Author Topic: WH57 Lightning Detector - lots of false positives (Read 2518 times)

charles_slc · « **on:** March 01, 2021, 11:45:36 AM »

Just added a WH57 Lightning detector to my setup..

I'm seeing lots of false positives...

This is Utah in Feb/Mar after all

I've tried having it indoors and outdoors. Also tried changing sensitivity to low...

Speaking of changing the sensitivity, according to the manual, the default is all switches down.. but my unit came with all the switches in what I would call the UP position. Notice in one of the other posts here, somebody else mentioned theirs came all UP also.

The diagrams are a bit confusing as they are black & white and the actual movable piece of the switch is white.
Thus, I think in the diagrams the black square represents the movable white switch correct?

I just moved all of them down, still saw false positives...so I've moved the last two up for low sensitivity..
Currently have the switch located indoors, on a outside wall.

Not really seeing much of a difference...

Here's a link to my ecowitt.net page
https://www.ecowitt.net/home/share?authorize=244HHS

Any thoughts?

Mandrake · « **Reply #1 on:** March 01, 2021, 12:00:14 PM »

From the manual:
Indoor/outdoor
Dip switch 1, default setting is for “outdoor”, no matter the sensor is placed indoor or outdoor, set this dip switch to outdoor to avoid system picks up noise and triggering false lightning.

Antenna
Dip switch 2, default setting is for long antenna, as this is the antenna used inside. Please do not make any change with this dip switch setting .

Sensitivity:
Dip switch 3,4 Default setting is for sensitivity between high and mid. If you think the sensor picked up a lot false lightning strikes , then please try with sensitivity Mid or Low. If sensor
missed lightning detection, you may try with high sensitivity setting. If set to high sensitivity and still has missed lightning detection, then you may try with Dip switch 1 for “Indoor” setting to make the system even with higher gain and make the system most sensitive.
Default for all the 4 switches are in Down Position.

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Great.Gonzos · « **Reply #2 on:** March 01, 2021, 02:52:57 PM »

Just ordered one with a GW1000 to add to my setup. Hope I see better results!

charles_slc · « **Reply #3 on:** March 01, 2021, 04:33:25 PM »

Quote from: Mandrake on March 01, 2021, 12:00:14 PM

From the manual:

I've read the manual, confusing as it may be given that the physical switches are white and the diagram apparently shows them as the black portion, not the white portion...

Also, as mentioned, all my switches were UP when I got the unit. As of now, I have them:
dn, dn, up, up.

But I'm still seeing false positives, 1-3/5min period; which is better than it has been...

Any suggestions? Do I have a bad unit perhaps?

Mandrake · « **Reply #4 on:** March 02, 2021, 12:55:47 PM »

Its possible that you have a faulty unit. Always easy to try replacing it.
I would do that if you have tried moving it around the house, placing it in an out building etc

Autofill · « **Reply #5 on:** March 02, 2021, 12:56:08 PM »

Does the WH57 show solid red (for 2 seconds), flashes?

If so, try doing a microwave test. A microwave will block almost all electrical interferences because its a faraday cage (you can test this by putting your cell phone in the microwave, and try calling it using another phone. If your microwave doesn't have any leaks, it should not ring...if it does, then you have another problem). Do NOT turn on your microwave, just put the devices in the microwave and close the door. That's it.

One thing to note is that when you put the WH57 in the microwave, it will also block signal to the console and it won't report any strikes (if it does, you have a leaky microwave), and thus you have to rely on the visual LED indicator. If you notice the visual LED indicator has reduced the number of times it blinks red, than you can probably rule out a bad detector, and its interference, somewhere in your home or neighbors, and thus your only hope is to relocate it somewhere and adjust dip switches.

charles_slc · « **Reply #6 on:** March 02, 2021, 02:57:01 PM »

I tired the microwave idea...

I still saw the LED light...and also it appears that the sensor didn't lose connectivity to the GW1000.

However, a bit of research seems to indicate that a (consumer) microwave doesn't make all that great of a Faraday cage..

I might play around with some aluminum foil...or come to think of it...I've got a nice surplus ammo can down in the basement..

Autofill · « **Reply #7 on:** March 02, 2021, 03:42:54 PM »

that's true, but this exercise is determine if outside interference or not. If you saw a reduction in flashing LEDs, then its probably not a defective sensor, but rather some sort of interference.

Aluminum foil wouldn't allow you to see the LED lights though, because remember, if your are blocking interference, than you may also very well be blocking signal to the console.

charles_slc · « **Reply #8 on:** March 02, 2021, 04:45:40 PM »

Assuming that the sensor is completely shielded...

