Author Topic: Solar radiation measurement  (Read 3701 times)

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Offline Jáchym

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Solar radiation measurement
« on: December 19, 2015, 12:16:25 PM »
OK, I appologize in advance as it might be stupid question but...

I personally don't have a weather station which would measure solar radiation so I cannot answer this myself.

A friend of mine was suggesting to me that you can actually determine the duration of sunlight based on the measurements from stations such as Davis VP2 or any other station that measures solar radiation. According to his view, in order to calculate the duration of sun shine you should simply look at the intervals at which the solar radiation measurements are not 0.

However, my understanding of how these stations work was that they actually measure the actual "amount" of light rather than sun shine so it only tells you when it is day/night, but it is not possible to determine the sun shine duration (to be precise, it is of course possible, but using a different device and not the solar radiation sensors that come as part of many weather stations).

As I said, I don't have a station measuring this myself so I would like to hear your opinions and if it is the case that I am correct, then if you know of any option how to measure the actual duration of sunlight in non-professional environment and ideally for some reasonable price.

Offline Bushman

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Re: Solar radiation measurement
« Reply #1 on: December 19, 2015, 12:22:26 PM »
What EXACTLY is he trying to measure?  Clear sky?  Direct sunlight - as opposed to diffused like you would get with thin cloud or fog?  http://www.pveducation.org/pvcdrom/properties-of-sunlight/measurement-of-solar-radiation
Need low cost IP monitoring?  http://wirelesstag.net/wta.aspx?link=NisJxz6FhUa4V67/cwCRWA or PM me for 50% off Wirelesstags!!

Offline broadstairs

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Re: Solar radiation measurement
« Reply #2 on: December 19, 2015, 12:27:32 PM »
Well measuring sunshine hours, which I believe is what your fried means, is not straight forward. Weather Display does it reasonably well. The Davis stations have a global solar radiation sensor which means that readings can go from 0watts/m˛ to over 800w/m˛ (possibly up to 1000w/m˛ because of cloud reflections etc) and that covers all lighting conditions from night through to bright sunshine. In order to calculate whether or not it is sunny you need to calculate the expected max solar radiation for your time of day, latitude/longitude,  an allowance for the effect of the atmosphere (attenuation) and compare that with the Davis reading and calculate a % value, then set a threshold above which it is considered sunny (usually around 80%), you then count the minutes for where it is above threshold which gives sunshine duration.

Often quoted is a value of I believe 100w/m˛ for sunny conditions but that only applies to a solar sensor which measures direct radiation and is one which tracks the sun across the sky.

So it is not trivial as you can imagine.

Stuart
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Offline Jáchym

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Re: Solar radiation measurement
« Reply #3 on: December 19, 2015, 12:31:32 PM »
Thanks for clarification, basically this is exactly what I thought... that either you would have to have a device which detects direct sun shine reaching it or you have to estimate it from the expected maximum.

Either way, the point is - it is not as easy as he thinks - i.e. the solar radiation sensors do not show 0 when it is overcast.

thanks

Offline mcrossley

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Re: Solar radiation measurement
« Reply #4 on: December 19, 2015, 12:32:18 PM »
What Stuart said, plus some of the weather programs (I know Cumulus and WD do it) will calculate the current theoretical value for you, and apply your desired percentage threshold to provide an indication of 'sunshine'. Is it as good as a dedicated sunshine sensor?  No, but I have found it reasonably accurate, good enough to give a fair indication of the sunshine hours.
Mark

Offline Bushman

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Re: Solar radiation measurement
« Reply #5 on: December 19, 2015, 12:41:06 PM »
Someone here wrote a little program to capture cloud vs. clear pixels on a sky cam.  Another option...
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Offline Jáchym

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Re: Solar radiation measurement
« Reply #6 on: December 19, 2015, 12:50:50 PM »
Sure, thank you all guys for replies and actually proving my understanding of it.

The bottom line is - it is possible to make a relatively accurate estimate, but the important thing is - the sensors themselves do not measure it and it is still just an estimate.

The question then remains what options are there of buying some sort of a device that would actually be able to detect direct sun shine and thus provide not an estimate but measurement.

Offline mcrossley

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Re: Solar radiation measurement
« Reply #7 on: December 19, 2015, 01:06:22 PM »
For me, the current best amateur kit is the Blake Larsen detector - http://www.sunrecorder.net/
You can fiddle around with temp sensors in jars etc, but the BL detects directly.

