Topic: Interested but....

[Silversword]

Hi All,

Have not seen too much activity on progress on the kits that are being assembled.

I am still interested with this project but there are a few/lots of questions before I start on this.

1. Would it work for me out here in the middle of isolated part of the Pacific?
2. My home is under a metal roof, so what effect would the range for the antenna be like. Do I need to locate it outside? If so, what is the longest distance between the antenna and amplifier be to the controller be?
3. Same thing for the GPS.  How far can I go with the GPS feed to the controller?
4. Does the system require 24/7 to a computer? Or is it stand alone to the Internet?

These are just some of my key questions before I will consider joining this network.  Might be more as I think of any.

Thank you for any recommendations that will help me decide to purchase this kit.

Regards,

--Stan Y.
   Maui, Hawaii

[fotogw]

Hey Stan,

I have a couple of answers.

The controller and the amp can be connected over a CAT5 or 6 shielded cable up to 30 meters.
GPS antenna has a 2,5 meter cable, but extension cables are available.
Computer is not needed. RED-system works connects itself over the internet to the Blitzortung-servers, all settings can be made using the on-board LCD. Computer can be used for (remote) adjusting.

Gerhard
Vaassen, the Netherlands

[Cutty Sark Sailor]

Go Stan!... remember there'll need to be 4 receiving systems for detection, even though you would see the signal... the US West Coast stations might help some, since many of us routinely see 4000-4500km + .
The metal roof should have little or no effect on the signals since we are looking at the magnetic plane of the discharge, assuming you're several feet below it... but you may need to place the GPS antenna out from under it.
When I fired up my red in July, there was only one other red stateside, Don F up in Illinois, and about 14 green stations, including 3 or so in Columbia and the Caribbean that had held the growing US network together for a few years, all by their lonesome. Now there are 30 stations of both types, and things are quite interesting when the weather is active... during this slow season, I suppose there's no "anticipative pressure" and "excitement" to complete a build... but just wait till spring here in the US... the irons will be hot and the forums will be burning again...
It always takes one gutsy Pioneer to start things, one willing to sit back and let others follow.

And keep in mind that all those world-wide green station pioneers, and those of us following, have done a lot of the hard trial-and-error background work that'll help with those weird issues that will crop up.

And as Gerhard said, that neat little Blitzortung will talk 24/7 all on it's lonesome.. just connect to your router.

Cheers!
Mike...

[W3DRM]

Hi All,

Have not seen too much activity on progress on the kits that are being assembled.

I am still interested with this project but there are a few/lots of questions before I start on this.

1. Would it work for me out here in the middle of isolated part of the Pacific?

As Mike (Cutty Sark Sailor) mentioned the range on these systems seems to be pretty amazing so you very well may pick up strikes from the west coast mainland. However, if you don't try, you'll never know until either you or someone else builds a system in the islands.

2. My home is under a metal roof, so what effect would the range for the antenna be like. Do I need to locate it outside? If so, what is the longest distance between the antenna and amplifier be to the controller be?

The amplifier board needs to be as close to the antenna as possible. The Controller board can be as far as 30 meters.

3. Same thing for the GPS.  How far can I go with the GPS feed to the controller?

4. Does the system require 24/7 to a computer? Or is it stand alone to the Internet?

These are just some of my key questions before I will consider joining this network.  Might be more as I think of any.

Thank you for any recommendations that will help me decide to purchase this kit.

Regards,

--Stan Y.
   Maui, Hawaii

Now, I don't know what kind of submarine communications transmissions exist in Hawaii nowadays but I can tell you that back in the 70's the high power VLF transmitters on Oahu raised havoc on low-band Amateur radio. I believe some of the conversations on the Blitzortung members-only forum discusses interference of the Blitzortung systems due to the low frequency being used for lightning detection.

As I mentioned above, you'll never really know the answer to your questions unless you take the leap and build your own system. If it doesn't work for you in Hawaii, I'll bet there will be folks somewhere in the world who would be willing to buy a ready-made Blitzortung system. I often see inquiries from around the world about that.

[Cutty Sark Sailor]

Now, I don't know what kind of submarine communications transmissions exist in Hawaii nowadays but I can tell you that back in the 70's the high power VLF transmitters on Oahu raised havoc on low-band Amateur radio. I believe some of the conversations on the Blitzortung members-only forum discusses interference of the Blitzortung systems due to the low frequency being used for lightning detection.