I shouldn't see any flashes right? If I see any flashes, that would seem to indicate that the sensor is interfering with itself I would think.

And as far as the aluminum foil, I'd plan to wrap up the sensor and my phone, set to video recording..

In fact, both are in the afore mentioned ammo can as I type this.

I suppose the phone could be a source of interference ... guess I need to restart the test with the phone in airplane mode.

Autofill · « **Reply #9 on:** March 02, 2021, 05:05:49 PM »

This is a cool problem to solve!

Quote from: charles_slc on March 02, 2021, 04:45:40 PM

Assuming that the sensor is completely shielded...

I shouldn't see any flashes right? If I see any flashes, that would seem to indicate that the sensor is interfering with itself I would think.

Exactly so! Then this proves its defective because all external signals are blocked.

Quote from: charles_slc on March 02, 2021, 04:45:40 PM

And as far as the aluminum foil, I'd plan to wrap up the sensor and my phone, set to video recording..

In fact, both are in the afore mentioned ammo can as I type this.

I suppose the phone could be a source of interference ... guess I need to restart the test with the phone in airplane mode.

Exactly, I would think the phone could be an issue, but...the pattern should be different if its the phone causing interference. This is tricky...

charles_slc · « **Reply #10 on:** March 02, 2021, 06:36:47 PM »

So it turns out an unaltered ammo can doesn't make a good Faraday cage either...

The rubber gasket is the culprit, would need to remove and ensure the lid makes metal to metal contact with the rest of the box.

solartempest · « **Reply #11 on:** March 02, 2021, 08:06:09 PM »

Having analyzed and specified EMI/RFI testing of equipment, it is a difficult subject. Microwaves are only shielding against a very specific wavelength of radio waves which is why that doesn't work. Ammo can is not fully shielded as you mentioned either.

If possible to try outdoor a little ways but still within reception of your wifi? Assuming you don't have unusual equipment outside. If the number of readings decreases then that suggests interference. If no change then likely defective.

Also I don't think cell phones would interfere? The lighting sensing circuit is looking for a pattern of emissions. Most smartphones should not emit anything remotely close to that. Based on scientific testing and studies in the airline industry, some phones are culprits in emitting in other frequency ranges and patterns but not most.

Autofill · « **Reply #12 on:** March 02, 2021, 08:21:39 PM »

Well that's the thing with interference, it's detecting lightning like signals but it's not actually lightning, so any electronic device could be a culprit.

The microwave experiment was suggested not to eliminate the signal counts completely but to actually reduce it.

davidefa · « **Reply #13 on:** March 03, 2021, 07:56:08 AM »

I think you can test ( partially ) the functionality of the unit wrapping in aluminum foil, leaving only a small hole for the led.
In this condition it should not detect any strike ( and it should not connect to the base station ).
This only to rule out device is malfunctioning.

If the unit behaves correctly...
[MacGyver mode on]
...you can try to put it in a metallic container with one side open ( hoping it become a directional lightning detector ), turning around the box you could try to identify the interference direction.

NOTE
I suggest doing this late at night, when everybody is asleep... only not to have to explain what are you doing
[MacGyver mode off]

charles_slc · « **Reply #14 on:** March 03, 2021, 06:48:47 PM »

Quote from: solartempest on March 02, 2021, 08:06:09 PM

If possible to try outdoor a little ways but still within reception of your wifi? Assuming you don't have unusual equipment outside. If the number of readings decreases then that suggests interference. If no change then likely defective.

So around noon, I moved it from under the eaves on the back of my garage to a shed about 25-30' from the house...

You can see there was some change, but still numerous false positives...

I did email ecowitt the other day, but still waiting to hear back.

Cutty Sark Sailor · « **Reply #15 on:** March 04, 2021, 05:51:02 AM »

A "rogue's gallery" of VLF noise sources related to lightning detection / locating:
https://www.wxforum.net/index.php?topic=20439.0
...and watch noise vrs real signals at
https://frankfortweather.us/fwxBLPublic/index.html

davidefa · « **Reply #16 on:** March 04, 2021, 07:26:55 AM »

Quote from: charles_slc on March 03, 2021, 06:48:47 PM

So around noon, I moved it from under the eaves on the back of my garage to a shed about 25-30' from the house...

Seems like you are moving away from the noise source ( or you changed the orientation of the sensor's antenna )

charles_slc · « **Reply #17 on:** March 04, 2021, 11:13:19 AM »

Quote from: Cutty Sark Sailor on March 04, 2021, 05:51:02 AM

A "rogue's gallery" of VLF noise sources related to lightning detection / locating:
https://www.wxforum.net/index.php?topic=20439.0
...and watch noise vrs real signals at
https://frankfortweather.us/fwxBLPublic/index.html

Dammit Cutty, I'm a software guy not an EMR guy!

