Topic: Double-checking before ordering - my BO RED build (now with E-field!)

[W3DRM]

Here's some excellent wire:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0082CUNVE/ref=oh_details_o04_s00_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
It's what I rolled mine with...

Mike

That's the same wire I used for my V2 loop antenna. It was easy to work with.

A question for Mike and DonF - The Blitzortung manual talks about ferrite antennas and turn spacing...

The spacing between the turns has also a significant effect on the ”Q”.
The best values for the ”Q” are obtained when the coil turns are
spaced one wire diameter apart, with a winding covering the entire rod.

Have either of you wound your ferrites using this "one wire diameter" spacing on your ferrite antennas?

[Cutty Sark Sailor]

Here's some excellent wire:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0082CUNVE/ref=oh_details_o04_s00_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
It's what I rolled mine with...

Mike

That's the same wire I used for my V2 loop antenna. It was easy to work with.

A question for Mike and DonF - The Blitzortung manual talks about ferrite antennas and turn spacing...

The spacing between the turns has also a significant effect on the ”Q”.
The best values for the ”Q” are obtained when the coil turns are
spaced one wire diameter apart, with a winding covering the entire rod.

Have either of you wound your ferrites using this "one wire diameter" spacing on your ferrite antennas?

Nah... just wound 'em tight.... works fine.  I think was about 730 turns or something at the 300mm length that I rolled.... it's posted somewhere....???
Mike

[dfroula]

I have a report that Richo wrote last year on the performance of home-made antennas wound with a variety of ferrite core configurations, wire gauge, and turn spacings. He includes graphs of frequency response that show any unwanted self-resonance within the pass band of the amp. After some correspondence with Richo, he recommended close-winding 26 AWG wire directly on a 200x10mm core. I had the 50mm slugs available from Nebraska Surplus, so I built a 250x7.5mm core by gluing 5 shorter rods together, figuring it was roughly equivalent.

Mike went one better (literally) by constructing a 300x7.5mm core from 6 of the slugs. Mike's construction differed from mine in that he used one layer of shrink-wrap tubing to hold the rods together, wound directly onto the shrink, and then added an additional layer of shrink-wrap over the entire assembly. I think there is some improvement in the Q by not winding directly onto the ferrite.

I just finished up a set of antennas similar in construction to Mike's tonight for the Cave City, Ky station I am building. Wow, those things have gain! With all of the lighting to the south, I needed to back the gain down to 10x8 to keep out of interference. Impressive. I may have to rebuild mine! LOL. Nice improvement.

Regards,

Don

[dfroula]

There's a pretty exhaustive discussion of ferrite rod antennas here:

http://www.bentongue.com/xtalset/29MxQFL/29MxQFL.html

There's much discussion of increasing the "Q", but I believe this is only relevant for tuned antennas. We want untuned operation for lightning detection. Resonances in the frequencies of the pass band of the amp increase the sensitivity at the resonant point, but the waveform looks more sinusoidal, eliminating the nice sharp peaks that show the details of the strike. This wave form makes it impossible for the server to accurately time the detections.

I believe the terminating/damping resistors at the input of the Red amp are there to kill the "Q" anyway.

I did note very little inductance difference between winding directly on the ferrite as opposed to winding over a layer of shrink-tubing, although the tubing does offer some additional inductance (according to the above article). The mechanical and ease of assembly using the shrink-wrap to assemble the core makes using it very worthwhile.

Here's the link to Richo's write-up. His 20cm antenna is closest to what we have been constructing.

http://forum.blitzortung.org/attachment.php?aid=589



Don

[Cutty Sark Sailor]

Don came up with a very effective, inexpensive, ferrite innovation, which is simply not that critical. The 300mm shafts I rolled drastically outperformed the 120mm I purchased with the kit, and actually appear less vulnerable to my high EMI environment. Noise level typically 40-60mv with either antenna type, but the superior signal Don's design produced, for whatever reason, appears to have a better S/N ratio at similar gain settings. Shielding didn't make that much difference to fool with.
Get a handful of those rods. stick 'em together with a layer of wrap to make a core, start about a tenth of the core length from one end, wind like hell, stop about same distance from  other end. Wind the ending back across your core with 5 or 6 turns, another layer of wrap over the top, and get on with the rest of the fun!   
Red ain't that critical! Heck, mine worked fine, and it had been about 50 years since I'd tried to make a ferrite AM antenna...
Don's concept made it easy.

