Author Topic: Was looking at Davis, but now not too sure.. Ideas welcome!  (Read 2961 times)

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Offline Cohote Mike

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Was looking at Davis, but now not too sure.. Ideas welcome!
« on: September 22, 2024, 03:56:38 PM »
Hey all!
So for the last 10 months, I've been somewhat researching and comparing different manufacturers and models out there - sometimes my searches for info even took me to the forums here. (I THOUGHT I was a user here, 6-8 years ago, when I was in my old house and wanted to get something set up - sadly, heck if I can remember what my account was. Hah.)

I had settled on a Vantage Pro 2 from Davis, however for several reasons I'm not sure they're the best choice for me now. (Some of the reasons being reported issues here about quality and support, along with some missing features that I would like to see..)

I love data, and the more data points I have the better. :)

So I'm welcome to see what folks can recommend that can support as much of the following as it can..
  • All the standard readings.. Wind Dir&Speed, Rain, Temp, Humidity.
  • UV/Solar Radiation
  • Lightning
  • PM readings (in and out?)
  • Leaf Wetness - add in future?
  • Soil Moisture - add in future?
  • An additional Wind Dir&Speed up to 550ft/165m from the main station and 350ft/115m from the house - to be added in future.
One of the reasons I picked the Davis - despite not having Lightning), is that the best spot for the weather station would be about 350ft/100m from the house - and I cannot easily run cable out there. The Davis can supposedly reach wirelessly up to 1000ft/300m, which would work well in my selected location.
I admit I am also not a fan of Davis's console. I'd love to be able to run a small RPi system (or something on a tablet) that gave me some different (better) screens and options. So - I don't need a limited display console. :)
Sorry for the long post, once I started, I kept remembering things. :D
Thanks guys!

Offline Vasco

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Re: Was looking at Davis, but now not too sure.. Ideas welcome!
« Reply #1 on: September 22, 2024, 04:03:27 PM »
Look at Ecowitt. . .
Ecowitt GW1102 (with GW2000) + Weather Display in Windows 10

Offline R.Sidetrack

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Re: Was looking at Davis, but now not too sure.. Ideas welcome!
« Reply #2 on: September 22, 2024, 04:11:27 PM »
. . . and after you have acquired Ecowitt, you can use ecowitt.net to display their standard screens on your  tablet.  Or if you want more options perhaps install CumulusMX on that Raspberry Pi and serve up customized screens to that tablet.

You might want to consider avoiding an "all-in-one" unit and get individual sensors that can be mounted in separate locations. For instance, there is no value in having a rain sensor or temperature sensor mounted up high. Use an Ecowitt GW1200 or GW2000 gateway to avoid paying for a display console that you don't want anyway.
Graham

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Offline CW2274

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Re: Was looking at Davis, but now not too sure.. Ideas welcome!
« Reply #3 on: September 22, 2024, 05:21:10 PM »
One of the reasons I picked the Davis - despite not having Lightning), is that the best spot for the weather station would be about 350ft/100m from the house - and I cannot easily run cable out there. The Davis can supposedly reach wirelessly up to 1000ft/300m, which would work well in my selected location.
This is a no-brainer. For that distance, only a Davis will do. The others push 330' at a max in an open field. A PWS is nothing but an expensive (and frustrating) paperweight if you can't even receive the data.

Offline vinceskahan

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Re: Was looking at Davis, but now not too sure.. Ideas welcome!
« Reply #4 on: September 22, 2024, 05:39:13 PM »
How much is your budget ?   You're probably looking near $1,000 for all your requirements.   And are you ok with running a raspi to fill in the blanks ?

Also it depends if you're ok with being the system integrator and now much IT you can/want-to do.

