WXforum.net
Weather Station Hardware => Other Weather Station Hardware => Topic started by: Fox_Of_The_Wind on February 12, 2008, 03:03:14 PM
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I have been looking at this site http://www.mini-itx.com/ and there is a lot of fun small computer setup a person could make there. Anyone out there have a setup now of a mini motherboard computer? If you can you please give me some info about it?
THANKS!
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There's a review in PCWorld: http://www.pcworld.com/article/id,141954/article.html
But for $300, you could probably build a PC with better specs, still low power use, although you probably couldn't get that small a size factor...
There's the shuttle type box also. You'd just need a mobile/laptop CPU (low power consumption) and MB...
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oh I have a good setup right now. I was just wondering about the small PC's and was kind of thinking of one for my station down the road from now. I just think they are kind of neat being so small and yet still a computer.
Oh thanks for the link.
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In the right circumstances a mini-itx can be the right solution, but those circumstances are few and far between IMHO. The biggest issues to me are the cost from the "what are you really getting" point of view (as ncpilot points out), severe limitations in expandibility, lack of ports and in many cases optical drives, and limited upgrade options (most mini-itx boards have the CPU built-in for example). On the plus side they are small, power efficient and in most cases very quiet.
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For $150 it is hard to beat the good ol' NSLU2 with a usb to serial adapter and a USB flash drive.
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I've been trying some out. I've been thinking about maybe building them and selling them, configured for people like us weather nuts that use them for 24x7 applications. A normal "power efficient" desktop might draw 60 watts. But what I'm looking at is drawing around 5 watts. It's true that it costs more when you just look at bang for the buck. But at 15 cents a kilowatt hour, that 55 watt difference is about $72 per year in electricity cost. When you compare it to a full blown desktop system, a super low power PC could pay for itself in 2 years. The problem with buying an out of the box mini-itx is that they are often configured for media applications. That's not necessarily the same configuration as I would want for a dedicated weather station pc. What I would want is something that has a super low power draw (<8 watts), is entirely solid state, has no fans, and does not generate much heat. In addition, it must have all the desired ports (serial, usb, vga, ethernet, keyboard/mouse) as well as the option for wireless. Such a box is entirely possibly for around $250 with linux, and around $339 with Windows XP (legal copy). That's for a ready to go box that only needs to be hooked up to a monitor and keyboard, and only draws about 5 watts (an important point). If you relax the standards to be in the 30 watt range, you can lower the price about $60 because those motherboards are cheaper. Don't quote me on these prices. They're off the top of my head. Personally, I think they're a great idea. They wouldn't replace your normal computer. They would just free them from 24x7 operation so you could shut them off when you're not sitting in front of them, and save a bunch of kilowatts.
A note on the NSLU2. It is a great idea except for a couple things. First and foremost, it has what I consider a fatal design flaw for a 24x7 device. If it temporarily loses power, it reverts to the power off state when electricity comes back on. You have to manually press the soft power switch to turn it back on. There is a workaround, but it requires a fair amount of soldering and wiring. The other thing is that it is a very minimally capable unit as far as RAM and processor are concerned, and is not something you would ever even try putting something like windows on. I have a box on my desk right now that that does everything the NSLU2 can do, has more memory (128MB), more CPU power, has an Intel x86 compatible processor, VGA port, 2 serial ports, 4 USB ports, ethernet, keyboard/mouse port, has a mini-pci slot inside, is quite small, draws 3 to 4 watts, costs around $100. Not enough power to run windows (but I've run WinCE on it), but plenty for basic linux. So if something like the NSLU2 is what you're looking for, there are other options out there.
(http://www.softwx.com/files/DSC01660.JPG)
Steve
SoftWx
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A note on the NSLU2. It is a great idea except for a couple things. First and foremost, it has what I consider a fatal design flaw for a 24x7 device. If it temporarily loses power, it reverts to the power off state when electricity comes back on. You have to manually press the soft power switch to turn it back on. There is a workaround, but it requires a fair amount of soldering and wiring. The other thing is that it is a very minimally capable unit as far as RAM and processor are concerned, and is not something you would ever even try putting something like windows on. I have a box on my desk right now that that does everything the NSLU2 can do, has more memory (128MB), more CPU power, has an Intel x86 compatible processor, VGA port, 2 serial ports, 4 USB ports, ethernet, keyboard/mouse port, has a mini-pci slot inside, is quite small, draws 3 to 4 watts, costs under $100. Not enough power to run windows (but I've run WinCE on it), but plenty for basic linux. So if something like the NSLU2 is what you're looking for, there are other options out there.
Steve
SoftWx
Ok, so I'll bite, what is that box?
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It's just a little computer. It's made for thin client applications. It has mounting holes that match those on the back of most LCD monitors. So it can just be mounted on the back of a monitor. Add an OS and software and voila, you've got a thin client that takes no more space than the monitor itself. Inside it's an x86 compatible computer with bios. You add a Compact Flash card with an operating system on it and it runs that. I've tested it out with FreeDOS, WinCE, and PuppyLinux. It's not particularly fast, but it works, and is fine for embedded applications. There are actually quite a few devices out there like this that are comparable to the NSLU2.. But to have something that you could say is powerful enough to cover what most people call a desktop system, you need more than that.
