Author Topic: Adding restrictor to Davis VP2 w/Tipping Spoon  (Read 1611 times)

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Offline miraculon

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Adding restrictor to Davis VP2 w/Tipping Spoon
« on: August 31, 2021, 09:34:30 AM »
As others have noted in various child boards here, I have seen exaggerated rain on the VP2 with Aerocone/Tipping Spoon at high rain rates.

At steady gentle rain, I get excellent correlation between the CoCoRaHS, Novalynx 8" TBR and the Davis.

If I don't really care about accurate "rain rate" as reported, I was wondering about restricting the flow at the bottom of the funnel. This would allow the funnel to act as a buffer and keep the heavy rain from over counting the rain.

The only thing I can think of is that the funnel might actually overflow and I would miss a lot of rain. Has anyone experimented with this or have any thoughts about this?

Greg H.


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Offline DaleReid

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Re: Adding restrictor to Davis VP2 w/Tipping Spoon
« Reply #1 on: August 31, 2021, 12:27:06 PM »
I have some leaves and mud daubers that I can send over to you for the funnel restriction!

On a more serious note, what volume does the new catchment funnel on the Davis hold?  I'd think an extraordinary rate would be needed to overflow one, but I'm used to looking at the funnels for RainWise, Novalynx and others that can hold a quart or gallon before filling, as is proven by the aforementioned leaves and mud daubers.

I'm curious as to what you might come up with for a restrictor?  Can you machine a little plastic collar to friction fit inside the funnel outlet that would be say 1/2 the area of what is there?  Or on my one old Rainwise, there is a cotter key that holds a small (almost useless) plastic screen in the bottom of the funnel, and that does reduce the flow.  Can you try something like that which would be easily removable, and also not interfere with the deposition of the collected rain into the tipper? 

Just thinking out loud.  Dale
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Offline ocala

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Re: Adding restrictor to Davis VP2 w/Tipping Spoon
« Reply #2 on: August 31, 2021, 06:06:44 PM »
I did that exact same thing with very good results. The rain rates were useless but the totals matched coco almost to the number. Just a couple tenths off +/-.
I used masonry sealer. Just covered the hole, let dry and used a very small drill bit to make a hole. It eventually wore away and I had to do again but something like a small round piece of plastic with a small hole  you could super glue to the cone would do.
One problem is depending on the size of the hole debris will clog it up. Long after the rain is done it will still be dripping. I eventually just scrapped the idea all together because of that.
Really considering a rainwise as they seem to match the coco from reading the reports here.  Just a matter of pulling the trigger, but do I really need 2 rain gauges reporting the same thing.


Offline miraculon

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Re: Adding restrictor to Davis VP2 w/Tipping Spoon
« Reply #3 on: September 01, 2021, 07:36:51 AM »
I did that exact same thing with very good results. The rain rates were useless but the totals matched coco almost to the number. Just a couple tenths off +/-.
I used masonry sealer. Just covered the hole, let dry and used a very small drill bit to make a hole. It eventually wore away and I had to do again but something like a small round piece of plastic with a small hole  you could super glue to the cone would do.
One problem is depending on the size of the hole debris will clog it up. Long after the rain is done it will still be dripping. I eventually just scrapped the idea all together because of that.
Really considering a rainwise as they seem to match the coco from reading the reports here.  Just a matter of pulling the trigger, but do I really need 2 rain gauges reporting the same thing.

Just a couple tenths off +/-. I assume that you actually meant 1/100ths...

Thanks for the feedback. I will probably buy another "Aerocone" or two for experimentation. I might fill the end with epoxy and drill it out.

Also, Dale, thanks for your comments and observations.

Greg H.


Blitzortung Stations #706 and #1682
CoCoRaHS: MI-PI-1
CWOP: CW4114 and KE8DAF-13
WU: KMIROGER7
Amateur Radio Callsign: KE8DAF

Offline johnd

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Re: Adding restrictor to Davis VP2 w/Tipping Spoon
« Reply #4 on: September 01, 2021, 07:54:27 AM »
You could imagine a rain gauge with 2 adjacent outlets at the bottom - one a small-bore tube right at the bottom and the second one a wider bore tube but with its inlet maybe eg 3-10mm higher than the small bore one. The idea would be that with 'normal' rain only the small bore one would be used; but with rain of high enough intensity to cause partial filling of the funnel then once the water level had breached the larger bore inlet then that would become the primary outflow for the rain and allow normal emptying and rain rate values for as long as the intense rain lasted.

