Author Topic: "Global Warming? No, Natural, Predictable Climate Change"  (Read 7515 times)

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Offline Weather Display

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Re: "Global Warming? No, Natural, Predictable Climate Change"
« Reply #75 on: February 24, 2012, 09:23:51 PM »
Quote
but don't demonize carbon energy sources as the primary cause of the changes.

but the global warming people are not saying carbon emissions are the only cause
they take into account all the other causes of climate variability
which you see in the graphs...they go up and down
but its the underriding trend, that even with all other forcing taken into account, is still going up
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Offline arrowspace90

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Re: "Global Warming? No, Natural, Predictable Climate Change"
« Reply #76 on: February 24, 2012, 10:48:30 PM »


Nice bait, Ken. :shock:  The New Scientist isn't peer reviewed, so it's not even as reliable as Wickipedia, which can be edited.  They are known organ grinders for carbon-based climate change. 
[

/quote]\\

Oh please.  We have the Internet at our fingertips.  I suppose NASA isn't peer reviewed either.  For anyone to come on here and say that global warming caused by humans is not a condition supported by science and the overwhelming majority of credible scientists is simply ludicrous.
Anyone can read the data.
If you say that Global Warming is not real, then you are simply standing outside the realm of mainstream science.  Period.

If it is less than profitable or palatable for you to accept the conclusions of SCIENCE, then fine.  If you simply choose to reject science, then fine.
But spare us the posturing in this space that somehow the worries of scientists regarding global warming are the work of renegades.

Offline mackbig

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Re: "Global Warming? No, Natural, Predictable Climate Change"
« Reply #77 on: February 25, 2012, 10:27:15 AM »
I knew this was going to be an interesting thread.  Just like its previous incarnation from 2009
http://www.wxforum.net/index.php?topic=5937.0

I think Ocala summed it up quite nicely in reply #10
http://www.wxforum.net/index.php?topic=14288.msg139192#msg139192

Here we are 66 posts later, no "winner".  Imagine that.  Still got 214 to pass the old thread. Luckily the first ever banned user is not around anymore.

Like any debate/issue, there are extremes on both sides. They cant be swayed in their opinions, so why bother. State your piece if you want, without personal attacks or insults.  Rebut perhaps, but as some have said no reason to beat a dead horse.  I will continue to read the responses and links, laugh at some, think about others.

Politics, gun control, healthcare, right to life/choice, religion, etc..., there will never be a winner or even consensus. I was thinking of a Harry Callahan quote, "Well, opinions are like.... Everybody has one"(you can Google the rest)

Have fun and be civil.

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Offline KeithBC

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Re: "Global Warming? No, Natural, Predictable Climate Change"
« Reply #78 on: February 25, 2012, 11:46:38 AM »
Ordinarily, I would agree with you.  However, this statement...
there will never be a winner or even consensus.
...is in fact taking sides with one side in the argument.  Part of the problem with discussions like these is the manipulation of the truth.  The idea that there is no consensus is one of these untruths.

Offline SoMDWx

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Re: "Global Warming? No, Natural, Predictable Climate Change"
« Reply #79 on: February 25, 2012, 12:05:16 PM »
There is only 1 truth....1 absolute truth... and too many relative truths.... Human nature dictates that the will always be two sides regardless of who's rght or wrong....

Offline W7DRM (old call was W3DRM)

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Re: "Global Warming? No, Natural, Predictable Climate Change"
« Reply #80 on: February 25, 2012, 12:31:21 PM »
Here’s another document (German scientists using thermodynamics) claiming the IPCC are scientific liars and political hustlers.  It’s a 100+ page pdf document.  You don’t need to plow through all of the details – just read to Abstract and the conclusions/summary starting on page 90 (section 4.3.3).


Again, I'm not going to agree or disagree with this article. It's just one more scientific point of view which some in this forum may not like to read or admit exists...