If you're ok with running a raspi to integrate data from varying vendors, I'd go with:
  • a Davis ISS sensor suite of your choice for the remote location far away
  • a RTL-SDR dongle and antenna to listen to the Davis readings
  • an Ecowitt gateway and Ecowitt soil temp/moisture sensors
  • a PurpleAir for AQI or you could go Davis Airlink if so inclined
  • a raspberry pi4 running weewx using the rtl-davis driver to grab all the data from the various sources and generate a webpage
  • a Kindle Fire running free FullyKioskBrowser
  • a weewx custom skin dashboard, or something using HomeAssistant if you run that already


I do it a little differently but similarly and it's very stable:
  • HomeAssistant in Docker on an ubuntu i3 x86_64
  • VP2 and the absurdly expensive Davis datalogger connected to a pi4 running weewx
  • ecowitt gw1200 and inside/outside T+H and soil moisture/temp sensors to a second weewx instance on that pi4
  • PurpleAir 'and' Davis Airlink for out+in air quality
  • misc other things sending to MQTT that weewx and HomeAssistant can subscribe to

I could do the above all in Docker on one i3 NUC if I was so inclined, but I like having weewx on one pi4 since I do other things on there anyway (pihole, grabbing weathercam snaps and assembling timelapse movies, etc.)

The uv and lightning sensors can get a bit pricey and I'm not sure any are actually accurate.  Davis costs are ridiculously high.  I punted there.

WeeWX sites on a pi4:
  Davis VP2+DFARS
  EcoWitt GW1200, WH32 outdoor T+H, multiple WH31 indoor T+H, WH51 soilMoisture, WH34 soilTemp
  Davis AirLink (inside)
  PurpleAir (outside)
Home site:        https://www.skahan.net/  - sorry, but I block incoming other than US/CA/AU due to bots from elsewhere
Wunderground: KWAFEDER15
PWS:                KWFEDER15
CWOP:              CW6881

Offline Cohote Mike

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Re: Was looking at Davis, but now not too sure.. Ideas welcome!
« Reply #5 on: September 22, 2024, 07:13:30 PM »
Thanks for the info, guys - I should mention that the closest one - the ~100m/300ft one from the house would have a clear shot to the house, no trees, just grassland. If the Ecowitt connects via Wifi (and not a proprietary RF signal), I can mount an outdoor wifi AP on that corner of the house to help the signal, too.
As far as budget - I had put aside $3k max for everything - though obviously, I'm not going to spend money just to spend money.  :lol:
This is a no-brainer. For that distance, only a Davis will do. The others push 330' at a max in an open field. A PWS is nothing but an expensive (and frustrating) paperweight if you can't even receive the data.
That's what I was worried about - I have a powerful outdoor solar battery - if Davis just wouldn't work, I'll potentially look into a wifi extender or outdoor AP and review distances and such.
And are you ok with running a raspi to fill in the blanks ?
Also it depends if you're ok with being the system integrator and now much IT you can/want-to do.
I'm okay with a LOT of IT. (The house is being built - move-in date is in a couple months. I wired the entire thing for ethernet and fiber. I also have about 5 RPi's dissing around here, waiting for a use!)  Thanks for that list - I will need to research a couple of those things and become familiar with them!
Ecowitt seems to be popular, I will spend this week and look into their offerings. :)

Offline vinceskahan

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Re: Was looking at Davis, but now not too sure.. Ideas welcome!
« Reply #6 on: September 22, 2024, 07:24:27 PM »
If you have that kind of money to devote to it, just go all Davis for what Davis supports and get it over with and let them be the integrators.  PurpleAir is also quite good and has a nice API to querying it and there is a weewx extension that is good.

Ecowitt is ok for its T+H sensors but have a lot of seemingly toys for the other stuff.  I question the soil moisture sensor we have.  The soil sensor seems to be ok.  The WS85 ultrasonic/haptic wind+rain sensor is just junk.  I really just need to sell it to somebody who wants it.

I built my stuff around weewx and Home Assistant with a lot of MQTT for both, if it matters.  Works fine.
WeeWX sites on a pi4:
  Davis VP2+DFARS
  EcoWitt GW1200, WH32 outdoor T+H, multiple WH31 indoor T+H, WH51 soilMoisture, WH34 soilTemp
  Davis AirLink (inside)
  PurpleAir (outside)
Home site:        https://www.skahan.net/  - sorry, but I block incoming other than US/CA/AU due to bots from elsewhere
Wunderground: KWAFEDER15
PWS:                KWFEDER15
CWOP:              CW6881

Offline R.Sidetrack

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Re: Was looking at Davis, but now not too sure.. Ideas welcome!
« Reply #7 on: September 22, 2024, 08:07:51 PM »
Quote
The house is being built - move-in date is in a couple months.
Before construction finishes up, consider having an underground (direct burial UF) 120VAC cable buried out to the general area that you are referring to. And while the trench is open, add direct burial Cat6 etc. You can bring those cables up to a 4x4 post with weatherproof boxes. I suggest not going more than 100 meters from your house network.

