Author Topic: wired v wireless  (Read 1941 times)

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Offline davidmc36

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Re: wired v wireless
« Reply #25 on: June 16, 2025, 04:51:19 AM »
1
What appeals to me about a cabled system is what I’ll call  ‘simplicity’ both in design and troubleshooting; for me anyway - what might the average individual notice-if anything- about two of the same stations with one being cabled and one wireless with regard to data displaying/updating ?

To this 72yr old semi retired hvac tech the cabled install would have to be more reliable.

If you take the Columbia example, the only wired version that looks simple, is the standard RS232. Their other solutions to get farther than 200 feet, involve 485 convertes, or LAN converters. The latter adding troubles along that network to look out for.

If all else is basically equal, data type and frequency, it seems ANY cabling just adds failure points at any connectors. And if any of the insulation is soy based it better be well covered from rodents. They loved my 4 conductor stuff going to anny so now it is wireless.

Offline deltaT

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Re: wired v wireless
« Reply #26 on: June 17, 2025, 02:04:49 PM »
Wireless stations have no cable or connections?

Offline vinceskahan

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Re: wired v wireless
« Reply #27 on: June 17, 2025, 02:08:15 PM »
Wireless Davis VP2 and Vue outside sensor suites are solar.  You need to connect the a console or equivalent to power of course.  The sensor to console is radio.  No wires from outside to inside required.
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Offline johnd

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Re: wired v wireless
« Reply #28 on: June 17, 2025, 02:46:36 PM »
No wires from outside to inside required.

This is why we keep underlining the benefits of wireless as convenient installation and the lack of worries at a later date about cable damage or eg moisture ingress, interference pickup from a long cable or ground loops. The backup battery for the sensor transmitter lasts around 2 years, give or take, but of course it does depend on how sunny your location is, especially in the winter half of the year.
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Offline davidmc36

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Re: wired v wireless
« Reply #29 on: June 17, 2025, 04:30:02 PM »
I'm at 45 degrees and batteries last for years.

Offline WheatonRon

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Re: wired v wireless
« Reply #30 on: June 17, 2025, 04:37:46 PM »
The biggest issue I see with wireless is the number of channels available to you. As stated in a prior post I made, Davis has an 8 wireless channel communication limit, and in my case, I use 4 of them—3 for my ISSs and 1 for the anemometer. The other 4 channels at my house are available to other users—they are not currently being used by anyone. So if you lived next to several nearby users of Davis wireless products, you could be out of luck. Probably unlikely, but a small risk. What other manufacturers have available channel wise I don’t know.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2025, 04:56:31 PM by WheatonRon »
Davis VP2 with SHT31 (3 complete VP2 systems—2 with a daytime fan and 1 that has a 24 hour fan); CWOP--CW5020, FW3075 and FW4350; WU--KILWHEAT17, KILWHEAT36 and KILWHEAT39; WeatherCloud.net; CoCoRaHS--IL-DP-132; and Weatherlink 2.0

Offline johnd

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Re: wired v wireless
« Reply #31 on: June 18, 2025, 05:38:11 AM »
The biggest issue I see with wireless is the number of channels available to you.

TBH that is very rarely a limiting factor in practice. The great majority of Davis wireless stations use only the single ISS transmitter and hence a single wireless channel. If an additional transmitter is added then it tends to be the anemometer transmitter, but that's still only 2 wireless channels in use. So the chances of an insurmountable clash of channels is tiny in practice, especially when you also factor in the low probability that a nearby neighbour also has a wireless Davis station. Yes, it is a theoretical possibility but rarely a problem in practice.

That said, I do know of one user who is using all 8 channels on a single site.  :grin:
« Last Edit: June 18, 2025, 09:32:56 AM by johnd »
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Offline doubleohwhatever

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Re: wired v wireless
« Reply #32 on: June 18, 2025, 10:20:36 AM »
another request please, if someone could go to:

https://www.columbiaweather.com/resources/manuals-and-brochures/capricorn-flx-docs/capricorn-flx-brochure.pdf

scroll down to the spec's and perhaps put this station into perspective with the performance of Davis/Ambient/Rainwise equipment ?