Ok, so I can't think of anything special inside my house or in my neighborhood that would cause interference. Few streetlights and no overhead power lines.

However, as I waited for my son's school bus this morning, I realized that the Francis Peak radar is pretty close (less than 4mi east according to google maps)

Also, 750' to the east, a major highway is being redone, so currently lots of construction..

For that matter Hill Airforce Base is about 6.25mi Northwest...

I heard back from Lucy, she wanted me to put switch 1,3,4 down and switch 2 up. I did that at about 7am...seems to have helped.

DC7DOC · « **Reply #18 on:** March 05, 2021, 02:59:21 AM »

Hi charles_slc

Try to put one "- pole" of the battery with a cable on ground. To do this, hammer a metal pipe into the ground and attach cables to it. The sensor doesn't have to hang high either, the 500khz run over the ground wave.

Alex

P.S.
Use "-pole" below the dip switches and not on the underside of the device

charles_slc · « **Reply #19 on:** March 05, 2021, 09:34:34 AM »

Quote from: DC7DOC on March 05, 2021, 02:59:21 AM

Hi charles_slc

Try to put one "- pole" of the battery with a cable on ground. To do this, hammer a metal pipe into the ground and attach cables to it. The sensor doesn't have to hang high either, the 500khz run over the ground wave.

Alex

P.S.
Use "-pole" below the dip switches and not on the underside of the device

Hi Alex, not sure I'm following...add a wire from the - pole of the battery to ground?
But I don't understand the "P.S. Use "-pole" below the dip switches and not on the underside of the device"

Don't suppose you've got a picture of such a setup?

Thanks!
Charles

DC7DOC · « **Reply #20 on:** March 05, 2021, 10:21:30 AM »

Hi Charles,

On the underside of the sensor, the two batteries are connected in series so that we have 3V on the chip / transmitter. So try a cable against the ground on the spring below the dip. As a radio amateur, I experiment a lot with antennas in this frequency range; or even deeper in the VLF area. By earthing you can avoid various disturbances. But we are here in the weather forum ... Try it.
If all does not work, move to Texas on a Farm where there is no military base and no radar

Alex

charles_slc · « **Reply #21 on:** March 05, 2021, 11:24:13 AM »

So just an update...

As mentioned, at 7am yesterday I moved switches 1,3,4 down and 2 UP per Lucy... it seems to have helped...
Interestingly, from about 10:30am to 2:15pm the interference stopped...but then started back up..

So I guess the good news is I don't have a faulty detector...the bad news seems to be I may have too much interference to actually use the thing.

I'm going to try the grounding idea and also see what Lucy as to say.

solartempest · « **Reply #22 on:** March 05, 2021, 11:52:31 AM »

If you are interested in the lightning sensor technical details, it is based on this chip: http://www.embeddedadventures.com/datasheets/AS3935_Datasheet_EN_v2.pdf

That was originally posted by Mandrake here (with other discussion/details if you have not seen them already):
https://www.wxforum.net/index.php?topic=38193.msg395803#msg395803

Rover1822 · « **Reply #23 on:** March 05, 2021, 12:06:16 PM »

Quote from: charles_slc on March 05, 2021, 11:24:13 AM

So just an update...

As mentioned, at 7am yesterday I moved switches 1,3,4 down and 2 UP per Lucy... it seems to have helped...
Interestingly, from about 10:30am to 2:15pm the interference stopped...but then started back up..

So I guess the good news is I don't have a faulty detector...the bad news seems to be I may have too much interference to actually use the thing.

I'm going to try the grounding idea and also see what Lucy as to say.

Interesting that you had a quiet time, just adds to the puzzle. The hours of the quiet time are unusual , but still interesting. I live closer to much larger naval and aircraft bases, and don't experience your false positives (my last reported lightning strike was 15 days ago and I heard it). But it may matter on what exactly is happening on those bases, or other sources.

Mandrake · « **Reply #24 on:** March 05, 2021, 12:18:08 PM »

As mentioned elsewhere these are simply radio receivers with some fancy algorithms to try and filter out the false man made electronic noise.
One experiment that you could try out of curiosity would be to tune a AM/MW radio to some static and just listen and see if you can hear the bursts that might be triggering your sensor.
If you can hear the bursts above the base static/white noise then its clear you live in a noisy environment and that there will be likely not much that you can do.
If you hear nothing it might still be that you have a slightly faulty sensor and the suggestion of grounding the sensor battery negative to earth might well help also.

News:

Author Topic: WH57 Lightning Detector - lots of false positives (Read 2518 times)