away from UK and pressure starting to rise again around midnight. Maybe it's just artefacts of where the sensors are, but interesting. I suspect I'll always get at least some directional differences due to tree shadow to north of WS80 less so for WS68. Pic attaches, taken facing east. Would welcome your inputs on site implications, but not much other choice of high up location TBF.
Anyway, in a lull in the wind, I just took the WS80 down, inspected it and reset it just in case. No debris in the ultrasonic sensor area, the only thing I could see was that one of the little metal gauze "edge flaps" was bent up, maybe indicating some debris had hit it. I bent it back and replaced. Other than that it was just a bit wet.
@gyvate that AWEKAS is interesting, is that also available in UK? I'll have a look. Nearest useful site I've used before for METAR is Luton airport (EGGW), I used for pressure calibration.
@mandrake yes that dashboard is output from 2x Weewx instances archive records generated via the GW1000 API, not off the GW1000s directly, so yes that has to be factored in. [GW1000 -> API -> Weewx -> MQTT -> Node-RED -> Initial State] However I reviewed my HP2551-C console that is reading the WS80 and it was showing the spike and then drop in values in the history screen. That also was the same shown on Ecowitt.net and WU (IKNEBW2) where it flows from the GW1000 web services directly (not via weewx).
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@gyvate that AWEKAS is interesting, is that also available in UK? I'll have a look. Nearest useful site I've used before for METAR is Luton airport (EGGW), I used for pressure calibration.
ent id=3 msg=423197]
you can register from all over the world. 8-)
https://www.awekas.at/en/benutzer.php?mode=new
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@gyvate that AWEKAS is interesting, is that also available in UK? I'll have a look. Nearest useful site I've used before for METAR is Luton airport (EGGW), I used for pressure calibration.
ent id=3 msg=423197]
you can register from all over the world. 8-)
https://www.awekas.at/en/benutzer.php?mode=new
AWEKAS has a very nice admin team too. :roll:
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I've re-sited by WS80 (with heater cable, thankfully I did get the 20m!) to a similar position to the WS68 (basically in the 'opposite symmetrical' position in the picture above with respect to the box vellum windows, so next to the 2nd big window). It's on a slightly longer pole than the WS68 (only 0.4m more). The data - from a couple of days of low winds anyway - now suggests pretty close alignment between the two sensors. Which I guess is good news, and would suggest the WS80 is OK and it was indeed just some freaky gusty bits of the previous site maybe. There's a few variations (this data is from 5min intervals aggregated by weewx using 4s/16s interval data from sensors), interesting difference in direction that flips around. I'm pretty sure I have both sensors lined up on north within a few degrees.
Have to see how this performs now over time and with higher winds sustained/gust...
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Good day,
Since cold weather started here (Montréal, Canada) it seems that erroneous peak wind values were reported (once a month) when heavy precipitation occurs. See pics below. I have to mention that I have the latest WS80 model with a mesh on the sonic surface.
stratus13
Nov2020 (heavy rain event, peak 127km/h)
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Dec2020 (heavy rain event, peak 87 km/h)
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Jan 2021 (heavy snow event, peak 144 km/h)
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Hi , i got 3 wind data errors this month...(another 2 in december 2020) all of them high winds...same errors in console and gw1000 :sad: [ You are not allowed to view attachments ]
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Ultrasonic is known to have problems in very cold weather with snow/rain.
Can you advise if you were using the heat plate?
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Bonjour Mandrake,
Right, forgot this important detail! No I'm not using the heat plate, logisitic is not easy for my WS80. This said, the first two wind peak events happenned during rain events.
Stratus13
Ultrasonic is known to have problems in very cold weather with snow/rain.
Can you advise if you were using the heat plate?
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Ultrasonic is known to have problems in very cold weather with snow/rain.
Can you advise if you were using the heat plate?
No heat plate ...
Is there a way to correct data in ecowit.net ?
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Unfortunately I don't believe that Ecowitt.net data can be edited in any way
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And again 144 km/h last [ You are not allowed to view attachments ] night.. I think i made a mistake buing this Froggit... 10 years with Davis6152 cabled, Oregon wmr968 before that...no such problems.
