Topic: "Global Warming? No, Natural, Predictable Climate Change"

[gwwilk]

There is a recent column in Forbes Magazine that references a paper in the Journal of Atmospheric and Solar-Terrestrial Physics.  I found it enlightening so I thought I would share it:  http://www.forbes.com/sites/larrybell/2012/01/10/global-warming-no-natural-predictable-climate-change/.  The article and paper support those who contend that climate change is always underway but that there's no firm evidence that what we're seeing today is primarily a man-made phenomenon.

[IMADreamer]

I find it somewhat hard to believe that people still deny the impact that humans have had on our planet and climate.  I wonder if people ever just open their eyes and observe what's around them. 

[Wayne_R]

Unfortunately, I'm in the view of George Carlin:

The planet has been through a lot worse than us. Been through earthquakes, volcanoes, plate tectonics, continental drift, solar flares, sun spots, magnetic storms, the magnetic reversal of the poles … hundreds of thousands of years of bombardment by comets and asteroids and meteors, worldwide floods, tidal waves, worldwide fires, erosion, cosmic rays, recurring ice ages … And we think some plastic bags and some aluminum cans are going to make a difference? The planet isn’t going anywhere. WE ARE!

I think we are a lot less powerful/destructive than we think we are.  Yes everyone wants a clean and healthy place to live (ie no smog, trash, cancer causing substances, etc.)  But in the large term, to think that we can cause a whole planet to heat up just by a paltry few people (the developed world is a lot smaller than the undeveloped), I can't believe.  If it takes a  mega eruption of a volcano with an ash cloud over most of the world to cool and kill off the dinosaurs (if that is what happened), I don't see us creating that any time in the future.

My $.02 .

[Skywatch]

I find it somewhat hard to believe that people still deny the impact that humans have had on our planet and climate.  I wonder if people ever just open their eyes and observe what's around them.  

I agree with Wayne_R.
If you've ever watched "How the Earth was made" on either Discovery or Nat-Geo, global warming has gone on even before humans inhabited Earth. They did mention that the Earth was a warmer environment for the dinosaur's. You can't blame human intervention on that when we weren't round to take the blame for it. So yea, there's a reason for denial. "Humanised" global warming is just a ploy to get people to spend money by convincing them they will save the world if they do. How many items in grocery stores say "Go Green", "Reduce carbon footprint", "cut down on greenhouse CO2 emissions" And how many people buy that stuff thinking they're really "saving the world"? Really? All this "Humanised" global warming is a way to scare people into buying their products and spending money. The companies will do anything to make a buck. Don't complicate it anymore than it has to be.


That's my 2 cents.

[LFWX]

  But in the large term, to think that we can cause a whole planet to heat up just by a paltry few people (the developed world is a lot smaller than the undeveloped), I can't believe. 

Are you saying 'developed' vs. 'undeveloped' as in the number of square miles? If so, having people crowded into relatively small areas doesn't lesson the number any.
...or are you saying 'developed' vs. 'undeveloped' as in the USA vs. third world countries? If so, it's the developing world (undeveloped working towards being developed) that is producing the most pollution.

Sure, climate change may happen for any number of other reasons, but do we really want push it along with our own actions? (while at the same time causing any number of other problems)

Better safe than sorry!

[Dr Obbins]

There are 7,000,000,000 people on this planet. These people need jobs, food, shelter, infrastructure, energy and technology to exist and of course that will effect the environment. There are also natural disasters and natural occurring weather cycles that effect the environment. The environment is going to change as it always has. Why do people expect it to stay the same?

[IMADreamer]

There are 7,000,000,000 people on this planet. These people need jobs, food, shelter, infrastructure, energy and technology to exist and of course that will effect the environment. There are also natural disasters and natural occurring weather cycles that effect the environment. The environment is going to change as it always has. Why do people expect it to stay the same?

Why do people feel they don't have a responsibility to take care of their planet and be the stewards of it's well being?