 Having power and ethernet in the general area of your weather sensors allows options that you wouldn't otherwise have.  You never know what you might want to do out there a few years down the road. :) Even just some landscape lighting.
Graham

--- Variety of Ecowitt devices ---

Offline BoDuke

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Re: Was looking at Davis, but now not too sure.. Ideas welcome!
« Reply #8 on: September 24, 2024, 09:15:55 AM »
Welcome back to the forum!

No weather stations, that I know of at least, use a WiFi signal at the station itself.  For power (solar, supercapacitor, and battery combos) and distance reasons, they use an ISM radio frequency (commonly 915MHz in USA).  The gateway/receiver/console/interface connects in the house and usually has an ethernet and/or WiFi connection.

I can't say from personal experience, but I don't believe you would have good luck with 915MHz Ecowitt equipment at that distance.

As for issues of quality, support, and missing features, I am not aware of a consumer/prosumer grade weather station that doesn't suffer from those to certain extents.  Yes, it's 2024 and I don't believe any company has an excellent track record on all three at a reasonable price.  Like sighting a weather station, you'll generally have to decide what compromises you can live with.  Some of us are hobbyists and some are meteorologists and everywhere in between so our goals and priorities are personal decisions.  Hopefully you can find and receive lots of information here so you can make the best choice.

Vince makes very good arguments and points out that you don't have to stick with just one brand.  It can make a lot of sense to use different brands for different sensors.  For example, if you want to also monitor refrigerators, freezers, and room temperatures, I think Ecowitt plus one of their gateways would be the way to go.

I'm also an admin here so if you did want to try and find your old account, even for curiosity's sake, send me a PM and I can help.

Offline Cohote Mike

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Re: Was looking at Davis, but now not too sure.. Ideas welcome!
« Reply #9 on: September 24, 2024, 01:45:42 PM »
First, apologies in my delay in getting back here!
I dug out my RPi, got Linux on it, and have a RTL-SDR dongle arriving today. I haven't ordered any station or equipment yet; right now looking into seeing how the receiver and Weewx works, because then I can get it talking to the Davis (or other equip) without getting stuck with one of their consoles.

Before construction finishes up, consider having an underground (direct burial UF) 120VAC cable buried out to the general area that you are referring to. And while the trench is open, add direct burial Cat6 etc. You can bring those cables up to a 4x4 post with weatherproof boxes. I suggest not going more than 100 meters from your house network.Having power and ethernet in the general area of your weather sensors allows options that you wouldn't otherwise have.  You never know what you might want to do out there a few years down the road. :) Even just some landscape lighting.
I will see about getting this done - it may be too late as I'm not sure they will be bringing out the trencher anymore. (And because of inspections, not sure the county would allow to run anything that's not being used yet; which means I would do it later.) Luckily, the design of the house makes it real easy for me to do this in the future, should I wish! (But I agree, having power/network out to a location like this wouldn't be a bad idea.)

If you have that kind of money to devote to it, just go all Davis for what Davis supports and get it over with and let them be the integrators.  PurpleAir is also quite good and has a nice API to querying it and there is a weewx extension that is good.
Having looked at their items - as I understand it I would need to get one of their 'gateways' if I don't get one of their consoles, and the gateways require a 'hardware activation fee' and 'annual subscription'. I would really, really prefer to avoid that. (I'm not cheap, but I don't like relying on someone else's servers.. Call me paranoid.  :lol: )

