Author Topic: E field Boards  (Read 5980 times)

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Offline Cutty Sark Sailor

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E field Boards
« on: May 03, 2014, 12:06:42 PM »
E field kits now available :grin:
About $80 US which includes shipping...
http://www.blitzortung.org/Webpages/index.php?lang=en&page=2
Mike
« Last Edit: May 03, 2014, 12:09:06 PM by Cutty Sark Sailor »
 


Offline Dr Obbins

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Re: E field Boards
« Reply #1 on: May 03, 2014, 12:57:12 PM »
As one of those people who is "some assembly required" challenged - if there is someone willing to assemble one, send a PM.

Offline miraculon

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Re: E field Boards
« Reply #2 on: May 03, 2014, 02:43:06 PM »
Sent a note to Egon, expressing interest. We'll see how it goes...

Greg


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Offline W3DRM

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Re: E field Boards
« Reply #3 on: May 04, 2014, 12:27:29 AM »
Since the new kit does not appear to have inputs for the loops or ferrite h-antenna leads on the new Amp 13 Version 1 and e-field pre-amp 14 Version 1 boards, does the output of the new amp connect to the second input RJ45 connector on the controller board? If so, doesn't that indicate that we would now need to shielded Cat-5 cables?

Also, is the current power supply we are using going to be enough to handle the new power requirements?

Just wondering out loud here...
« Last Edit: May 04, 2014, 12:30:01 AM by W3DRM »
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Offline Cutty Sark Sailor

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Re: E field Boards
« Reply #4 on: May 04, 2014, 12:51:35 AM »
Since the new kit does not appear to have inputs for the loops or ferrite h-antenna leads on the new Amp 13 Version 1 and e-field pre-amp 14 Version 1 boards, does the output of the new amp connect to the second input RJ45 connector on the controller board? If so, doesn't that indicate that we would now need to shielded Cat-5 cables?
The Antenna is simply a vertical straight wire, connected to the preamp inside a fabricated weatherproof enclosure. Amplifier 13 is a dedicated specially engineered amplifier for E signal processing only.
The antenna/preamp connects with high quality shielded, Coaxial Cable to the amplifier F connector, and yes you'll need shielded, grounded Cat5/Cat6, from the 13 board to the Red Controller with the current distance limit of 30m to the 2nd available RJ45 connector on the controller. The E field will have three channels.[
Quote
Also, is the current power supply we are using going to be enough to handle the new power requirements?

Just wondering out loud here...
The power is sent through the controller to the new amp, as currently, and then down the coax to the preamp. Supposedly the extra current needed is minimal. The amp has a more sophisticated regulation circuit than the H field amp, and the preamp draws just tiny current.

The preamp isn't really a 'preamp' ... it's more for impedance matching for the antenna to the amplifier. This is an very sensitive system, with the potential for extremely long range detection. The amplifier is designed to actually hold the potential maximum gain down, with more emphasis on filtering.

It is designed to work in partnership the current H field Red system.
Hoping my kit will be here last of next week, and I'll know more...

Mike
« Last Edit: May 04, 2014, 07:57:47 AM by Cutty Sark Sailor »
 


Offline corwyyn

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Re: E field Boards
« Reply #5 on: May 04, 2014, 05:49:13 AM »
Looks interesting, I'll be curious to see how yours turns out Mike :D
Kevin
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Offline Cutty Sark Sailor

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Re: E field Boards
« Reply #6 on: May 04, 2014, 06:36:16 AM »
Looks interesting, I'll be curious to see how yours turns out Mike :D
It will be interesting, especially in my environment.
 


Offline DaleReid

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Re: E field Boards
« Reply #7 on: May 04, 2014, 07:42:35 AM »
Mike,
If your 'environment' doesn't like the antenna, I'll take it!  :roll:

You mentioned that the distance from the amp to the controller is 30 feet shielded.