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Offline Weather Display

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Re: "Global Warming? No, Natural, Predictable Climate Change"
« Reply #81 on: February 25, 2012, 01:20:58 PM »
humm
I see he does some backyard school type experiments to test his theories?
i.e a car or glass house
and then try and say thats the same thing as the atmosphere?
now thats a leap
after initialy copying and pasting lots of complex equations to make it all look good

and then he just goes and pulls apart various papers and attacks them in a psuedo scientific way
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Offline Old Tele man

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Re: "Global Warming? No, Natural, Predictable Climate Change"
« Reply #82 on: February 25, 2012, 03:34:29 PM »
...I view this whole subject as "Shakesperean" in nature, ie: "...much ado about nothing..."
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Offline KeithBC

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Re: "Global Warming? No, Natural, Predictable Climate Change"
« Reply #83 on: February 25, 2012, 10:46:20 PM »
Here’s another document (German scientists using thermodynamics) claiming the IPCC are scientific liars and political hustlers.  It’s a 100+ page pdf document.  You don’t need to plow through all of the details – just read to Abstract and the conclusions/summary starting on page 90 (section 4.3.3).
The reason they don't want you to "plow through all the details" is because it is immediately obvious that the guy is talking gibberish.  Of course, if you only read the abstract and the summary, you wouldn't know that; you would assume he is a competent scientist rather than a propaganda hack.

Offline mmorris

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Re: "Global Warming? No, Natural, Predictable Climate Change"
« Reply #84 on: February 26, 2012, 09:05:33 AM »
If you believe in globe warming then the solution is easy. Its call population control, Less people would use less natural and man made resources.  :arrow: Probably need to get the population reduced to 1700s levels.

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Offline xykotik

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Re: "Global Warming? No, Natural, Predictable Climate Change"
« Reply #85 on: February 26, 2012, 10:11:55 AM »
Here’s another document (German scientists using thermodynamics) claiming the IPCC are scientific liars and political hustlers.  It’s a 100+ page pdf document.  You don’t need to plow through all of the details – just read to Abstract and the conclusions/summary starting on page 90 (section 4.3.3).
The reason they don't want you to "plow through all the details" is because it is immediately obvious that the guy is talking gibberish.  Of course, if you only read the abstract and the summary, you wouldn't know that; you would assume he is a competent scientist rather than a propaganda hack.

How about the ones that say "we are scientists, not you, so trust us and don't bother thinking for yourself."  Just as bad as the hacks, and often more dishonest, because a lot of them use their credentials as a shield assuming that most people are lazy and won't challenge them.  They are the reason for a lot of the sketpicism and therefore their own fault if no one trusts them because of that superior attitude.  The boy who cried wolf met his end while screaming about the real wolf that was really devouring him, because he had told so many lies before that no one believed him.  At the same time, it's an old trick to "baffle 'em with BS" when you really don't know what you are talking about, by overwhelming your opponent with too many technical details to consider.  But that doesn't fly these days, with all of the electronic data-access tools at our disposal.  It becomes a lot easier (and necessary) for us to think for ourselves.  If it is important enough to get all heated up about (not a GW pun) than it is incumbent to read and study more than just "I trust the scientists, they are scientists afterall" to settle the argument in your mind.

So, regardless of whether GW is or is not caused by man, and regardless of your personal beliefs one way or the other, try to look at THIS independently and tell me it wouldn't jade your view against ANY truth in the matter, for or against, facts or no facts.  (below is an expansion of my early sarcastic not-so-sarcastic remark, with tongue firmly in cheek)...

Al Gore, we love you!  You were robbed of the election in Florida.  You won an Oscar and a Nobel for your movie about a book about a slideshow about GW that someone asked you to give, so I will believe anything you say and promise to feel guilty about my personal contribution to GW.  I don't care about all of the tree lights at your mansion or your frequent travel in private jets, because you are my messiah, and thank you for providing a way to be absolved of my guilt through purchasing carbon offsets from your companies.  I know those trees would be planted anyway, but if I pay for it out of my guilt rather than the evil timber companies, then the spirit of gaia will bless me through you, her humble servant.

Lord Monckton.  You are not "my" lord.  What's with titles?  A throwback to monarchies and aristocracy?  We have moved way beyond that.  I suppose you think you are special because you wrote an advisory letter to the PM.  What got up your butt that you had to make such a stink about a little documentary?  How much personal energy did you waste getting it banned?  It just infuriates me to the end that you don't have a clue what you are talking about.  You are no scientist.  I read your bio in Wikipedia.  You write sudoku books, for Gore's sake!  What kind of expert does that make you on GW?