As for issues of quality, support, and missing features, I am not aware of a consumer/prosumer grade weather station that doesn't suffer from those to certain extents.  Yes, it's 2024 and I don't believe any company has an excellent track record on all three at a reasonable price.  Like sighting a weather station, you'll generally have to decide what compromises you can live with.  Some of us are hobbyists and some are meteorologists and everywhere in between so our goals and priorities are personal decisions.  Hopefully you can find and receive lots of information here so you can make the best choice.
I guess my biggest concern with Davis was the recent posts I've seen on here and elsewhere about the purchase 5,6 years ago, and some folks reporting sudden quality degradation. (Interestingly, I had contacted them with a pre-sales question back in spring of this year, and yeah, it took them 3 months to reply, which I was a little surprised at.) Also having looked at their manuals, they 'recommend' some maintenance to be done every 6 months on some items. I won't lie, the frequency of that surprised me. While I know nothing is 'set and forget' these days, I was hoping that when I had everything mounted out in the field I would maybe need to get out there once a year or more, not sooner. For Ecowitt, I didn't see them list ANY maintenance in their manuals that I reviewed, which is also a worry. Heh.
I built my stuff around weewx and Home Assistant with a lot of MQTT for both, if it matters.  Works fine.
Vince makes very good arguments and points out that you don't have to stick with just one brand.  It can make a lot of sense to use different brands for different sensors.  For example, if you want to also monitor refrigerators, freezers, and room temperatures, I think Ecowitt plus one of their gateways would be the way to go.
After getting some feedback from ya'll, I think I'm going to go the Weeex/RTL-SDR/Davis route for both stations, and then look into other sensors for the other items.
This will also allow me to add the other sensors later, once I get the main systems up and running. (Other sensors include the leaf wetness sensor, lightning, etc. that aren't as important for getting current weather stats.) It'll also allow me to start different threads on the other sensors and getting them connected up when I get to that point.
Related - while searching up some information, I came across 'Young' (youngusa.com) - they don't have a 'hardware' forum here; are they relatively new? Their equipment looks more commercial.


I'm also an admin here so if you did want to try and find your old account, even for curiosity's sake, send me a PM and I can help.
Oh, nono. Let all that potential embarrassment stay hidden away. :D I'm not sure my previous posts would put me in a good light - I was a LOT less knowledgeable back then! Thanks tho!

Offline mcrossley

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Re: Was looking at Davis, but now not too sure.. Ideas welcome!
« Reply #10 on: September 24, 2024, 02:30:17 PM »
and the gateways require a 'hardware activation fee' and 'annual subscription'. I would really, really prefer to avoid that. (I'm not cheap, but I don't like relying on someone else's servers.. Call me paranoid.  :lol: )
No "hardware activation fee", not sure where you got that from.

The subscription is only required if you want to read historic data from the Davis cloud servers. You can run without it.

The WeatherLink Live (which I assume is the "gateway" you are referring to?) does not hold historic data though. It does buffer live data for up to a few months in the event it cannot contact the Davis cloud.
Mark

Offline PaulMy

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Re: Was looking at Davis, but now not too sure.. Ideas welcome!
« Reply #11 on: September 24, 2024, 02:51:16 PM »
With the Davis VP2 ISS, and a Weatherlink Live device (no console needed but you can get one), your data gets sent to Davis Cloud Weatherlink.com free account from where you can view your current/today data.  You can also view the usual Weatherlink.com data on the mobile Weatherlink App.  If you wanted to view and access your archive data at Weatherlink.com then you would need a WL.com paid suscription.

CumulusMX can access the Weatherlink Live data (which I think is similar to others like Weeex) and do its many usual thinks https://www.komokaweather.com/cumulusmxwll/index.htm 

Enjoy,
Paul

Offline Cohote Mike

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Re: Was looking at Davis, but now not too sure.. Ideas welcome!
« Reply #12 on: September 24, 2024, 02:59:54 PM »
No "hardware activation fee", not sure where you got that from.
The subscription is only required if you want to read historic data from the Davis cloud servers. You can run without it.
The WeatherLink Live (which I assume is the "gateway" you are referring to?) does not hold historic data though. It does buffer live data for up to a few months in the event it cannot contact the Davis cloud.
If I wasn't going to get a WeatherLink Console, and did NOT use the SDR/RPi to upload weather data (and only use the RPi for custom display), I'm assuming I'd need a 'gateway' to connect to the VP2 and upload the sensor data.. As least, that's what I've tried to figure out.
On their website, they have 3 gateways listed, one is the WeatherLink Line, the other two, one is LTE and one is WiFi, and both the latter ones show:

The WLL doesn't say it has one, but I had come across posts on here that mentioned there was a subscription fee.
If I'm looking at the wrong type of devices, lemme know please. :D




[Edited because apparently I hit paste too many times.. :D ]