Its the 6th time i get this error in 2 months...
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I don't think it is the brand that is the problem. I think it is the experimental nature of the WS80 along with all the other known issues regarding it. I don't see users of the WS68 or WH65 having these issues.
I've never been a fan of the WS80.
- The WS80 is new and experimental in my book
- The WS80 always worried me that perhaps its low price point compared to other ultrasonic brands meant that surely there is a compromise somewhere and we may just be seeing that
- The WS80 requires a heater
- The WS80 makes a compromise in temperature / humidity sensor placement because it needs it for proper wind calculations (granted you can override with a WH32 that Ambient doesn't sell anymore!).
- The WS80 has lower spec for max wind compared to WH65 and WS68
- Lastly although this one is subjective...I think the WS80 is ugly compared to the WS68.
I'm all for digital versus analog...but sometimes perhaps there is nothing wrong with the traditional spinning anemometer. I think where that altrasonic excels is in capturing every miniscule bit of wind gust that might just happen for a split second. I'll admit that I'm not informed enough about ultrasonic anemometers, but I just don't see the appeal. My recommendation is to get the WS68. So many people in the US are upset that they can't get the WS80 except from Ambient and I just don't understand. I don't think the WS80 is a more premium product than the WS68.
Let me just sum it up like this. Let me not even mention the WS80....
What is wrong with the WS68?
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I can already predict some answers. The biggest answer being 4.8 second wind updates instead of 16 seconds. :roll:
Well my answer to that is that you don't need an ultrasonic to deliver 4.8 second wind data. As yourself why can't Ecowitt deliver 4.8 seconds with a spinning anemometer like Davis???? (although Davis is even faster)
I'd be asking Ecowitt for a better WS68.
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I've had my Ambient WS80 installed for almost a month and so far no problemos. I know that's not a lot of time...
I am using the heat plate with the adapter plugged in.
Also I'm not in a high wind area, so if it did spike I'd know it.
But that said, I have seen a few people on Ambient's facebook page complain of randomly high gust peaks at a similar increment of once a month or so. So it does seem like an issue for some.
The WS80 I installed didn't come into stock until mid-January. Any chance this might be an 'older model' issue?
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Its entirely possible that its a software issue. The WS80 does actually have a USB port (covered by a rubber bung) allowing for updates though none have ever been publicly acknowledged.
Its possible that Ecowitt have continued to improve the code in the production WS80's over time.
My only observation of a 'funny' nature has been that the ultrasonic element of tha package is more sensitive to available power than the rest of the sensor package. ie the wind will stop being measured when the supercap is empty and the backup AA power cells reach a certain voltage but the overall WS80 will continue to report data to the home console etc
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The best WS ever had...i will recomend it to everybody...7th 144kmh error [ You are not allowed to view attachments ] in 60 days...considering sending back to Froggit...
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The best WS ever had...i will recomend it to everybody...7th 144kmh error in 60 days...considering sending back to Froggit...
Well... here we go again. This is my second WS80. The first one I had I got an anomaly that started this post and I sent it back to Froggit. They tested it and said it was working fine, although to their credit they sent me a brand new one anyway. That one has been working fine for a month until today.
I got a sustained spike - same value as you @ullises a 144kph and 0 degrees angle spike. This time for a good couple of hours. I was about to start the process of taking it down to reset (I also have a nuts "remote" reset idea, another story) but eventually it seemed to settle back down to normal again. Now this time I know its not the actual wind because I have the WS68 nearby and working perfectly. I've attached both graphs below, plus a pic of the WS80 close up and the new mounts for both sensors. I think I'll email Lucy again to see if I can help with with them to figure out what's going on. I can't believe this is just me being super unlucky there must be some design issue.
I've also noticed it is correlated with moderate rain events and gusty conditions - see the graphs - so maybe the sensor is getting disrupted by water somehow, I don't know.
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That's an in interesting observation you make Wardie. It's hard to tell on the graphs from other users that include rain rate if there's a direct correlation because of a lack of info, but on yours it seems like a strong possibility.
I looked back at my rain rates since I've had my WS80 from Ambient. I haven't had this wind spike issue yet, but then my rain rates haven't gone over .87 inches per hour.
