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Weather Station Hardware => Davis Instruments Weather Stations => Topic started by: SLOweather on September 27, 2018, 10:42:15 PM

Title: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: SLOweather on September 27, 2018, 10:42:15 PM
I missed an installation of a new VP2 today. According to my friend on the scene, the new ISS has a tipping spoon in place of the tipping bucket.

Did I miss the memo? I did a quick search here and didn't see anything on it. I know the station is a VP2 because I saw the sealed box.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: johnd on September 28, 2018, 03:07:16 AM
I know it was being talked about, but not seen any official announcement as yet. Which revision is this one (ie initial letters)?
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: miraculon on September 28, 2018, 08:25:43 AM
It would seem that this would require a re-work of the base. I hope that the provisions for the heater are still present.

Greg H.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: johnd on September 28, 2018, 03:01:58 PM
Q for DAVIS™, which box are WE the users gonna check ()?:

Time and tests will obviously tell, but I'd like to think it will be for the better - it should at least remove errors from an unbalanced seesaw and/or the two endstops being at different heights, plus there's obviously only one adjustment that you might need to make.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: AZweather on September 29, 2018, 02:05:57 PM
I just purchased and installed a VP2. Here’s a link of the tipping spoon/ collector

https://goo.gl/images/xuXyTa (https://goo.gl/images/xuXyTa)
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: johnd on September 29, 2018, 02:14:13 PM
I just purchased and installed a VP2. Here’s a link of the tipping spoon/ collector

https://goo.gl/images/xuXyTa (https://goo.gl/images/xuXyTa)

That's not a tipping spoon I'm afraid - that's the seesaw on the older 7852 rain gauge that preceded the current 6463 standalone gauge. The tipping spoon version will presumably succeed 6463 (assuming it gets given a different part number - which is not a given on past Davis history, just to confuse everyone).
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: AZweather on September 29, 2018, 02:54:05 PM
I just purchased and installed a VP2. Here’s a link of the tipping spoon/ collector

https://goo.gl/images/xuXyTa (https://goo.gl/images/xuXyTa)

That's not a tipping spoon I'm afraid - that's the seesaw on the older 7852 rain gauge that preceded the current 6463 standalone gauge. The tipping spoon version will presumably succeed 6463 (assuming it gets given a different part number - which is not a given on past Davis history, just to confuse everyone).

Thanks for the education on this. I’m very new to the hardware and didn’t know the difference.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: dalecoy on September 29, 2018, 05:25:56 PM
I just purchased and installed a VP2.

As Johnd implied, you didn't receive the latest model/version/whatever of the VP2. 
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: Mattk on September 29, 2018, 05:47:19 PM
So does this tipping spoon VP2 version exist or not? One would have thought if there re on the market then Davis would be publishing it and there would be some real evidence about it, have not seen anything that proves it exists yet
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: thomas on September 29, 2018, 05:50:28 PM
As miraculon noted, from the picture that does not look like an easy retro fit to current tipping buckets.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: trumper on September 30, 2018, 11:52:16 AM
Hi from Australia. 

Can confirm a single spoon, just got a brand new Davis Pro 2 from Davis Australia. After receiving it  I sent an email to Davis support asking about the new single spoon set up thinking there was something wrong after seeing all the pictures of the original seesaw arrangement on the DP 2's. 

I was told by Davis it's new.  Apparently, Davis think it is more accurate than the the double spoon/seesaw setup.   Furthermore, in the manual I got, it actually shows a single spoon not the seesaw arrangement.

Hope it works, but given I'm in fairly dry part of Australia I might not get to test it much.  So probably wont matter!!!. 
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: miraculon on September 30, 2018, 02:32:53 PM
Interestingly, a copy of the ISS manual (https://www.davisinstruments.com/product_documents/weather/manuals/07395-333_IM_6322C-6334.pdf) from 5/15/2015 shows a diagram of the "tipping spoons" on page 9. This is the same familiar pivoting tipping mechanism that we all "know and love".

I looked at my previously saved copy of the manual from 2010 and it shows the same diagram on page 14 and calls them "tipping buckets".

Both of these diagrams cover the cutting of the tie-wrap securing the tipping mechanism that was in place for shipping.

Was this just a nomenclature change, or did it presage a change to a single spoon?

Greg H.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: Mattk on September 30, 2018, 05:37:17 PM
Does anybody have a photo, a VP2 manual showing the "tipping spoon" or anything else to validate this? Really need some more on this than hearsay 

Trumper, can you provide a photo?
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: trumper on October 01, 2018, 02:47:34 AM
On the back page of the ISS manual it says "Document  Part Number 7395.357"  "Rev A 6/5/18"

On page 10 it has a picture of the single tipping spoon (about how to cut the cable tie)

I have attached a picture (I hope)
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: Mattk on October 01, 2018, 03:45:52 AM
Yes picture attached well, thankyou. Ok this appears to be a retro-fit replacement using the same/old rain collector base?
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: dalecoy on October 01, 2018, 10:11:06 AM
..... Ok this appears to be a retro-fit replacement using the same/old rain collector base?

Wouldn't that be a good approach?
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: miraculon on October 01, 2018, 12:45:54 PM
It does appear to use the existing base. The spoon "chute" empties into one of the outlet areas. I also can see that the mounting tabs are reused. I stand corrected on my earlier assumption...

I printed out a picture of the new tipping spoon assembly and took it out to my gauge. It appears that the new mechanism would interfere with the heater board, at least on the side where I mounted mine. Maybe if I moved the heater to the opposite side it would work.

I'll attach a picture of my heater board (a copy of the Davis that I made myself).

trumper, could you post a photo from the opposite side of the tipping spoon?

Greg H.


Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: ocala on October 01, 2018, 07:54:14 PM
Just an observation but it would seem during a heavy rain there would be a lot of splash out.
That spoon is pretty shallow.
Of course I could be wrong too.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: trumper on October 02, 2018, 04:34:02 AM
Hi Miraculon

Here is a photo of the unboxing of my VP 2 showing the tipping spoon from the other side.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: miraculon on October 02, 2018, 08:15:40 AM
Hi Miraculon

Here is a photo of the unboxing of my VP 2 showing the tipping spoon from the other side.

Thank you very much. It looks like it would be feasible to install the tipping spoon and leave the heater where it is. The wiring was my main concern with relocating the heater.

Hmmm...  :-k

Greg H.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: miraculon on October 02, 2018, 08:19:51 AM
I am wondering what the motivation was to make this change.

Warranty claims with broken reed switches? (the reed switch is somewhat vulnerable on the VP2)

Process issues with an operator-dependent solder connection?

Davis must have had good results with the tipping spoon in the VUE in order to make this change.

Greg H.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: mauro63 on October 02, 2018, 08:58:18 AM
Just an observation but it would seem during a heavy rain there would be a lot of splash out.
That spoon is pretty shallow.
Of course I could be wrong too.

good observation, the vp2 cone has a very larger cone diameter compared to vue and, obviously, with heavy rain the amount of water wich falls on the bucket is bigger
it could be interesting to have an image of the inner part of the rain collector, if Davis is attentive to details as always has been, it may have added a lower break drop to limit the problem
sorry for my english

 [ You are not allowed to view attachments ]
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: johnd on October 02, 2018, 09:27:23 AM
I am wondering what the motivation was to make this change.

I would guess that the main aim has been to increase rainfall accuracy, which remains the weakest point of the VP2 spec in recent years and the aspect that is most often criticised. Whether that aim is achieved remains to be seen of course. But yes a secondary benefit of making the rain gauge mechanism more easily replaceable by the user (which I'm guessing is possible on the new configuration, but I haven't seen it close-up yet) would be a step forwards too. Presumably the old reed switch might be replaced by a solid state switch on the new mechanism too?