Need a little design and engineering to optimise, but might well work OK.
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Offline CSB

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Re: Adding restrictor to Davis VP2 w/Tipping Spoon
« Reply #5 on: September 01, 2021, 09:18:05 AM »
Started using this years back after the plastic debris screen that Davis had blew away. It comes from Home Depot, here's the link. This will restrict the flow and keep the debris out. its one of 3 that HD offers.
https://www.homedepot.com/p/DANCO-2-1-2-in-Mesh-Bathroom-Sink-Strainer-in-Stainless-Steel-88820/203675133

https://www.homedepot.com/p/DANCO-2-3-4-in-Mesh-Tub-Strainer-in-Stainless-Steel-88821/100391403

https://www.homedepot.com/p/DANCO-4-1-2-in-OD-Kitchen-Mesh-Sink-Strainer-in-Stainless-Steel-2-Pack-88822P/308483594

« Last Edit: September 01, 2021, 12:21:38 PM by CSB »

Offline DaleReid

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Re: Adding restrictor to Davis VP2 w/Tipping Spoon
« Reply #6 on: September 01, 2021, 11:43:23 AM »
CSB: 
Yes, those are great.  I have Menards locally and they carry the same thing.  Stainless steel that really doesn't rust, and helps considerably.  Of course the little 'hat' sticks up, not down, in the rain funnels. 

I bought two different sizes and the little ones work best for the Rainwise and other while the big tipper got the bigger one.

It hasn't been perfect, I get some fine slimey stuff from the oak and maple trees that seems to get in there and when wet disintegrates to a gel, almost and is excellent at blocking the orifice.  The screen keeps the leaves from making a sheet-like blockage over the drain hole.  And it keeps the bugs out when it isn't raining, which wasn't for weeks on end here for the summer.

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Offline CSB

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Re: Adding restrictor to Davis VP2 w/Tipping Spoon
« Reply #7 on: September 01, 2021, 12:17:33 PM »
Dale, you mentioned the "Hat" sticks up?????? This one from Home Depot fits perfectly into the collector, Hat down. This one measures 2" across. The first link I sent the strainer is to big?? A person might be better off with one of these other two.
https://www.homedepot.com/p/DANCO-2-3-4-in-Mesh-Tub-Strainer-in-Stainless-Steel-88821/100391403

https://www.homedepot.com/p/DANCO-2-1-2-in-Mesh-Bathroom-Sink-Strainer-in-Stainless-Steel-88820/203675133

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« Last Edit: September 01, 2021, 12:26:18 PM by CSB »

Offline davidmc36

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Re: Adding restrictor to Davis VP2 w/Tipping Spoon
« Reply #8 on: September 01, 2021, 03:43:58 PM »
Turn the hat over so it is a peaked deflector and things will rest above the ring and not clog.

The way it is will be a net to catch debris and cover the exit.......no?

The hat is what came with one of mine. I thought it was factory and seemed most logical to put it in peak up.

Offline CSB

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Re: Adding restrictor to Davis VP2 w/Tipping Spoon
« Reply #9 on: September 01, 2021, 04:43:04 PM »
David, Ok, I understand

Offline Mattk

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Re: Adding restrictor to Davis VP2 w/Tipping Spoon
« Reply #10 on: September 02, 2021, 05:40:53 AM »
Same subject, different year. Just needs some decent thinking, it's not that difficult

https://www.wxforum.net/index.php?topic=32511.msg328243#msg328243

Offline CSB

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Re: Adding restrictor to Davis VP2 w/Tipping Spoon
« Reply #11 on: September 02, 2021, 08:28:08 AM »
 [tup]

Offline Aardvark

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Re: Adding restrictor to Davis VP2 w/Tipping Spoon
« Reply #12 on: September 02, 2021, 10:37:47 AM »
Ah  I don't know why people put their rain units up on their roofs, tall poles and wonder why their values are not good.  You need to clean those things out regularily.  things blow into the can,fall in or crawl.   I have the strainer in there too and yes it works better than the cheap thing Davis puts there, but you have to clean it out.

When I am in the yard I walk by take off the cone, look inside and clean it out, put it back and do it a while later.  Mine is at the recommended height.