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It's just a little computer. It's made for thin client applications. It has mounting holes that match those on the back of most LCD monitors. So it can just be mounted on the back of a monitor. Add an OS and software and voila, you've got a thin client that takes no more space than the monitor itself. Inside it's an x86 compatible computer with bios. You add a Compact Flash card with an operating system on it and it runs that. I've tested it out with FreeDOS, WinCE, and PuppyLinux. It's not particularly fast, but it works, and is fine for embedded applications. There are actually quite a few devices out there like this that are comparable to the NSLU2.. But to have something that you could say is powerful enough to cover what most people call a desktop system, you need more than that.
Interesting little computer, do you have a link to the vendor or where it can be purchased for a fair price?
Maybe the power up issue could be solved with a BIOS update from the manufacurer or is it a real design flaw?
Thanks.
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http://www.nslu2-linux.org/wiki/HowTo/ForcePowerAlwaysOn
The link above details the NSLU2 power issue and the various fixes
There are many places to buy the box I pictured, but it comes without any OS. Getting it set up with a bootable OS on a USB thumb drive or CF card is not for everyone. Also, one of the models comes with no FPU (as is the case with the NSLU2), so most linux distros won't work out of the box since most don't have floating point emulation compiled into the kernel. So the box requires some work to get it going. I was considering buying some in bulk, setting up the OS and then reselling them in a ready to plug in state. I'm afraid if I post the link, people will buy the bare system from them, not be able to get it running, and then complain that I've pointed them to something that doesn't work, and they wasted their money. But if you know how to make linux boot disks, etc. and are comfortable with that low level stuff, send me an email or PM on this forum, and I'll point you to the best place I've found to buy them, which is where I bought the two I have. There are some overseas sources, but I'm not sure I trust them, and the shipping is probably prohibitive. I'm not saying this is the best system of its kind. I originally mentioned it as an example. I am still evaluating them, and until I'm done, I can't recommend them. So far they seem to perform to their specs. But they aren't the only ones I'm evaluating.
Steve
SoftWx
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http://www.nslu2-linux.org/wiki/HowTo/ForcePowerAlwaysOn
The link above details the NSLU2 power issue and the various fixes
There are many places to buy the box I pictured, but it comes without any OS. Getting it set up with a bootable OS on a USB thumb drive or CF card is not for everyone. Also, one of the models comes with no FPU (as is the case with the NSLU2), so most linux distros won't work out of the box since most don't have floating point emulation compiled into the kernel. So the box requires some work to get it going. I was considering buying some in bulk, setting up the OS and then reselling them in a ready to plug in state. I'm afraid if I post the link, people will buy the bare system from them, not be able to get it running, and then complain that I've pointed them to something that doesn't work, and they wasted their money. But if you know how to make linux boot disks, etc. and are comfortable with that low level stuff, send me an email or PM on this forum, and I'll point you to the best place I've found to buy them, which is where I bought the two I have. There are some overseas sources, but I'm not sure I trust them, and the shipping is probably prohibitive. I'm not saying this is the best system of its kind. I originally mentioned it as an example. I am still evaluating them, and until I'm done, I can't recommend them. So far they seem to perform to their specs. But they aren't the only ones I'm evaluating.
Steve
SoftWx
Steve,
I am more interested in running a version of Windows, 2000 or XP.
If it will work either, that would be great.
Thanks.
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Of that product line, one model may be able to run XP (and I stress "may"), but not the model that I pictured. I haven't gotten that far in my evaluation. I'll be doing the XP tests next week. It only has 128MB so it may or may not work. I've had some experience building stripped, custom installs of XP that are small and fast. Until it died because of a water spill, I had a dedicated weather PC running on a pentium3 with 128MB. It was running a stripped down XP install and worked quite well. That's what I was hoping to do with these.
There are units from other manufacturers that definitely will run XP, coming with 256MB. But as the CPU and memory get better, the price goes up. There is another 5 watt unit I'll also be testing next week that should be able to run XP. But it isn't sold as a complete unit like the one I pictured above. You have to buy the bits similar to building your own desktop system. If you're ok with going above the 5 watt power area, then there are tons of options. There are the VIA boards, and the much cheaper, more powerful, but somewhat more power consuming Intel board
http://www.e-itx.com/intel-d201gly2-mini-itx-desktop-board.html
Note that although the Intel motherboard I linked above is fanless, it runs hot, and requires a case fan. When you get into these type mini-itx boards, they are drawing more power. The VIAs at 15-20 watts and the Intel above at 20-25 watts. Heat becomes an issue, so it's harder to safely go fanless. Personally, it's these 8 watt and under fanless, solid state solutions that are interesting to me.
If low power, but not ultra low power is what you're looking for, this barebones system may be interesting: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16856167012
It comes with the CPU. You just need to add a memory module and a storage device (and add keyboard, etc.). But that price isn't too bad for a VIA motherboard, case and power supply.
There is an amazing amount of options out there, but the prices on a lot of them are really higher than I think they should be, and the markups at different outlets are highly variable.
Steve
SoftWx
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Of that product line, one model may be able to run XP (and I stress "may"), but not the model that I pictured. I haven't gotten that far in my evaluation. I'll be doing the XP tests next week. It only has 128MB so it may or may not work. I've had some experience building stripped, custom installs of XP that are small and fast. Until it died because of a water spill, I had a dedicated weather PC running on a pentium3 with 128MB. It was running a stripped down XP install and worked quite well. That's what I was hoping to do with these.