With the H-field, I'm running from the preamp to the controller through 100' shielded and do well.  I thought the documentation indicated at 30 METERS was acceptable for that board. 

Does this one have different requirements or did you mean up to 30 meters?

Just curious as I hope to get one and am in the process of moving a few trees and getting my final antenna location pinned down.

Dale
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Offline Cutty Sark Sailor

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Re: E field Boards
« Reply #8 on: May 04, 2014, 07:57:04 AM »
Mike,
If your 'environment' doesn't like the antenna, I'll take it!  :roll:

You mentioned that the distance from the amp to the controller is 30 feet shielded.

Does this one have different requirements or did you mean up to 30 meters?

Dale
:oops: Yes. Documentation states 30m.

Mine's on 50' of shielded CAT6.  (I've fixed the above error)  Thanks... good catch!
Need coffee... ... ...
Mike
« Last Edit: May 04, 2014, 08:01:33 AM by Cutty Sark Sailor »
 


Offline schwab

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Re: E field Boards
« Reply #9 on: May 04, 2014, 08:37:09 AM »
 #-o
Two questions:

1) Will the new E-Field Antenna PCB 14 function with the legacy "Green" Amplifier and Controller PCB 6 Boards?

2) Since the new E-Field Antenna needs to be outside to avoid interference must it be grounded to avoid a direct lightning strike frying everything downstream?

Offline DaleReid

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Re: E field Boards
« Reply #10 on: May 04, 2014, 08:38:50 AM »
I'm not very smart.

But, I can be educated.

I tend to be CDO, that's sort of like Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder, but with the letters in the right order....

I've live long enough to have made so many mistakes by making decisions about stuff that I didn't think would matter, but turned out it did.  So now I ask if something doesn't seem right.  I'm so old, I even as a man I stop and ask directions now, hoping to make it to my destination with no time to waste driving around the same streets again and again.
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Offline DaleReid

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Re: E field Boards
« Reply #11 on: May 04, 2014, 08:54:12 AM »
Grounding of the pre-amp board 14, version 1, as it is being called on the What's New page, has a terminal explicitly for a ground.  However the drawing of the board and antenna wire in a plastic protective tube (I assume PVC or Sched 40) only shows the 75 ohm coax coming out of it, no direct ground drawn in, so it is hard to know for sure.  I would assume (and we all know where that gets us, that if this thing is so sensitive to interference as they say it is, the ground would be mandatory.  However, it isn't grounding to protect it from the zap that will help protect the goodies indoors, I'd guess.  I have had a strike to my 80 foot tower that melted through some aluminum clad coax (of course at the most inaccessible spot near the top), but the preamp connected to that coax inside is still working just fine.  Go figure.

I am thinking of using an old CB whip, you know those 108 inch long things that were in the old police car movies, with the spring on the bottom, and placing it on a 4x4 post out in my woods a ways, since it says you can go up to a 100 meters through excellent quality coax back to the preamp board.  That should allow me to get way out away from my pesky annoying noise sources.  I wouldn't put the whole thing in a tube, just protect the little board with an appropriate water tight box, and run the lead from the antenna base spring into it.  After all the beta board he showed in the picture announcing this was just a little wire soldered to a flat piece of copper. 

I'd wager the houses around you would get hit first with lightning before your E-field antenna would  It never hurts to make a few coils of the coax about a foot in diameter to make a little bit of an impedance bump before going into the house or shed.  But as someone said with a billion volts jumping across three or four miles of air carrying large currents, it is hard to imagine that we can keep Zeus from coming into the house if he wants to.

Think of the radio towers getting hit all the time during a storm and the station stays on the air.  I don't know if I'd want to be in the transmitter shack when that happens, but our local TV station has a 2000' tower that the base of is just feet away from the transmitters and a guy is in there a lot, during storms and all.  More important is a good ground to drain away any build up and minimize 'attraction' as a point to get with the bolt.  Finally, if you look at a lot of the older car antennas and the two-way radio antennas, they all had a little ball on top (that's why when you tuned them you trimmed the bottom, you couldn't replace the ball) which was reportedly to dissipate the static build up and minimize noise.