Hopefully there might be a brief technical note circulated soon from Davis, but the new ISS  should be on display at the Amsterdam trade show next week so the usual Davis team should be able to provide more info in person.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: jgentry on October 02, 2018, 08:54:19 PM
If this is an improvement, I might have to get this for my field stations. My home station uses the RainWise tipping bucket gauge, which works very well.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: Mattk on October 02, 2018, 10:37:37 PM
The weakest link in the Davis VP2 rain collector is the outlet from the bottom of the cone not having suitable riser/sieve insert to prevent clogging and interference from foreign objects. This VP2 spoon which appears to be a retrofit to existing VP2 Base/cone won't solve the ago old clogging/blockage issue as there has been nothing Davis has done to this issue (insert/grates etc) that has ever solved this issue.   

I haven't decided as yet if the Spoon v Tipper is more or less prone to design affects?
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: mauro63 on October 05, 2018, 06:50:30 AM
official davis communication on the new rain gauge  ;)

Hello Mauro,

 Yes, we did recently change out the tipping bucket mechanism on all new VP2 stations.  We will be offering a retrofit kit to update older stations.  Though, it would most likely not be available until January as we are currently using all new mechanisms on new stations builds only.

 
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: miraculon on October 05, 2018, 09:16:46 AM
Are there any data available on the tipping spoon vs. tipping buckets at high rain rates?

Is the emptying rate for the spoon vs. bucket faster? We had heavy rain yesterday and the VP2 was significantly less than either my CoCoRaHS or Novalynx 8" TBR.

During "normal" gentle rainfall with no wind the three gauges agree within 0.01" which it the best you can expect with TBR.

NovaLynx publishes a correction factor chart for in/hr rain rate.

I don't see this under the current VP2 ISS manual, but in the manual for the "Rain Collector II" there is this:

Quote
VP2 Rain Collector II
Accuracy  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
For rain rates up to 2"/hr (50 mm/hr): ±4% of total or +0.01” (0.2mm) (0.01" = one tip of the bucket), whichever is greater.
For rain rates from 2"/hr (50 mm/hr) to 4"/hr (100 mm/hr): ±5% of total or +0.01” (0.2mm) (0.01" = one tip of the bucket), whichever is greater.

My measurements from yesterday were:
CoCoRaHS:   3.18"
VP2:            2.74"
Novalynx:     3.39"

VP2 was 13.5% lower than the CoCoRaHS. The Novalynx was 6.6% higher. There was a lot of wind, so some variation is due to location and wind currents. My back yard is small and the gauge locations do not comply with established siting guidelines.

For what it's worth, the standard VP2 cone was placed so I did not have the "Aerocone" in place. (getting ready for winter and testing the heater)


Greg H.



Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: havtrail on October 05, 2018, 11:31:41 AM
It would be interesting to see the relative accuracy data. Intuitively, the tipping spoon has to tip and then return to position, whereas the paired buckets only need to tip and the other bucket is then already in position. Seems like the paired buckets should be more accurate.

Rich K.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: ocala on October 05, 2018, 02:19:37 PM
It would be interesting to see the relative accuracy data. Intuitively, the tipping spoon has to tip and then return to position, whereas the paired buckets only need to tip and the other bucket is then already in position. Seems like the paired buckets should be more accurate.

Rich K.
While there is no neutral position for the spoon like the tipping buckets  I just wonder while it's in the process of dumping the load the water   is still pouring in from above. How is that going to be accounted for. Unless it's somehow collected during the dumping process.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: johnd on October 05, 2018, 02:32:43 PM
I guess it depends whether you're in a monsoon region or not. A rainfall rate of 0.6"/hr, which is pretty steady heavy rain is only one tip of a 0.01" gauge per minute. 5 times that rate (ie 3"/hr) which is more in thunderstorm territory is still only one tip every 12 secs. Higher rates still could give some potential losses I agree, but these could be compensated for in firmware (I don't believe the VP2 does that, though a putative VP3 with a more powerful processor maybe could).

So I'm not sure how much of an issue it is in practice and probably not very different from a TBR where rainfall is missed as the buckets tip.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: miraculon on October 05, 2018, 03:27:50 PM
The rain rate from this rain event hit 8.11 inch/hr.  :shock:

It was really coming down, the visibility was poor. (I also discovered a roof leak that I thought was previously fixed. ](*,))

I'll attach the Weatherlink 2 plot from that time period. It was an "off the charts" rain event.

I also added the "rain rate max" from the Novalynx 8" gauge. (from meteohub plots) It also peaked out at about 8"/hr.

Greg H.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: BCJKiwi on October 05, 2018, 03:42:58 PM
It would be interesting to see the relative accuracy data. Intuitively, the tipping spoon has to tip and then return to position, whereas the paired buckets only need to tip and the other bucket is then already in position. Seems like the paired buckets should be more accurate.

Rich K.
While there is no neutral position for the spoon like the tipping buckets  I just wonder while it's in the process of dumping the load the water   is still pouring in from above. How is that going to be accounted for. Unless it's somehow collected during the dumping process.

From the photos,  back of the spoon is very close to the the pivot, and, also appears to be offset from the center of the rain bucket so the drips would always land in the spoon even when it is tipping - so should be better than the tipping buckets.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: mauro63 on October 05, 2018, 04:25:02 PM
I believe that the single spoon system can be more precise, I will try to explain the reasons but I apologize in advance for the bad English  :sad:
in double spoon systems, most of the errors are due to the amount of water lost during the tipping phase, when the amount of water is enough for tipping, during the necessary time, water continues to fall on the same spoon without be measured, this until the tipping is complete allowing the opposite spoon to start collecting water

in a single spoon system the problem remains, but lesser than in a tipping bucket system,  the water collection start time after the tipping will be smaller, that is until the spoon has been lifted enough to make sure that the water does not come out of the spoon

Another aspect is the tipping speed, we don't know if a tipping spoon is more or less fast than a tipping bucket system, today I asked this information to Davis

Another primary aspect is due to the constructive semplicity, a single spoon it's more easy to calibrate, there's no balance problem as it often happens in a tipping bucket system.

A secondary problem regarding the accuracy is the lost of tipping count, if the water on one of the spoon isn't enough for tipping, this water will be not counted and will lost for evaporation, but this problem is the same in a single spoon system

I do not know if I was clear enough, in Italian I would have a lot less problems, please forgeve me  ;)
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: mauro63 on October 06, 2018, 02:19:47 AM
FOUND IT!

This is the 2015 International Patent that DAVIS was granted on a "Weighing Precipitation Gauge" (not called 'tipping spoon'):

https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/57/44/5c/6d00e340b2670a/WO2015148320A1.pdf (https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/57/44/5c/6d00e340b2670a/WO2015148320A1.pdf)

See paragraph [0051].

Quoted from paragraph [0060]: "Unlike "tipping bucket' rainfall gauges known in the art, because the collected fluid F has been measured during its accumulation, the volume at the time of tipping is not significant to record or to base a calculation on for calculating or otherwise determining rainfall or precipitation. Accordingly, any error associated with variation in the volume of fluid F at the tipping point of the bucket, as seen in rain gauges known in the art, does not occur.


wow!!!
therefore the idea of improving the vp2 rain gauge dates back to 2015 ?? three years to process and apply?
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: Mattk on October 06, 2018, 03:33:34 AM
FOUND IT!