There are units from other manufacturers that definitely will run XP, coming with 256MB. But as the CPU and memory get better, the price goes up. There is another 5 watt unit I'll also be testing next week that should be able to run XP. But it isn't sold as a complete unit like the one I pictured above. You have to buy the bits similar to building your own desktop system. If you're ok with going above the 5 watt power area, then there are tons of options. There are the VIA boards, and the much cheaper, more powerful, but somewhat more power consuming Intel board
http://www.e-itx.com/intel-d201gly2-mini-itx-desktop-board.html
Note that although the Intel motherboard I linked above is fanless, it runs hot, and requires a case fan. When you get into these type mini-itx boards, they are drawing more power. The VIAs at 15-20 watts and the Intel above at 20-25 watts. Heat becomes an issue, so it's harder to safely go fanless. Personally, it's these 8 watt and under fanless, solid state solutions that are interesting to me.
If low power, but not ultra low power is what you're looking for, this barebones system may be interesting: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16856167012
It comes with the CPU. You just need to add a memory module and a storage device (and add keyboard, etc.). But that price isn't too bad for a VIA motherboard, case and power supply.
There is an amazing amount of options out there, but the prices on a lot of them are really higher than I think they should be, and the markups at different outlets are highly variable.
Steve
SoftWx
Thanks for the great info. Please keep us informed as to how your testing works out.
I would like to get a low-power system dedicated to the weather station and other home automation projects.
It would be nice to stick with Windows to have the largest selection of software and drivers.
I have no problem using 2000 as well. The copy I am running right now has been stable since 2000, running 24x7 on a 512MB machine with Anti-virus running.
Thanks!
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... But at 15 cents a kilowatt hour, that 55 watt difference is about $72 per year in electricity cost. ....
Yikes! We're right around 7 cents per KWH here. :shock:
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Ours is around 6.5 cents, but we're mostly hydro. Nationwide, 15 cents is not an unreasonable figure to use. Here are the facts:
http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/electricity/epm/table5_6_a.html
The northeast is almost all 14 cents and higher. Hawaii is 26 cents. New York is 17. Connecticut is 18. It's not just cost though. For some it's the "green" thing. If you can do the same thing with less energy, why not do it.
Steve
SoftWx
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Thanks everyone for the info! I have a lot to readup on.
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Google on Tiny XP...
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... But at 15 cents a kilowatt hour, that 55 watt difference is about $72 per year in electricity cost. ....
Yikes! We're right around 7 cents per KWH here. :shock:
Here in PG$E land, the rates are tiered and go up with consumption. We're in the 4th tier with our winter consumption, and paying...
sit down...
hang on to something...
about 34 cents per KWH for all the consumption in the 4th tier.
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... But at 15 cents a kilowatt hour, that 55 watt difference is about $72 per year in electricity cost. ....
Yikes! We're right around 7 cents per KWH here. :shock:
Here in PG$E land, the rates are tiered and go up with consumption. We're in the 4th tier with our winter consumption, and paying...
sit down...
hang on to something...
about 34 cents per KWH for all the consumption in the 4th tier.
Triple Yikes! If electric rates rose to that level around here, given the average income many of us would be back to heating and cooking with wood and coal. :-k
I would have to build a steam powered generator for the computer, weather station and use a natural gas air conditioner and refrigerator. That also reminds me, time to resurrect my search for a home with a spring and/or a natural gas or oil well. ;)
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I've heard there's a lot of drilling for natural gas up in northern OH--Cuyahoga, Geauga, etc... counties...
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Thanks for the great info. Please keep us informed as to how your testing works out.
I would like to get a low-power system dedicated to the weather station and other home automation projects.
This was what I was thinking about as well. I've been fooling around with some embedded PICs and the like, but they don't really do everything I need to do with ease.
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I've heard there's a lot of drilling for natural gas up in northern OH--Cuyahoga, Geauga, etc... counties...
They don't seem to be drilling as much around here as they used to. Still see few of the smaller pumps running and tanks around mainly in Perry and Hocking county to our East and South. I still remember one customer in particular, an elderly lady that lived by herself in a huge old family farm house with steam heat and gas fireplaces. One very cold winter day I was there and mentioned how toasty and nice it felt in the old house compared to outside. She said that's only because I have free gas from the well out in the back pasture. I looked around and along with the steam heat she also had the old fashioned gas fired ceramic heaters in every fireplace lit. :lol:
Must have been a good 85F in there. By time I left after working inside for about a half hour, I was drenched in sweat and froze my assets off for a good 2 hours in the service truck after word. #-o
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More a bit back on topic, I found another review:
http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,1697,2259645,00.asp
Lots of pictures...
Continue to end of article for link to review on Fit PC
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More a bit back on topic, I found another review:
http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,1697,2259645,00.asp
Lots of pictures...
Continue to end of article for link to review on Fit PC
Thanks for the review!
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I did some testing, and the unit I mentioned earlier (the 128 MB unit) is able to run a stripped down version of XP. I was able to run VirtualVP and VPLive with some headroom of processor time and memory still left over. It wouldn't be enough to run something larger like Weather Display though.
I also tested another unit described below:
I am considering building and selling these. I have approached this with the idea of what I would really like to have. I'd like to know if I'm the only one, or if anyone is interested. I've spec'ed out several options, but this one seems interesting for those wanting to run WIndows. It is entirely fanless and solid state. It would be capable of running applications like WeatherDisplay. Here is a snapshot of the screen, running StartWatch, VirtualVP, VPLive, WeatherDisplay and TaskManager. Note that there is still resources to spare. VirtualVP is connected to a VP1 console with no ISS, so that's why only the console sensors are showing data.