I'll be on the lookout for the spike if I do get a significant rain rate, especially in this colder time of year. I don't know if temperature plays a part in the spike, but we'll post the data if it happens to us.
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I don't understand why companies are bothering to continue with ultrasonic anemometers?! They are flawed, simple as that. The Weatherflow ones are exactly the same, and Davis' are also prone to crazy readings in extreme elements.
Save your money and stick to the traditional wind cups and vane.
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I don't understand why companies are bothering to continue with ultrasonic anemometers?! They are flawed, simple as that. The Weatherflow ones are exactly the same, and Davis' are also prone to crazy readings in extreme elements.
Save your money and stick to the traditional wind cups and vane.
I'm not sure the odd erroneous value is enough to warrant calling all ultrasonic anemometers flawed. I personally gravitated towards the WS80 because I was interested in a device without moving parts. Here in Atlantic Canada, our winters are long and nasty; most of our precip is freezing rain and/or wet snow followed by rapid deep-freezes. Essentially, everything is encrusted in multiple layers of ice for months on end so unless you clean off anything you deem important immediately after each storm, it will be rendered useless until spring.
I would have preferred the WS68 with its cool looking spinning cups and moving weather vane but wasn't confident it would be able to operate without significant downtime in this climate so I chose the WS80 with its built in heater. So far, it has performed without interruption (and no erroneous readings) since I put it up in early January. My WS40 on the other hand :roll: I guess it's flawed.
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Glad to hear that!
By the way some folks have modded the WS40 with a low level heater to keep that functioning in your more extreme climates.
I think that's a cool mod that Ecowitt should consider for a future variant of the WS40 rain gauge.
If you search I am sure that you will find it on here.
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I'm not sure the odd erroneous value is enough to warrant calling all ultrasonic anemometers flawed. I personally gravitated towards the WS80 because I was interested in a device without moving parts. Here in Atlantic Canada, our winters are long and nasty; most of our precip is freezing rain and/or wet snow followed by rapid deep-freezes. Essentially, everything is encrusted in multiple layers of ice for months on end so unless you clean off anything you deem important immediately after each storm, it will be rendered useless until spring.
In those conditions do you find the top of the WS80 dome stays clear enough for the solar panels to function? I'd be concerned about that frosting over and limiting the power into the PV cells, eventually draining the batteries. From what I saw in a cold spell here (well, relative for UK) the heater kept the area of the sensor clear OK but I doubt it was transmitting much heat up to the top section of the device... which you can see in the awesome thermal imaging in this post #59 here:
https://www.wxforum.net/index.php?topic=40977.msg422578#msg422578
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I'm not sure the odd erroneous value is enough to warrant calling all ultrasonic anemometers flawed.
I think you should do some searching then.. it's not the "odd" value, there's discussions regarding all ultrasonic anemometers, Netatmo, WeatherFlow, Davis.. they all suffer the same problems.
Rain and airborne debris in strong winds are a substantial pitfall for them.
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Glad to hear that!
By the way some folks have modded the WS40 with a low level heater to keep that functioning in your more extreme climates.
I think that's a cool mod that Ecowitt should consider for a future variant of the WS40 rain gauge.
If you search I am sure that you will find it on here.
Thanks. Yes I'm in the process of adding a heater to my WS40. I've read the (very long) thread on the Davis area of the forum and got some ideas. Sadly, the WS40's bucket is tiny in comparison to the Davis so a reptile heater cord will not fit. Got some Nichrome wire which I think will do the trick.
In those conditions do you find the top of the WS80 dome stays clear enough for the solar panels to function? I'd be concerned about that frosting over and limiting the power into the PV cells, eventually draining the batteries. From what I saw in a cold spell here (well, relative for UK) the heater kept the area of the sensor clear OK but I doubt it was transmitting much heat up to the top section of the device... which you can see in the awesome thermal imaging in this post #59 here:
https://www.wxforum.net/index.php?topic=40977.msg422578#msg422578
The top of the WS80 can stay iced up for quite a few days after a storm but I use Energizer Lithiums in the unit so I'm not worried about power. I'll change them out once a year.
