Topic: Hope everyone is ok...Wash your hands.

[sky_watcher]

....? Why not just put some people out on a few international flights and let them start an infection elsewhere? ...

Now that wouldn't look fishy at all.

No, it wouldn't. There are lots of Chinese tourists going all around the world (over 2.3 million visited the USA during 2015) and they tend to travel in groups.

[davidmc36]

Take it out but not leave any behind.........suuuuuuuuuuuure.

[johnd]

Sorry John, I'm having a hard time taking you seriously. 

Pot, kettle, black comes to mind. Look I'm interested only in the science here, not in stooping to personal insults - happy to leave that to you. And I'd much rather  let the science speak for itself than blindly follow the instructions of some Fox fake news polemic.

If you are interested in the science then tale a look at:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XSQWwWq3ofA

This is a good solid lecture by an experienced and well-known virologist who really knows his stuff and that was actually only uploaded yesterday (21st April). Parts of it may be a little heavy-duty but much of it isn't difficult for the lay person to follow. The whole video is relevant to anyone interested in newly emerging viral threats, but probably not many here will want to stay the whole course so:

The section on SARS-CoV-2 starts around the 1hr 10min mark, but if you just want to cut to the chase about the origin of this specific virus then jump to around 1hr 15:40 point and listen for just 2-3 minutes.

[SnowHiker]

Pot, kettle, black comes to mind. Look I'm interested only in the science here, not in stooping to personal insults - happy to leave that to you. And I'd much rather  let the science speak for itself than blindly follow the instructions of some Fox fake news polemic.

Sorry John, no insult intended.  But along with science I'm also interested in facts.

The facts are there were no outbreaks of Ebola, smallpox, or anything else from Ft. Detrick as you said there may have been.

The fact is the Chinese did not police themselves and shut down the Wuhan lab as you said was probable.

The facts are that nations have been influencing each other via various means; diplomatic, clandestine, warfare, etc. every since nations have existed.  And intelligence agencies have discovered facts that you seem to believe can't be found.

Part of point concerning the difference between the Chinese operated lab in Wuhan, and the lab at Ft Detrick was to demonstrate how differently open societies and closed societies operate, that seems to have been lost on you in your efforts to create some kind of moral equivalence.

You can disregard certain news outlets all you want, no matter how much they may prove to be correct, but that's part of the problem; picking and choosing what you want to believe.

Maybe your insults were more discreet, things to the effect of "I marvel at people's worldview" and saying it's due to "anti-China bias", but your condescension is there.

The fallacies of your analogies have been pointed out, and all you do is double down.

I could go much farther into the difference between open and closed (dare I say "godless"?) societies that shoot anyone who states facts, but it would most likely would be to no effect.  So I'll just point out that the differences are burgers to viruses.

[Bunty]

Oklahoma governor Kevin Stitt wants to begin reopening the state quickly-- but Stillwater isn't following suit.

Stillwater city manager Norman McNickle released a statement Wednesday explaining the city's plan to continue its shelter-in-place policy until at least April 30.

"Regardless of what Governor Kevin Stitt said at his April 22 press conference, Stillwater will follow its existing Emergency Proclamation, which includes the shelter-in-place order that ends April 30," McNickle said in a statement. "There are ongoing discussions with local officials about reopening businesses and services. Stillwater City Council will discuss the issue at its next meeting April 27. City officials did not receive advanced notification of the Governor’s intentions."

Stillwater mayor Will Joyce had a similar message in a series of tweets on Wednesday.

"Governor Stitt released an outline today of his plan for rolling back the state's social distancing guidelines," Joyce said in a tweet. "I appreciate that he intends to rely on data and take a phased approach based on that data. The charts and figures he used today are not readily available on the state website, and we do not have access to that data for our local area. We continue to work with our local health officials to see whether current local conditions meet the CDC, national and state guidance.

"That being the case, the emergency declarations in place in Stillwater will remain effective through at least April 30. The businesses identified by the Governor as opening this week will remain closed in Stillwater for the time being. We have meetings scheduled this week to talk with local businesses, officials, and other groups to determine the appropriate steps for our community. The City Council will also meet Monday, April 27 to discuss these issues. COVID-19 continues to be a serious public health crisis in our city and our state. It is imperative that we all take all possible precautions to keep it from spreading. Please stay home and keep our community safe."

This statement comes hours after Stitt put a plan in place to have some Oklahoma businesses reopen as soon as April 24.

