Author Topic: Are More Stations Really Needed?  (Read 3088 times)

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Offline Dr Obbins

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Are More Stations Really Needed?
« on: June 06, 2014, 08:50:13 AM »
Yes! This attachment shows  a prime example of how important each existing station is and how new stations could make a significant impact on recording strikes.

Looking at the attached file, this station is currently recording 99.2% of all the lightning strokes in North America. On the last line you can see that 38.6% of these strokes have the minimum number (6) of stations reporting the stroke. This means that if any one of these 6 stations did not exist, 1,835 strokes would not be recorded. Now these 6 stations are not the same 6 station for all of the strokes, so that further emphasizes the importance of each station in the network.

Next look at the signals (28,150) vs. strokes (4,716). This station picked up a total of 23,434 more signals that probably could have been strokes, but 5 other stations did not pick up the signal so they were not counted.

So if you have been thinking about getting a unit - please do. ;) Every station has a major impact on the performance of the whole system. Each unit added will add to the total count of recorded strokes.

Offline PaulMy

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Re: Are More Stations Really Needed?
« Reply #1 on: June 06, 2014, 08:55:21 AM »
Very interesting.  I hope I can be a contributing station in a few weeks.
 
Paul

Offline JonathanW

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Re: Are More Stations Really Needed?
« Reply #2 on: June 06, 2014, 09:12:44 AM »
This is absolutely right.  To add to this, if you look at the raw data files for lightning detection in the U.S. vs. Europe, you can see something very interesting.

For the European log files, the vast majority of strikes are calculated at 10 kA or weaker.

For the U.S. log files, the vast majority of strikes are stronger than 10 kA (and there are a lot fewer).

Now, I don't know how accurate strike current calculations really are (I'd always read the typical strike was closer to 50 kA), but the point is, the higher station density in Europe allows for catching a lot of weaker strikes.  As you say, you need a minimum of six stations to catch strikes, and weaker strikes simply aren't picked up by the minimum number of stations in the U.S.  We catch the bigger ones, but those are the minority.

I've recently posted stories about the Blitzortung network on LinkedIn and Facebook's ham radio groups, as well as a post at American Weather forum.  I still think schools and universities (any places you might have a combination of interest in weather and electronics/soldering) are a possibility.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2014, 09:32:18 AM by n0ym »

Offline JonathanW

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Re: Are More Stations Really Needed?
« Reply #3 on: June 10, 2014, 08:41:14 PM »
I was doing a little research on the National Lightning Detection Network, which evolved in the 80's and 90's (and I think it was taxpayer funded, though, of course, Vaisala now makes money off of subscriptions to the data...but maybe there are extra circumstances).  There are places in the U.S. that Blitzortung's station density already exceeds the NLDN, though of course the latter network includes both TOA and DF sensors.

And the density in Europe puts the NLDN to shame.

The more stations we get in the U.S., the better BO will get!

Offline W3DRM

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Re: Are More Stations Really Needed?
« Reply #4 on: July 14, 2014, 11:40:38 PM »
Today was a good day for lightning here along the SIERRA front. The problem is that only a couple of the many strikes were detected and recorded by the Blitzortung system. I suspect it was simply due to the fact that they were most likely low-intensity strikes and weren't detected by enough stations. IF only we had MORE STATIONS in the west, this probably wouldn't be a problem. The lightning activity was clearly heard on my AM radio most of the afternoon although I did not visibly see any strikes. There was a lightning caused fire about 30 miles south of me in the mountains. It is still being fought as I write this message.
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Offline JonathanW

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Re: Are More Stations Really Needed?
« Reply #5 on: July 15, 2014, 12:24:13 PM »
It won't help the situation in the west, but I understand what may become the first station in Virginia (Charlottesville) is coming along.  Egon sent the kit prior to the summer hiatus, and the builder has constructed both the H-field ferrites (per Don's design) and one amp thus far.

Offline JonathanW

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Re: Are More Stations Really Needed?
« Reply #6 on: July 16, 2014, 08:55:37 AM »
By the way, Don, I think I mentioned it before, but a ham I know with friends in Arizona is spreading the interest around out there.  Detection of potential fire starters, as you say, are a selling point.  Hopefully, we'll see better coverage in the West in several months...