[Weather Display]

the continents were in a different place when the dinosaurs were around
ie near the equator
and so completly different ocean currents too
so you cant compare to today

[Dr Obbins]

There are 7,000,000,000 people on this planet. These people need jobs, food, shelter, infrastructure, energy and technology to exist and of course that will effect the environment. There are also natural disasters and natural occurring weather cycles that effect the environment. The environment is going to change as it always has. Why do people expect it to stay the same?

Why do people feel they don't have a responsibility to take care of their planet and be the stewards of it's well being?

I don't know I am not one of them.

[Wayne_R]

Can of worms 

Good discussion and I like to hear everyone's views. Here are some more of mine 

Why do people feel they don't have a responsibility to take care of their planet and be the stewards of it's well being?

Like I said in my original post:

Yes everyone wants a clean and healthy place to live (ie no smog, trash, cancer causing substances, etc.)

Assuming that global warming is caused by us, what do we do?  We should strive to take care of the planet, but at what cost?  Do we want cheap electricity, gas, oil, water, the list goes on and on?  What are we willing to pay?  Double, triple, more?  Government subsidized like hybrid cars and we get taxed on it in the back end (Chevy Volt anyone)? Do we want to live like are ancestors did a 150+ years ago?...and live to a ripe old age of 47?  All for the cleanest most pristine earth. I think there is always a give and a take.

Also, I have lived in a few third world countries.  Pollution, don't get me started.  They are not worried about that (unless they are affluent), they are worried about putting food on the table and surviving.

The reason I don't believe it is that we've tried to forecast events for hundreds of years and we've been wrong more than right. Remember, old folks  , in the 70s about global cooling and we were all going to perish from that.  We can't even predict the weather a month, 6 months, a year from now.  And global warming is going to cause temps to go up a few degrees in 100  years (within the margin of error).

Nobody wants pollution, but it is where we live.  I love going on hikes in the Eastern Sierras to "Virgin" lakes and being completely alone. And when I see a Dorrito bag sitting next to the trail, it pisses me off.

Off my soap box, hopefully I won't be banned from the site     

[ocala]

Just like left versus right there will never be a right answer.
My view is that both sides have an argument.
I can't definitively say which I agree with.
7 billion people would seem to have some kind of impact. On the other hand natural changes have occurred since the planet cooled. Who knows.
 

[Wayne_R]

Just like left versus right there will never be a right answer.

Agreed

[LFWX]

Remember, old folks  , in the 70s about global cooling and we were all going to perish from that.

[02:43] "...perhaps part of our shift in the climate..." (video from Jan. 1978) http://abcnews.go.com/Video/playerIndex?id=2826327

[Dr Obbins]

Can of worms 

Good discussion and I like to hear everyone's views. Here are some more of mine 

Why do people feel they don't have a responsibility to take care of their planet and be the stewards of it's well being?

Like I said in my original post:

Yes everyone wants a clean and healthy place to live (ie no smog, trash, cancer causing substances, etc.)

Assuming that global warming is caused by us, what do we do?  We should strive to take care of the planet, but at what cost?  Do we want cheap electricity, gas, oil, water, the list goes on and on?  What are we willing to pay?  Double, triple, more?  Government subsidized like hybrid cars and we get taxed on it in the back end (Chevy Volt anyone)? Do we want to live like are ancestors did a 150+ years ago?...and live to a ripe old age of 47?  All for the cleanest most pristine earth. I think there is always a give and a take.

Also, I have lived in a few third world countries.  Pollution, don't get me started.  They are not worried about that (unless they are affluent), they are worried about putting food on the table and surviving.

The reason I don't believe it is that we've tried to forecast events for hundreds of years and we've been wrong more than right. Remember, old folks  , in the 70s about global cooling and we were all going to perish from that.  We can't even predict the weather a month, 6 months, a year from now.  And global warming is going to cause temps to go up a few degrees in 100  years (within the margin of error).

Nobody wants pollution, but it is where we live.  I love going on hikes in the Eastern Sierras to "Virgin" lakes and being completely alone. And when I see a Dorrito bag sitting next to the trail, it pisses me off.

Off my soap box, hopefully I won't be banned from the site     

Great post. You said all I was thinking and couldn't put into words. Especially "Assuming that global warming is caused by us, what do we do?"