Yes, NATO sub communications apparently... I think at around 23khz or so.  I'll also have similar interference at times, but have yet to detect any subs in Elkhorn Creek here.  Also a 44khz more or less from some factory stuff over the hill, at times. And some street lights, nearby plasma tvs, and an Acer computer at 22khz... we learn to live with it.  
Not to mention the robot lawn mowers, electronic pet fences, bug zappers, engine ignition... light dimmers...
Heck, that's part of the fun  

As I mentioned above, you'll never really know the answer to your questions unless you take the leap and build your own system. If it doesn't work for you in Hawaii, I'll bet there will be folks somewhere in the world who would be willing to buy a ready-made Blitzortung system. I often see inquiries from around the world about that.

Yes.. I think we'd have at least a dozen more in the NA network if we had time to build kits for others.

But truth is, Don needs you to build one so he can see if his NV station can range to Hawaii.  

[jmcmurry]

Yes.. I think we'd have at least a dozen more in the NA network if we had time to build kits for others.

Make that a baker's dozen. 

- Jim

[Maumelle Weather]

Hi Stan,

I love the Blitzortung detector. My total cost for everything, including making the antenna, etc was around $400. The antenna I built is in a trash can (radome) in my backyard about 50 feet from where I'm typing this. I used STP Cat 5 for the cable between the controller and amplifier. The amp is in the trash can.

Once I had placed my order with Egon (I ordered the complete kit without the ferrite antennas. Cost was around $170-175 USD), I had my kit within 8 days, and there was a Sunday in there, too. Pretty quick.

Costs:

2 BUD boxes off of Amazon.com about $25 each, give or take.
Roughneck trash can from Lowe's $15
1 - 4 x 8 sheet of 3/4 foam insulation board from Lowe's $15 or so.
Spool of 26 gauge enameled copper wire (1300 feet on spool) from Amazon, about $18
Roll of Scotch Aluminum Tape from Amazon.com about $4
Various other things (soldering iron, solder, high power jeweler's visor, etc) $60 or so

As for doing the interface, once up and running, you can access it with your favorite mobile device (I do it all of the time with both of my Apple products with no issues). Just type in the ip address of the controller from your router into your favorite browser.

The maximum distance I have detected a flash/stroke is 4,900 km away from me. It was out in the middle of the Atlantic well east of Bermuda, and I am in Central Arkansas. I regularly detect strokes off of the west coast of Columbia, South America, Bermuda, Saint Thomas Island in the Carribean, etc. Pretty incredible.

Hope that helps,

John

[Cutty Sark Sailor]

Hi Stan,

I love the Blitzortung detector.
John

Yeah, so much you put it in a trash can... and won't let it in the house...

Yes.. I think we'd have at least a dozen more in the NA network if we had time to build kits for others.

Make that a baker's dozen. 

- Jim

See what I mean?
Seriously, John describes it in a nutshell. Although most of us don't put it in the trash after completion...
Mike

[Silversword]

Hi All,

Thank you for all the inputs, suggestions and encouragements.

For John, a couple of questions:

1. What are the item numbers for the Bud boxes from Amazon?  Some times they do not ship some items to Hawaii or costs an arm and a leg for shipping.
2. What is or again the item numbers for your Roughneck Trash Can from Lowes? We do have a Lowes and Home Depot here on Maui. Surprising??
3. What is the Version 2 of your flat panel antenna system.

Okay 3 questions so far...

I think that we still have that VLF system in operation on the island of Oahu. Hope that it does not interfere with this system should I decide to put one together.

Probably more questions to come before decision time comes.

Thanks again for all proddings and inputs.

Regards,

--Stan Y.
  Maui, Hawaii
 

[miraculon]

Here is a link to one of my postings on my RED system buildup. This particular post was for the Bud boxes that I used:

http://www.wxforum.net/index.php?topic=19628.msg190794#msg190794

There is a version of this box available without the flanges. I used this particular one for my "green" original controller that is wall mounted, so I got the one with the mounting flanges. I just reordered the same one for "RED". The square box is the one I used for the antenna, the rectangular one is for the controller.

See Don's post right below the linked post for the boxes he used.