Go ahead and hate, if you don't understand the absurdity I am trying to convey, and not the GW debate itself.  Sometimes it is important to understand how people can become polarized one way or another in an argument, sometimes seemingly against common sense or the obvious.  KeithBC even mentioned it can be something as shallow as not wanting to be told not to drive a gas guzzler.


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Offline arrowspace90

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Re: "Global Warming? No, Natural, Predictable Climate Change"
« Reply #86 on: February 26, 2012, 10:32:41 AM »
It's fine to argue that you don't "believe" in GW. 

Just don't claim that "science" is supporting you, because the overwhelming majority of scientists and scientific organizations have let the public know that GW is real and man is causing it.

I have cited NASA, and even Wikipedia, but how about people whose entire professional life is about weather and climate?

The American Meteorological Society is clear in their position on the subject.

http://www.ametsoc.org/policy/2007climatechange.html

Offline KeithBC

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Re: "Global Warming? No, Natural, Predictable Climate Change"
« Reply #87 on: February 26, 2012, 12:51:38 PM »
How about the ones that say "we are scientists, not you, so trust us and don't bother thinking for yourself."  Just as bad as the hacks, and often more dishonest, because a lot of them use their credentials as a shield assuming that most people are lazy and won't challenge them.  They are the reason for a lot of the sketpicism and therefore their own fault if no one trusts them because of that superior attitude.  The boy who cried wolf met his end while screaming about the real wolf that was really devouring him, because he had told so many lies before that no one believed him.  At the same time, it's an old trick to "baffle 'em with BS" when you really don't know what you are talking about, by overwhelming your opponent with too many technical details to consider.  But that doesn't fly these days, with all of the electronic data-access tools at our disposal.  It becomes a lot easier (and necessary) for us to think for ourselves.  If it is important enough to get all heated up about (not a GW pun) than it is incumbent to read and study more than just "I trust the scientists, they are scientists afterall" to settle the argument in your mind.
This is one of the more intelligent comments in this discussion.  However, I think it misses the point.

You say that "baffle 'em with BS" doesn't fly any more, but the truth is, it flies better than ever. 

It is the tragic failure of our education system that has put the general public in the position of not being able to distinguish between science and BS.  You really can overwhelm your opponent with technical details that you don't understand yourself  or with totally illogical arguments, and the average person can't tell the difference.

The argument is not, and has never been, between scientists who say yes and scientists who say no.  The argument is between scientists on the one hand and the fakers and BSers who misrepresent themselves as scientists on the other hand.  In a society with adequate education, there would be no argument.  The BSers would be dismissed as irrelevant .  But that doesn't happen.  The loudest mouth gets the press.

Offline xykotik

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Re: "Global Warming? No, Natural, Predictable Climate Change"
« Reply #88 on: February 26, 2012, 01:22:03 PM »
It's fine to argue that you don't "believe" in GW. 

Just don't claim that "science" is supporting you, because the overwhelming majority of scientists and scientific organizations have let the public know that GW is real and man is causing it.

I have cited NASA, and even Wikipedia, but how about people whose entire professional life is about weather and climate?

The American Meteorological Society is clear in their position on the subject.

http://www.ametsoc.org/policy/2007climatechange.html

Yeah, life would be so much less stressful if I would just put my faith in the experts and not think for myself.  But that ain't me.  I'm not learning anything new that I haven't heard before from any of the links you are feeding, from the arrowspace community or otherwise, so it's not helping me find new ways to convince others, or to help cool the earth before it's too late.  If I want to learn more (that IS me) I'll have to look beyond this equestrian carcass of a thread.  Sorry.


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Offline arrowspace90

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Re: "Global Warming? No, Natural, Predictable Climate Change"
« Reply #89 on: February 27, 2012, 10:45:58 AM »
It's fine to argue that you don't "believe" in GW. 

Just don't claim that "science" is supporting you, because the overwhelming majority of scientists and scientific organizations have let the public know that GW is real and man is causing it.

I have cited NASA, and even Wikipedia, but how about people whose entire professional life is about weather and climate?

The American Meteorological Society is clear in their position on the subject.

http://www.ametsoc.org/policy/2007climatechange.html

Yeah, life would be so much less stressful if I would just put my faith in the experts and not think for myself.  But that ain't me.  I'm not learning anything new that I haven't heard before from any of the links you are feeding, from the arrowspace community or otherwise, so it's not helping me find new ways to convince others, or to help cool the earth before it's too late.  If I want to learn more (that IS me) I'll have to look beyond this equestrian carcass of a thread.  Sorry.