Offline Dr Obbins

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Re: Are More Stations Really Needed?
« Reply #7 on: July 18, 2014, 09:11:46 PM »
My station went live toward the end of March this year. It is now the middle of July and my station has been bumped off the New Stations list. So that's about 1 new station on board per week. With the additional stations added and the changes in the interference programming, the system is recording many more strikes. I used to have ~10% min station strikes, now it is mostly under 2%. I am looking forward to the end of their summer break to see the changes that have been talked about and to the kits go back on sale. We still need many more stations.

Offline Cutty Sark Sailor

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Re: Are More Stations Really Needed?
« Reply #8 on: July 18, 2014, 09:38:26 PM »
1097 hit the board today... near Birmingham Ala... don't know any details..., yet...... 1093 online lists as Maryland, but I think supposed to be in Virginia... two Ontario stations due when Don F gets thru foolin' 'round and ships 'em ....  still need to find 3 or 4 for Lonesome Stan Silversword out in Paradise, and a bunch west of the Big Muddy...
May be another few coming... I think the last of the current kits are being delivered about now....
 


Offline DaleReid

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Re: Are More Stations Really Needed?
« Reply #9 on: July 18, 2014, 11:09:54 PM »
Yeah, I know.

I lost out by not getting my PayPal card out before Egon ran out of stuff.

I will build one and get it to a buddy in Jackson Hole, WY if I can do so before winter sets in.....

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Offline JonathanW

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Re: Are More Stations Really Needed?
« Reply #10 on: July 20, 2014, 10:09:10 AM »
1097 hit the board today... near Birmingham Ala... don't know any details..., yet...... 1093 online lists as Maryland, but I think supposed to be in Virginia... two Ontario stations due when Don F gets thru foolin' 'round and ships 'em ....  still need to find 3 or 4 for Lonesome Stan Silversword out in Paradise, and a bunch west of the Big Muddy...
May be another few coming... I think the last of the current kits are being delivered about now....

Chip (1093) tells me that station may also end up with a friend in Arizona.  Undecided as of yet - Arizona could probably use the coverage more.

Offline Silversword

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Re: Are More Stations Really Needed?
« Reply #11 on: July 20, 2014, 03:39:33 PM »
1097 hit the board today... near Birmingham Ala... don't know any details..., yet...... 1093 online lists as Maryland, but I think supposed to be in Virginia... two Ontario stations due when Don F gets thru foolin' 'round and ships 'em ....  still need to find 3 or 4 for Lonesome Stan Silversword out in Paradise, and a bunch west of the Big Muddy...
May be another few coming... I think the last of the current kits are being delivered about now....

Yep, I agree that we need more stations out west.  Have tried to get some interest but no takers out here in the Pacific area.  We had or having a nice storm passing through the State today but no dots seen on the map as of yet.. My AS3595 is picking up lots of strikes though...

Some day will get more interest in this part of the ocean.

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Offline ddr

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Re: Are More Stations Really Needed?
« Reply #12 on: July 20, 2014, 08:09:42 PM »
I plan on getting a station as soon as they are shipping again.  That will add a station to the Phoenix AZ area. I have put together a kit or two in my time, but I'm not an ace with the soldering gun.  So if anyone out there assembles these things I would be happy to pay you for your time.

Offline DaleReid

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Re: Are More Stations Really Needed?
« Reply #13 on: July 20, 2014, 08:14:24 PM »
I'm sure there is pent up demand.

Any rumors as to when the stuff will be stocked again and the team will start stuffing plastic bags full of goodies?

Mike?

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Offline Cutty Sark Sailor

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Re: Are More Stations Really Needed?
« Reply #14 on: July 21, 2014, 06:18:56 AM »
Welcome Virginia City Highlands Nevada to the Western Net!... Ol' Don in Minden now has a station about 50 miles away,.... talk about perfect...! 

BTW... congratulations to Don --- Golden Wedding Anniversary this past week! How do those Ladies put up with us???? 