Greg

[Maumelle Weather]

Hi Stan,

Since Greg got the BUD boxes for you, here is the wire and other stuff I got from Amazon.com. By the way, do you have an Amazon Prime account? It is essentially a membership that upgrades most shipping to 2nd Day here in the States and they do not charge for most shipping. Price $80 a year. My wife and I do a bunch of shopping there, so it easily pays for itself.

Wire:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000IJXXXO/ref=oh_details_o03_s00_i01?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Aluminum Tape:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000HBOYZO/ref=oh_details_o03_s00_i02?ie=UTF8&psc=1

GPS Antenna:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B005RUPU6W/ref=oh_details_o04_s00_i01?ie=UTF8&psc=1


Hopefully you'll be able to open those links. On the trashcan, it was a Roughneck that is a royal to navy blue in color. I'd give you the model, but the tag is long gone off of the side.

Here is the link to Gerry's page on the Version 2 flat panel antenna.

http://www.lrsatx.com/flat_panel_version2_.htm

I built my antenna pretty like what he shows, except I didn't taper my antenna size like he did. I ended up making both of my panels 17" wide by 24" tall.

I used a 12 watt soldering gun with a fine tip. I also used some small diameter solder, too.

Edit: You will also need some shielded cable for the connections between the antenna and the amplifier. You should be able to use some of the STP Cat 5 wire for this, I think, right Greg?

John

[miraculon]

Edit: You will also need some shielded cable for the connections between the antenna and the amplifier. You should be able to use some of the STP Cat 5 wire for this, I think, right Greg?

I agree. STP CAT5 is a must. The amplifier gets its ground via the shield.

Since STP is relatively hard to find, here is a recommendation: http://cables4sure.com/index.php

Greg

[W3DRM]

...snip...
But truth is, Don needs you to build one so he can see if his NV station can range to Hawaii. 

Cute idea Mike BUT, I still haven't been able to get my RED system running with both channels yet. My 'B' Channel is dead. Between being way too busy to work on it much since the final assembly, both my O-Scope and the one I borrowed are inoperable. Am now trying to find another scope to trace the signal loss with. Hopefully, I'll get this beast running correctly in another week or two although have family in town this week so no progress until Monday of next week at the earliest.

Sigh, so much to do and so little free time to work what on I want to. I thought retirement would give me so much free time that I'd be bored. It really hasn't worked out that way.

Oh one last comment - we keep throwing around terms like STP Cat-5. I'm not sure that everyone knows what STP means. It is Shielded Twisted Pair cable. An absolute must for the Blitzortung wiring. Without it you will pick up a lot of stray 60Hz stray noise. Good grounding is also a must on these systems.

[Silversword]

Hi All,

Again thank you for all the inputs.

Dan, I knew what SPT was for wiring as I have done a lot of network wiring when I was working, but some folks may think about the additive for cars, LOL. If I put the amplifier with the antenna, would I need to have the CAT 5/6 cable shielded to the controller and the controller to the router???

If I do decide to take on this project, I would be on the fringe to the west coast systems.  4,000 to 4,500 KM would be about 2.480 to 2,790 miles providing the west coast systems are using higher gain antennas such as the flat panel system or the bigger ball...

John, I don't frequent Amazon that much to warrant an Amazon Prime account yet...

Greg,  thanks for the links for the boxes.  Hope there is a weather resistant one for the amplifier, if I decide to put it where the antenna resides, outside some where...

Still in the question area... But getting close to a decision.

--Stan Y.
  Maui, Hawaii

[miraculon]

The connection between the amp and the controller isn't Ethernet, it is for the analog signals and the back-channel UART control of the antenna amp micro. The shielding is needed to provide a ground for this circuit.

I decided to run STP (Shielded Twisted Pair ) for the Ethernet connector for the controller to the router (actually a switch in my case), since my noise sniffers sensed a lot of EMI radiating from the original UTP (Unshielded Twisted Pair) CAT5. So I used it in both places.

On the Bud boxes, there is a gasket for weatherproofing. I didn't use it, but it was included.

Greg

[Cutty Sark Sailor]

I use shielded Cat 6 from amp to controller, and controller to router... carry that cold water ground through if router carries ground from network. My system controller also grounds directly to to the F connector on modem. I use 300mm ferrites I wound and routinely get 4000km+ signals... depends on where/when I have competing EMI signals.
Isn't an STP Cat 5 a fuel efficient bulldozer, and a Cat 6 a bigger version???