This is the 2015 International Patent that DAVIS was granted on a "Weighing Precipitation Gauge" (not called 'tipping spoon'):

https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/57/44/5c/6d00e340b2670a/WO2015148320A1.pdf (https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/57/44/5c/6d00e340b2670a/WO2015148320A1.pdf)

See paragraph [0051].

Quoted from paragraph [0060]: "Unlike "tipping bucket' rainfall gauges known in the art, because the collected fluid F has been measured during its accumulation, the volume at the time of tipping is not significant to record or to base a calculation on for calculating or otherwise determining rainfall or precipitation. Accordingly, any error associated with variation in the volume of fluid F at the tipping point of the bucket, as seen in rain gauges known in the art, does not occur.


wow!!!
therefore the idea of improving the vp2 rain gauge dates back to 2015 ?? three years to process and apply?

The principle is no different to the Vue. However a clogged tipper is no different to a clogged spoon and that's something that has not been addressed for the past 20+ years.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: mauro63 on October 06, 2018, 03:56:28 AM
FOUND IT!

This is the 2015 International Patent that DAVIS was granted on a "Weighing Precipitation Gauge" (not called 'tipping spoon'):

https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/57/44/5c/6d00e340b2670a/WO2015148320A1.pdf (https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/57/44/5c/6d00e340b2670a/WO2015148320A1.pdf)

See paragraph [0051].

Quoted from paragraph [0060]: "Unlike "tipping bucket' rainfall gauges known in the art, because the collected fluid F has been measured during its accumulation, the volume at the time of tipping is not significant to record or to base a calculation on for calculating or otherwise determining rainfall or precipitation. Accordingly, any error associated with variation in the volume of fluid F at the tipping point of the bucket, as seen in rain gauges known in the art, does not occur.


wow!!!
therefore the idea of improving the vp2 rain gauge dates back to 2015 ?? three years to process and apply?

The principle is no different to the Vue. However a clogged tipper is no different to a clogged spoon and that's something that has not been addressed for the past 20+ years.

I'm not sure this is the same of davis vue, the document is dated 2015, the vue, if I'm not wrong, is on the market from 2010?
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: johnd on October 06, 2018, 04:04:36 AM
I'm not sure this is the same of davis vue, the document is dated 2015, the vue, if I'm not wrong, is on the market from 2010?

Mattk is talking about clogging in the funnel, not whether it's a spoon or TBR. And yes the tipping spoon in the Vue has been around since 2010. But presumably Davis have tweaked the design of the Vue spoon principle sufficiently that they feel it's worthy of a new patent application.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: mauro63 on October 06, 2018, 04:13:28 AM
I'm not sure this is the same of davis vue, the document is dated 2015, the vue, if I'm not wrong, is on the market from 2010?

Mattk is talking about clogging in the funnel, not whether it's a spoon or TBR. And yes the tipping spoon in the Vue has been around since 2010. But presumably Davis have tweaked the design of the Vue spoon principle sufficiently that they feel it's worthy of a new patent application.

I understood, sorry, you know my english is disgraceful  :oops:
about the clogging in the funnel I cannot see the problem, every rain collector has the same problem, the filter has the ability to prevent leaves, insects or anything from falling inside the measurement system, but it can not prevent the cone from closing the passage of water in excess of debris, but this is a problem for all rain gauges, even professional ones , even my deltaohm, which costs as a complete vp2, has a decidedly refined filter but if it clogs it can not do anything, it only counts the good maintenance

I'm wrong?
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: johnd on October 06, 2018, 04:30:33 AM
I think that Mattk believes that Davis could substantially improve the clogging resistance of eg the VP2 gauge. But agreed, this is nothing directly to do with the spoon vs TBR discussion.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: Mattk on October 06, 2018, 05:52:57 AM
I'm not sure this is the same of davis vue, the document is dated 2015, the vue, if I'm not wrong, is on the market from 2010?

Mattk is talking about clogging in the funnel, not whether it's a spoon or TBR. And yes the tipping spoon in the Vue has been around since 2010. But presumably Davis have tweaked the design of the Vue spoon principle sufficiently that they feel it's worthy of a new patent application.

about the clogging in the funnel I cannot see the problem, every rain collector has the same problem, the filter has the ability to prevent leaves, insects or anything from falling inside the measurement system, but it can not prevent the cone from closing the passage of water in excess of debris, but this is a problem for all rain gauges, even professional ones , even my deltaohm, which costs as a complete vp2, has a decidedly refined filter but if it clogs it can not do anything, it only counts the good maintenance

I'm wrong?

Maintenance is one thing but design is totally something that can prevent a lot of the Davis rain collector issues and this is certainly not a problem with all rain gauges. A so called debris collector or grate does very little to solve clogging. Has been discussed before

http://www.wxforum.net/index.php?topic=32511.msg343315#msg343315

Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: miraculon on October 06, 2018, 03:09:10 PM
FOUND IT!

This is the 2015 International Patent that DAVIS was granted on a "Weighing Precipitation Gauge" (not called 'tipping spoon'):

https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/57/44/5c/6d00e340b2670a/WO2015148320A1.pdf (https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/57/44/5c/6d00e340b2670a/WO2015148320A1.pdf)

See paragraph [0051].

Quoted from paragraph [0060]: "Unlike "tipping bucket' rainfall gauges known in the art, because the collected fluid F has been measured during its accumulation, the volume at the time of tipping is not significant to record or to base a calculation on for calculating or otherwise determining rainfall or precipitation. Accordingly, any error associated with variation in the volume of fluid F at the tipping point of the bucket, as seen in rain gauges known in the art, does not occur.


wow!!!
therefore the idea of improving the vp2 rain gauge dates back to 2015 ?? three years to process and apply?

The wheels at the USPTO grind quite slowly. I have been inventor/co-inventor on a number of US Patents, and it does take years for the process to complete. Three years sounds typical. (of course it has now been 5+ years since my last one was issued).

Greg H.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: rwilhour on October 12, 2018, 12:06:40 PM
Hi Miraculon

Here is a photo of the unboxing of my VP 2 showing the tipping spoon from the other side.


Ryan Wilhour from Scaled Instruments here.   There seems to be a model number on that tipping spoon It looks like it says 7344.456.  Can you provide all the text on the label for me?  I am going to randomly throw this in with my next freight order from Davis and see what happens :).
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: PaulMy on October 12, 2018, 01:30:02 PM
I needed to call Davis Support yesterday on an issue with my VP2 rain tipping and they are sending new tipping parts and metric adapter.  I asked support whether the new tipping spoon might be a better solution and he said the tipping spoon is only available for the Vue.  When I mentioned about the tipping spoon for VP2 as discussed here he said he had not been made aware and is just going to send the replacements parts for the original VP2 tipper.  I guess the new VP2 tipping spoon info hasn't gone through the Davis knowledge stream.

Enjoy,
Paul
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: johnd on October 12, 2018, 01:58:12 PM
My understanding is that the spoon variant is not in mainstream production as yet. The small number of 'spoon VP2' stations that have been produced were intended for extended field testing although one or two may have 'escaped' (and might therefore be collectors' items  :grin:). It's rumoured that full production may not start for a few months yet and once the wider test results are in.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: johnd on October 12, 2018, 02:32:04 PM
"Escaped" or VERY clever creation of "pre-marketing" buzz (like these posts)?

Yes, maybe. But it's a fairly trivial thing to create a sort of viral campaign around. Wouldn't Davis reserve that tactic for prior to a more exciting product launch, not that there's too much obviously on the horizon right now while EM and 2.0 are still being worked through?
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: rwilhour on October 12, 2018, 02:38:08 PM
"Escaped" or VERY clever creation of "pre-marketing" buzz (like these posts)?