Keep in mind that Columbia is more of an integrator than a manufacturer. They have their own datalogger but most (if not all) sensor hardware is rebranded. For example:
Pulsar > Lufft
Orion > Vaisala
Magellan > Gill
Capricorn > Texas Electronics + Others

I'm not saying this is a bad thing. I'm just adding additional information.

Offline davidmc36

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Re: wired v wireless
« Reply #33 on: June 18, 2025, 10:35:38 AM »
another request please, if someone could go to:

https://www.columbiaweather.com/resources/manuals-and-brochures/capricorn-flx-docs/capricorn-flx-brochure.pdf

scroll down to the spec's and perhaps put this station into perspective with the performance of Davis/Ambient/Rainwise equipment ?

At quick glance I see much the same resolution available on Davis, (better wind direction resolution on Davis, better Baro resolution on Cap), with nominal accuracy gains on the Capricorn.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2025, 10:37:36 AM by davidmc36 »

Offline johnd

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Re: wired v wireless
« Reply #34 on: June 18, 2025, 12:03:21 PM »
IMHO resolution is pretty much irrelevant. Where is the point in being wrong to 3 decimal places?

And actual accuracy tends to be dominated by sensor placement, eg height and exposure of the anemometer or screen performance for T/H values rather than intrinsic sensor accuracy, which is what tends to be quoted in these specification documents.
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Offline davidmc36

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Re: wired v wireless
« Reply #35 on: June 18, 2025, 01:53:12 PM »
IMHO resolution is pretty much irrelevant. Where is the point in being wrong to 3 decimal places?

And actual accuracy tends to be dominated by sensor placement, eg height and exposure of the anemometer or screen performance for T/H values rather than intrinsic sensor accuracy, which is what tends to be quoted in these specification documents.

My overall take was no appreciable difference in the hardware specs.

Offline johnd

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Re: wired v wireless
« Reply #36 on: June 18, 2025, 02:04:43 PM »
My overall take was no appreciable difference in the hardware specs.

Yes, I agree completely. Sorry, if I didn't make that clear The sensor intrinsic accuracy specifications on a Davis VP2 station are essentially as accurate as you will ever need, for all practical purposes. But there are other important considerations like sensor placement and height or eg whether you want a fan-assisted shield or not that can make a significant difference to the readings that you actually measure and that apply to any station, whatever its make. In other words, the on-paper specifications for the sensor elements are just a limited part of the overall accuracy picture and it's important to look beyond these.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2025, 02:40:12 PM by johnd »
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Offline deltaT

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Re: wired v wireless
« Reply #37 on: June 19, 2025, 06:43:49 AM »
Any reasons at all to opt for the Capricorn ?

Offline deltaT

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Re: wired v wireless
« Reply #38 on: June 19, 2025, 06:46:51 AM »
Going a step further, any reason at all to opt for any brand over any other?

Offline johnd

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Re: wired v wireless
« Reply #39 on: June 19, 2025, 08:40:51 AM »
Going a step further, any reason at all to opt for any brand over any other?

Don't think that anyone is saying that specifications are unimportant. The cheaper the station then, in general, the lower its specification will typically be. But you reach a point, which I would suggest is around that of a Davis VP2, where the intrinsic sensor specifications are essentially as good as any non-specialist user (eg excluding research and other specialist or licensed applications like airfields) is likely to require for all practical purposes, and where other factors like sensor placement and exposure become equally important to measuring accurate weather data.

But sure there are many other criteria that might apply, most obviously cost. But also country of origin, quality of manufacturer/dealer support, compatibility with existing standards or eg interface types or software, build materials, routine availability of calibration certificates, need for annual maintenance contracts, range of optional sensors including compatibility with 3rd party sensors, popularity (widely sold makes will tend to have extensive online support from forums such as here) etc etc, to name just a few off the top of my head.

