Author Topic: Help me understand 'MADIS' analysis for barometric data  (Read 1119 times)

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Offline Dechief

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Help me understand 'MADIS' analysis for barometric data
« on: June 28, 2023, 04:02:40 PM »
I am at 6480 feet using a Davis Pro2 weather station and Weatherlink software.  I have been a CWOP 'member' for 10+ years and I consistently get this error on the CWOP page for the barometer from my station - but only now decided to dig into this deeper for find out why:
"The standard deviation of your readings is higher than expected. This can be caused by a broken sensor that always reports the same value. It can be caused by a faulty sensor that sometimes reports values way out of range (such as 0). Check that your sensor is operating correctly. Your station is at a high elevation and you are using Weatherlink. The pressure reduction algorithm used in this software does not produce the results required for CWOP. This gives problems when the temperature changes and makes it impossible to get consistent calibration."
After doing research on how Davis wants my station calibrated (i.e. using a nearby sea-level barometer), I've done so, using the NWS data from the Centennial CO airport (KAPA).  I'll note the airport is about 1,000 ft lower and 10 miles distance from my station.  After doing this calibration, I did 'spot checks' and found my station was almost always within 2 mb of the NWS data from KAPA and then I did a more thorough analysis over a week-ish time, using Excel (I've attached screenshots of my analysis your review/reference - since I can't attach the actual Excel spreadsheet).
What I see is a very accurate station barometer, closely matching the readings from the NWS (regarding both sea-level and altimeter-based barometric readings). 
Please help me understand what I am missing and why the above error continually pops up on CWOP...
Thanks!
BTW - I've also attached a screenshot of what I see for my station's barometer analysis on CWOP.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2023, 06:58:49 PM by Dechief »

Offline gszlag

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Re: Help me understand 'MADIS' analysis for barometric data
« Reply #1 on: July 05, 2023, 05:03:52 PM »
Welcome to the forum!

I don’t own any Davis equipment and don’t upload to CWOP but here goes anyway. Maybe an existing VP2 owner can help clarify if I’ve got any of the Davis details wrong.

Couple things to check/double check:

- The elevation you have entered in your VP2 console is the elevation above sea level of your barometric sensor ( located in your console).

- CWOP requires you to upload Altimeter to them.  Uploading SLP instead of Altimeter could be the reason why MADIS is generating errors and complaining about temperature changes. For each elevation, temperature (and pressure) is fixed in Altimeter and does not change. SLP on the other hand, does change with temperature.

How are you generating Altimeter? Do you have the Davis Vue console which can calculate SLP or Altimeter?  Alternatively, Altimeter can also be calculated in software using WeeWX weather software. WeeWX can also upload Altimeter to CWOP.
--
Altimeter uses a standard atmosphere model (International Standard Atmosphere or ISA for short) where temperature and pressure are fixed values at your specific elevation. See below:

Elevation: 6480.00 feet

ISA assumes completely dry air (no humidity)

ISA temperature @ 6480 ft: 2.16182°C
ISA temperature @ 0 ft (sea level) = 15°C

ISA pressure @ 6480 ft: 797.413 hPa
ISA pressure @ 0 ft (sea level) = 1013.25

Elevation offset: 1013.25 hPa – 797.413 = 215.837 hPa = 215.8 hPa (rounded)

This means that @ 6480 ft elevation, Altimeter should be about 215.8 higher than your current station pressure. A quick verification check with the NOAA/NWS Altimeter (setting) calculator indicates Altimeter = 1012.98 if we use the ISA pressure of 797.4 as your station pressure. The altimeter calculator subtracts  0.3 hPa/mb to account for the traditional 10 ft landing gear height for aircraft so that is why the answer is not exactly 1013.25.

If you do not have a Vue console, you can force a VP2 console to calculate Altimeter by setting elevation = zero. Keep in mind that this is a type of pseudo-Altimeter calculation using a fixed offset instead of the actual altimeter algorithm. Therefore, the fixed offset method will be most accurate when Altimeter is close to  1013.25. There is some drawbacks to consider with the fixed offset pseudo-altimeter method. At lower lows and higher highs, accuracy will start to drift.

You are at a very high altitude which poses a challenge to pressure reduction formulas – especially SLP. Here’s an excerpt from an American Meteorological Society article that might apply to your situation:

“Normally, station pressure is reduced to MSL only for stations with relatively low elevations above sea level (ASL). At higher stations, station pressure is usually converted to the height of the closest standard pressure surface.
In the United States, however, station pressure is reduced to MSL for stations as high as 2000 m ASL. In order to reduce the amplitude of the annual MSL pressure variation at stations situated above 305 m ASL (hereinafter referred to as “plateau stations”), a so-called plateau correction is applied at these stations. The correction increases reduced MSL pressure when the actual temperature at the station is greater than the yearly mean temperature at the same station, and vice versa. The correction can therefore change both magnitude and direction of MSL pressure gradients.”