Yes, maybe. But it's a fairly trivial thing to create a sort of viral campaign around. Wouldn't Davis reserve that tactic for prior to a more exciting product launch, not that there's too much obviously on the horizon right now?

Like a "Pro3"! :grin:

Realistically, just reading the tea leaves, Davis improving yet another aspect of the Pro2 leads me to believe that an anticipated Pro3 is that much further down the road.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: johnd on October 12, 2018, 03:01:59 PM
Yep, "piecemeal" rather than "wholesale" upgrade/improvement of a sacred cow product?!?  :roll:

Well, and at the risk of going OT somewhat, if we were to separate out inside and outside, what changes would you like to see in the outside sensors? I can't personally see too much that I would change. Yes I'd like to see a more consistently accurate rain gauge (but maybe (?) the spoon can deliver that). And personally I wish the rain gauge were more easily ground-mountable. And I dare say that the SHT31 critics will chime in.

But those relatively limited details aside, what else would you change - while sticking to the VP2 budget? (ie I'm sure we'd all like to see an ultrasonic anemometer for instance but I see no evidence that is feasible without increasing the price substantially).

Console features are probably a different matter, but I'm just thinking of the outside sensors here.

Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: galfert on October 12, 2018, 03:42:45 PM
Oh neat a single tipping spoon like in my Ambient hardware that I've been criticized for using that does not having double tipping buckets.

In all fairness I'm sure all tipping spoons are not created equal. Like I'm sure this new VP2 design is surely better than the Vue design. But still...what goes around comes around.

Look, please don't misread what I'm saying. I'm not evangelizing Ambient. I'm a big Davis fan and I'm anxiously waiting for a VP3. Glad to see Davis making improvements. Next focus should be that awfully dated looking console. For me Davis only needs to do two improvements and it is as good as a VP3. Change the console to nice color touch display, add built in WiFi logger with direct data access via network, and secondly change from LSS protocol to I2C protocol Sensirion sensors (make it a SHT85).
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: nincehelser on October 12, 2018, 04:07:26 PM
Oh neat a single tipping spoon like in my Ambient hardware that I've been criticized for using that does not having double tipping buckets.

In all fairness I'm sure all tipping spoons are not created equal. Like I'm sure this new VP2 design is surely better than the Vue design. But still...what goes around comes around.

(*sigh*)  The Ambient is much like a La Crosse single tipper, Galfert.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: galfert on October 12, 2018, 04:43:17 PM
Oh neat a single tipping spoon like in my Ambient hardware that I've been criticized for using that does not having double tipping buckets.

In all fairness I'm sure all tipping spoons are not created equal. Like I'm sure this new VP2 design is surely better than the Vue design. But still...what goes around comes around.

(*sigh*)  The Ambient is much like a La Crosse single tipper, Galfert.

Hmmm... Are you sure? .Let's make sure we keep the pecking order in line.
(Vaisala + RMY) > Davis > Acurite > Ambient > La Crosse > OS > weather rock on rope.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: nincehelser on October 12, 2018, 04:56:03 PM
Hmmm... Are you sure?

Yes.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: Mattk on October 12, 2018, 05:19:21 PM
Well considering this was raised by a VP2 sold in Australia then the QA has failed somewhere if it's not supposed to be mainstream yet?   
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: galfert on October 12, 2018, 05:40:50 PM
Hmmm... Are you sure?

Yes.

Great, thank you for that. It is confirmed then as you have equalled everything below Acurite, I'm sure Davis people lump and equal everything below them also. Therefore Acurite = Ambient. Not that I care as I have said before, I have no horse in this race. I'm still waiting for the right product to show up for sale. Right now my bet is on Davis finally pulling through after a long delay.

Anyway back to the main topic...

I know that there are several Davis owners with more than one ISS. Once this new tipping spoon becomes available it would be neat to see some comparison test data done by someone. Even if not totally being worthy of being called scientific, I think it would make for interesting and worthy information.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: nincehelser on October 12, 2018, 05:44:50 PM
Hmmm... Are you sure?

Yes.

Great, thank you for that. It is confirmed then as you have equalled everything below Acurite, I'm sure Davis people lump and equal everything below them also. Therefore Acurite = Ambient. Not that I care as I have said before, I have no horse in this race. I'm still waiting for the right product to show up for sale. Right now my bet is on Davis finally pulling through after a long delay.


It is confirmed you haven't looked at how many stations are constructed.   :roll:
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: ValentineWeather on October 12, 2018, 07:32:51 PM
Issue with the single spoon it can get easily overwhelmed holding the spoon down longer, not sure if that's addressed with the dual spoon being first I've heard of it.
Would be interesting in stand alone version only. I'll never mount a gauge high again but do realize not everyone wants weather instruments strewn all over the place.  :lol:

Hard to beat Rainwise RAINEW-111 stand alone IMO.

Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: openvista on October 12, 2018, 07:49:08 PM
Just one man's opinion:

OUTSIDE
• With the SHT31 production life in question; what NEW sensor(s)?
• Single Temp sensor and separate RH sensor?
• Change to industry-standardized sensor communication bus (sw or hw change)?
• Much easier access/replacement of FARS NiMH batteries!
• Upgraded, LONGER-life, FARS fan (DC normal; AC optional)

INSIDE
• Meld VUE and VP2 console capabilities or incorporate VP2 functions into VUE console.
• Consider COLOR display screen?
• Conform VP2 console to CWOP-expected ALT barometer format output.
• New 'stripped-down' VUE console for wall-mount (display only) that receives WiFi input from master VUE console.
• Consider WiFi-Logger direct to IP capability?
• Consider wetbulb temperature calculation addition into display

You asked...


TOPIC - "Back to your regular-scheduled transmissions."

Agreed with all the suggestions here.

But as much as a VP3 sounds like an imperative given the age of the VP2, I'd be happy with the existing product line so long as Davis was willing to fix broken stuff and leave what's working alone. Going new invariable creates a bunch of new problems and probably introduces a raft of counter-productive features (like WiFi-only ISS, cloud-only data, crappy documentation, etc). Technology industry trends are not going in a positive direction for DIY-ers and a new product would have to concede to the CURRENT marketplace, in one form or another, where people, including skilled professionals, don't fix things, read things or want to deal with details. They want it dead simple (so simple, oftentimes, it doesn't even work! Not much simpler than that!).

I, too, am curious about this new spoon design as I've been having issues recently with my 5 yr old tipping bucket (repeated ~30% errors even though everything appears in working order and does work perfectly *sometimes* for no reason related to the usual suspects: wind, debris, leveling, shadowing, etc). If this were an improvement, I could see picking one up in the spring. 
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: CW2274 on October 12, 2018, 08:10:30 PM
Just one man's opinion:

OUTSIDE
• With the SHT31 production life in question; what NEW sensor(s)?
• Single Temp sensor and separate RH sensor?
• Change to industry-standardized sensor communication bus (sw or hw change)?
• Much easier access/replacement of FARS NiMH batteries!
• Upgraded, LONGER-life, FARS fan (DC normal; AC optional)

INSIDE
• Meld VUE and VP2 console capabilities or incorporate VP2 functions into VUE console.
• Consider COLOR display screen?
• Conform VP2 console to CWOP-expected ALT barometer format output.
• New 'stripped-down' VUE console for wall-mount (display only) that receives WiFi input from master VUE console.
• Consider WiFi-Logger direct to IP capability?
• Consider wetbulb temperature calculation addition into display

You asked...