Mike
 

[corwyyn]

Woo-Hoo!  Got my package from Germany today (OK yesterday but I didn't have a chance to check the mail until today).  Now to dig out the DVM, print out Don's checklist and get everything ready to build!  Fun times ahead

[Silversword]

Woo-Hoo!  Got my package from Germany today (OK yesterday but I didn't have a chance to check the mail until today).  Now to dig out the DVM, print out Don's checklist and get everything ready to build!  Fun times ahead

Kevin,

I got mine sorted out.  At least I think I have.  There was a slight difference in the capacitor (104) count with Don's check list. At least it did for me.  As far as the resistors,  I used my DVM also just because I am kinda stuck in the old school with reading only 4 bands, where as, most of the resistors have 5 bands. Got kinda confusing for me.  I found this site to kinda bring me up to date with the 5 band colors.  http://www.hobby-hour.com/electronics/resistor_color_code.php maybe it will help you also.

I have not started to solder as of yet.  I had to take care of other things around my place.  It has been raining a lot this month.  24 days of rain this month and it is still raining today.  Grass grows pretty fast around here.

I hope to get mine going soon.  Good luck with your build.

Regards,

--Stan Y.
   KH6HHG
   Maui, Hawaii

[robo]

I got mine sorted out.  At least I think I have.  There was a slight difference in the capacitor (104) count with Don's check list.

Stan,

please take notice of the revision number of the PCBs. Ensure that you always use the most recent documentation from blitzortung.org that fits the revision mumber of your PCBs.

Regards,
Robo

[corwyyn]

Stan,

please take notice of the revision number of the PCBs. Ensure that you always use the most recent documentation from blitzortung.org that fits the revision mumber of your PCBs.

Regards,
Robo

Robo, thanks for the heads-up.  Don F. sent me a PM about this and I think he also helped Stan get it sorted out.  I've got the latest pdf downloaded from the BO site and hope to get going on mine next weekend, as with Stan other things prevented me from getting going but it will get there eventually.

Stan if you want to ship any of that rain this way we sure could use it; NWS has us at 68 with a 10% chance of showers Wednesday (10% chance over a 10% portion of the greater metro area  ) and that's it right now.

[Silversword]

Thanks Robo for the info.  I do have the latest PDF file also.  Both Don's have given me good advices. Now waiting for the heat shrink tubing to come for the antenna construction and time to do the soldering.

Kevin, well too bad there is no pipe line to move some of our water over there.  I rained 24 days in March.  It is raining again today, now over 0.75 inches in the past 7 hours.

Well, looking at the percentage the other way.  There is 90% chance of NO rain for your area today.

Regards,

--Stan Y.
  KH6HHG
  Maui, Hawaii

[corwyyn]

OK well a week turned into a couple of months (April Fools!) but I finally got a chance to get a work table set up and got started sorting all the bits that came in the box from Egon:


Almost done, had a few items that I had to go back thru the parts lists to figure out where they went:


It felt weird wearing the wrist strap at home and every time I disconnected to get up and do something I kept waiting for the screech of the monitor box to tell me I had left it unplugged (I hear that all the time at work).  On the plus side i think my work ESD straps will fit on this cord and they are elastic instead of secured with velcro so that should make things a bit more comfortable.  Now where did I pack away that Weller soldering station when I moved into this house???

[corwyyn]

OK so one more question (at least) before I start my build.  I currently have a powered USB hub on my computer desk, it's a Belkin 4-port and the power supply that connects to it shows an output of 2.6A.  Should this be enough for at least the testing phase where I am going to have the unit indoors?

