Topic: Snow measurements

[miraculon]

Well, maybe I am jumping the gun, but I thought that I would start watching the videos and reading the training material on snow measurements for CoCoRaHS. I already have the nice aluminum snow stick from last year, but I ordered an extra outside cylinder to swap out while it is snowing at observation time.

I thought that the "snow swatter" was just a gag gift kind of thing on Weather Your Way. From the training material, I see that it has a real purpose in dealing with snow caught on the rim of the gauge. I am sure that a dollar store fly swatter is the same, but is this what people typically use for this situation?

I see that I need to prepare a "snow board", I'll do that in the near future. Seems straightforward enough.

I am going to try to build a "melting chamber" with a small heat pad lining a larger diameter PVC pipe that the gauge will fit into. We'll see how that goes. I might have to stick with the tried-and-true "add warm water" method.

The other question was about using the swatter to hold the snow core from falling out when its upside down. Is this the best method, or would something else work better?

Greg H.

[Cutty Sark Sailor]

Well, maybe I am jumping the gun, but I thought that I would start watching the videos and reading the training material on snow measurements for CoCoRaHS. I already have the nice aluminum snow stick from last year, but I ordered an extra outside cylinder to swap out while it is snowing at observation time.

Yep... definitely valuable... incidentally, be careful removing the outer cyl.. or you'll be stocking and extra mounting bracket, also... 

I thought that the "snow swatter" was just a gag gift kind of thing on Weather Your Way. From the training material, I see that it has a real purpose in dealing with snow caught on the rim of the gauge. I am sure that a dollar store fly swatter is the same, but is this what people typically use for this situation?

Well, I sorta just use my fingers... but no, it's not a gag, especially for areas with intense snowfall.. remember, that's a measurement of what's in the cylinder, not the actual snowfall or depth... below...

I see that I need to prepare a "snow board", I'll do that in the near future. Seems straightforward enough.

Yeah.. Now, you need several, so you can take several measurements.. unless you're lucky like me.. I've got one spot that I've determined over the years shows a very respectable 'average',.. and I tend to use that most of the time... however, I do not recommend that for areas with a lot of snow.

I am going to try to build a "melting chamber" with a small heat pad lining a larger diameter PVC pipe that the gauge will fit into. We'll see how that goes. I might have to stick with the tried-and-true "add warm water" method.

Been there, done that...

Ain't worth the trouble....

The other question was about using the swatter to hold the snow core from falling out when its upside down. Is this the best method, or would something else work better?

Best way I've found is with a piece of thin stiff plastic, like part of a vinyl folder, which is what I use... since I don't have a swatter,...

Mike

[Cutty Sark Sailor]

BTW  never really liked the "add warm water method"... I just set mine in the bathroom on a heat vent, or in the sink with some warm water, go have coffee, then come back later and measure it...

[ValentineWeather]

Funny you brought this up. I ordered a second rain gauge, snow swatter and the 30" measuring stick marked in tenths this morning. 
Just how often should a core sample be taken? Is the core sample all the way down to ground level like in the video? What if theres 30-40" of snow on the ground? I was thinking this may be something I wouldn't be doing much of anyway. I think the average snow cover where I'm at is only a couple inches between storms.
However, I can see if a couple big storms hit in a row where it may be useful should there be a rapid snow melt and the possibility of flooding occurs.

[Cutty Sark Sailor]

Remember you've got two things to keep in mind... "new snowfall" (24 hrs) and " total Snow"  covering the ground.
So, you need some way to make measurement of 'new' snow, so you clean off your board, place it on top of the snowpack, so it records next 24 hrs.
Now, you measure "total snow" to the ground... and its SWE also...
Some folks in high snowfall environments use 4" stove pipe, PVC, etc, to take those 'deep' total snow cores...

Other things to consider... snow cams.  Your local weather service office will love you if you upload stills every 10 sec to 1 minute or so for them to follow...

[SlowModem]

BTW  never really liked the "add warm water method"... I just set mine in the bathroom on a heat vent, or in the sink with some warm water, go have coffee, then come back later and measure it...

Yep!  Me too! 

[ValentineWeather]

I love the cam idea.
So you do a SWE daily when you do the total ground snow level? Or is this something you do only on occasion. I understand the new snow and clearing board, and getting the water measurement. 
But the total ground snow water equivalent was where It wasn't clear. I thought I heard or read this was something only needed occasionally. I can see doing a snow depth measurement daily but the core sample seems excessive. Set me straight on this.

[Cutty Sark Sailor]

I love the cam idea.
So you do a SWE daily when you do the total ground snow level? Or is this something you do only on occasion. I understand the new snow and clearing board, and getting the water measurement. 
But the total ground snow water equivalent was where It wasn't clear. I thought I heard or read this was something only needed occasionally. I can see doing a snow depth measurement daily but the core sample seems excessive. Set me straight on this.