(http://www.softwx.com/files/WxBoxScreen.jpg)
It's a 256MB box running a custom stripped down version of Windows XP. It draws 4 to 5 watts (less than most VIA motherboards) and runs cool. It has USB 2.0 ports, serial port, VGA port, ethernet, keyboard/mouse port, and audio ports. It can be fitted out with an optional internal wireless 802.11 mini card. Dimensions of the case are about 7"x7"x1.4". It has mounting holes for attaching to the back of an LCD monitor. It would NOT include the keyboard, mouse and monitor. This is a complete computer that can run most anything except the heavyweight applications. With an internal 2GB flash disk for hard drive (4GB is an option), power supply and cord, and a legal XP license, I think it would be under $400. Note that XP is about $90 of that, so a linux version would be cheaper by that amount. Internal wireless adds about $50. Here is what it looks like:
(http://www.softwx.com/files/WxBox.jpg)
What I'd like to know is whether this turnkey software box is interesting to anybody, or should I stop with the one I built for myself?
Steve
SoftWx
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What I'd like to know is whether this turnkey software box is interesting to anybody, or should I stop with the one I built for myself?
Steve
SoftWx
I am just wondering, based on the energy savings (I pay 7.5 cents per KH), how long would it take to pay for itself?
Thanks.
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I am considering building and selling these. I have approached this with the idea of what I would really like to have. I'd like to know if I'm the only one, or if anyone is interested. I've spec'ed out several options, but this one seems interesting for those wanting to run WIndows. It is entirely fanless and solid state. It would be capable of running applications like WeatherDisplay.
It's a 256MB box running a custom stripped down version of Windows XP. It draws 4 to 5 watts (less than most VIA motherboards) and runs cool. It has USB 2.0 ports, serial port, VGA port, ethernet, keyboard/mouse port, and audio ports. It can be fitted out with an optional internal wireless 802.11 mini card. Dimensions of the case are about 7"x7"x1.4". It has mounting holes for attaching to the back of an LCD monitor. It would NOT include the keyboard, mouse and monitor. This is a complete computer that can run most anything except the heavyweight applications. With an internal 2GB flash disk for hard drive (4GB is an option), power supply and cord, and a legal XP license, I think it would be under $400. Note that XP is about $90 of that, so a linux version would be cheaper by that amount. Internal wireless adds about $50. Here is what it looks like:
What I'd like to know is whether this turnkey software box is interesting to anybody, or should I stop with the one I built for myself?
It's certainly interesting to me, as I have a number of projects such a beast might be useful for. Not looking for Windows on it, however, some flavor of posix un*x is fine :)
A question though, are any of the USB ports available inside the box? The reason I ask, is you can easily get 8GB thumb drives for storage vs a 2-4GB flash disk, or is the flash disk using a USB interface already?
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Yes, there is an unused USB header inside, as well as an IDE header. So putting in an internal USB thumb drive (Super Talent makes them, they're made to plug right onto the header) is a possibility as is an IDE disk on module. Besides those there is the internal Compact Flash slot, which is what I am using. So there are a lot of options. I've mainly been looking at the default configuration from the standpoint of balancing cost and performance. But if you want to pay more, there are larger storage options. This motherboard can also be put in a standard mini-itx case if you wanted the option of adding a 2.5" drive. But the standard mini-itx cases are a bit of overkill with this board. It runs completely cool - it doesn't even have any heat sinks, so needs no fans, and it requires no external power supply other than the little power adapter/cable (which is not a brick, it's more like the power adapter for a cell phone).
As for linux, there are lots of options there. I currently have a CF card set up with PCLinuxOS mini 2008, which I happen to like a lot, since I can choose what fills my disk space, but loading in packages is easy. It runs quite well when I boot it up with that. Not having Windows on it brings the price down quite a bit. I am moving towards linux myself. I've spent a lot of time writing windows apps (I started before windows 3.1), Microsoft is really getting quite good at alienating customers. Their efforts have succeeded with me.
Steve
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Regarding energy savings, that's hard to say because there are a number of ways to approach the calculation. One way would be if you are currently running your weather software on a beefy computer that runs 24x7 and draws, say 140 watts. This device would allow you to turn that off when you aren't sitting in front of it. Let's say you can then turn it off for 12 hours that it would otherwise be running. So the calculation (I think) would be 12 x (140-5) * 365 = 591 kilowatt hours. 591 * .075 = $44 savings per year. The equation is dependent on how you determine the energy you're saving, and what your top tier power rate is (not your average rate).
Steve
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I hooked up my clamp on amp meter to the plug on my UPS. With my monitor off the computer and USB hardrive and powered USB hub are drawing 0.8 amps average or 0.8x118V (measured)=94.4 Watts. So I would probably only run it 5 hours in the evenings if I were to start turning it off.
((94.4 Watts x 5 Hrs. x 365 Days) / 1000) x (0.07 Cents per KWH) = $12.06 Cost per Year
compared to
((94.4 Watts x 24 Hrs. x 365 Days) / 1000) x (0.07 Cents per KWH) = $57.89 Cost per Year for 24/7 operation
Low power computer on 24/7 drawing 5 watts would be
((5 Watts x 24 Hrs. x 365 Days) / 1000) x (0.07 Cents per KWH) = $3.07 Cost per Year
So $400 / ($57.89 - $12.06 - $3.07) = 9.36 Years to pay for the low power computer.