Eventually I plan to run at least the amp and antennas outside if needed for increased sensitivity as I have no idea how well the signals will come thru the chicken-wire mesh that supports the stucco exterior of my home and plan to get a suitable 5v supply out there when/if that time comes.

[Knickohr]

Kevin,

read the technical specification for powered USB-devices. They say, no more than 500mA per port are supported by the hub. All other is "out of specification". But 500mA is enough for powering the system RED.

Thomas

[miraculon]

Kevin,

read the technical specification for powered USB-devices. They say, no more than 500mA per port are supported by the hub. All other is "out of specification". But 500mA is enough for powering the system RED.

Thomas

True for USB 2.0, but this has been increased to 2A in USB3.1.

Greg

[miraculon]

OK so one more question (at least) before I start my build.  I currently have a powered USB hub on my computer desk, it's a Belkin 4-port and the power supply that connects to it shows an output of 2.6A.  Should this be enough for at least the testing phase where I am going to have the unit indoors?

That 2.6A has to be split to all the ports on the hub. Each port (if it is USB2.0) provides 500mA. See Knickohr's post.

Greg H.

[Cutty Sark Sailor]

Confused...  you guys talking about running just the controller or just the amp through a 500ma USB output? Just for checkout?  Or using the 2.6amp supply for itself. That'll probably work if it has good regulation. "Charger" supplies are a different story... I think we've found out that they are really hit and miss.
Now, the Controller draws about 400ma by itself, amps draw about 40+ ma each, with an E field preamp at about 40 ma.
So 500ma supply just won't hack good operation for the system. If you're trying to supply anything less than an amp and a half, you're liable to wind up frustrated, especially if you plan on using the LCD at all, and run 2 amps with E and H field both... I found out on my system, with all my other H field noise, that nothing other than a 3 amp regulated supply would really drive this thing consistently. If you see on your status page the input voltage a 5.0Volts, and go to signals, and sample the 5 volt , you'll see something like 4.6-4.75V.  If that sample is below about 4.6 it may explain your issues. Some of those little chargers etc will already drop to 4.7 or less, and when you sample 5v you'll see voltage all over the place from 4.4-4.8, depending. That ain't cool. Trust me. Been there. Sucks.
Get a good supply. Regardless of what you hear about "any usb wall wart will work".  That simply is not the case. And 500 ma will not run this system efficiently.

Oh, you might do it on a 900ma USB3 port... maybe. If nothing else connected. 

[92merc]

I've been running this brick on my system now since the get go.  Input voltage hasn't wavered from 4.90 to 4.92.  I'd like to find a scope to stick on it to see just how clean it is.  But I'm currently running my controller and E field without issue.  Expecting to add more no problem considering it as 5A total output.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00DVH62J2/ref=oh_details_o05_s00_i01?ie=UTF8&psc=1

"5 ports designed to charge iPad (2 x 2.1A), iPhone (1A), Samsung Tab (1.3A), and Android devices (1A). Total combined output of 5A (Ports are specially designed for the labeled device but also charge many other devices at full speed)."

[W3DRM]

I've been running this brick on my system now since the get go.  Input voltage hasn't wavered from 4.90 to 4.92.  I'd like to find a scope to stick on it to see just how clean it is.  But I'm currently running my controller and E field without issue.  Expecting to add more no problem considering it as 5A total output.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00DVH62J2/ref=oh_details_o05_s00_i01?ie=UTF8&psc=1

"5 ports designed to charge iPad (2 x 2.1A), iPhone (1A), Samsung Tab (1.3A), and Android devices (1A). Total combined output of 5A (Ports are specially designed for the labeled device but also charge many other devices at full speed)."

Are you using only one of the 2.1A ports to drive your entire RED system? I am assuming this would include both the H-field and E-field electronics from the same port.