Well, the only thing coming from the arrowspace community will be the data from my own roof station.  I will be interested to see if my own temps and rainfall average up or down, but I don't think many would be convinced by my sample of one.

Offline neondesert

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Re: "Global Warming? No, Natural, Predictable Climate Change"
« Reply #90 on: February 27, 2012, 07:40:24 PM »
Well, the only thing coming from the arrowspace community will be the data from my own roof station.  I will be interested to see if my own temps and rainfall average up or down, but I don't think many would be convinced by my sample of one.

Probably not since there are so many USHCN sites that are much more "accurate".  :roll:

Like this one...


Or this one...



Or these:
http://www.surfacestations.org/odd_sites.htm

Or any one of the gems listed here that have CRN ratings of 4 or higher...
http://www.surfacestations.org/USHCN_stationlist.htm
« Last Edit: February 27, 2012, 07:47:31 PM by neondesert »
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Offline IMADreamer

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Re: "Global Warming? No, Natural, Predictable Climate Change"
« Reply #91 on: February 28, 2012, 01:45:32 AM »
Well, the only thing coming from the arrowspace community will be the data from my own roof station.  I will be interested to see if my own temps and rainfall average up or down, but I don't think many would be convinced by my sample of one.

Probably not since there are so many USHCN sites that are much more "accurate".  :roll:

Like this one...


Or this one...



Or these:
http://www.surfacestations.org/odd_sites.htm

Or any one of the gems listed here that have CRN ratings of 4 or higher...
http://www.surfacestations.org/USHCN_stationlist.htm


I don't care what your position is on AGW, that's funny.  I wonder if he's ever posted on a weather forum "for some reason when I'm burning my trash my temps go up." 
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Offline Old Tele man

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Re: "Global Warming? No, Natural, Predictable Climate Change"
« Reply #92 on: February 28, 2012, 11:08:47 AM »
...hm-m-m, wonder if his humidity meter suddenly reports "soot" for no apparent reason (wink,wink)?
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Offline Weather Display

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Re: "Global Warming? No, Natural, Predictable Climate Change"
« Reply #93 on: February 28, 2012, 11:42:38 AM »
those pictures have been posted before
would be good to see new stuff instead of the same old stuff from the non believers :)
you are not always going to have perfect situations
Watched the Frozen Planet program last night about the effects on global warming on the north and south pole
they have give GPS trackers to the people who live in the artic because there are new cracks in the ice that have never been there before (cracks as in too wide to cross)
and they have used submarine records from under the artic ice...it has thinned a great deal over the last 30 years and alot is now only metres thick
the polar regions are warming 2x faster or more than anywhere else
sea water absorbs heat instead of reflecting it, thats the other key here...so the shrinking of the ice sheets (is happening in the south pole and on greenland) is accelerating
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Offline SoMDWx

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Re: "Global Warming? No, Natural, Predictable Climate Change"
« Reply #94 on: February 28, 2012, 12:35:26 PM »
Everyone belives there are political, hidden agendas here.. with that said, you will believe what you WANT to believe in, right or wrong....

I am seeing it here both sides saying the other guy has no clue what they are talking about nor have a full understanding of the facts.
Very few, if any on this forum, have the complete background and education to make ANY kind of judgements as to what the truth is...
All this is just a pissing contest, no more, no less......

Offline Dr Obbins

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Re: "Global Warming? No, Natural, Predictable Climate Change"
« Reply #95 on: February 28, 2012, 02:44:30 PM »
Everyone belives there are political, hidden agendas here.. with that said, you will believe what you WANT to believe in, right or wrong....

I am seeing it here both sides saying the other guy has no clue what they are talking about nor have a full understanding of the facts.
Very few, if any on this forum, have the complete background and education to make ANY kind of judgements as to what the truth is...
All this is just a pissing contest, no more, no less......
ok, for the sake of dissucsion. I believe that the global climate is warming. I also believe that human activities have contributed to a certain extent. Now with that being said, what do I/we do from here?