Well, go log in to CCR,  http://www.cocorahs.org/Admin/MyDataEntry/DailyPrecipReport.aspx
and check the report fields... you'll note it asks for totals at observation time...   I'd suggest daily, for any number of reasons, one biggie is you learn something about 'settling' of snowpacks, compared to water content, learn a bit about environment,... etc...

[W3DRM]

I love the cam idea.
So you do a SWE daily when you do the total ground snow level? Or is this something you do only on occasion. I understand the new snow and clearing board, and getting the water measurement. 
But the total ground snow water equivalent was where It wasn't clear. I thought I heard or read this was something only needed occasionally. I can see doing a snow depth measurement daily but the core sample seems excessive. Set me straight on this.

Well, go log in to CCR,  http://www.cocorahs.org/Admin/MyDataEntry/DailyPrecipReport.aspx
and check the report fields... you'll note it asks for totals at observation time...   I'd suggest daily, for any number of reasons, one biggie is you learn something about 'settling' of snowpacks, compared to water content, learn a bit about environment,... etc...

I was just going to mention that one of the things recommended is to take multiple snowfall measurements during a "snow event" because it settles as it piles up and you don't get exact measurements, especially if it is a heavy wet snow. Here in northern Nevada, most of our snow is the light fluffy stuff which does not settle quite as much. Since we have very little in the way of storms anyway, it is rare to have more than one-day of snowfall to contend with. In my 8+ years here I don't think there has been more than one or two storms that required me to clear my snow board so I could read the next days snowfall.

A snowcam is a great idea especially if it is set to stream or take photos on are regular basis.

[kcidwx]

The best way to measure water equivalency of a snow event is to use an antifreeze water mix in the rain gauge of known weight before the storm. Then after the storm, weigh again and calculate water equivalency. Any heat applied just evaporates some of what you are trying to measure. Someone should take the Stratus gauge and set it on a weatherproof scale outside and figure out how to read the weight inside the house and graph that weight on a computer. You would essentially have "live" water equivalency during the storm.

[Cutty Sark Sailor]

The best way to measure water equivalency of a snow event is to use an antifreeze water mix in the rain gauge of known weight before the storm. Then after the storm, weigh again and calculate water equivalency. Any heat applied just evaporates some of what you are trying to measure. Someone should take the Stratus gauge and set it on a weatherproof scale outside and figure out how to read the weight inside the house and graph that weight on a computer. You would essentially have "live" water equivalency during the storm.

Remember CCR is a large group of volunteers from pre-teens to old fools like me. The idea is to keep it simple, if possible, for the whole bunch. The generic measuring instructions are here.  http://www.cocorahs.org/Content.aspx?page=measuresnow 

[ValentineWeather]

I love the cam idea.
So you do a SWE daily when you do the total ground snow level? Or is this something you do only on occasion. I understand the new snow and clearing board, and getting the water measurement. 
But the total ground snow water equivalent was where It wasn't clear. I thought I heard or read this was something only needed occasionally. I can see doing a snow depth measurement daily but the core sample seems excessive. Set me straight on this.

Well, go log in to CCR,  http://www.cocorahs.org/Admin/MyDataEntry/DailyPrecipReport.aspx
and check the report fields... you'll note it asks for totals at observation time...   I'd suggest daily, for any number of reasons, one biggie is you learn something about 'settling' of snowpacks, compared to water content, learn a bit about environment,... etc...

I'll contact CoCoRaHS and find out if they want a daily core sample of SWE of snow pack. One thing I won't have is a large enough area if this is the case if you figure 40-70 ground core samples of undisturbed snow throughout the winter, I really doubt this is really what they want or require regardless if its on the daily log. Most likely what they want and what I was trying to get a clear answer for is maybe after each new snow event do a full snow depth core sample of the SWE along with of course the new snowfall SWE on the snowboard. 

[ValentineWeather]

Measuring the Total Depth of Snow (New and Old) and they call it LWE, video here:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zbDygoJ2D4&list=PLS0EU9SKRY0_liw4Z60q_zodgCz-etYB5&index=5
LWE of Total Depth of Snow (New and Old) is optional typically taken once a week.

[ironton]

I use the weight method for determining water content of new snow and core samples.  It's a lot faster.
http://www.cocorahs.org/media/docs/Training_SnowByWeight.pdf

[miraculon]

Thanks for all the answers and comments. I am reading them with keen interest.

Mike, your heater on the right-hand gauge:



Did you use a blanket wrapped around the inside of a pipe or cylinder? It looks like what I was contemplating (great minds think alike...). I was going to keep mine in the garage and bring the outer cylinder to it. I ordered a 250W blanket on eBay. (hope it works...)