According to ok.gov, Stillwater currently has 22 COVID-19 cases, 0 deaths and 16 recoveries.
FROM:  https://www.ocolly.com/news/stillwater-to-continue-shelter-in-place-order-despite-stitts-plan/article_13ae59fe-84de-11ea-835d-bf73c6deca78.html

It looks like Oklahoma will enter phase 1 of reopening its economy in 2 different stages beginning Friday:

https://www.fox23.com/news/local/stitt-announces-plan-reopen-oklahoma/B7XFT2YNLZFLNDG3V7AHEM25B4/
April 24, 2020, the following businesses can reopen:

    Personal care businesses, such as hair salons, barbershops, spas, nail salons, and pet groomers can reopen for appointments only, must adhere to sanitation protocols, and follow guidelines posted on the Oklahoma Department of Commerce website regarding social distancing between customers and visitors at personal care businesses.
    State parks and outdoor recreation should be reopened
    Grocery stores should continue to maintain hours for vulnerable populations

May 1, 2020, the following businesses can reopen:

    Dining, entertainment, movie theatres and sporting venues can operate using CDC recommended social distancing and sanitation protocols.
    Gyms can reopen if they adhere to CDC-recommended social distancing and sanitation protocols.
    Places of worship can reopen for in-person meetings or worship if they leave every other row or pew open and adhere to CDC-recommended social distancing and sanitation protocols, plus the recommended guidelines from the Oklahoma Department of Commerce.
    Bars should remain closed.
    Tattoo Parlors can reopen for appointments only and must adhere to sanitation protocols and social distancing protocols for distancing between customers and visitors.'

[CW2274]

Oklahoma governor Kevin Stitt wants to begin reopening the state quickly-- but Stillwater isn't following suit.

And the way it should be. Delegation is essential, whether the calls made turn out for better or worse. Unless something overtly stupid is about to incur, leave it to the lowest level. They're paid to govern.

[the beteljuice]

It must be remembered that the measures put in place are to reduce the critically ill / mortality rate to numbers that (put your government here) can be coped with.

Unless it mutates to a non-pathogenic form this virus will take its long term tally.
Restaurants re-opening with a two metre distancing policy, serving a handful of customers who have a 'app' that says they are probably clear ?

Anyone who is still working in the hospitality trade had better look elsewhere for a couple years.

[Bunty]

Oklahoma governor Kevin Stitt wants to begin reopening the state quickly-- but Stillwater isn't following suit.

And the way it should be. Delegation is essential, whether the calls made turn out for better or worse. Unless something overtly stupid is about to incur, leave it to the lowest level. They're paid to govern.

Oklahoma Gov. Stitt was asked if he would force cities to follow his plans. He said “he would cross that bridge when he got there.”  This could be interesting.  But the governor never objected to the cities shutting things down locally before he did statewide.

The Oklahoma City mayor is also not going along with Gov. Stitt's plan for now.  More on the governor's multi phase plan:

Gov. Stitt says in Phase One, Oklahomans should continue to do the following: avoid social gatherings that don't allow for social distancing and minimize non-essential travel. He says employers should create phases for people to return to work, while keeping common areas closed and honoring requests and accommodations for high risk employees.

Gov. Stitt continued by adding that personal care businesses can reopen Friday for appointment only, and must have strict sanitation. This would include such businesses as pet groomers, hair salons, spas, etc.

Grocery stores should continue to have special hours for the most vulnerable in the community.

Beginning May 1, Gov. Stitt says the following businesses can reopen, if they comply to all of the precautions:
-Restaurants
-Movie Theaters
-Gyms
-Churches
-Sporting Venues

During Phase One, bars will remain closed, says Gov. Stitt.

Gov. Stitt says it is important to note that if hospital data remain manageable for two weeks then we will go onto Phase Two.

During Phase two, the most vulnerable in the community will still partake in implementing precautions. Sporting events and bars will be able to reopen, and funerals and weddings can resume with more than 10 people.

If hospital data continues to be manageable for another two weeks after the beginning of Phase Two, then Phase 3 will be implemented.

[stevebrtx]

The county I live in has 3 cases of the virus which means in 966 square miles populated by 22,000 people we have a grand total of .014% infection rate and zero deaths. Yet this morning I went to get some sheetrock mud and got hollered at for going in the wrong door, the same door I've been going in for 5 years? I feel like the dog who just peed on the living room carpet, I'm going to start carrying a rolled up newpaper to hand to people to spank me for doing the same things I've done forever.

[chief-david]

There were at least 30 people at the park yesterday playing basketball and standing around.
Then one, cuts through the neighbors yard and comes within 2 feet of those of us talking very far away from each other.

I coughed as he went by.

Looks like Minnesota distance learning the rest of the year.

[waiukuweather]

The county I live in has 3 cases of the virus which means in 966 square miles populated by 22,000 people we have a grand total of .014% infection rate and zero deaths.

remember, so many places thought it wont happen to us
next minute
this is an invisible contagious deadly virus that needs to be taken seriously

[stevebrtx]

So is driving my car but I do it almost every day. I had the H1N1 in MX, it didn't get me and it's not likely this one will either. Now, my high blood pressure from being treated like a petulant child may kill me. The count I saw today was for every 1 death in the US, 556 jobs have been lost, yes, it's a deadly, but not in mortality, it's deadly in lives destroyed, small businesses lost. And, you notice that none of the people making these rules has lost their job or paycheck.

[SnowHiker]

Maybe I'm overly optimistic, but I think places like Oklahoma are going to do better than expected as they reopen.  It's seems many of the predictions have been overly dire, which may be understandable considering how many unknowns there are and how unsettled the science is.  I am a little sympathetic to the politicians (you won't hear me say that very often) as they have to live with the consequences and take the blame, no matter what choice they make.  (But then, they'll just pass on the blame, so maybe I'm not that sympathetic.) 