I think you should do some searching then.. it's not the "odd" value, there's discussions regarding all ultrasonic anemometers, Netatmo, WeatherFlow, Davis.. they all suffer the same problems.
I've read all the topics I can and I'm aware of the issues. I'm not saying ultrasonic anemometers are without fault, just that like any device subject to the whims of mother nature, there's no perfect one for every climate. My snowblower, which is expressly designed to deal with winter, is always needing maintenance and repairs: carburetor icing, belts slipping, ice build-up in the chute, throttle cables frozen and stuck, shear pins...sheared etc. etc. etc. Is it faulty? Nah, it's just that our climate is extremely hard on anything. Speaking of, the attached pic is what my car looked like yesterday (today it's covered in more snow). :lol:
Rain and airborne debris in strong winds are a substantial pitfall for them.
About the only type of weather we don't get here. Winds over 60 Km/h are rare in my immediate area so rain being driven sideways is not common. Snow flying sideways and every which way? We get truckloads and so far, no devious snowflake has caused any crazy readings. Must be something to do with raindrops.
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There was some tips here for the ws40 heater mod:
https://www.wxforum.net/index.php?topic=38366.0
I am sure there was some more posts that showed the mod in place but I cant seem to find them for now
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The best WS ever had...i will recomend it to everybody...7th 144kmh error in 60 days...considering sending back to Froggit...
I've also noticed it is correlated with moderate rain events and gusty conditions - see the graphs - so maybe the sensor is getting disrupted by water somehow, I don't know.
very simply, this is the problem. There isn't a solution to this, also ecowitt/fineoffset know this.
I hope in a new version of a ws68 with stainless construction for surviving in every condition [tup]
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How funny, I was just catching up on the forum and reading this thread. I had another spike a couple of days ago, again correlated with medium winds (say 30-50kph) and a rain shower. But I didn’t have time to post it yet. I just went to my HP2551C and look... reasonably stormy outside and just started raining...
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And here’s the data from the last two spikes. Given that I have this all on dashboards I can easily see the correlation with rain events (dark blue line, top) and it is there - at least for me. Also now I can compare it to my adjacent WS68 (light blue lines) vs WS80 (pink lines) which is plotted on the same graphs.
I’m also really thinking I should switch by upload of data to public web services to the WS68.
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I am sorry that you are seeing these errors.
I really cannot understand how I am so lucky not to have seen this behaviour.
Apart from the low battery situation I have observed mine really has been faultless.
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I am sorry that you are seeing these errors.
I really cannot understand how I am so lucky not to have seen this behaviour.
Apart from the low battery situation I have observed mine really has been faultless.
Lucy too me that there are apparently two slightly different versions of the WS80 although hard to tell them apart externally. I’m trying to ascertain which I have from the dates from Froggit but n luck so far... I’ll keep talking to Lucy to see where it leads... she suspected both my original and replacement WS80 were the older type. But I have no details behind that.
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Well you cant get any older than mine as it was a pre-production unit and is slightly differerent from production. It does not have a heat plate or the screening over the sensors for instance.
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Well bit of an update on this... With the help of @mauro63 (thanks) we talked to the Fine Offset techs. Looks like it could be caused by excess water build up around the sensor. So anyway upon advice I've just applied a liberal coating of lubricant to both the sensors and the gauze to see what happens. No rain as yet, but wind data reporting looks normal. Interesting to see if this is a workaround.
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Looking at the lubricant you used, a dry PTFE, can't in my head, hurt. :)
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Well bit of an update on this... With the help of @mauro63 (thanks) we talked to the Fine Offset techs. Looks like it could be caused by excess water build up around the sensor. So anyway upon advice I've just applied a liberal coating of lubricant to both the sensors and the gauze to see what happens. No rain as yet, but wind data reporting looks normal. Interesting to see if this is a workaround.
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you've put the ptfe directly on transducer?
please keep us updated, it will be very useful for many ws80 owners! UU
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you've put the ptfe directly on transducer?
please keep us updated, it will be very useful for many ws80 owners! UU
Yes that is what I did, as advised. I will see what happens. Need some decent April showers to test it out! Unlike the flakes of snow (!!!) today in Hertfordshire, not the Highlands.