Just some thoughts.
Dale
(I plan on putting down a ground right at the base of this antenna, although many radio guys say an earth ground isn't an earth ground without multiple radials, etc.  Better than nothing.)

I saw a big difference in my noise level when I attached a ground to my RED controller.

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Offline Cutty Sark Sailor

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Re: E field Boards
« Reply #12 on: May 04, 2014, 09:14:30 AM »
#-o
Two questions:

1) Will the new E-Field Antenna PCB 14 function with the legacy "Green" Amplifier and Controller PCB 6 Boards?
No, Red system only
Quote
2) Since the new E-Field Antenna needs to be outside to avoid interference must it be grounded to avoid a direct lightning strike frying everything downstream?
[/i]
I've no info on that and nothing's been said. Both new boards use a rail splitter so the processing circuitry operates with a 'virtual' ground, That 'ground' on the antenna input connects to the common system ground. I would suggest that connecting a 'second' ground from there to earth, or elsewhere, would lead to ground loops and perhaps induce extra noise, while not necessarily providing any extra 'insurance'.  Good question,... been wondering about it myself.

However, I intend to build mine as illustrated and go from there. and there's no mention or indication of a ground connection to the preamp, although the terminal is available. Designers want these E fields to be totally consistent, and each station to be as symmetrical as possible. The antennas need to be in the air, above roofs, etc... not close to the ground. A metal beer can tab or bottle cap for an antenna will collect the E-field, but it should be up in the air, somewhere away from noise sources. If we get too far away from standardization the network might not be as effective down the road when attempts to process stroke type, polarity etc are programmed.
First version of the E field documentation is in the newly released System handbook,  http://www.blitzortung.org/Documents/TOA_Blitzortung_RED.pdf?t=1399208857
in section 4.2.2
 


Offline DaleReid

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Re: E field Boards
« Reply #13 on: May 04, 2014, 12:59:28 PM »
Good points about the standardization, which is alluded to in some of the earlier documentation and warnings about fiddling with the boards and such.

Again, my comment was about the explicit ground on the board that the antenna attaches to.  My question was why put it there if it wasn't supposed to be used?

I guess start with the basics and expand, although it says in the official doc that they don't suggest winding your own ferrites, and that they should be shielded, and see what has happened.

If there is too much sense antenna that also could be a problem, so I agree that starting with the suggested stuff would be wise. 

I know that the Boltek antenna likes to be high in the air and can easily do so here, too.  Looking forward to the next shipment and when we can officially order. 
Dale
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Offline Cutty Sark Sailor

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Re: E field Boards
« Reply #14 on: May 04, 2014, 01:15:32 PM »
Again, my comment was about the explicit ground on the board that the antenna attaches to.  My question was why put it there if it wasn't supposed to be used?Dale
I think one reason might be they already had the 2 terminal blocks in stock from previous versions, and 2 solder pins provide for more physical stability than a single pin.   BTW, the recommendation for minimum height above ground will likely be 4 meters or so, if possible, and an antenna wire length of about 15" or so.
You can order anytime, just as you did originally on the "Cover Your Area" page...

Just received 100' of triple shielded RG6 cable I plan to start with... (What's with USPS Sunday delivery when they're wanting to stop Saturday delivery??? That was a surprise.) http://www.amazon.com/dp/B003FW0X6Q/ref=pe_385040_30332190_TE_M3T1_ST1_dp_1
 


Offline W3DRM

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Re: E field Boards
« Reply #15 on: May 04, 2014, 05:57:10 PM »
I've just sent an email inquiry off to Blitzortung via the link on their webpage. Hopefully, they will give me a price, info and availability for the new Amp 13 kit.