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Yes, there is an unused USB header inside, as well as an IDE header. So putting in an internal USB thumb drive (Super Talent makes them, they're made to plug right onto the header) is a possibility as is an IDE disk on module. Besides those there is the internal Compact Flash slot, which is what I am using. So there are a lot of options. I've mainly been looking at the default configuration from the standpoint of balancing cost and performance. But if you want to pay more, there are larger storage options.
As for linux, there are lots of options there. I currently have a CF card set up with PCLinuxOS mini 2008, which I happen to like a lot, since I can choose what fills my disk space, but loading in packages is easy. It runs quite well when I boot it up with that.
Ah, very cool, I literally have dozens of CF cards laying around (filled with pics) that this would be good to reuse them.
One of the projects I'm sort of working on is to provide basic weather station capabilities for missionaries in the field (principally aviation missionaries) who are really out in the boonies, if I could setup a wireless VP2, plus computer on a ~25W solar panel, with a short range VHF radio, that would be very good.
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Ah, very cool, I literally have dozens of CF cards laying around (filled with pics) that this would be good to reuse them.
One of the projects I'm sort of working on is to provide basic weather station capabilities for missionaries in the field (principally aviation missionaries) who are really out in the boonies, if I could setup a wireless VP2, plus computer on a ~25W solar panel, with a short range VHF radio, that would be very good.
That would make a great article for the Davis newsletter...
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Here is another possibility for a stand alone computer to gather weather data:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00114T9WY/ref=noref/103-3737816-8709415?ie=UTF8&s=pc (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00114T9WY/ref=noref/103-3737816-8709415?ie=UTF8&s=pc)
It has a low max screen resolution, but other than that, it would make a nice embedded linux box.
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The eeePCs are nice, and a great idea. They aren't fanless though, and use in the range of 16 to 24 watts, depending on whether the battery is fully charged or charging.
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Don't know if this link appeared in the prior posts:
http://www.mini-itx.com/
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I'm in the process now of setting up a new station (VP2 & Boltek PCI) and have it all up and running on an EPIA MII-12000 mini-itx system.
Here's the board I'm using:
http://www.via.com.tw/en/products/mainboards/motherboards.jsp?motherboard_id=202 (http://www.via.com.tw/en/products/mainboards/motherboards.jsp?motherboard_id=202)
It has 2 serial ports, 4 USB 2.0 ports, a PCI slot (that's what the Boltek is in), and even 1 CardBus Type I and Type II slot +1 CompactFlash Slot (as well as a bunch of other features including an I2C bus too!). I currently have a 3G PCMCIA card in it providing Internet access (no DSL in my area yet). I'm running XP Pro SP2 on it (on a 2.5" HDD) but plan on getting it to boot and run primarily from a CF card and only use the HDD for storage. It is pretty quiet and is fast enough to do everything I want it to. At first I was a little concerned about the lack of PCI slots, but depending on the case, you can expand it to 2. The only other plans I have are a water level sensor for the lake (data input via second serial port), and possibly a USB webcam.
It's perfect!
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And no link to your site????? ;)
My WX computer has frozen up today, as is obvious by the last update of 9:30 AM... can't remote into it, so it's got to be the PC. My network is ok because I can see my three network cams with no problem (yet another reason why I like network cams)...
It's been a bit flaky lately, especially after adding memory, could be it's time to do a fresh install of the OS and rebuild only the apps I need (it's quite cluttered with crap--that I installed... )
But it has got me thinking about an ITX solution, especially for lower power consumption. Current PC has an AMD 64 3000+... and a hefty power supply, but I suppose mostly it's running at idle with just WeatherLink, and the occasional FTP of hi-res images--so maybe power consumption isn't that bad... but it is on 24/7...
Nice to have the optional slots and other stuff... but I might go for more of a plain jane or micro/pico-ITX... it's only money! :lol:
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Been waiting for this development:
http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,1697,2280889,00.asp
Intel has been selling their ITX boards for about $75 or so. The current ones use SiS chips, the new one will use Intel chipsets...
http://www.mini-itx.com/2008/03/06/intel-planning-atom-based-mini-itx
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Time to revive this thread!!!!!!
Directed mostly at tinplate, since he's done so much hardware development in the mini-itx area...
Any thoughts on all the new netbooks popping up lately? Asus, MSI, Dell, HP, Acer, Lenovo... I know there was a brief mention of the Asus back in a Feb post by tinplate--but since then there has been almost an explosion of netbooks...
I've been thinking about putting together a mini-itx solution, but buying something like a netbook might be close enough. A nice side benefit is that with a power outage, you've got a built-in 3 hour or so UPS. Plus it has a monitor. Still relatively small form factor...
Big question is how much power will they really draw under operation compared to a home-built min-itx with a hard drive?
$120 for an Intel Atom board with PS, add $90 for XP Home, $70 for a 60GB HD, $15 1GB DDR2 533 = $300 rounded up... did I miss anything?
New Intel SSD with more robust architecture to handle write operations--expected 5 year lifespan with 20GB written/day, 1.2 Million Hours MTBF--but no pricing yet!
Who's gonna be the first to buy one as their dedicated weather computer??