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I will jump in only due to my previous quality control calibration and process capability experiences.
Data is data. The machine does not fabricate or create random data. As others noted, debris, water, moisture,pole vibrations, a variety of interferences likely, but the device is highly unlikely to create a random stray data point electronically. The SENSOR responds to an environment.
Related to global warming analytics there were researchers who discarded spurious data without considering the validity. It is as much art as science to say a data element doesn't fit and could should be discarded. Maybe it was a real reading and should not be discarded. The scientist has to have some awareness if the data point is possible, not just likely.
There was an extensive thread related to rain measurement variability. I won't call it error. It is variability.
So, given the nature of the site placement and adjacent structures, it is possible there are turbulences which mimic the readings shown.
It is risky science to say it is bad data.
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I do understand the sensor point you make but the instrument is clearly in some situations not accurately measuring the real wind velocity through it, for whatever reason. If I was experiencing sustained 144kph winds around my house I would know about it! I also have a second sensor nearby to compare.
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I do understand the sensor point you make but the instrument is clearly in some situations not accurately measuring the real wind velocity through it, for whatever reason. If I was experiencing sustained 144kph winds around my house I would know about it! I also have a second sensor nearby to compare.
The reading is the reading. I doubt it suffers a electrostatic discharge in the circuitry which sparks an erroneous voltage variance etc etc
Note vibration harmonics are additive. A steel pole vibrating at a frequency will.add frequency to sensor values. A sheet of water flowing has 100 times the density of the air. Conservation of momentum.says a sheet.of water.will induce vibration 100x bigger than air.
I am not saying that is the speed.of air. I am only saying.that is the reading the sensor experienced. The challenge is figure.out the root cause..
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Another beautiful data reporting... [ You are not allowed to view attachments ] [ You are not allowed to view attachments ]
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Well, after 4 months of owning the WS80, I can now say I've joined the 'anomaly' club.
(https://www.wxforum.net/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=41294.0;attach=48961;image)
What's strange is that it wasn't raining or even all that windy; a pretty benign weather day. The image above shows the huge wind speed spike as well as the single point of extreme direction change which likely didn't actually occur. The only thing I can think of is that my mast isn't the most sturdy and when I looked at it, it had a slight but fairly rhythmic sway going on.
Regardless of the reason, this type of data anomaly should be trivial to filter out as it's clearly so far outside the surrounding data-points that it can be nothing but erroneous. Of course that would mean the data would have to be filtered as opposed to just reading the raw sensor data and uploading it like it seems to do now.
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I guess the question we have not ruled out (or at least I have not noticed) is whether this is a question of bad data being transmitted by the WS80 or of bad data being received/interpreted by the console/GW1000?
For those that have seen these anomolies has it been observed on say both the HP2551 and a GW1000 at the same time as data points? that would indicate it is indeed a WS80 issue.
Otherwise I am just wondering if its the reception software that is occasionally glitching!
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On an italian forum (https://forum.meteonetwork.it/stazioni-meteorologiche-ecowitt-fine-offset/170725-lettura-raffica-anomala-ws80-2.html#post1061370534) was reported that there is a production batch of ws80 that has this problem ( not every ws80 but most of them )
On the same forum user DVD82 (https://forum.meteonetwork.it/stazioni-meteorologiche-ecowitt-fine-offset/170144-registrazione-raffiche-anomale-froggit-hp1000se-6.html#post1061363726) reported that the spike appeared both on the display and on the gateway
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I've been watching this thread for a while because I now have a WS80 and was wondering if this might affect me? Mine is new and has only been active this month, but so far I've not seen any such spikes. I got mine direct from Ecowitt and it arrived just a few days before it went live. What sort of frequency have folks seen this? Is it often or rare and how long should I go before deciding this might not apply to my WS80?
Stuart
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On an italian forum (https://forum.meteonetwork.it/stazioni-meteorologiche-ecowitt-fine-offset/170725-lettura-raffica-anomala-ws80-2.html#post1061370534) was reported that there is a production batch of ws80 that has this problem ( not every ws80 but most of them )
On the same forum user DVD82 (https://forum.meteonetwork.it/stazioni-meteorologiche-ecowitt-fine-offset/170144-registrazione-raffiche-anomale-froggit-hp1000se-6.html#post1061363726) reported that the spike appeared both on the display and on the gateway
As you can see from my posts I see the same anomalies on both the GW1000 and the HP2551C.