I am afraid that our kids and grandkids will be living with the effects of our decision to protect our own lives to the extent we have.  But then, there is always an opportunity to learn some things from this experience that may make their lives better.

[stevebrtx]

I believe this covers it fairly well:
https://thehill.com/opinion/healthcare/494034-the-data-are-in-stop-the-panic-and-end-the-total-isolation

[CW2274]

I am a little sympathetic to the politicians (you won't hear me say that very often) as they have to live with the consequences and take the blame, no matter what choice they make. 

Understatement of the century. 

[Bunty]

I believe this covers it fairly well:
https://thehill.com/opinion/healthcare/494034-the-data-are-in-stop-the-panic-and-end-the-total-isolation

It appears the Oklahoma State Medical Association does not agree.  Maybe it's concerned on April 18th 45% of ICU beds were available.  Now at 35%:

Oklahoma State Medical Association
Yesterday at 5:47 PM ·

Oklahoma State Medical Association President George Monks, M.D. said, “We are concerned Gov. Stitt’s plan to reopen the state is hasty at best. Even without widespread testing, Oklahoma has seen an ongoing growth in the number of cases, hospitalizations and deaths in the past week alone. According to the Trump administration, states should not begin this process until they’ve seen a two-week downward trajectory in COVID-19 cases, and we are far from this point.

"Oklahoma’s physicians, nurses and other healthcare workers continue to care for those who are ill from this savage disease. To increase the danger of widespread infection by opening prematurely not only discounts their efforts, but also the sacrifices made by their loved ones.

The measures the state previously put in place have made a difference in the fight against coronavirus, and we applaud Oklahoma City Mayor David Holt, Tulsa Mayor GT Bynum and Norman Mayor Breea Clark for their continued commitment to protecting public safety. We urge Gov. Stitt to follow suit."

[stevebrtx]

Like I said, you notice all the people making the rules are still getting a regular paycheck. Cut that off and well see if their opinions (and that's all they are, wild guess's) change.

[ValentineWeather]

This was posted on local school teacher FB page:

There are those wanting to reopen yet they’re being classified as selfish. There are those that rely on all kinds of people to supply them while they cower in fear at home. Isn’t that being selfish too?

You expect your garbage to be picked up, you expect the grocery store to be open so you can get milk, you expect truck drivers to supply the stores, you expect farmers, meatpackers, fruit and vegetable pickers all to keep food in that grocery store.

You expect Amazon to still ship all the things you’re ordering while you sit at home shopping. You expect the delivery driver to leave it on your doorstep. You expect your phone to work, your power to stay on, and your mail to show up rain, sleet, or shine.  And most important, you expect the doctors and nurses to be there if you need them although many of them across the country have been furloughed because their units and services have been shut down while the entire system focuses only on COVID19.

The whole premise of shelter in place is based on the arrogant idea that others must risk their health so you can protect yours. There is nothing virtuous about ignoring the largely invisible army required to allow people to shelter in place.

I know there are some of you that are screaming mad about what I just said but stop and really think about what is allowing you to stay safe in your home.
I truly believe that with some common sense on my part, I could easily go back to life as it was. I want to go to restaurants, I want to shop at the little store just up the road.

And yes, I could catch COVID-19. I could also catch the flu or a cold.  I could get run over by a bus.  I could get struck by lightning. We take risks everyday. If you choose to stay home, that is absolutely your choice. And please don’t start screaming at me about how I’ll just spread it. Why are you worried? You won’t get it because you’re staying in your home. Are you going to shelter in place every time a new strand of the flu happens?

Our economy can’t withstand much more of this. If our economy collapses, so will the rest of the world’s. If that happens, you will see the rise of tyrants.
I absolutely don’t want people to die...from COVID or anything else. I want people to live.

But sheltering in place is not living.

[stevebrtx]

Well said, there needs to be a return to sanity.

[ValentineWeather]

Well said, there needs to be a return to sanity.

Yes, agree we need to start using some common sense especially in light of antibody reports both east and west coast this virus was likely circulating 2 months earlier than expected and the world didn't come to an end.

[ValentineWeather]

[youtube]https://youtu.be/wVs5AyjzwRM[/youtube]

[waiukuweather]

you guys are completely missing the point
everyone should pretend like they actually have it
so to break the chain of transmission and to stop it spreading, you stay home to keep others safe
otherwise its just going to keep on circulating which means social distancing measures will be in place for longer

[DRoberts]

 Thanks. I needed a laugh

[waiukuweather]

its no laughing matter

[SnowHiker]

Yes, agree we need to start using some common sense especially in light of antibody reports both east and west coast this virus was likely circulating 2 months earlier than expected and the world didn't come to an end.

Even here I know at least two people who I regularly interact with who think they've had it, one as early as late December.  I remember they described it as like nothing they've ever had before, and that was before we even heard of Wuhan as I recall.  If they had it there's a very good chance I and many others I know were infected.  Of course that's all circumstantial until there's more testing.  I wouldn't bet one way or the other.

Well said, there needs to be a return to sanity.

I'd settle for a return to normal.