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I guess it'll be me. WXForum newbie. Just got an "open box" Asus eee PC 4G/701 for under $200! :) SPECIFICALLY for use as a host for my new Davis VP2 wireless weather station. I'll start a new thread...
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I recently bought my wife one of the little Acer Aspire 1 mini-laptops from ewiz.com (now called SuperBiiz) http://www.ewiz.com/detail.php?name=AA150-1049 although it was on sale for $389 when I bought it. It's a nice little computer - just right for her. The keyboard is a little bigger than the first eeepcs. Battery life is quite good - a little over 5 hours. Plugged in, with a charged battery, it draws 12 to 17 watts according to my Kill-A-Watt meter. This value changes frequently depending on what the computer is doing. Average is 14 or 15 watts. That's not bad considering it has a conventional hard drive, and an 8" LCD screen as well.
By comparison, the box I'm using for my dedicated weather computer http://softwx.3dcartstores.com/WxPC-Ga-Ultra-Low-Power-Computer_p_24.html draws 4-5 watts, with solid state memory for a hard drive, and no display. That little weather box has been running flawlessly since I set it up last spring. Check out the uptime stats from VirtualVP!
(http://www.softwx.com/files/images/vpWxpc.jpg)
That's 6 months without a reboot or hiccup of any kind. The only thing was a brief disconnect from the console, which VirtualVP recovered, when I moved my console. I think the people who say that using compact flash memory as a hard drive will fail within months are simply wrong. Modern flash memory with wear leveling, etc. should have quite decent life spans.
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Those little WxPCs look neat! Decent price, too. I checked the operation of my eee PC and it draws about 16 watts with the whole thing running flat out, but only about 2 watts when in standby.
I meant to add that normally it draws 10-12 watts when it is running. Only when reading/writing etc. does it hit 16 watts.
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Wow, an already established note for what I wanted to talk about!
About two months ago I started thinking about standing up a PC totally dedicated to my weather station, and wondering about how low I could go with power, size and storage without having to really shoehorn anything together. So I was thinking small, but at the same time I didn’t want to expend too much effort as well. So I was poking around Tiger direct, and lo and behold came upon an Intel mini-ITX motherboard with a single core Atom processor. After a couple days of quality time with Google and “mini-ITX” I had ordered the parts for a system (it’s been years since I put a system together, so this was kinda fun too!).
The guts of my weatherstation PC:
Intel single core 1.6ghz Atom processor motherboard (http://www.intel.com/Products/Desktop/Motherboards/D945GCLF/D945GCLF-overview.htm) A caution on this motherboard: older stock has a heatsink that’s too tall and you need to buy an optional, shorter one to work in most mini-ITX boxes. Ask the seller which height you’re getting, or, at this point spring for the extra ~$20 and get the dual core version mentioned below which comes with the shorter heatsink.
Mini-Box M200 case (http://www.mini-box.com/M200-Enclosure_2?sc=8&category=87)
Mini-Box 90watt power supply (http://www.mini-box.com/picoPSU-90-power-kit?sc=8&category=981) A caution here too: older stock has the wires to the SATA power conector coming off the side, rather than the end of the connector which doesn't work for connecting to a surface-mounted SATA drive (the M200 box's mounting method). Ask the seller to send you a power supply that has the wires coming into the end of the SATA power connector.
Patriot 32gig SATA SSD (http://www.patriotmem.com/products/detailp.jsp?prodline=4&catid=21&prodgroupid=83&id=735&type=17)
Kingston 2gig DDR (http://www.ec.kingston.com/ecom/configurator_new/PartsInfo.asp?root=us&LinkBack=http://www.kingston.com&ktcpartno=KVR667D2N5/2G) (why 2gig? As cheap as memory is, why not?)
The SSD is overkill, but the PC’s application has expanded to include running some of my USB-based audio/visual equipment as well, so the extra elbow room for storage was welcome. Also, if I had to do it all over again, I might choose the Morex 5667 case and power supply (http://www.e-itx.com/morex-5677.html) instead of the M200 and picoPSU-90 power supply.
I also bought an external optical drive to initially bring up the system with:
HP dvd1040e 20x DVD (http://www.shopping.hp.com/store/product/product_detail/GJ293AA%2523ABA)
Though if you have an old PATA or SATA optical sitting around, I’d cable it up externally (temporarily) and avoid the cost of the external. Once I was up and running and connected to the network, I got everything from the network, so I disconnected the optical drive.
I’ll supply more details later (as well as some pictures), but suffice to say anyone who is very comfortable cabling together a stereo system can put this PC together, though there are some tight spots that you have to deal with.
Also, I became so enamored with how small the box was, I put together a second system almost like it, but substituting a 2.5” SATA HDD and the Intel dual core 1.6ghz Atom processor motherboard (http://www.intel.com/products/desktop/motherboards/D945GCLF2/D945GCLF2-overview.htm) (this one comes with a shorter heatsink, unlike the single-core one mentioned above). I’m pushing this one to see just how much it’s capable of, and so far I’m pretty tickled by its performance (I’m using it now to compose this post). So far I’ve only seen hesitation on 1080p movies and Google Earth, and the slight hesitations in Google Earth are easily tolerated. If you’re a heavy multi-tasker it’d probably bog down but I’m a serial kinda guy so it works just great. And given I have the box mounted up UNDER my desk, I’ve got a lot more [physical] desktop than I did when I had my huge system up on it!
mini-ITX resources to start your research:
http://www.mini-itx.com/ (already mentioned)
http://www.e-itx.com/ (motherboards, cases, power supplies and barebones)
http://www.mini-box.com/ (motherboards, cases, power supplies and barebones)
http://www.logicsupply.com/ (motherboards, cases, power supplies and barebones)
By no means exhaustive, but a good place to start. As for 2.5" drives, etc. I'm a big fan of TigerDirect.com (http://www.tigerdirect.com/) which is where I got the 32gig Patriot SSD for $90!