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What sort of frequency have folks seen this?
868MHz! Sorry could not resist that.
No set frequency, but all my events are correlated with rain and I would say its only happened once every couple of months. Only one time did I have to physically reset the unit to stop it, other times it seems to resolve itself.
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OK, thanks for the replies so that definitely confirms its an anomaly caused by the sensor itself....not that I doubted folks, just that it occurred to me we had not established if it was any other cause!
Its known that ultrasonic can get upset by rain and I understand that the hydrophobic plate on the bottom of the sensor chamber was an attempt to improve that situation.
Personally my model which is pre-production does not have this and the bottom ultrasonic emitters/detectors are exposed and ironically I have yet to observe this anomaly which I am guessing is more down to luck.
However, I would think that it should be possible to code for these anomalies within the GW1000 and HP2551. The really old FineOffset stations that used to use USB to output the data were notorious for occasionally chucking out a rubbish/spurious value and software such as Cumulus had error trapping coded to ignore such values. What we need is the equivalent of this in the receiving stations. It should not be too difficult one would think to compare the previous value and make a value decision on the data quality for wind and direction.
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It should not be too difficult one would think to compare the previous value and make a value decision on the data quality for wind and direction.
That might be difficult with the ones from Wardie, as his don't appear to be singular spikes on occasion , but a plateau that stays over a number of readings.
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One simple filter is to discard every sample greater then 143Km/h ( as most, but not all, spikes are 144Km/h ).
This also discards true ( but not so common, in my opinion ) 144Kh/h gusts.
But true solution is that Fine Offset addresses the cause of this malfunction ( the fact that sometimes the unit is 'stuck' in some condition means that something really wrong is happening in these units )
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Hi!
One simple filter is to discard every sample greater then 143Km/h ( as most, but not all, spikes are 144Km/h ).
I don't see how a simple filter would fix the problem.
My first thought was to use the last wind gust to assess whether a wind gust of 144kmh appears possible:
if current wind gust = 144kmh and last wind gust <100 {
current wind gust = last wind gust
}
The station would have to temporarily save the last value in the RAM.
But the peaks are unfortunately not always exactly 144kmh but are variable. I already saw pictures in this thread with peaks of 87 kmh, 94.3kmh, 127kmh and 131kmh.
I also saw a picture on which the 144kmh were displayed over a very long period (2 hours).
I cannot output the value from two hours ago for two hours - that would not be a filter, it would be a lie.
Sometimes (but apparently not always!) windspeed is also affected in addition to wind gust.
And a picture can also be seen here that after a 144kmh peak, values that are clearly too low are output over a longer period of time.
At the moment I really don't know how to solve the problem in software afterwards.
Something has to be tinkered with in the firmware of the WS80 sensor. However, this only applies to future devices because we probably cannot change the firmware of the sensor ourselves.
And - as already communicated here in the forum - the Davis-US anemometers also share (https://www.wxforum.net/index.php?topic=39214.msg404640#msg404640) these (https://www.wxforum.net/index.php?topic=39214.msg415444#msg415444) problems (https://www.wetterstationsforum.info/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=169).
So maybe an ultrasonic sensor is not suitable as an anemometer after all?
Oliver
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Sometimes (but apparently not always!) windspeed is also affected in addition to wind gust.
And also direction seems, for me, to go to zero degrees when it happens.
And a picture can also be seen here that after a 144kmh peak, values that are clearly too low are output over a longer period of time.
Yes I had noticed that. My guess is that there must be some sort of auto-calibration going on from the raw sensor values, because it seems to rectify itself over time. But that is just speculation and I’m not an engineer nor have any knowledge of these sensors.
At the moment I really don't know how to solve the problem in software afterwards.
Something has to be tinkered with in the firmware of the WS80 sensor. However, this only applies to future devices because we probably cannot change the firmware of the sensor ourselves.