And of course personal preference is a prime factor too. If your gut really tells you that you will always feel happier to have chosen a wired option then go for it. Just be aware that there are genuine and valid arguments on both sides of the wired vs wireless debate, so it will really be a subjective rather than objective decision. Your money, your choice! There really isn't a right or a wrong to this. All that commenters here can do is to lay out the arguments to consider, ie the pros and cons to each option. You can obviously weigh what's been said here as you please and then make the final choice.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2025, 09:24:23 AM by johnd »
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Offline deltaT

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Re: wired v wireless
« Reply #40 on: June 22, 2025, 03:30:57 PM »
Not a gut feeling but rather knowing what I am able to troubleshoot after 40 yrs or so in the hvac trade.  Wire/cable  connections are easy to troubleshoot-resistance is known or can be accurately determined for the run; without much effort one can either identify/eliminate hardwiring as an issue: not so much with me for electronics.

K-I-S-S for me, no substitute for old schooling; mass is your friend   :grin:

Offline davidmc36

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Re: wired v wireless
« Reply #41 on: June 22, 2025, 07:21:37 PM »
The cheesy phone cable and connectors on Davis system is what would make troubleshooting even necessary. Aside from a fraction of a fraction of a percent outliers, their wireless system just simply works.

Offline deltaT

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Re: wired v wireless
« Reply #42 on: June 23, 2025, 07:55:24 AM »
From what I have read the Davis that I and many others  have loved may/may not be the Davis of today after the sale of the Company.  If poor quality components are being used in one model isn't it reasonable and proper to presume that similar components are being used in all stations?

Offline johnd

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Re: wired v wireless
« Reply #43 on: June 23, 2025, 08:53:05 AM »
From what I have read the Davis that I and many others  have loved may/may not be the Davis of today after the sale of the Company.  If poor quality components are being used in one model isn't it reasonable and proper to presume that similar components are being used in all stations?

No, not at all. Davis have always used the same cabling system dating back at least 30-40 years and in general it lasts very well. But the cables, like most cables, are not rodent proof and any joints are really not recommended anywhere exposed to the weather, at least not without careful weatherproofing of the joints. (Best to use an adequately long single run of cable.)

As to other components, there is no sign that I can see of any reduction whatsoever in component quality. Davis stations have always had a good reputation for longevity in the field (much more so than other cheaper Chinese-made stations) and the latest versions with continuing improvements should be more robust than ever. The one item that is relatively new is the 6313 Weatherlink console. This has been in development for several years and its design and specification still predates the sale of the business. There have been criticisms of the architectural design of this new console (eg no local API) but the reliability of console operation seems generally fine thus far
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Offline WheatonRon

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Re: wired v wireless
« Reply #44 on: June 23, 2025, 09:13:24 AM »
From what I have read the Davis that I and many others  have loved may/may not be the Davis of today after the sale of the Company.  If poor quality components are being used in one model isn't it reasonable and proper to presume that similar components are being used in all stations?

It used to be all Davis parts were manufactured in the US. About the time of the sale, that changed and now some (many?) parts are made outside the US. As a long time user of Davis equipment, I really haven’t seen a decline in quality, but I have seen substantial price increases beyond inflation. For example, I just purchased the transmitter board (Davis part No. 7345.951) from Scaled Instruments for $325. The same part I bought in August 2016 for $99.95, also from Scaled Instruments. My guess is that former Davis management was slow to increase prices so new management had some catching up to do. My biggest issue with Davis is its focus on continuing revenue streams. Deleting the port on the console is forcing users to purchase a subscription to WeatherLink thus providing a continuing source of revenue to Davis. The free version of WeatherLink is inadequate and Davis knows that. The 6313 console is good looking, but it lacks key features of its precedessor, like the ability to change monthly rain readings, etc. All in all, I would give the new console a D for a grade, but I am hopeful Davis will see the shortcomings of the 6313 console and make a better one, but I wouldn’t bet the farm on it.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2025, 10:46:35 AM by WheatonRon »
Davis VP2 with SHT31 (3 complete VP2 systems—2 with a daytime fan and 1 that has a 24 hour fan); CWOP--CW5020, FW3075 and FW4350; WU--KILWHEAT17, KILWHEAT36 and KILWHEAT39; WeatherCloud.net; CoCoRaHS--IL-DP-132; and Weatherlink 2.0

Offline johnd

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Re: wired v wireless
« Reply #45 on: June 23, 2025, 09:41:37 AM »
It used to be all Davis parts were manufactured in the US.