Guess I'll be running a set of two cat-6 cables for both the H and E antennas. Now, I know why I've been hanging on to my old 1950's CB antenna. It's been literally from coast to coast and Hawaii over the past 50+ years. Now I can tell my wife, "see, I knew someday I would use that old thing...". Just can't seem to throw anything away that might of use someday.  :lol:
Don - W3DRM - Emmett, Idaho --- Blitzortung ID: 808 --- FlightRadar24 ID: F-KBOI7
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Offline Cutty Sark Sailor

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Re: E field Boards
« Reply #16 on: May 04, 2014, 06:15:02 PM »
I've just sent an email inquiry off to Blitzortung via the link on their webpage. Hopefully, they will give me a price, info and availability for the new Amp 13 kit.

Guess I'll be running a set of two cat-6 cables for both the H and E antennas. Now, I know why I've been hanging on to my old 1950's CB antenna. It's been literally from coast to coast and Hawaii over the past 50+ years. Now I can tell my wife, "see, I knew someday I would use that old thing...". Just can't seem to throw anything away that might of use someday.  :lol:
Don, it should be about $80.13 including shipping.  They have all the parts. Forget  the CB antenna. All you want is piece of 10 or 12 gauge wire, probably a maximum of 18" long... although I plan to start with a meter and see what happens... dikes come in handy for excessive sensitivity adjustment. Remember, this system is hyper-sensitive, and is almost more filter than amplifier. If you'll look at the parts list you'll see 1% resistors, and the caps are mostly 5%, and weird values. One reason the cost is slightly higher than you might expect.
Yes absolutely shielded CAT 5 or 6 from amp to controller, and high quality double/triple/quad shielded coax, 50 or 75 ohm from preamp to amp, although I believe 75 ohm is preferred... it really doesn't matter.
 


Offline W3DRM

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Re: E field Boards
« Reply #17 on: May 04, 2014, 06:44:56 PM »
I've just sent an email inquiry off to Blitzortung via the link on their webpage. Hopefully, they will give me a price, info and availability for the new Amp 13 kit.

Guess I'll be running a set of two cat-6 cables for both the H and E antennas. Now, I know why I've been hanging on to my old 1950's CB antenna. It's been literally from coast to coast and Hawaii over the past 50+ years. Now I can tell my wife, "see, I knew someday I would use that old thing...". Just can't seem to throw anything away that might of use someday.  :lol:
Don, it should be about $80.13 including shipping.  They have all the parts. Forget  the CB antenna. All you want is piece of 10 or 12 gauge wire, probably a maximum of 18" long... although I plan to start with a meter and see what happens... dikes come in handy for excessive sensitivity adjustment. Remember, this system is hyper-sensitive, and is almost more filter than amplifier. If you'll look at the parts list you'll see 1% resistors, and the caps are mostly 5%, and weird values. One reason the cost is slightly higher than you might expect.
Yes absolutely shielded CAT 5 or 6 from amp to controller, and high quality double/triple/quad shielded coax, 50 or 75 ohm from preamp to amp, although I believe 75 ohm is preferred... it really doesn't matter.

Thanks Mike,

As soon as I get a reply from the BO group, I'll place my order. I'll also get some more shielded cat-6 cables (should have ordered more than one last time...  ](*,)) along with some quad shielded RG-6. I have plenty of double shielded RG-6 but I don't think it is very good. The foam center insulation is very soft so I suspect it won't be sufficient for this use. It was some end of spool freebie stuff from the DirecTV guys when they ran some cabling for our new satellite dish.
Don - W3DRM - Emmett, Idaho --- Blitzortung ID: 808 --- FlightRadar24 ID: F-KBOI7
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StartWatch, VirtualVP, VPLive, Win10 Pro
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Offline Cutty Sark Sailor

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Re: E field Boards
« Reply #18 on: May 04, 2014, 07:59:11 PM »
I've just sent an email inquiry off to Blitzortung via the link on their webpage. Hopefully, they will give me a price, info and availability for the new Amp 13 kit.