Oh well have fun...  just clean it out

Offline klschmidt

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Re: Adding restrictor to Davis VP2 w/Tipping Spoon
« Reply #13 on: September 03, 2021, 11:49:13 AM »
The new Davis tipping spoon works well but overreports during high rain rates.
The old Davis tipping bucket underreports during high rain rates.
How comparable are the errors (in opposite directions)? If I were to install one of each (in parallel), I wonder how close to recording double the actual rainfall the station would be. Can't set the tipping bucket size to .005" in Weatherlink #-o If the software cannot overcome the double reporting issue, some sort of circuitry that sent a signal after detecting two may be needed.

Offline DRoberts

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Re: Adding restrictor to Davis VP2 w/Tipping Spoon
« Reply #14 on: September 03, 2021, 05:34:10 PM »
My tipping spoon was +.21" over what my two Stratus (CoCoRaHS) gauges reported in a heavy period of rain yesterday. Coco was 1.19 and the tipping spoon Davis was 1.40". They are about 10 feet apart.

Never had that kind of discrepancy before yesterday. And I had checked the cone the day before. Usually in a hard rain I will see a hundredth or two.

Going to have to monitor it real closely ... if we get any more rain that is.

Offline Gulfstream

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Re: Adding restrictor to Davis VP2 w/Tipping Spoon
« Reply #15 on: September 21, 2021, 05:39:23 PM »
I have a Davis VP2, my fourth Davis weather station over about 20 years. Let me stipulate at the outset that I am not an atmospheric scientist, physicist, meteorologist, or otherwise credentialed person in meteorology or almost anything else STEM. Let me also stipulate that my instrument siting is less than ideal, at least as measured against specifications by the WMO, for instance. No doubt many of us amateurs are in the same boat.

Recently I changed out my Davis VP2 tipping bucket rain sensor for the newer tipping spoon sensor. It had seemed to me generally, if not every time (oddly), that the Davis tipping buckets under-reported by c 20-30% what I collected in the standard 4" plastic rain gauge we use for the CoCoRaHS project, and which I view as authoritative: no moving parts, no electronics, an none of the associated errors. The tipping spoon in my recent experience has been more accurate than the buckets, ie, more aligned with the plastic gauge. But in a recent very heavy rain, the 4" gauge collected 3.40 inches, while the tipping spoon measured 2.38 inches, significantly less. Others in this thread report the opposite, that the tipping spoon has over-reported heavy rain.

It's unsettling to find reliable reports of substantially different tipping bucket or tipping spoon rain measurements in similar conditions. Presumably factory settings are consistent; it would make sense if discrepancies as measured against some standard (the 4" plastic gauge) were consistent too. They seem not to be.

We also recognize, as the instructions for my NovaLynx rain gauge calibrator advises, that a "rain gauge can only be calibrated to one rainfall rate at a time, and accuracy falls off above and below that rain because of the systematic error." "Tipping bucket rain gauges," the NovaLynx people say, and presumably tipping spoon rain gauges as well, "are subject to a systematic mechanical error which is a function of rain intensity . . . the error is non-linear, so a calibration curve is sometimes used to correct the data."

So there are two issues, one Davis might solve by stating to what rain intensity their gauges are calibrated, calculating the error to which their gauges above and below that intensity are subject, and providing a way to correct for the error. Ideally, Weatherlink would show an "absolute" rain amount as measured by the sensor, but also a "corrected" rain amount number based on compensatory software in the Weatherlink. I don't know what to do about the other issue, that some report the same mechanism, buckets or spoon, variously over-reports or under-reports similar conditions.

This makes me wonder about the "official" measurement instruments at, eg, the National Weather Service, The Met, and similar agencies elsewhere. Are they subject to similar errors? How do they correct for them? Or do they? Surely they do, we think, but do they really, and how do they do it?

Offline Mattk

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Re: Adding restrictor to Davis VP2 w/Tipping Spoon
« Reply #16 on: September 21, 2021, 06:00:49 PM »
...... This makes me wonder about the "official" measurement instruments at, eg, the National Weather Service, The Met, and similar agencies elsewhere. Are they subject to similar errors? How do they correct for them? Or do they? Surely they do, we think, but do they really, and how do they do it?

All tipping bucket type rain instruments (official or otherwise) are not exempt based on design from variable readings being related to variable rain rates which could be why high end systems also collect/store the water coming through the tippers which can provide further analysis and comparison to the electronic amount 

 

anything