Hope this helps, if you’ve got any questions, I’ll try and answer them! I need to dig a system out and take a picture of it against somethig for scale.
Roak
Ps. Not mini-ITX, but for about the price of just the XP Pro license alone, you can get a refurbished HP XP Pro desktop from TigerDirect.com (http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=4187663&CatId=2645)
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I have a friend who just got a laptop for Christmas that has the Atom processor and was wondering how well it works since I had never heard much about that particular one.. Is it working fairly fast?
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I have a friend who just got a laptop for Christmas that has the Atom processor and was wondering how well it works...
I think the dual-core Atom works very, very well for what I'm doing. I wouldn't go with it for heavy-duty video editing or doing huge system compiles, but for reading email, cruising the web, writing documents, creating web pages, printing (I have three printers, one scanner and one all-in-one connected to this little system), updating the Palm and iPhone, etc. -- how 95% of us or more use our computers -- it works great! Keep in mind there's a single core Atom and a dual-core -- for the small price difference I'd stick with the dual core version.
Yesterday I used a friend’s 1.6 GHz Centrino processor-based computer (about a year old) and it was a dog by comparison to the dual-core 1.6 GHz Atom.
One downside I should mention about these systems – they use itty-bitty fans, and because of their size and speed that they run, they whine. Compared to today’s desktops, which are virtually silent, the fan-based mini-ITX systems make some noise.
You can go fanless, and consume next to nothing power-wise, but you pay for it. A mini-ITX motherboard based on VIA’s Eden processor (http://www.via.com.tw/en/products/mainboards/motherboards.jsp?motherboard_id=473) (available here (http://www.e-itx.com/via-epia-ln10000eg.html)) is about the cheapest fanless motherboard at about $125, compared to Intel’s dual-core Atom which is about $85. And for more money you get less speed and only one core. I can tolerate a little fan noise for $40 and more speed. :)
Now, if you’re trying to make a bare-minimum power system like tinplate was discussing early in this thread then by all means you have a reason to pay more to consume less power or go to a nano- or pico- form factor. But if you’re just trying to cut your home power costs, I believe the Intel dual-core Atom processor motherboard (http://www.intel.com/products/desktop/motherboards/D945GCLF2/D945GCLF2-overview.htm) (available here (http://www.e-itx.com/intel-d945gclf2.html)) is the way to go -- it's in the price-performance "sweet spot".
Roak
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Thanks for the info! I am using a mix of AMD and Intel P4 processors here. The AMD is in my weather server and I have a file server ( Dell Power Edge) that is running a P4 as well as the main desktop. I can say I am a little disappointed in the AMD dual core notebook processors! I have one in a Inspiron 1501 and it seems lots slower than my old Inspiron 6000 with a celeron 1.3 which I now use at work.
I may look into that particular form factor at some point but hopefully what I have will hold me for awhile...least ways I sure hope it does :)
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Here's an ITX-like low power solution. :)
http://www.flickr.com/photos/34944117@N05/3243734447/
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While the mini ATX is kinda cool, I have been using Dell GX620 because of their pretty decent price on eBay. Stay at the 3ghz or above for good performance. There are 4 flavors of this line...the full tower....the desktop (uses a full size CDrom\burner)....the small desktop\small form (about the size of an 8x8 cake pan and uses a floppy CDrom\burner)......and the ultra small form which is the size of a large encyclopedia but has an external power brick. I got several of the desktop units for around $175. I am running XP\Win 7 beta in a dual boot config and it runs great. The ultra small cube units look great but I have a cd burner internal for installation and back up and the GX620 gives me 8 USB ports. The only thing is these units use low profile PCI cards. I have a USB wireless adapter on 2 of mine because I couldnt find an N low profile wireless card but I did change out one of the X300 ATI video cards to an X1050 256mb card so I could have dual monitors. I used to build computers since the days of Altairs but now the thrill is behind me and now the thrill is in finding the best deal per feature.
Garth
In Illinois....Our Governors Make Our License Plates
In Illinois....You're Innocent Until Elected Governor
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It would seem to me that some industrious product development type person would see that there is a fanatical market for weather-related computer equipment (us). It would also seem to me that LaCrosse, Oregon Scientific, Davis, etc., would make a deal with one of these tiny computer makers and incorporate their weather console into the computer so that you'd have a computer/weather console/software/data uploader all in the same package.
I'd give $200 for something like that, as long as it comes with a modem.
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Like I posted elsewhere, I have your dream setup for about $275 incl. modem and webcams with extender in the form of my Asus eeePC.
What would be REALLY cool is if Davis offered a Bluetooth relay to their console. Look ma - no wires! :)
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If you're willing to go the off-lease (refurbished) route, you can get an entire system for the cost of an XP license: Off-lease HP desktops at TigerDirect.com (http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/search.asp?keywords=HP+XP+off-lease+desktop&searchbtn.x=17&searchbtn.y=12). If the URL deosn't work for you, go to TigerDirect.com (http://www.tigerdirect.com/) and search on "HP XP off-lease desktop".