This is what I bought: http://www.industrialreuse.com/efh-sh-5x10-115-electro-flex-heat-pads-marathon-special-products-contact-blocks-ir002119
I know that I needed >18 inches for the circumference of the interior of a 6" PVC pipe, but it will cover most of it. I was planning on putting it near the bottom, so the lower 5" will get the heat. I'll probably just put a simple switch and watch for the gauge turning into a Salvador Dali creation..





Greg H.

[Cutty Sark Sailor]

Greg, that pipe has a thermostatic socket, on at 36 off at 46... connected to a 14' 25w reptile terrarium cable coiled on the inside... works, worked ok down to 10°, but ... trust me... its more trouble than it's worth... looks mean, though.  I'm not even sure I'll put it out this year... it's faster, easier just to pull the bare cylinder, slap on the second one, and bring the first in the house. 

[ValentineWeather]

I use the weight method for determining water content of new snow and core samples.  It's a lot faster.
http://www.cocorahs.org/media/docs/Training_SnowByWeight.pdf

Thats a slick and quick method. With little evaporation involved.

[miraculon]

Greg, that pipe has a thermostatic socket, on at 36 off at 46... connected to a 14' 25w reptile terrarium cable coiled on the inside... works, worked ok down to 10°, but ... trust me... its more trouble than it's worth... looks mean, though.  I'm not even sure I'll put it out this year... it's faster, easier just to pull the bare cylinder, slap on the second one, and bring the first in the house.

But it looks cool and is Complex & Glorious... 

Maybe with 10x the power mine will melt the snow and then the gauge... Maybe I can submit a photo for the 2016 CoCoRaHS calendar of the melt-down.

Greg H.

[miraculon]

Greg, that pipe has a thermostatic socket, on at 36 off at 46... connected to a 14' 25w reptile terrarium cable coiled on the inside... works, worked ok down to 10°, but ... trust me... its more trouble than it's worth... looks mean, though.  I'm not even sure I'll put it out this year... it's faster, easier just to pull the bare cylinder, slap on the second one, and bring the first in the house.

But it looks cool and is Complex & Glorious... 

Maybe with 10x the power mine will melt the snow and then the gauge... Maybe I can submit a photo for the 2016 CoCoRaHS calendar of the melt-down.

Greg H.

I found a 1 gallon Igloo drink thermos and placed the heat pad inside at the bottom. I put a plastic tumbler full of ice cubes in for a test. The infrared thermometer was reporting temperature near 300°F and the pad started melting its way into the inside liner of the Igloo. The tumbler started softening and distorting too. (it was considered a "sacrificial" test piece)

The damage to the Igloo was more or less "contained", and is a little rippled at the top edge of the heat pad. I'll cover it up with silicone RTV (automotive hi-temp with Cu).

I found a JCI control system with sensor, controller and in/out 120VAC cords already installed. Since this was complete, I decided to go this route. It should arrive today, hopefully. It is intended for Kegerators, but with jumpers it can be set for heat and cut-out at setpoint. The Beverage Factory might make these using the A419 controller.

http://www.beveragefactory.com/draftbeer/keg-equipment/thermometers/A419ABG-3C___9161.shtml?CAWELAID=1372130435&CAGPSPN=pla&catargetid=320012430000187888&cadevice=c&gclid=CjwKEAjwkrmhBRD49Mbm_MvruWsSJAAEDt13X_bfF4ZjTxow6G90JZdqinSDWVS9M3rcdrBtQ_A3MxoCzqjw_wcB



At any rate, running "open loop" was a bad idea. I am glad that I didn't test it with the rain gauge outer cylinder. 

Anyone know the max temperature spec for the CoCoRaHS outer cylinder? I would assume 120°F, or so since it could be exposed to temperatures that high in the outdoor "real world". I might need something lower so I don't evaporate the water and get an under count of liquid equivalent. I have plenty of time (I hope) to experiment before the snow flies.



Greg H.

[ValentineWeather]

Finally got the Snow Depth Gauge in. Backyard camera seems to work without doing any adjustment. 

[CNYWeather]

Looks good.

[ValentineWeather]

Thanks, got the idea from Cutty so thought I would give it a try. Next I'll check it tonight and adjust the IR light if needed.

[Cutty Sark Sailor]

  Best thing for lighting it might be what I use when mine are running...
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00EYKD8M4/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o06_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
on a light sensor switch.

Hint  1: Upload a still at some interval, and give the url for the still to your local NWS office... they'll like you for that...  most NWS offices scan 'webcam' images, especially during snow and other weather events, especially fog, ice, snow... . Mine upload at 10 seconds, as well as stream... Hint  2: Give them more board, and stick, less background...

Save a bunch of stills, and make a video
  (big file, browser may time out in playback...)

Mike

[ValentineWeather]

Thanks Mike for the ideas. I'll mount the measuring gauge on the board instead of behind it. Today was my test mode to see what needed to be done.

[ValentineWeather]

Mounted gauge into board, looks much better.  IR light works well. I don't want to dedicate the whole camera to the board because the same camera image is on my front page.