TOPIC - "Back to your regular-scheduled transmissions."
I'd be happy with the existing product line so long as Davis was willing to fix broken stuff and leave what's working alone.
No COLOR display!! Anarchy! Heresy! Blasphemy! =;
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: jgentry on October 12, 2018, 08:14:30 PM
Issue with the single spoon it can get easily overwhelmed holding the spoon down longer, not sure if that's addressed with the dual spoon being first I've heard of it.
Would be interesting in stand alone version only. I'll never mount a gauge high again but do realize not everyone wants weather instruments strewn all over the place.  :lol:

Hard to beat Rainwise RAINEW-111 stand alone IMO.

I agree with Randy on that. The RainWise gauge is a great investment. Might have to calibrate it once, but after you do, it works like a charm and matches well with CoCoRaHS gauge.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: thomas on October 12, 2018, 10:56:32 PM
I bought one of these little toys.  It uses a tipping spoon and seems to match up well with my Davis Vantage Pro

https://www.amazon.com/ECOWITT-Precision-Self-emptying-Collector-Temperature/dp/B0791B6B48
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: galfert on October 12, 2018, 11:09:26 PM
I bought one of these little toys.  It uses a tipping spoon and seems to match up well with my Davis Vantage Pro

https://www.amazon.com/ECOWITT-Precision-Self-emptying-Collector-Temperature/dp/B0791B6B48

That is a Fine Offset clone. Same rain gauge in the new Ambient Weather stations (WS-2902A and WS-2000). Good to hear that it tracks right along with Davis. Thanks!
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: Mattk on October 13, 2018, 12:09:11 AM
If anybody is going to get serious with new designs then maybe time to go all ultrasonic, no mechanical flip/flops or spinning anything, It is out there but what many probably mean is they want the top shelf that does it all at a cheap rate. 

Quote
....New 'stripped-down' VUE console for wall-mount (display only) that receives WiFi input from master VUE console.
Some would call that a Weather Echo, old part #'s 7602 & 7603, was good thing in its day, maybe all this was old will be new again?
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: SlowModem on October 13, 2018, 06:10:00 AM
Maybe Davis has their own Area 51?   ;)

I needed to call Davis Support yesterday on an issue with my VP2 rain tipping and they are sending new tipping parts and metric adapter.  I asked support whether the new tipping spoon might be a better solution and he said the tipping spoon is only available for the Vue.  When I mentioned about the tipping spoon for VP2 as discussed here he said he had not been made aware and is just going to send the replacements parts for the original VP2 tipper.  I guess the new VP2 tipping spoon info hasn't gone through the Davis knowledge stream.

Enjoy,
Paul
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: jgentry on November 27, 2018, 10:13:24 PM
For those that have the new Davis gauge, how does it compare to the CoCoRaHS?
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: mauro63 on January 31, 2019, 07:39:50 AM
No good news  :-|

 [ You are not allowed to view attachments ]
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: jgentry on January 31, 2019, 08:18:17 AM
No good news  :-|

 [ You are not allowed to view attachments ]

Maybe they are dealing with unexpected problems.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: mauro63 on January 31, 2019, 08:25:56 AM
I think that is not technicals but commercial problems, a lot of international distributor need to empty their warehouses before to buy new versions
Davis do not cooperate with dealer to upgrade of older stock, this is my opinion

Mauro
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: johnd on January 31, 2019, 08:34:01 AM
I think that is not technicals but commercial problems, a lot of international distributor need to empty their warehouses before to buy new versions
Davis do not cooperate with dealer to upgrade of older stock, this is my opinion

No, that's not how it works. There will be no upgrade of older stock - it's up to dealers to manage their existing inventory.

Davis will switch production when they are ready and new orders from dealers will then be filled with the next production batch (bearing in mind also that significant levels of buffer stock are held at the factory so even new orders from dealers can sometimes be filled with a previous station version - though this can often just be a pretty minor difference).
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: johnd on January 31, 2019, 12:19:04 PM
I would like to "...SEE THE DATA..." that this 'new & improved' raingauge is actually '...improved."

I suspect you're not alone. But really the only sort of convincing evidence would come from a properly organised trial ideally across a range of geographically dispersed sites over several months' of data and at sites where there was also a good eg CoCoRaHS record maintained simultaneously. And that sort of trial is not easy to organise.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: Old Tele man on January 31, 2019, 12:35:05 PM
From the pictures I've seen, Davis has a whole roof-top "sea" of test stations in operation -- granted not a world-wide location -- which must've provided enough data to convince them enough to move from 'engineering tests' to limited (Australia?) production.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: johnd on January 31, 2019, 01:06:07 PM
From the pictures I've seen, Davis has a whole roof-top "sea" of test stations in operation -- granted not a world-wide location -- which must've provided enough data to convince them enough to move from 'engineering tests' to limited (Australia?) production.

Yes, there are apparently a whole batch of the new rain gauges on test up there. But there's no 'limited' production as yet, except in the sense of a pilot batch intended for testing but a few of which AIUI inadvertently got shipped to Australia. But main production has yet to start as far as I'm aware.

But the point I was making is that no manufacturer will presumably introduce an updated product without some internal evidence to support its benefits. But what most people will inevitably want to see is some properly extensive and documented independent testing, eg of the sort that Stephen Burt has done for Davis products here in the UK. Unfortunately comparable testing elsewhere seems rarely to be reported.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: graculus on January 31, 2019, 01:31:57 PM
Does Davis still have field beta testers? Some years ago I remember there was a guy living not far from me who was getting their new stuff to test.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: EA1EF on January 31, 2019, 04:53:33 PM
Sorry if Offtopic, we (team meteocampoo.es meteomerindades.es ) found a easy and small solution to prevent rain gauge obstruction, it works in all Davis versions VP1 VP2 and Vue, also fit down plastic filters with bayonette and without.

No more words see it in video
https://youtu.be/9tKqLaLvZj8

Bonus trick idea after many money changing batteries are magic tag word LiFePo4 no more words the investigation it's free...

P.d. We have many Davis stations... Can see in our websites

Www.meteocampoo.es
Www.meteomerindades.es
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: miraculon on April 09, 2019, 02:57:20 PM
Scaled Instruments has the VP2 Tipping Spoon now. I just ordered one.

https://www.scaledinstruments.com/shop/davis-instruments/davis-7345-425-single-spoon-tipping-bucket-rain-collector-assembly-inches/ (https://www.scaledinstruments.com/shop/davis-instruments/davis-7345-425-single-spoon-tipping-bucket-rain-collector-assembly-inches/)

Greg H.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: JudinNorman on April 09, 2019, 03:01:39 PM
Is there any studies with real data showing this new spoon is more accurate ?
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: kobuki on April 09, 2019, 05:36:51 PM
Scaled Instruments has the VP2 Tipping Spoon now. I just ordered one.

https://www.scaledinstruments.com/shop/davis-instruments/davis-7345-425-single-spoon-tipping-bucket-rain-collector-assembly-inches/ (https://www.scaledinstruments.com/shop/davis-instruments/davis-7345-425-single-spoon-tipping-bucket-rain-collector-assembly-inches/)

Greg H.