Instromet also make a sunshine detector/recorder too. http://www.instromet.co.uk/SunshineSensor.html
Mark

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Offline weatherc

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Re: Solar radiation measurement
« Reply #9 on: December 19, 2015, 02:01:29 PM »
Quote
(possibly up to 1000w/m˛ because of cloud reflections etc)

Just a correction, 1200+ w/m2 during summers here on clear sky.

But..
I would say how any solution works depends lots on the location too.
As mentonied above i get 1200+ w/m2 on clear sky in June but only 60-80 w/m2 in December here at 60N. And again during overcast is the values like 300 w/m2 at summer and 0 w/m2 in December. So it would really need a "max value" to be calculated too before any solarhours can be calculated.

// Henkka

Offline PaulMy

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Re: Solar radiation measurement
« Reply #10 on: December 19, 2015, 03:05:37 PM »
Quote
For me, the current best amateur kit is the Blake Larsen detector - http://www.sunrecorder.net/
You can fiddle around with temp sensors in jars etc, but the BL detects directly.
and if it goes the developers' way it won't be "amateur" but it is a long haul!
 
Looks like some parts of Europe had great sunshine http://www.komokaweather.com/weather/sunrecorder/sunrecorder_display_v2_today.html
 
but not much bright sunshine so far here today http://www.komokaweather.com/weather/sunrecorder/sunrecorder_display_v1.html:
Quote
LAT  42.9539
LON  81.4352
TZ  -5
DST True
SRS 07:52:22 16:53:11
TOT 00:12:05 00:07:09
NRC 09:20:05 09:27:14
SUN 13:54:39 13:54:45
SUN 13:54:50 13:55:08
SUN 13:55:36 13:55:45
SUN 13:56:42 13:57:35
SUN 13:58:27 13:58:28
SUN 13:58:39 13:59:30
SUN 13:59:56 14:02:12
SUN 14:02:41 14:04:04
SUN 14:04:46 14:04:49
SUN 14:08:19 14:08:34
SUN 14:08:38 14:08:40
SUN 14:12:25 14:13:08
SUN 14:20:02 14:20:08
SUN 14:27:34 14:27:45
SUN 14:37:37 14:40:37
SUN 14:44:42 14:44:58
SUN 14:46:02 14:46:04
SUN 14:53:45 14:54:43
SUN 14:55:01 14:55:06
SUN 14:55:11 14:55:11
SUN 14:55:14 14:55:14
SUN 14:55:18 14:55:23
NRC 14:56:13 16:53:11

Paul

Offline Jáchym

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Re: Solar radiation measurement
« Reply #11 on: December 19, 2015, 05:17:06 PM »
http://www.metcheck.co.uk/acatalog/Sunshine_Recorder.html

This is exactly the link I found. So there probably is no cheaper alternative that might not be as accurate, but do the job. The question then is whether the 1300 price tag is worth it or if it the estimates are reasonably accurate... I guess he will have to decide himself, for me it does not really matter because my station does not measure SR, so I cant even make the estimates.

It is however something to consider to implement into my template, I will look on the internet at some papers about how exactly these numbers could be estimated (I guess it should depend on your latitude and time of the year).

Offline broadstairs

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Re: Solar radiation measurement
« Reply #12 on: December 19, 2015, 05:24:39 PM »
I have a max solar value calculator on my website at http://www.stella-maris.org.uk/maxsolar1.phtml but it is only for testing purposes so people can see what they should be getting in something like Weather Display. Please note the comments about its use.

Stuart
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Offline davidmc36

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Re: Solar radiation measurement
« Reply #13 on: September 25, 2021, 02:40:50 PM »
For me, the current best amateur kit is the Blake Larsen detector - http://www.sunrecorder.net/
You can fiddle around with temp sensors in jars etc, but the BL detects directly.

Instromet also make a sunshine detector/recorder too. http://www.instromet.co.uk/SunshineSensor.html

I mounted the BL SR today.

http://www.sunrecorder.net/googlemap/googlemap.php?mode=showstat&type=Today&serial=10112

Offline PaulMy

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Re: Solar radiation measurement
« Reply #14 on: September 25, 2021, 02:47:16 PM »
 =D>

You're included  Komoka Sunrecorder (komokaweather.com)

Enjoy,
Paul
« Last Edit: September 25, 2021, 03:39:45 PM by PaulMy »

Offline PaulMy

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Re: Solar radiation measurement
« Reply #15 on: September 26, 2021, 11:46:15 AM »
Hi David,
For the 12 Months Sun Normal it looks like you are still on the default monthly sun hours of 1,449.0.  You can edit that in SR program and use the normals from Environment Canada for their nearest to you - i.e. OttawaCanadian Climate Normals 1981-2010 Station Data - Climate - Environment and Climate Change Canada (weather.gc.ca)

Click Normals Data, scroll down to and select Bright Sunshine, and that will give you the hours per month (year total of 2,083.7)

Good to see it recording again.
Have you been able to compare the B-L to your station(s) sensor or CMX calculation?