Offline mcrossley

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Re: Was looking at Davis, but now not too sure.. Ideas welcome!
« Reply #13 on: September 24, 2024, 03:03:29 PM »
Ah, the EnviroMonitor range is their commercial offering. It is generally used by farms and the like that have a large number of sensors spread across a wide area. The LTE version uses the mobile phone network, which is where the fees come in.
Mark

Offline Cohote Mike

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Re: Was looking at Davis, but now not too sure.. Ideas welcome!
« Reply #14 on: September 24, 2024, 03:56:04 PM »
Ah, the EnviroMonitor range is their commercial offering. It is generally used by farms and the like that have a large number of sensors spread across a wide area. The LTE version uses the mobile phone network, which is where the fees come in.
Interesting then, so the only upload thing (other than their tablet/consoles is the WeatherLink Live thing. (Er, not including the commercial options, I mean. :D)
CumulusMX can access the Weatherlink Live data (which I think is similar to others like Weeex) and do its many usual thinks https://www.komokaweather.com/cumulusmxwll/index.htm 

Thanks to you both, ya'll have give me new things to consider. At least until I realize I'm over-thinking everything. I hadn't heard of CumulusMX before, it looks like a nice litlte program, and being able to upload web files would be perfect for a home-made console screen.

Offline vinceskahan

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Re: Was looking at Davis, but now not too sure.. Ideas welcome!
« Reply #15 on: September 24, 2024, 08:13:23 PM »
At this point I'm lost re: what you actually purchased but you're definitely overthinking this.

If you go minimalist Davis sensor only, then you can use a SDR to listen for it and the rtl-davis driver to get that data into weewx.  I have a github repo at https://github.com/vinceskahan/weewx-rtldavis for how I installed and set up rtl-davis, which can be a little frustrating to do.  The instructions are a bit outdated.  The link above worked for me FWIW.

If you want to go native Davis only, you'd need a Davis gateway device such as an Envoy as well as a datalogger plugged into it and your raspi.  In that case you'd run weewx with the native Vantage driver.  The datalogger gets you power-loss-safe behavior since weewx will gracefully catch up when power resumes to everything.   I have the ancient ugly 1970s-Heathkit-style VP2 console since my VP2 is 15+ years old now.

Nice thing about weewx is the Belchertown skin (dashboard) which looks great on phones and tablets such as a Kindle Fire using free FullyKioskBrowser.  You can also roll your own skins to any look'n'feel you want your local dashboard to look like.

But there are many alternate ways to get there....
WeeWX sites on a pi4:
  Davis VP2+DFARS
  EcoWitt GW1200, WH32 outdoor T+H, multiple WH31 indoor T+H, WH51 soilMoisture, WH34 soilTemp
  Davis AirLink (inside)
  PurpleAir (outside)
Home site:        https://www.skahan.net/  - sorry, but I block incoming other than US/CA/AU due to bots from elsewhere
Wunderground: KWAFEDER15
PWS:                KWFEDER15
CWOP:              CW6881

Offline Cohote Mike

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Re: Was looking at Davis, but now not too sure.. Ideas welcome!
« Reply #16 on: September 25, 2024, 12:10:33 PM »
At this point I'm lost re: what you actually purchased but you're definitely overthinking this.
The only thing I've bought so far is the SDL - wanted to see if it'd work with my RPi that I got out of storage. (It does, of course tho without anything to tune to, I'm not getting any packets, butit's recognizes.)

If you go minimalist Davis sensor only, then you can use a SDR to listen for it and the rtl-davis driver to get that data into weewx.  I have a github repo at https://github.com/vinceskahan/weewx-rtldavis for how I installed and set up rtl-davis, which can be a little frustrating to do.  The instructions are a bit outdated.  The link above worked for me FWIW.If you want to go native Davis only, you'd need a Davis gateway device such as an Envoy as well as a datalogger plugged into it and your raspi.  In that case you'd run weewx with the native Vantage driver.  The datalogger gets you power-loss-safe behavior since weewx will gracefully catch up when power resumes to everything.   I have the ancient ugly 1970s-Heathkit-style VP2 console since my VP2 is 15+ years old now.
Funny, I did a search on their (Davis) site, and 'Envoy' never came up. That's better than the WLL device I think. Thanks for that info, yeah.
And nice work on that Weewx install script! Once I decide which route I'll go, I will revisit this. I have weewx installed, and it seems to br running (though there's an issue with the generated HTML, but that's not important now here - since I will be using Weewx regardless of which Davis route I go, I'll start digging into that forum and catching up on everything.)