At the end of the day I would have thought software in the device is the way to go. Whatever algorithms are being used to derive the wind data could maybe be enhanced to compensate somehow for such conditions. Unless, when there is water in certain places, the sensor simply cannot return any meaningful data. But even reporting a NULL, if it can detect the sensor has an error condition, would be better than a false value - the 144kph feels a bit like a “max” output.
It does have a USB port so I would hope is upgradable in the field somehow. I have offered to try that.
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Wardie, from your previous graphs, some of your peaks last a while , hours in a flat high level. As Olicat alluded to, that would be almost impossible to correct in software (unless there is an actual software error) , that to me is a direct sensor issue .
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Trying to workaround the problem via software is almost impossible. WeatherFlow spent a lot of time and effort with algorithms trying to solve the same issues, but it still occurs. Hydrophobic coatings are actually deemed a poor idea, as it can exacerbate the problem. Hydrophlic is the way to go.. Hydrophobic coatings cause water to bead up and that can add to the issue, whereas hydrophilic flattens water droplets out.
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What sort of frequency have folks seen this?
868MHz! Sorry could not resist that.
No set frequency, but all my events are correlated with rain and I would say its only happened once every couple of months. Only one time did I have to physically reset the unit to stop it, other times it seems to resolve itself.
My only anomaly occurred when it wasn't raining so who knows :-k
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I confirm that this is a problem unfortunately common to all sensors of this type, the deposition of drops of water on the transducers or in their range of action can cause such distortions both in the speed and in the direction of the wind due to a sudden incorrect assessment of air density, the main parameter in the operation of ultrasonic anemometers.
Apart from possible software corrections, already perfectly described, Fine Offset is working on the hardware part to improve this aspect, and trying to limit the occurrence of this problem as much as possible, which I repeat, is not a defect of the Fine Offset stations but a common problem for this kind of sensors
sorry for my English
Mauro
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Looks like I'm joining the club. Only had mine a matter of days and getting 40 m/s winds on a rainy day. I'm a wee bit concerned that being in the UK I had to buy direct from Ecowitt in China, is this £100 down the drain?
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Has anyone tried it indoors?... I am kidding :)
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An umbrella should be enough ; - )
@sunnysideal
Could you post another screenshot in the next few hours? It seems like it is slowly recovering
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An umbrella should be enough ; - )
@sunnysideal
Could you post another screenshot in the next few hours? It seems like it is slowly recovering
Here you are. Interestingly the rain hasn't stopped yet...
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I have read a lot of professional comments, no doubt
EVERY ultrasonic wind sensor has the same problems, nobody can admit to had solved, the most professional sensors use a software correction, that removes the bad data before the user can read them, Fine Offset is trying the hardest way, and I mean to solve the problem on hardware, in order do not create problems to the computational algorithms
Mauro
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I had a weatherflow for a couple of months, no issues with the wind like this, just the rain detection on that was pretty awful.
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I had a weatherflow for a couple of months, no issues with the wind like this, just the rain detection on that was pretty awful.
I know, Fine offset has taken the decision to use software correction as the last attempt, we are working a lot on hardware to prevent or reduce the formation of drops on the transducers and the lower area of the sensor
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Mauro
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@sunnysideal
False alarm, no recovery in action, only a square pulse with a small dip, pulse width roughly 1h45'
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This is a copy of my answer in a thread on the CumulusMX forum (https://cumulus.hosiene.co.uk/viewtopic.php?p=159044#p159044) on the same problem @wardie had.
@Gyvate, @Carbonara :
I read the whole, interesting, tread. I would like to separate the spikes which are observed and the problem which is observed like by @wardie. That is similar to the problem I have. I don't think additional photo's will add anything. My photo's explaining the situation with water visible are not taken and my problem was of 5 days ago.
But let's be clear about one thing: the problem did not go away by itself (I had the longest duration, roughly nine/ten hours without touching the device). When I solved the problem, I took it down, emptied the cup (that's what it was) and the measurements resumed. I did not touch or reset software. Software will not solve this, that seems more something for incidental peak values.