Hm. I might actually buy this, as it's backwards compatible with my base. Yesterday it was the 2nd or 3rd time that the rain sensor went crazy and I had 3 inches/hour rain rate for like 10-15 minutes without actual rainfall (I had to fix it in the database). My guess it was the infamous stuck-in-the-middle problem with the tipping buckets.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: CW2274 on April 09, 2019, 05:47:46 PM
Scaled Instruments has the VP2 Tipping Spoon now. I just ordered one.

https://www.scaledinstruments.com/shop/davis-instruments/davis-7345-425-single-spoon-tipping-bucket-rain-collector-assembly-inches/ (https://www.scaledinstruments.com/shop/davis-instruments/davis-7345-425-single-spoon-tipping-bucket-rain-collector-assembly-inches/)

Greg H.
Yesterday it was the 2nd or 3rd time that the rain sensor went crazy and I had 3 inches/hour rain rate for like 10-15 minutes without actual rainfall (I had to fix it in the database). My guess it was the infamous stuck-in-the-middle problem with the tipping buckets.
A short will also cause this exact symptom.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: CW2274 on April 09, 2019, 05:50:09 PM
Hey Ryan, see you're logged in. Thanks for the quick turn on the speed cart for the anny. Thing works really well!
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: kobuki on April 09, 2019, 05:51:25 PM
Short of what, where? Is it possible moisture got in the tube? It should be able to cause this. It's OK now but the weather is pretty humid with occasional moderate rain.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: CW2274 on April 09, 2019, 05:54:11 PM
Short of what, where? Is it possible moisture got in the tube? It should be able to cause this. It's OK now but the weather is pretty humid with occasional moderate rain.
I honestly don't know. I just know that a short will do this as my Rainwise bucket that's hard wired to my ISS had one...thing went crazy.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: galfert on April 09, 2019, 06:07:21 PM
translation:
short = electrical short circuit
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: kobuki on April 09, 2019, 06:21:18 PM
translation:
short = electrical short circuit
condescending = having or showing an attitude of patronizing superiority
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: galfert on April 09, 2019, 06:28:53 PM
translation:
short = electrical short circuit
condescending = having or showing an attitude of patronizing superiority

Well excuse me for trying to help you. You said, "short of what." From what I read it sounded like you were not understanding what CW2274 was saying. I was not being condescending. It seemed to me like there was a disconnect in understanding between two people. I understood what CW2274 said so I was trying to help.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: kobuki on April 09, 2019, 06:54:26 PM
I have absolutely no idea why you think anyone here doesn't know what a(n electric) short is, but if you did try to help, my apologies.

That aside, I really don't know where to look for a short since the Reed tube and the SIM is connected using a short cable and while theoretically a short is possible along that wire and at the connector side, I highly doubt it's the cause. Though, it could be caused d by corrosion on the board or moisture getting in the tube. Those are examples of problems I've read about on this forum at least. There were quite a few lightning strikes at that time, but I don't think there's a relation - has anyone heard of such cases?

But I had no intention of derailing the thread with my problem, sorry about that, I'll open a new one at a later time.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: galfert on April 09, 2019, 07:05:12 PM
Apology accepted. I see now that you did understand CW2274. For some reason it really didn't seem that way and when I saw CW2274's response saying that he honestly didn't know, I felt that it didn't clarify to you what a short was, so it seemed to me like there was a double misunderstanding, as in I thought he didn't understand you either. Seems silly now. I should have stayed out of it and I'm sure if there was a misunderstanding you two would have cleared it up. Now I see that it was me who misunderstood both of you and the two of you were understanding each other.

Often when people write in short messages misunderstandings happen. But it isn't a misunderstanding just between the ones having the conversation but it can lead to a misunderstanding between those listening (reading). I tend to err on perhaps being too wordy. But I can type almost as fast as I speak, so it isn't a problem.

Okay...another day...we move on...
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: CW2274 on April 09, 2019, 07:19:17 PM
Agreed, a short is far fetched since the the run of cable is so small and protected, but a short does exactly the same as what the reed switch does, close the circuit and report a tip.
Just something to remember in case you get to the  ](*,) point.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: galfert on April 09, 2019, 08:05:25 PM
Has anyone found/read any published articles or papers by Davis touting the "improvements" of this new tipper?

Did you read the Patent that you posted earlier? I didn't read it. I thought when you posted the 2015 Patent that it probably held these answers and that the benefits were listed or mentioned there.

Perhaps we don't need to look for articles or any mentions of comparisons. Wouldn't simple specifications of each one provide the answers we are looking for? Perhaps if one says Accuracy +- 5% vs the other one saying +- 2%.....then you'd know right there.  So all we need are specs.
 
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: galfert on April 09, 2019, 08:35:40 PM
Here are the specifications for the VP2 (double tipping bucket)
https://www.davisinstruments.com/product_documents/weather/spec_sheets/6152_62_53_63_SS.pdf

Accuracy . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . For rain rates up to 4"/hr (100 mm/hr): ±4% of total or ± one tip of the
bucket (0.01"/0.2mm), whichever is greater.


Now all we need are the specifications for the new model rain tipper.

EDIT: Maybe this is new spoon tipper specifications. This document is dated Dec 2018.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: galfert on April 09, 2019, 09:02:17 PM
This documentation with specifications at the end is clearly for the double tipping bucket design. Perhaps the previous document link that I posted is for the new design that is already incorporated in the newest VP2 stations being sold. Anyone have an older copy of their VP2 manual?

https://www.davisinstruments.com/product_documents/weather/manuals/07395-294_IM_6465.pdf

Accuracy . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .For rain rates up to 2"/hr (50 mm/hr): ±4% of total or +0.01”
(0.2mm) (0.01" = one tip of the bucket) whichever is greater. For
rain rates from 2"/hr (50 mm/hr) to 4"/hr (100 mm/hr): ±5% of total
or +0.01” (0.2mm), whichever is greater.


Either way I started to read the 2015 Patent. In just the first couple pages it says:
Quote
BACKGROUND OF THE INVENTION (excerpt)

Typically, in known rainfall gauge devices, some of which
are referred to as "tipping" gauges, a rainfall collector includes a bucket, spoon, or cup
apparatus that accumulates a volume of rainwater and then tips, signaling that a known
amount of rain has fallen. However, in such instrumentation, errors may be generated simply
due to the physical construction and operation of the rain gauge.

[0004] Accordingly, there remains a need to provide rain gauge instrumentation that
accurately measures rainfall without errors associated with the physical construction and
operation of tipping bucket rain gauges known in the field.
To me that sounds like there is a clear improvement with this new design.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: CW2274 on April 09, 2019, 09:12:50 PM
If they can get to the Rainwises's 111 at 2%, I'll really be impressed. Given the fact that the Davis is still a 6.5" bucket compared to the RW's 8", I'm dubious, but look forward to actual field testing.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: galfert on April 09, 2019, 09:34:01 PM
Okay my head hurts after reading several pages of that Patent. I found very interesting improvements in this new design. There are many improvements actually and I don't yet understand them all. But these bits I'm about to share are an incredible realization....

We look at tipping rain gauge and we think...oh okay it fills and then it empties and then it just counts the number of tips. But how does it know when to tip? With the old method it tipped after the water reached a certain weight in the bucket that caused it to tip over and then it presents the other bucket for the next bit of rain. Apparently there are several claimed shortcomings with the old design. Namely that water doesn't fully empty and that there is loss of water in heavy rains....etc.

Okay so here it is....the big new idea...the new sensor works by weight but it isn't mechanical in determining the weight like the old model. The new tipping spoon is basically a digital scale. It electronically tips over rather than mechanically. This means that the tipping function is computer controlled and it can happen at different levels if needed....because when it tips the water may not fully leave the spoon. As such it doesn't matter if water remains because the spoon which is a digital scale re-zeros after every tip. So new water starts to collect and it doesn't matter if previous water didn't fully leave the spoon because it resets to zero. There are also other improvements in draining and collection so that loss of water is less affected during tipping....but the tipping also happens much faster because it happens at the blink of an eye as it uses magnets rather than springs. If you end up with a bit of debris that is stuck to the bottom of the spoon...no big deal...it won't take up volume for water measurement since its weight is reset.