==
« Last Edit: July 21, 2014, 06:22:24 AM by Cutty Sark Sailor »
 


Offline W3DRM

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Re: Are More Stations Really Needed?
« Reply #15 on: July 21, 2014, 06:43:14 PM »
Welcome Virginia City Highlands Nevada to the Western Net!... Ol' Don in Minden now has a station about 50 miles away,.... talk about perfect...! 

BTW... congratulations to Don --- Golden Wedding Anniversary this past week! How do those Ladies put up with us???? 

==

Thanks Mike! The simple answer is "yes dear..."  ;)

I also have another ham neighbor who has made contact with Egon requesting a new kit. He has received a response that he is on the waiting list so we will have yet another Nevada station in the coming months. He lives less than a mile from me.

As a side note, we had a pretty intense thunderstorm come through here right in the middle of our anniversary party yesterday afternoon. The lightning was the heaviest I have ever seen in this is area. We had several FLASH-BANG strikes that were extremely close - there was no delay from flash to the thunder. The power momentarily dropped-out but fortunately came right back on. No damage to my place or my radio equipment but, my ham friend had a river running through his ham-shack and garage. He had about 3-inches of mud in both and is currently cleaning things out. There were lots of flooded garages and washed-out driveways. More storms forecast for later today and tomorrow afternoon.
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Offline CF20852

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Re: Are More Stations Really Needed?
« Reply #16 on: July 27, 2014, 11:29:55 AM »
Station 1093 is staying in North Bethesda, MD at least until mid-October, 2014.  As N0YM indicated, I am trying to cultivate interest in the amateur radio community in the Flagstaff, AZ area, near where I hope to relocate when I retire in a few years, and with a colleague in Northern Virginia, a bit east of Manassas.  The Charlottesville, VA location did not work out--my brother expressed polite disinterest.   :?

N0YM has provided me a lot of help, and I hope to have the opportunity to pass along some of the things I've learned (and still need to learn) in building and setting up my station.

Offline corwyyn

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Re: Are More Stations Really Needed?
« Reply #17 on: July 28, 2014, 11:42:11 PM »
I plan on getting a station as soon as they are shipping again.  That will add a station to the Phoenix AZ area. I have put together a kit or two in my time, but I'm not an ace with the soldering gun.  So if anyone out there assembles these things I would be happy to pay you for your time.
When you decide to get your kit let me know.  Now that I finally tracked down the pesky li'l problem that was plaguing my H-field amp I feel better about volunteering to build another one.  I'm also waiting for sales to start so I can order the E-field kit. 
Kevin
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Offline Einar

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Re: Are More Stations Really Needed?
« Reply #18 on: August 03, 2014, 03:19:02 PM »
Hi there,

Being a newbie on this forum I hope this is not taken as stomping into it with my big boots on. I did not get in an order before it was empty, but I will try again. I have been looking over your shoulder for a while.

I think more than 6 (or 5) stations is needed to cover an area.
Just now a thunderstorm passed by. I could see and hear it.
But not much registered on the map. I'm where I put a red circle.
The screenshot is deliberately taken at a moment where you can see the stations around the Oslo area.
For you that don't know, Oslo is our capital city and the most densely populated area in Norway.
There is one active station not showing, where I put a red dot (79).
But that station and the one just north of it have just been in the middle of the northbound thunderstorm.

My theory is that they are not registering anything up here because they have just been "shouted in the ear!".
And the gain is turned way down or they are in interference.

So a passing storm can "disable" stations in it's path from actively participating. If then there are too few stations left to register all but the strongest lightnings, much of the lightning activity of that storm will not be registered. In this case you will notice that there is a lot of lightning activity in Sweden, east of us. And that is where we normally would have coverage from, aiding the Norwegian stations east of Oslo. I guess they are pretty deaf at the moment.

Just a theory of mine, fact or fiction?

LA8BKA Einar

Offline Dr Obbins

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Re: Are More Stations Really Needed?
« Reply #19 on: August 03, 2014, 04:08:53 PM »
Quote
My theory is that they are not registering anything up here because they have just been "shouted in the ear!". And the gain is turned way down or they are in interference.
Yes it is common for stations to be in interference mode while there is a storm on top of it. However in Europe there should be enough other stations available to register the strokes. Currently the system does not pick up all lightning. I believe that it will not count cloud to cloud strokes?