Well, it depends how far back you go. In the WMII era, say 1990’s, I can imagine it was true.

But in the VP1/VP2 era, circuit boards and eg displays have, I suspect, been sourced from Asia for many years, long predating the sale of the business. Asia is just the place where the whole of electronics manufacturing at a competitive price is based. Are there any smartphones at all, other than specialist items, that are made in the US? But no-one seems to moan much about iPhone quality say.  And individual components have probably always come from worldwide sources. Isn’t Sensirion a Swiss company, for example, though I wouldn’t be surprised if its T/H sensors aren’t actually made in Taiwan perhaps?
« Last Edit: June 23, 2025, 09:43:08 AM by johnd »
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Offline PaulMy

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Re: wired v wireless
« Reply #46 on: June 23, 2025, 10:24:21 AM »
Another benefit of Davis wireless is that more than one receiver, i.e. old console, new console, Envoy, WLL, repeaters, etc., can be used at the same time.

Enjoy,
Paul

Offline deltaT

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Re: wired v wireless
« Reply #47 on: June 23, 2025, 11:20:17 AM »
Really appreciate the replies.

The Ambivalent display was really perfect for me providing all the info I was interested in seeing on one screen.  The 'D' grade from member WeatonRon has me more that a bit concerned and hopefully he and others can give me more info as to what I will NOT be able to view on a single screen of the Davis displays.  Until my panel failed I could view all the usual stuff; wind speed/direction/gust , temps, humidity, dew point and a few other bits of data including rainfall amounts which included totals on an: event, daily, monthly and yearly basis-is the Davis about the same?

For all concerned with cable splice/connection degradation-bicycle tube sections, wire ties and sillycone is all one should need for a permanent worry free buried  install.

Offline johnd

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Re: wired v wireless
« Reply #48 on: June 23, 2025, 12:09:52 PM »
The 'D' grade from member WeatonRon has me more that a bit concerned and hopefully he and others can give me more info as to what I will NOT be able to view on a single screen of the Davis displays.

You need to pay attention to the model numbers we are quoting. 6312C is the older/legacy cabled console. 6313 is the newer wireless-only design. So 6313 which Ron rates as D is really irrelevant to this discussion because 6313 is not currently available for cabled systems. (Personally I think D is a bit harsh because overall 6313 is hugely more capable than 6312, but does lack the local data port of the 6312 and some users hate this omission and so mark down the 6313 substantially. But of course it is all down to personal opinion and how important any missing features are to you. In a nutshell, the 6313 has a basic computer and software built into the console coupled with an option to do more sophisticated data handling in the cloud. But there is no option on the 6313 console itself to do all data handling on a separate local computer.)

Quote
For all concerned with cable splice/connection degradation-bicycle tube sections, wire ties and sillycone is all one should need for a permanent worry free buried  install.

Certainly, agreed. The problem is that all too often new users don’t understand this and make bad joints.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2025, 01:36:58 PM by johnd »
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Includes many details on 6313 Weatherlink console.
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Offline deltaT

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Re: wired v wireless
« Reply #49 on: June 27, 2025, 06:08:34 PM »
Decisions-decisions...

Need more time to make the best decision for us but we were both in data withdrawal so I went back to Amazon and scored a new console sold/shipped by Ambient/NK Home Products and received it-pristine condition- in less three days; New England; credit given where credit is due.

Got it installed and running today and we are both on our way to recovery.  What I found to be unbelievable was the condition of the WS2000 when I took it down-batteries have been replaced but this is the first cleaning in just under three years.  The white plastic was chalky in appearance and all the black plastic was completely dull and had taken on a gray hue-the rain collector, sans spikes, is apparently the preferred  pooping place for the local bird population-gross, bird spikes should be standard equipment. Are the visual changes to the plastic normal ?, remember Northeast US at least 100 miles from the coast with no manufacturing in town but with a plastics producer about 4 air miles away and in the prevailing wind .

An all electronic 'all in one' is being considered if and only if maint would be less of an issue and I would presume that at the cost  the plastic would be moe better-does anyone know ?

Forgot to add that the new display was $199.99 usd-'free' shipping.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2025, 06:14:21 PM by deltaT »