Enjoy,
Paul

Offline davidmc36

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Re: Solar radiation measurement
« Reply #16 on: September 26, 2021, 11:54:51 AM »
Thanks for the tip. Will check that out. I don't have any other sun sensor to compare to.

I may end up getting it a bit higher next summer. Another six or eight feet would clear up a bit of tree line at sunrise.

Offline davidmc36

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Re: Solar radiation measurement
« Reply #17 on: October 03, 2021, 02:40:16 PM »
I got the normals keyed in.

Having some trouble with it crashing all the time now.

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Offline PaulMy

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Re: Solar radiation measurement
« Reply #18 on: October 03, 2021, 02:59:10 PM »
Hi,
Yes I had noticed that you have added the sunshine normals.  Will be at the end of the month before you will be able to see how you compare.


I am not familiar with that logged status.  Is that part of the current SR program?


Enjoy,
Paul

Offline davidmc36

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Re: Solar radiation measurement
« Reply #19 on: October 03, 2021, 04:43:36 PM »
I was looking around the Sunrecorder folder and in System folder I saw this file. I don't know what it all really means.

Could be related to the crappy computer its hooked to. I should try another to find out.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2021, 04:46:30 PM by davidmc36 »

Offline PaulMy

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Re: Solar radiation measurement
« Reply #20 on: October 03, 2021, 04:55:31 PM »
H,
Can't help with that.  My latest program is October 2018 and nothing like that in my file structure.  Maybe a question for Ole.


Enjoy,
Paul

Offline davidmc36

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Re: Solar radiation measurement
« Reply #21 on: October 05, 2021, 07:55:19 AM »
Funny I have  not touched the computer for a couple days and it runs fine. I'm thinking  something with the super crappy video card or other fault with budget computer because I was on there checking charts and doing settings when it kept balking.

Offline Bashy

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Re: Solar radiation measurement
« Reply #22 on: October 05, 2021, 11:57:43 PM »
Jáchym, you say you dont have a station that records solar, what about a station that can have extra temp sensors? If so and if you use a program like weather display, you could make your own solar sensor with the Solar in a Jar method, it works very well and i used it for a good few years and even experimented with the idea, such as a drilled out lightbulb, whilst very sensitive to sunlight, ie recorded every single subtle change, i changed to a laboratory flask shaped like a bulb and a temp probe and placed it upside down on my mast, i cant remember why i ditched the lightbulb idea now. Good thing is, it can also be doubled as a night cloud too.Ok, I'm rambling on and you may not even be able to use extra temp sensors...
Kind regards
Bashy

Offline DaleReid

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Re: Solar radiation measurement
« Reply #23 on: October 06, 2021, 08:10:39 AM »
I have been interested in measuring sunlight too, and have several pyranometers to try to do so.

They basically measure incident light, and will start to show watts/meter/meter as soon as it gets 'light out' even if it is cloudy.

I know that various algorithms predict the amount of sunlight and intensity for a time of day.  I think that Brian Hamilton uses the predicted max and you can choose if the measured value exceeds say 75% that it counts as 'sunny' rather than cloudy or whatever. 

I've been using that setup for a couple years.  since pyranometers measure light rather than sunlight, any sky illumination will generate a value, so I assume that one can just choose what level you want to exceed and integrate the measured value above that level for quantity of light.

I'm interested in the comments that allude to measuring cloudiness, even at night, to get even more information about sunlight.  For solar panels, it would be interesting to know how the site evaluation meters work, or if they just measure the amount of both cloudy and non-cloudy solar radiation?

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Offline broadstairs

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Re: Solar radiation measurement
« Reply #24 on: October 06, 2021, 08:27:58 AM »
Most hobby solar sensors will show 0w/m2 at night so to measure clouds at night you need a different solution, cetainly that's true for my old VP1 and my current GW1003 station. I have seen homemade solutions on forums in the past.

Stuart
Ecowitt GW1003 with ultrasonic wind gauge, lightning sensor and PM2.5 sensor with Personal Weather Tablet as a console.

 

anything