Offline KeithBC

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Re: "Global Warming? No, Natural, Predictable Climate Change"
« Reply #96 on: February 28, 2012, 05:20:51 PM »
ok, for the sake of dissucsion. I believe that the global climate is warming. I also believe that human activities have contributed to a certain extent. Now with that being said, what do I/we do from here?
Basically, keep as much fossil fuel as possible in the ground.  We can do that in a number of ways, such as finding alternative sources of energy, and reducing our consumption.  Reduce the rate of deforestation, and replace the forests that we have already consumed.

Offline W7DRM (old call was W3DRM)

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Re: "Global Warming? No, Natural, Predictable Climate Change"
« Reply #97 on: February 28, 2012, 11:48:09 PM »
ok, for the sake of dissucsion. I believe that the global climate is warming. I also believe that human activities have contributed to a certain extent. Now with that being said, what do I/we do from here?
Basically, keep as much fossil fuel as possible in the ground.  We can do that in a number of ways, such as finding alternative sources of energy, and reducing our consumption.  Reduce the rate of deforestation, and replace the forests that we have already consumed.

I couldn't agree with you more that we need to find alternative sources of energy. =D&gt;

HOWEVER, cutting off our usage of a known viable source of energy BEFORE those alternative sources are ready for prime-time, in my estimation, is SUICIDE!!! Forcing the western world to backtrack into a medieval viewpoint of energy usage just isn't going to happen and is totally unrealistic. Regardless of how much the western world reduces its carbon-emmissions, the rest of the world is going to continue blindly moving forward using fossil fuels.

Why do we (the U.S.A.) always have to be the ones who suffer and provide the rest of the world with funds to run their lives and businesses?

Personally, I'm getting tired of the good 'ole U.S.A. having to sacrifice our lifestyle so we can rescue everyone else.

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Offline KeithBC

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Re: "Global Warming? No, Natural, Predictable Climate Change"
« Reply #98 on: February 28, 2012, 11:54:47 PM »
HOWEVER, cutting off our usage of a known viable source of energy BEFORE those alternative sources are ready for prime-time, in my estimation, is SUICIDE!!! Forcing the western world to backtrack into a medieval viewpoint of energy usage just isn't going to happen and is totally unrealistic. Regardless of how much the western world reduces its carbon-emmissions, the rest of the world is going to continue blindly moving forward using fossil fuels.

Why do we (the U.S.A.) always have to be the ones who suffer and provide the rest of the world with funds to run their lives and businesses?

Personally, I'm getting tired of the good 'ole U.S.A. having to sacrifice our lifestyle so we can rescue everyone else.
Oh pu-lease!  Cry me a river!  :roll:  If you want the rest of the world to get off your backs, stop being a nation of whiny crybabies.

Offline xykotik

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Re: "Global Warming? No, Natural, Predictable Climate Change"
« Reply #99 on: February 29, 2012, 08:53:28 AM »
Oh pu-lease!  Cry me a river!  :roll:  If you want the rest of the world to get off your backs, stop being a nation of whiny crybabies.

That's it?  That's the answer?  Deep-pockets = cry-baby?  I never heard that argument before.  The US congress would have ratified Kyoto immediately if it said that.  So, that must also mean that anyone whom the USA is on their backs (Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Lybia, the Palistinians, etc) are just cry-babies?  Thanks for that enlightened rebuttal, eh.

I think that W3DRM's point was that cutting off the engine of productivity by starving it of fuel will have a more immediate and personal impact than mitigating its affect on climate change, and that if alternative fuel sources are being developed, the "developing nations" should be implimenting those as well, rather than exempted, because if it is about the environment and not the economy, the migration of new "development" will flow to the places where it is still cheap to produce (using cheaper fossil fuels) and away from the places being forced to adapt to unproven and expensive "alternatives" before they are ready.  Of course this is going to be met with resistance.  And at a time when the US economy is not at it's peak, the addition of tax dollars leaving for those countries in order to develop the competitive manufacturing resources (that are not restricted from using traditional fuel sources) then there is a bit of resentment.  It's not a river of tears, it's a river of Gross National Product draining away our life energy (as one Canadian philosopher called the personal hours worked to earn wages and pay taxes).

Perhaps the "suicide" analogy can be restated in the context of W3DRM's frustration...

It's like being forced to buy the knife so our successor can slit our throat with it.


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