I don't want to get in @Mapantzes argument that the ultrasone equipment is faulty and worthless by definition. I disagree. But apparently in some weather conditions water gathers on and below the gauze and if there is little wind it does not evaporate. Therefore I suggested a redesign to drain the water. I don't know the function of the gauze (protection of a sensor below?) but I am sure alternatives can be found. If there were a drain surely some cleaning routine would be necessary (it actually is necessary for any wind device).
Do photo's exist of the space below the gauze?
I'll put this response to the wxforum thread as well.
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Untill it will be solved, an option to edit and corect the wind graphic in ecowwit.net would be fair.
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Untill it will be solved, an option to edit and corect the wind graphic in ecowwit.net would be fair.
Well… I’ve just applied the firmware update to the WS80 (the original hardware design) so will see if that fixes it as claimed…
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No fix for me.
It was ok for two months but i got 2 errors in the last week.
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Unfortunately, one of my WS80s has also been affected. There were two big peaks with an unrealistic value. One for sure when there was rainfall and windy weather.
Previously, we had heavy snowfall in early April and one of my ultrasounds had no heating. Big disruptions started to appear regularly. The measurement could hang up for several hours. After a few days, the disturbance suddenly returned due to higher temperature and rainfall and strong winds. My second WS80 works fine and I have not noticed an anomaly. They were bought at a similar time, around February, March 2022.
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Try the new fw. version (march 2022 1.2.1) if your stations is near home (I hope)
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Unfortunately, one of my WS80s has also been affected. There were two big peaks with an unrealistic value. One for sure when there was rainfall and windy weather.
Previously, we had heavy snowfall in early April and one of my ultrasounds had no heating. Big disruptions started to appear regularly. The measurement could hang up for several hours. After a few days, the disturbance suddenly returned due to higher temperature and rainfall and strong winds. My second WS80 works fine and I have not noticed an anomaly. They were bought at a similar time, around February, March 2022.
Read this post https://www.wxforum.net/index.php?topic=43701.0
Email Ecowitt support@ecowitt.com with your id number, they will advise accordingly.
The release notes for the latest firmware do not suggest a fix for an error condition.
As yet I've not applied to mine, waiting for settled weather to take my laptop to the sensor.
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I guess the question we have not ruled out (or at least I have not noticed) is whether this is a question of bad data being transmitted by the WS80 or of bad data being received/interpreted by the console/GW1000?
For those that have seen these anomolies has it been observed on say both the HP2551 and a GW1000 at the same time as data points? that would indicate it is indeed a WS80 issue.
Otherwise I am just wondering if its the reception software that is occasionally glitching!
I'm late to the party on this, only having installed a WS80 a month or so back, I have both the GW1100 and the console.
My data started spiking this morning - temp up to 60 degrees, wind to 143.8, humidity 1% .... A stinking hot day.
This data was being "received" by the GW1100 and pushed to my software. HOWEVER the console data was fine, no issues with spiking. I powered down the G1100 and when it restarted it was fine.
So my data spike was definitely NOT the WS80.
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To add the litany I've had a WS80 installed for 10 months and had little but trouble. The temp/humidity sensor failed after a few months and it had an early version of that for which there were no replacements so the whole unit was swapped out. After that I've had those recurrent and persistent wind spikes on and off for a while and this weekend the temp sensor failed again. On taking it apart (no small job as it's mounted 6 metres up) and re-seating the sensor and resetting it's started working again but the radiation sensor has now stopped reporting completely. I also noticed when I had it down that the clear plastic on top had started to cloud so I suspect it would not have been good for much longer anyway.
There's no obvious pattern to the wind spikes but both times the temp sensor failed it was early in the morning and we had an extremely heavy dew so I suspect condensation is the culprit. It's in an exposed location just over a mile from a SW coast in South Devon so it does get quite a bit of stick but I'd expect a lot more than a year out of it. My cheap ass Maplin FineOffset WS lasted 5 or so years in a similar location. (I also noticed recently in the specs that it's max wind measurement is 40m/s, so 89.5mph. This is perilously close to the genuine 84.5mph it recorded in february so perhaps not really a suitable sensor for my location.)
I like the ecowitt modular design and much more reasonable price than Davis so I'll probably stick with them but this unit is going in the bin now to be replaced with the WS68 and the separate temp sensor.