[SlowModem]

In the year 2525, if man is still alive, we may find......

that climate change is or is not happening, and if mankind did or did not contribute to it.

(of course all the arguing about it can't do anything but heat the atmosphere    )

[W7DRM (old call was W3DRM)]

And the controversy continues...

Here is an article regarding the European deep-freeze. I'm just posting it without comment and will let each one draw their own conclusions to it.

• http://www.canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/44602?utm_source=CFP+Mailout&utm_campaign=ac6cdb226b-Call_to_Champions&utm_medium=email

[Weather Display]

more extremes is what was predicted,which is what you have just mentioned about, the European deep-freeze
(where one part of the planet is warmer than normal for an extended period, due to changes in the position of a jet streams, on the other side of that stuck board weather system/pattern/jet stream you will get the opposite: colder than normal

the weather patterns have been getting more stuck into long lasting patterns around the globe over the last few years

[KeithBC]

In the past, climate has changed for all kinds of reasons.  In the present, it is changing for a well-known reason.  The evidence is incontrovertible, but that doesn't stop those with a political or economic motivation from denying it and from recruiting their propaganda machines to promote their denial.

Those who believe that humans "can't possibly" be responsible for anything this big, I suggest they consider the question, "Why not?"  If something is preventing is from making such a big change, what is it?  Seven billion people all mking small changes adds up to one he!! of a big change.  There is nothing stopping us from trashing the planet, and the corporate powers that run the place insist that we do it.

[Wayne_R]

Seven billion people all making small changes adds up to one he!! of a big change. There is nothing stopping us from trashing the planet,

True, but there aren't 7 billion trashing the planet or doing the exact same thing to ruin it(i.e. driving old dirty diesel, smoking 5 packs of cigs a day, throwing gum on the sidewalk, or whatever else is causing this supposed warming) maybe one tenth of one percent.  Except maybe breathing, we all do that to some extent and the trees/plants like us for it .
 

and the corporate powers that run the place insist that we do it.

How?  By wanting affordable natural resources so we can drive our cars, live comfortably (heating/cooling), and have a better standard of living/longer life than our ancestors.   The corporate powers are not insisting we do this, people want this.  They do not want to live in a hut, no electricity, no heat, no running water and have half the lifespan (or like the people in the article...freezing to death).

[Weather Display]

the article linked above says that the globe has been cooling since 1998
thats just journalists repeating a statement someone else made
but where is the evidence in the article to back up that statement?

[Old Tele man]

...do the two phrases: (1) "...unintended consequences..." and (2) "...human folly..." sound prophetic here?

[SoMDWx]

By are we continuing to beat a dead horse?

[KeithBC]

True, but there aren't 7 billion trashing the planet or doing the exact same thing to ruin it(i.e. driving old dirty diesel, smoking 5 packs of cigs a day, throwing gum on the sidewalk, or whatever else is causing this supposed warming) maybe one tenth of one percent. 

Pretending ignorance doesn't make you more credible.  You know perfectly well what the cause of global warming is (or, from your point of view, what it is alleged to be).  It is the consumption of fossil fuels.  Not just dirty diesel, but also clean diesel, gasoline, natural gas, coal, jet fuel, etc.

If you truly believe that only 7 million people (a tenth of one percent) use fossil fuels, then I want some of what you've been smoking.  

and the corporate powers that run the place insist that we do it.

How?  By wanting affordable natural resources so we can drive our cars, live comfortably (heating/cooling), and have a better standard of living/longer life than our ancestors.   The corporate powers are not insisting we do this, people want this.  They do not want to live in a hut, no electricity, no heat, no running water and have half the lifespan (or like the people in the article...freezing to death).

It is true that it is the people that want the lifestyles.  But the corporations and their political minions are promoting the ideas that (1) we should want the lifestyles, (2) that it s acceptable that we want the lifestyles and (3) that anyone who suggests otherwise is an enemy.

[SlowModem]

By are we continuing to beat a dead horse?

[Old Tele man]

By are we continuing to beat a dead horse?

...nah, we're merely attempting to 'awaken' a comatose equine from it's terminal slumber by repeated use of physical force (wink,wink).