Thanks!-Mike

Offline PaulMy

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Re: Was looking at Davis, but now not too sure.. Ideas welcome!
« Reply #17 on: September 25, 2024, 12:28:43 PM »
Quote
Mike wrote:
and 'Envoy' never came up. That's better than the WLL device I think.
Quote
vinceskahan wrote:
If you want to go native Davis only, you'd need a Davis gateway device such as an Envoy as well as a datalogger plugged into it and your raspi.
The WLL is like an IP logger.
The Envoy/logger can have one-only access at a time, unless an IP logger.
Just so that you get the full picture.


Enjoy,
Paul

Offline TheBushPilot

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Re: Was looking at Davis, but now not too sure.. Ideas welcome!
« Reply #18 on: September 25, 2024, 01:30:56 PM »
With a budget like that, I’d inquire if you’ve considered building a system yourself with used parts? More flexibility, customizability, and a more robust communication architecture. [tup]


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Offline wd40

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Re: Was looking at Davis, but now not too sure.. Ideas welcome!
« Reply #19 on: September 25, 2024, 03:13:04 PM »
Just to add a bit.  I just purchased a month or so back a WS-5000.  A well laid out console with an ultrasonic wind speed detector.  A tipping factor for me was the ultrasonic wind sensor being just plain curious on how well it would work.  The wind is a 4 second update compared to the 2 second Davis.

The array is about 100 feet from the console with one brick wall in between. That is about the edge of the good connection with one brick wall.
The Davis Vue at some online sites  is about the same price as the ambient WS-5000.  The Ecowitt defiantly cheaper than both outside the USA.

As far as accuracy goes, location of the sensor array may impact that enough to suggest limiting investment in top grade equipment.


Offline mcrossley

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Re: Was looking at Davis, but now not too sure.. Ideas welcome!
« Reply #20 on: September 25, 2024, 06:26:22 PM »
The WLL does have the disadvantage of no local logger unlike the Envoy.

But one advantage it has is that it supports up to 8 ISS transmitters unlike the 1 on Envoy. This allows you to spilt sensors across transmitters as you like, like I do. I have solar and wind on one transmitter, and rain plus T/H on another. You cannot do that with a Envoy.
Mark

Offline Mattk

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Re: Was looking at Davis, but now not too sure.. Ideas welcome!
« Reply #21 on: September 25, 2024, 07:11:53 PM »
The WLL does have the disadvantage of no local logger unlike the Envoy...

And no local is a big backward step in functionality, that is all about Davis and not about the user.

Quote
....But one advantage it has is that it supports up to 8 ISS transmitters unlike the 1 on Envoy. This allows you to spilt sensors across transmitters as you like, like I do. I have solar and wind on one transmitter, and rain plus T/H on another. You cannot do that with a Envoy.

Just remember the Envoy8X supported 8 ID codes and that was back in 2010/11 so 8 ISS Tx in WLL is not exactly something new either.

Offline PaulMy

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Re: Was looking at Davis, but now not too sure.. Ideas welcome!
« Reply #22 on: September 25, 2024, 09:35:29 PM »
Quote
The WLL does have the disadvantage of no local logger unlike the Envoy.
Thin line, but the WLL does save data locally if there is a power and internet interruption, and then sends that saved data to WL.com when internet is restored.

Enjoy,
Paul

Offline Mattk

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Re: Was looking at Davis, but now not too sure.. Ideas welcome!
« Reply #23 on: September 25, 2024, 09:40:11 PM »
Quote
The WLL does have the disadvantage of no local logger unlike the Envoy.
Thin line, but the WLL does save data locally if there is a power and internet interruption, and then sends that saved data to WL.com when internet is restored.

And without power how long will the WLL run for until data is lost? Will it match the Envoy's 4 months  :grin:

Offline PaulMy

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Re: Was looking at Davis, but now not too sure.. Ideas welcome!
« Reply #24 on: September 25, 2024, 09:54:12 PM »
Quote
Will it match the Envoy's 4 months  :grin:
No, the WLL batteries won't last that long :-)
But my Envoy batteries also don't run that long with the IPlogger :-(
 
Enjoy,
Paul