Bottom line....this new tipping spoon is smart...and much more advanced. It probably still isn't as perfect as a Stratus precision gauge but this is a very interesting invention.

Good job Davis! .....now give us a new console and I2C bus sensors.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: CW2274 on April 09, 2019, 10:02:21 PM
It probably still isn't as perfect as a Stratus precision gauge but this is a very interesting invention.
I'm sure many will :roll: over this statement, but if the readings are close between my RW and my Stratus, which they always are, I use my RW as my 'official' reading.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: graculus on April 09, 2019, 11:21:56 PM
Does anyone know for sure that the VP2 tipping spoon is actually the very sophisticated device described in the patent? Maybe it's just a re-packaged version of the Vue spoon...
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: kobuki on April 10, 2019, 05:40:45 AM
I also think we'll need to see some comparative field tests from actual users to see how good this new sensor is. From the patent, it looks like the spoon assembly has some active electronics, did I get that right? How is the partial tipping handled?
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: rwilhour on April 10, 2019, 07:27:52 PM
Ugh... Sorry guys... I had to increase my price on the new style tipping spoons.   :-(  I was incorrectly invoiced for my initial purchase and batch.  Upon reorder I saw the price significantly higher and I asked why it went up.  I was told my initial purchase price was an error.  My website price was $33.45, unfortunately I had to bump it up to $48.64 to hold my standard profit margin when taking the corrected price into account.  When Davis lists these on their site, they will have a retail price of $70 (seems high to me).  I promise I didn't just get greedier due to strong sale on a new item, if that was the case I would have started high in the first place.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: CW2274 on April 10, 2019, 07:52:17 PM
Ugh... Sorry guys... I had to increase my price on the new style tipping spoons.   :-(  I was incorrectly invoiced for my initial purchase and batch.  Upon reorder I saw the price significantly higher and I asked why it went up.  I was told my initial purchase price was an error.  My website price was $33.45, unfortunately I had to bump it up to $48.64 to hold my standard profit margin when taking the corrected price into account.  When Davis lists these on their site, they will have a retail price of $70 (seems high to me).  I promise I didn't just get greedier due to strong sale on a new item, if that was the case I would have started high in the first place.
You're fired.




 ;)
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: galfert on April 10, 2019, 08:23:52 PM
Ryan,
uhhh!  ](*,)  I just got done telling a bunch of friends that it was $33 and change and they they should buy this. Now don't I look like the horse's you know what. But we understand. Not your fault. Davis is probably trying to cash in on this patent.

Do you have specs for this new rain gauge? We'd like to know the accuracy of this new gauge. Maybe it isn't worth it?
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: rwilhour on April 11, 2019, 09:37:04 AM
Ryan,
uhhh!  ](*,)  I just got done telling a bunch of friends that it was $33 and change and they they should buy this. Now don't I look like the horse's you know what. But we understand. Not your fault. Davis is probably trying to cash in on this patent.

Do you have specs for this new rain gauge? We'd like to know the accuracy of this new gauge. Maybe it isn't worth it?

Yeah this is why I decided to pipe up and say something, I didn't want to just quietly raise prices without explanation.  I don't post in the forums much because I feel like it would be an agenda to push products.  I would rather sales happen organically and I simply work in the background to hopefully provide the best customer service.  However, sometimes something needs to be said in as in this case.

Regarding documentation, I don't have any documentation at all for these new units.  In fact it is my understanding that they were released to me prematurely.  I was told upon my second order that they were not really supposed to be selling these just yet but they would let the second order go through.  Does this mean that once I run out there will be a dry spell before I can get more?  I simply do not know at this point.  Does this mean that there not done refining the product before releasing them to vendors and what I have in stock are not a finished product?  I don't know, but I sort of doubt that.  I think it is more about ramping up production and hitting a solid transition date.  This is all speculation...   Now back to my obscurity cave LOL.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: havtrail on April 11, 2019, 09:49:28 AM
Ryan,
uhhh!  ](*,)  I just got done telling a bunch of friends that it was $33 and change and they they should buy this. Now don't I look like the horse's you know what. But we understand. Not your fault. Davis is probably trying to cash in on this patent.

Do you have specs for this new rain gauge? We'd like to know the accuracy of this new gauge. Maybe it isn't worth it?
Yeah this is why I decided to pipe up and say something, I didn't want to just quietly raise prices without explanation.  I don't post in the forums much because I feel like it would be an agenda to push products.  I would rather sales happen organically and I simply work in the background to hopefully provide the best customer service.  However, sometimes something needs to be said in as in this case.

Regarding documentation, I don't have any documentation at all for these new units.  In fact it is my understanding that they were released to me prematurely.  I was told upon my second order that they were not really supposed to be selling these just yet but they would let the second order go through.  Does this mean that once I run out there will be a dry spell before I can get more?  I simply do not know at this point.  Does this mean that there not done refining the product before releasing them to vendors and what I have in stock are not a finished product?  I don't know, but I sort of doubt that.  I think it is more about ramping up production and hitting a solid transition date.  This is all speculation...   Now back to my obscurity cave LOL.

Look on the positive side: I think you had a dealer exclusive!  \:D/

Rich K.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: kobuki on April 11, 2019, 10:03:42 AM
Davis is testing via early adopters...
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: mikeym2m on April 11, 2019, 10:10:59 AM
Glad I got my order in under the wire! It's in the mail. Thank you.

Cheers

 [tup]

MikeyM
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: jgentry on April 11, 2019, 11:03:08 AM
Ryan,
uhhh!  ](*,)  I just got done telling a bunch of friends that it was $33 and change and they they should buy this. Now don't I look like the horse's you know what. But we understand. Not your fault. Davis is probably trying to cash in on this patent.

Do you have specs for this new rain gauge? We'd like to know the accuracy of this new gauge. Maybe it isn't worth it?

Yeah this is why I decided to pipe up and say something, I didn't want to just quietly raise prices without explanation.  I don't post in the forums much because I feel like it would be an agenda to push products.  I would rather sales happen organically and I simply work in the background to hopefully provide the best customer service.  However, sometimes something needs to be said in as in this case.

Regarding documentation, I don't have any documentation at all for these new units.  In fact it is my understanding that they were released to me prematurely.  I was told upon my second order that they were not really supposed to be selling these just yet but they would let the second order go through.  Does this mean that once I run out there will be a dry spell before I can get more?  I simply do not know at this point.  Does this mean that there not done refining the product before releasing them to vendors and what I have in stock are not a finished product?  I don't know, but I sort of doubt that.  I think it is more about ramping up production and hitting a solid transition date.  This is all speculation...   Now back to my obscurity cave LOL.

I think the latter would be the case. But if you do hear anything about refining of the new gauge, just please let us know.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: drew1021 on April 12, 2019, 06:47:22 PM
I received my new tipping spoon assy today and wouldn't you know it, it's pouring rain. Hopefully Mother Nature will cooperate so I can get it installed tomorrow. I'm excited about doing some side by side comparisons with my stratus.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: CW2274 on April 12, 2019, 07:00:41 PM
I received my new tipping spoon assy today and wouldn't you know it, it's pouring rain. Hopefully Mother Nature will cooperate so I can get it installed tomorrow. I'm excited about doing some side by side comparisons with my stratus.
Any accuracy lit?
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: drew1021 on April 12, 2019, 07:28:33 PM
No, nothing at all.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: jgentry on April 13, 2019, 09:54:54 AM
I received my new tipping spoon assy today and wouldn't you know it, it's pouring rain. Hopefully Mother Nature will cooperate so I can get it installed tomorrow. I'm excited about doing some side by side comparisons with my stratus.