Roak
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If you're willing to go the off-lease (refurbished) route, you can get an entire system for the cost of an XP license: Off-lease HP desktops at TigerDirect.com (http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/search.asp?keywords=HP+XP+off-lease+desktop&searchbtn.x=17&searchbtn.y=12). If the URL deosn't work for you, go to TigerDirect.com (http://www.tigerdirect.com/) and search on "HP XP off-lease desktop".
Roak
Also if you want to go the refurbished route (they also have new stuff) give this site a try get on the mailing list they got nice deals everyday. I've bought from them had good luck..
http://www.geeks.com/ (http://www.geeks.com/)
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Will Windows Mobile (PDAs & Mobile phones) work with a mini-itx? It doesn't require much file space.
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Well, Intel has come out with the board I've been waiting for... The Intel D945GSEJT (http://www.intel.com/products/desktop/motherboards/D945GSEJT/D945GSEJT-overview.htm) is a low-power, slim (less than 1" tall), fanless Atom-based motherboard that maintains a price of less than $120! (http://www.mini-box.com/Intel-D945GSEJT-Mini-ITX-Motherboard) Unexpectedly, the power controller is on-board so all you need is a wall-wart that supplies 12V DC and you're good to go!
So you take the D945GSEJT, add a SODIMM, an SSD (to keep the power and heat down), an inexpensive enclosure (http://www.mini-box.com/M350-universal-mini-itx-enclosure), a cheap wall-wart (http://www.mini-box.com/24w-12v-2A-AC-DC-Power-Adapter) and you have about a 15 watt computer! Add a PCI riser card (http://www.mini-box.com/I-O-shield-and-riser-card-for-D945GSEJT) and a little more power (http://www.mini-box.com/60w-12v-5A-AC-DC-Power-Adapter) (if necessary) and and you can plug in one PCI card (depending on how much heat the PCI card generates, you may have to add a fan at this point as well -- the board does have fan support).
Unlike its predecessors, this board does not have a serial port on the back, but it does have two COM port headers, so you can add a serial port if your weather station requires one. If your weather station is USB based, you’ve got three USB ports on the back, which works out perfectly for a mouse, keyboard and your weather station. Utilizing the USB headers on-board allows up to total of seven USB ports.
Now to find the time to replace my existing D945GCLF (http://www.intel.com/products/desktop/motherboards/D945GCLF/D945GCLF-overview.htm) with this board to stop the fan whine that’s currently in the living room... :-(
Roak
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The only problem for the average user is this: By the time you add the power adaptor, operating system, maybe a small folding screen and keyboard, it's probably going to cost as much or more than the little Acer netbook you've probably seen me raving about with the Atom processor. Only drawback to the Acer is the USB to serial adaptor, but only for aesthetic reasons. If it weren't for that thing poking out so far from the side of the netbook, I would be able to hide the entire thing behind my Davis display console. I do understand the pleasure derived from the do-it-yourself route though, so I'm not knocking it. The satisfaction can be so much more. But my hobby is weather, not computer building, so rather than satisfaction, I'd probably just be frustrated! ;)
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The only problem for the average user is this...
Agreed, for the average user/application it'd be on the expensive side. But as was discussed in this note sometime back, if you're looking for an ultra-low power consumption setup such that you could actually leave a machine in the field for a longer period of time to gather data with greater resolution than available via the data logger, you have to pay more for less [power consumption]. This new Intel board introduces a lower price-point for a fanless, low-power board than previosuly available.
Standing this up as a headless, keyboardless SSD-based PC would you allow you to operate this off some deep-cycle batteries and a solar panel for quite some time!
Roak
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Here are some option for the USB sticking out to far.
http://www.amazon.com/s/?ie=UTF8&keywords=right+angle+usb+adapter&tag=googhydr-20&index=aps&hvadid=3760020715&ref=pd_sl_15wk8cne26_b (http://www.amazon.com/s/?ie=UTF8&keywords=right+angle+usb+adapter&tag=googhydr-20&index=aps&hvadid=3760020715&ref=pd_sl_15wk8cne26_b)
The only problem for the average user is this: By the time you add the power adaptor, operating system, maybe a small folding screen and keyboard, it's probably going to cost as much or more than the little Acer netbook you've probably seen me raving about with the Atom processor. Only drawback to the Acer is the USB to serial adaptor, but only for aesthetic reasons. If it weren't for that thing poking out so far from the side of the netbook, I would be able to hide the entire thing behind my Davis display console. I do understand the pleasure derived from the do-it-yourself route though, so I'm not knocking it. The satisfaction can be so much more. But my hobby is weather, not computer building, so rather than satisfaction, I'd probably just be frustrated! ;)
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Check this out. I am thinking of heading that direction but only if it will handle 2 drives....1 SSD for O/S and 1 HD for data.
http://www.tweaktown.com/reviews/2792/asrock_ion_330_bd_nettop_affordable_overclockable_and_1080p_hd/index.html (http://www.tweaktown.com/reviews/2792/asrock_ion_330_bd_nettop_affordable_overclockable_and_1080p_hd/index.html)
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Rather costly methinks.
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This is just launched and price is expected to drop.
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No serial port either.