Offline Cutty Sark Sailor

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Re: Are More Stations Really Needed?
« Reply #20 on: August 03, 2014, 04:10:13 PM »
Welcome Einar...  =D> great to see somebody doing "homework" before going Live!

I'd have to agree with your thinking, you're on the right trick... I might make these comments:

The H antennas /amplifier and the computer system, as it is presently processing, does not detect "Intra-Cloud" or "Cloud to Cloud" strikes... well, once in awhile, maybe.
This type of processing is pretty efficient at Cloud to Ground. It may be that many of the strikes you heard were CC or IC.

Actually, 4 stations will nail a stroke, if they all 'surround' it they'll do it pretty accurately. But I believe, generally, in the European region, the server wants 8. In North America, it's 6.  And the system will use up to 12 for refinement. That may not happen at the split second they show on the map, however.

Stations too close to a stroke normally won't 'detect' it, simply because of the other 'cloud' noise. They may detect it, but it can be of little use for locating, etc, because of distortion. Signals can actually come out of the amplifier with clipped and distorted peaks. Now, if the station is running very low gains, it's possible. The closest stroke I've registered as located has been about 5km...

This is where the other network stations take over... The closest stations to the strokes, say within 30km typically will go into interference if there is enough activity, and won't sent data to the servers. This is simply to keep the servers from too much traffic, especially when most of the signals are likely to be unusable.

Now, all these issues are being addressed during the 'hiatus', as we've come to call it.  The new E field antennas have 3 channels of available data, and that system can, potentially, detect the other types of lightning, IC and CC, and eventually we can get polarity, strength, and possibly altitude someday. The H fields cannot discriminate the IC and CC, and actually only work for CG. Furthermore, only one channel is selected by the server, though two are available. So the developers are working on many items with the infrastructure... including algorithms, auto gain control by the server to our controllers, etc. When they have all that done, or roughed out, they'll probably begin design work on the next generation of systems... I wouldn't look for 'major' changes in the 'kits', as far as function and capability, since the Reds with E and H fields are excellent, but I suspect the kits will be simpler, with 'physical' changes that will make them simpler to implement.

And your basic assumption of  "5 or 6" stations isn't enough" is absolutely true. The more stations in the network, the better the network performs. A perfect network would have stations gridded throughout the world 30-50km apart!  One thing I always have to remember, my station by itself is just a bunch of flashing lights and buzzers and screwy waveforms on my signals page. It needs the other stations to actually be meaningful. And If I sit here with my gains turned up to get a signal from Jupiter, I'm worthless on Earth, because most of the data I send is just crap.  So you'll see many stations gradually back down their gains, as the network grows, until eventually all of us are operating in a 30-600km radius.
Other strokes aren't detected simply because they are too weak to make it through the rain, cloud activity, etc, to enough stations. And you're correct about getting 'shouted at'... signals further than about 50-80km likely aren't "ground wave" signals, they are more likely "sky wave" reflections, and they can be strong enough and distorted enough to overcome and hide nearby signals... especially with weaker nearby energy.
 


Offline Einar

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Re: Are More Stations Really Needed?
« Reply #21 on: August 03, 2014, 04:38:02 PM »
Welcome Einar...  =D> great to see somebody doing "homework" before going Live!

Thank you for the flowers. And the response to my post.

One thing that strikes me (pun intended) is that this community really must be a bunch of nice people!
Because the stations you invest in will not be of much use to yourself, but those around you. When the storm is close, your equipment is pretty much rendered deaf.
So why do I want one? Well because it shows that as a team effort this really brings astonishing and useful results.

So I'm looking forward to some hardware, be it current or next generation. I might even be useful, as I have some experience in board design and layout. Also of surface mount boards.

Your comment on many strikes being cloud-cloud is probably right. This time of year we usually have thunderstorms we call "kornmo". It is said to be called so because it occurs when the grains are ripe for harvest ("korn modent" in norwegian). And it usually have a lot more inter cloud strikes in relation to ground strikes than other seasons.

I have a small problem with the PGA's but I'll do a new topic on that instead of going totally OT here.



 

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