[W3DRM]

Confused...  you guys talking about running just the controller or just the amp through a 500ma USB output? Just for checkout?  Or using the 2.6amp supply for itself. That'll probably work if it has good regulation. "Charger" supplies are a different story... I think we've found out that they are really hit and miss.
Now, the Controller draws about 400ma by itself, amps draw about 40+ ma each, with an E field preamp at about 40 ma.
So 500ma supply just won't hack good operation for the system. If you're trying to supply anything less than an amp and a half, you're liable to wind up frustrated, especially if you plan on using the LCD at all, and run 2 amps with E and H field both... I found out on my system, with all my other H field noise, that nothing other than a 3 amp regulated supply would really drive this thing consistently. If you see on your status page the input voltage a 5.0Volts, and go to signals, and sample the 5 volt , you'll see something like 4.6-4.75V.  If that sample is below about 4.6 it may explain your issues. Some of those little chargers etc will already drop to 4.7 or less, and when you sample 5v you'll see voltage all over the place from 4.4-4.8, depending. That ain't cool. Trust me. Been there. Sucks.
Get a good supply. Regardless of what you hear about "any usb wall wart will work".  That simply is not the case. And 500 ma will not run this system efficiently.

Oh, you might do it on a 900ma USB3 port... maybe. If nothing else connected. 

Looking at my own system, I see 5.03V on the status page. However, looking at the signal sampling for the 5 volt line, I see a pretty constant 4.65 voltage level. I am soon going to be adding my E-Field equipment to the mix in the next week or so and am wondering if I need to consider getting a new 5V power supply? Any suggestions? The power supply (wall-wart) I am using is rated at 1.0A.

[Cutty Sark Sailor]

I've been running this brick on my system now since the get go.  Input voltage hasn't wavered from 4.90 to 4.92.  I'd like to find a scope to stick on it to see just how clean it is.  But I'm currently running my controller and E field without issue.  Expecting to add more no problem considering it as 5A total output.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00DVH62J2/ref=oh_details_o05_s00_i01?ie=UTF8&psc=1

"5 ports designed to charge iPad (2 x 2.1A), iPhone (1A), Samsung Tab (1.3A), and Android devices (1A). Total combined output of 5A (Ports are specially designed for the labeled device but also charge many other devices at full speed)."

heh... but then, that's not your average wall wart, either!  Good 'un...

[Cutty Sark Sailor]

Looking at my own system, I see 5.03V on the status page. However, looking at the signal sampling for the 5 volt line, I see a pretty constant 4.65 voltage level. I am soon going to be adding my E-Field equipment to the mix in the next week or so and am wondering if I need to consider getting a new 5V power supply? Any suggestions? The power supply (wall-wart) I am using is rated at 1.0A.

5.03 and 4.65 is cool. I wouldn't get another unless I started to have problems... 1 Amp should run 'em fine, and that seems to be pretty good regulation. No ripple,other than noise on the sigs page? if level and straight, with noise, but no curves is cool.

[92merc]

Are you using only one of the 2.1A ports to drive your entire RED system? I am assuming this would include both the H-field and E-field electronics from the same port.

I'm using both of the 2.1 A jacks right now.  I could probably drop the amp down to one of the lower amps ports.  I'll probably use the 1.3A for my E field when I finally get it.

[92merc]

Here is a snapshot of my voltage page.

[W3DRM]

Looking at my own system, I see 5.03V on the status page. However, looking at the signal sampling for the 5 volt line, I see a pretty constant 4.65 voltage level. I am soon going to be adding my E-Field equipment to the mix in the next week or so and am wondering if I need to consider getting a new 5V power supply? Any suggestions? The power supply (wall-wart) I am using is rated at 1.0A.

5.03 and 4.65 is cool. I wouldn't get another unless I started to have problems... 1 Amp should run 'em fine, and that seems to be pretty good regulation. No ripple,other than noise on the sigs page? if level and straight, with noise, but no curves is cool.

The power supply was made so it outputs a wee-bit over 5.00V to compensate for any loss in the small wiring. I'll see if I can find the link where I bought it from. I think it was on either Amazon or Ebay. The output is very clean with very little ripple.

[corwyyn]

Well I found one of these at my local Frys:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16875980893
Cost a bit more than the one 92merc linked but I was able to walk out the door with it   After that I think I'm ready to go, now I just need to break out the soldering iron and get some lead fumes in my face...