Cheers!

Mike

[MrB]

Just for info, I currently have my Amp connected to the Red controller via a 10M length of standard CAT5 UTP cable.
This was only intended as a temporary cable until I could find a local source for an STP cable, but that proved difficult.
The amp has been connected this way now for 44 days and I have had absolutely ZERO issues with it.

I'm currently using 150mm ferrites and routinely get 4000+km strikes. Most distant strike to date is 5,682km.
My gain can be wound up to 32*16*40 without any issues, but I find I get the same effictivity in our network(Oceania) with the gain set to 16*8*40.

Edit: Stan,
Regarding distance to other stations, I thought I should add that until recently the nearest 4th participant to me was over 5000km away and my station was still able to confirm strikes. Around 50 - 100 a day, obviously only in the area around midway between stations.
Nearest 4th participant now is ~3000km away and I now get rates up to ~1000 hour.

[miraculon]

Just for info, I currently have my Amp connected to the Red controller via a 10M length of standard CAT5 UTP cable.
This was only intended as a temporary cable until I could find a local source for an STP cable, but that proved difficult.
The amp has been connected this way now for 44 days and I have had absolutely ZERO issues with it.

I'm currently using 150mm ferrites and routinely get 4000+km strikes. Most distant strike to date is 5,682km.
My gain can be wound up to 32*16*40 without any issues, but I find I get the same effictivity in our network(Oceania) with the gain set to 16*8*40.

Edit: Stan,
Regarding distance to other stations, I thought I should add that until recently the nearest 4th participant to me was over 5000km away and my station was still able to confirm strikes. Around 50 - 100 a day, obviously only in the area around midway between stations.
Nearest 4th participant now is ~3000km away and I now get rates up to ~1000 hour.

Wow, that is great that you can run that high of gain. You must be in a very quiet electrical environment. Sounds like everything is going well for you "down under". What is your station number?

Greg

[W3DRM]

If he is using the same userid (MrB) on the Blitzortung forum, he is station # 844 located in Rockingham, West Australia.

[MrB]

Hi Greg,
W3DRM is correct, it is station 844. (I use the same name on all the Blitzortung related forums.)

I'm in suburbia so it's a long way from being a noise-free environment, my own TV causes significant interference.
I noticed though that only slight adjustments in the antenna's positioning and orientation had a significant effect on the pickup of noise.
At first I wandered around with the antenna's within the limits of reach of the 10M cat5 cable until I found the 'quietest' spot, then at that quiet spot I rotated the orientation of the antenna's(while maintaining 90deg to each other) until channel A and B had roughly equal noise signal.
Even rotating by only a few degrees has a significant effect on noise pickup and false triggering.

The interference from my TV (SMPS or possibly the CCFL inverter) limits the gain to 16*10, but it's only on for a couple of hours a day and then the higher 32*16 is possible with occasional false triggering, but as already mentioned, I have not observed any benefit from running such high gain in the network so I keep it at 16*8

Have attached a strike waveform at 32*10.
I now seem to be picking up some 50Hz mains noise and at 32*16 it is causing false triggering. This is new.

Edit: Actually, seeing the long period wave(attached) I had wrongly assumed it was mains noise, but now I look at the numbers it seems to be approx. 800uS period so ~1.25kHz. No idea where this would be coming from. There is a Naval Base only a few kilometers away, so it could be ULF communications, but not likely with such low amplitude.
Easy enough to adjust the trigger threshold to compensate, but this would be pointless anyway.

[miraculon]

MrB:

This give me an idea.

I noticed though that only slight adjustments in the antenna's positioning and orientation had a significant effect on the pickup of noise.

I might try making a swivel bracket out of wood so I can rotate the antenna/amp assembly. (for my old Green 6.8USB station, which is my 'problem child')

I have placed a steel water pipe with cap over the ferrite antenna to prove that the noise is referred to the antenna (not wiring, or the amp board). It also shows that the noise is directional since I can eliminate it by magnetically shielding one of the antennas.

My loop antennas on RED are easier to re-align, but I usually just turn down the gain during extreme noise. I have some constant noise sources that antenna aiming would help with, but sometimes I get some really egregious noise that starts and stops suddenly.

Greg