Guess I'll be running a set of two cat-6 cables for both the H and E antennas. Now, I know why I've been hanging on to my old 1950's CB antenna. It's been literally from coast to coast and Hawaii over the past 50+ years. Now I can tell my wife, "see, I knew someday I would use that old thing...". Just can't seem to throw anything away that might of use someday.  :lol:
Don, it should be about $80.13 including shipping.  They have all the parts. Forget  the CB antenna. All you want is piece of 10 or 12 gauge wire, probably a maximum of 18" long... although I plan to start with a meter and see what happens... dikes come in handy for excessive sensitivity adjustment. Remember, this system is hyper-sensitive, and is almost more filter than amplifier. If you'll look at the parts list you'll see 1% resistors, and the caps are mostly 5%, and weird values. One reason the cost is slightly higher than you might expect.
Yes absolutely shielded CAT 5 or 6 from amp to controller, and high quality double/triple/quad shielded coax, 50 or 75 ohm from preamp to amp, although I believe 75 ohm is preferred... it really doesn't matter.

Thanks Mike,

As soon as I get a reply from the BO group, I'll place my order. I'll also get some more shielded cat-6 cables (should have ordered more than one last time...  ](*,)) along with some quad shielded RG-6. I have plenty of double shielded RG-6 but I don't think it is very good. The foam center insulation is very soft so I suspect it won't be sufficient for this use. It was some end of spool freebie stuff from the DirecTV guys when they ran some cabling for our new satellite dish.
It would probably work ok... if it works from dish to amp, and is outside rated, and hasn't been crushed or crimped.
 


Offline Cutty Sark Sailor

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Re: E field Boards
« Reply #19 on: May 05, 2014, 08:11:34 AM »
#-o
Two questions:

2) Since the new E-Field Antenna needs to be outside to avoid interference must it be grounded to avoid a direct lightning strike frying everything downstream?
[/i]
Current (no pun intended) advice is:
Don't add another independent ground to the system itself.  The system ground should already be there, passing from preamp through shielded cables all the way through to the controller, which should carry the 'earth ground'. If you're outside on a hilltop, way up in the air on a steel mast perhaps and extreme hard ground on the mast., with the probe and preamp NOT at the top of the mast... Cross fingers, as we always need to do when it comes to lightning strikes.
Mike
« Last Edit: May 05, 2014, 03:43:19 PM by Cutty Sark Sailor »
 


Offline DaleReid

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Re: E field Boards
« Reply #20 on: May 05, 2014, 09:18:03 AM »
Mike,
And what type of whiskey bottle will be the radome for your probe?

As an aside, is there an 'order form' that one can fill out, or just send a message to Egon or info@B... to get in the queue to be contacted when a kit becomes available?

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Offline DaveF

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Re: E field Boards
« Reply #21 on: May 05, 2014, 12:55:07 PM »
I just sent Egon an email asking for the cost - there were two options
then paid him by paypay  =D>
It was all very easy.

Dave
« Last Edit: May 05, 2014, 12:57:40 PM by DaveF »

Offline DaleReid

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Re: E field Boards
« Reply #22 on: May 05, 2014, 03:53:42 PM »
Hmm, I sent an email the day it was shown as available and still haven't heard back.

I'm wondering if you emailed early, or mine got lost?

Hate to seem to pestering....
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Offline carseman

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Re: E field Boards
« Reply #23 on: May 05, 2014, 04:16:25 PM »
I sent my email 2 days ago and got a reply email from Egon this evening. I am now just waiting for the confirmation of shipping costs.

Chris

Offline JonathanW

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Re: E field Boards
« Reply #24 on: May 05, 2014, 04:48:01 PM »
I would definitely re-send - I received an email reply within 12 hours (yesterday).

The website also asks that you re-send requests if you don't receive a reply within 24 hours.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2014, 05:10:04 PM by n0ym »

 

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