Although your Davis console has a very good SLP algorithm, it is only an approximation of actual AWOS/ASOS SLP calculations so minor differences can be magnified at extreme elevations. Plus, when you add variable plateau effect corrections into the mix you may have difficulty matching SLP at your airport/METAR station at very high elevation.
Although you are pretty much at the maximum 2000 m upper limit for MSL calculations - If you are satisfied with your accuracy, that's great!

Sorry, I can’t help with the MADIS complaint about your sensor’s standard deviation. the screenshot shows the analysis has a somewhat jagged response but your sensor chart looks smooth enough. If your sensor is randomly jumping up a down over 1 mb or "stuck" (probability is that the sensor is failing/failed).

A common complaint by CWOP users is that neighbouring stations often do not set up their barometers correctly which impacts the MADIS quality check (in a bad way).

Definitions:

ASL – Above Sea Level
MSL – Mean Sea Level
SLP – Mean Sea Level Pressure
Ambient Weather WS-2000
Ecowitt WS3900 console
Ecowitt GW1000/GW1100
Ecowitt WS68: Anemometer, UV/solar
Ecowitt WH40: Rain gauge
Ecowitt WH57 Lightning sensor
Ecowitt WH32E: Outside T & H sensor
Stratus Rain Gauge (manual)
Raspberry Pi 3B+ (WeeWX/CumulusMX)
Raspberry Pi Zero 2W (WeeWX/MQTT/Belchertown)
---
Barometer wiki: http://meshka.eu/Ecowitt/dokuwiki/doku.php?id=barometer#barometer
---
http://weather.glenns.ca (pwsdashboard - live)
http://weewx.glenns.ca
http://glenns.ca/cumulusmx2/index.htm
---
Uploading to: AWN, ecowitt.net, Weather Underground, PWSweather.com, AWEKAS, Windy.com, WOW

Offline Dechief

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Re: Help me understand 'MADIS' analysis for barometric data
« Reply #2 on: July 06, 2023, 10:01:45 AM »
gszlag - Your informative and excellently written reply is very much appreciated...

Please let me try to answer some of your questions - I'm not sure if this will change your answer, but nonetheless, here is the info:
I do not have a Vue console, but I am using a Davis Envoy console.  The barometric data submitted to CWOP is altimeter based, calculated using Davis' algorithm.  FWIW, the Envoy is essentially a VP2 console without a display - you use Davis' WeatherLink software to access and transmit the data CWOP.   I also have two separate VP2 consoles, which are configured and set identically and report the same barometer readings.  Here is a screenshot of both the setup screen for entering elevation and calibrated SLP barometric data along with the associated 'help' page for these settings (Sea-level Barometer is blank as this is for demo only - I'm not actually (re)setting it at this time...):
 [ You are not allowed to view attachments ]

As you may note, the instructions are pretty specific on the how and why for setup of the SLP.

From the analysis I have done, my SLP readings are comparatively smooth when matched to the NWS data from KAPA - as are the altimeter readings, altitude difference notwithstanding between the two reference points.  The MADIS analysis seems to jump all over the place and may well be related to your comment on others not properly setting their barometers - in truth, I am making the assumption *mine* is set properly.

Offline gszlag

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    • Michael's Bay - Manitoulin Island weather
Re: Help me understand 'MADIS' analysis for barometric data
« Reply #3 on: July 06, 2023, 01:06:20 PM »
Thank you.
Ahh..the Envoy. Other than I knew it existed, I was unaware that it could generate a "real" Altimeter..much better than just pseudo-altimeter from the VP2.

And yes, your conclusion is bang on. Sometimes it is best to ignore the madness of crowds - especially with respect to barometers!

Thanks too, for the screen shots.Since I am a Ambient and Ecowitt station owner I am envious of that elevation input. We don't have one.
Ambient Weather WS-2000
Ecowitt WS3900 console
Ecowitt GW1000/GW1100
Ecowitt WS68: Anemometer, UV/solar
Ecowitt WH40: Rain gauge
Ecowitt WH57 Lightning sensor
Ecowitt WH32E: Outside T & H sensor
Stratus Rain Gauge (manual)
Raspberry Pi 3B+ (WeeWX/CumulusMX)
Raspberry Pi Zero 2W (WeeWX/MQTT/Belchertown)
---
Barometer wiki: http://meshka.eu/Ecowitt/dokuwiki/doku.php?id=barometer#barometer
---
http://weather.glenns.ca (pwsdashboard - live)
http://weewx.glenns.ca
http://glenns.ca/cumulusmx2/index.htm
---
Uploading to: AWN, ecowitt.net, Weather Underground, PWSweather.com, AWEKAS, Windy.com, WOW