Let us know what your results are. I should be getting mine next Monday.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: drew1021 on April 13, 2019, 10:44:23 AM
I received my new tipping spoon assy today and wouldn't you know it, it's pouring rain. Hopefully Mother Nature will cooperate so I can get it installed tomorrow. I'm excited about doing some side by side comparisons with my stratus.

Let us know what your results are. I should be getting mine next Monday.


Will do. Unfortunately I'm unsure when I'll be able to install it due to persistent rain. Hopefully it will stop for a while later on so I can change it out.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: ocala on April 13, 2019, 11:41:53 AM
I received my new tipping spoon assy today and wouldn't you know it, it's pouring rain. Hopefully Mother Nature will cooperate so I can get it installed tomorrow. I'm excited about doing some side by side comparisons with my stratus.

Let us know what your results are. I should be getting mine next Monday.


Will do. Unfortunately I'm unsure when I'll be able to install it due to persistent rain. Hopefully it will stop for a while later on so I can change it out.
Take that puppy inside and install it.
We need results!
  :-P
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: galfert on April 13, 2019, 11:50:19 AM
The only results I need are a spec sheet or a side by side comparison against the old version or against a Stratus.

Just changing it out is only going to result in, "yeah, it works."
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: drew1021 on April 13, 2019, 11:58:59 AM
The only results I need are a spec sheet or a side by side comparison against the old version or against a Stratus.

Just changing it out is only going to result in, "yeah, it works."

Stratus can do
Well I caught a break from the rain and swapped out the old for the new. I got measurements from the stratus and my console. Now we wait.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: WheatonRon on April 13, 2019, 01:04:10 PM
The only results I need are a spec sheet or a side by side comparison against the old version or against a Stratus.

Just changing it out is only going to result in, "yeah, it works."

Stratus can do
Well I caught a break from the rain and swapped out the old for the new. I got measurements from the stratus and my console. Now we wait.

I am supposed to receive my new spoon tipper from Ryan on Monday. How difficult was it to change out the tipper for the new spoon? Was this swap-out process obvious or would some instructions or illustrations have helped?

I am cautiously optimistic about this new tipper but we will see. I have three VP2s closely located to each other such that similar results should be achieved but historically, their rainfall measurements have been unacceptably different, whether the rainfall is heavy or light. I considered hooking up one of the VP2s to my Rainwise 111, but it unexpectedly died after a very short life.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: drew1021 on April 13, 2019, 02:45:05 PM
The only results I need are a spec sheet or a side by side comparison against the old version or against a Stratus.

Just changing it out is only going to result in, "yeah, it works."

Stratus can do
Well I caught a break from the rain and swapped out the old for the new. I got measurements from the stratus and my console. Now we wait.

I am supposed to receive my new spoon tipper from Ryan on Monday. How difficult was it to change out the tipper for the new spoon? Was this swap-out process obvious or would some instructions or illustrations have helped?

I am cautiously optimistic about this new tipper but await results. I have three VP2s closely located to each other such that similar results should be achieved but their rainfall measurements are wildly different, whether the rainfall is heavy or light. I considered hooking up one of the VP2s to my Rainwise 111, but it unexpectedly died after a very short life.

Not difficult at all if you're familiar with the layout of the old tipper. Took about 10 minutes without pulling down the entire ISS. Instructions would have been nice, especially to those that aren't too mechanically inclined. It looks like we'll have a lull in the precipitation for awhile so I may not have any results until tomorrow morning.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: miraculon on April 13, 2019, 03:15:22 PM
Mine came in today's mail.

I temporarily connected it to a ISS SIM that I only use for a temperature station.

I reconfigured the VUE console out in the garage for a VP2 ISS on that channel (#7).

Manually "tipping" the spoon resulted in counts, so it works OK. The spoon moves quite a bit, it seems to almost vertical at the stop.

Two comments:


There were no instructions, but I think that it uses the same mounting scheme as the existing bucket assembly. I'll install the spoon when I change over to the "Aerocone" for the summer in the coming weeks. (yes, we can still get snow up here...)

Greg H.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: ocala on April 13, 2019, 04:51:06 PM
The only results I need are a spec sheet or a side by side comparison against the old version or against a Stratus.

Just changing it out is only going to result in, "yeah, it works."
Of course we need side by side comparisons. What else could I be referring too??
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: galfert on April 13, 2019, 05:20:45 PM
The only results I need are a spec sheet or a side by side comparison against the old version or against a Stratus.

Just changing it out is only going to result in, "yeah, it works."
Of course we need side by side comparisons. What else could I be referring too??

Glad we are on the same page then. I know you've been around a while and know better. So I wasn't referring to you but in general (nobody in specific) I was just letting people know to not bother giving us comparisons to some other station down the street.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: mikeym2m on April 14, 2019, 09:52:13 AM
I received mine Sat and hope to get it installed this upcoming week. I'll be comparing it to a Stratus located less than 12" away.

Cheers

 :grin:

MikeyM
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: miraculon on April 15, 2019, 06:08:19 PM
I just installed mine and changed over to the Aerocone. (no particular reason other than it was time to shut down the heater for the season, at least I hope)

The most nail-biting moment was trying to release the snaps for the old tipping bucket assembly. I was really worried that I was going to break one or more of them off. All of a sudden it released and I was able to remove it.

The wire routing seemed a little strange, I passed it out of a different hole in the bottom so the wire didn't cross over anything. The cable could have used another couple of inches.

Greg H.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: WheatonRon on April 15, 2019, 09:23:47 PM
How difficult is it to replace the tipper with the new spoon tipper?

Not difficult at all if you're familiar with the layout of the old tipper. Took about 10 minutes without pulling down the entire ISS. Instructions would have been nice, especially to those that aren't too mechanically inclined. It looks like we'll have a lull in the precipitation for awhile so I may not have any results until tomorrow morning.

I got my new spoon tipper today. It took awhile to figure out how to perform the replacement but I finally figured it out. A simple one-page illustration would have helped (I am reasonably mechanically inclined) but for nearly $50, what should a person expect? Tacky, Davis. Fortunately, I have several Davis rainbases around, acquired to try and fix the less than stellar rainfall accuracy I have experienced from the VP2 over the years, so I had the ability to experiment a bit. Will it finally fix the known weakness in the VP2 system? Who knows, but with Spring storms coming, I should have a good test in the next few months.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: jgentry on April 15, 2019, 10:53:59 PM
How difficult is it to replace the tipper with the new spoon tipper?

Not difficult at all if you're familiar with the layout of the old tipper. Took about 10 minutes without pulling down the entire ISS. Instructions would have been nice, especially to those that aren't too mechanically inclined. It looks like we'll have a lull in the precipitation for awhile so I may not have any results until tomorrow morning.

I got my new spoon tipper today. It took awhile to figure out how to perform the replacement but I finally figured it out. A simple one-page illustration would have helped (I am reasonably mechanically inclined) but for nearly $50, what should a person expect? Tacky, Davis. Irrespective of my challenge I do not recommend completing this task without first taking the ISS down from its perch. Fortunately, I have several Davis rainbases around, acquired to try and fix the less than stellar rainfall accuracy I have experienced from the VP2 over the years, so I had the ability to experiment a bit. Will it finally fix the known weakness in the VP2 system? Who knows, but with Spring storms coming, I should have a good test in the next few months.

Got mine today also and installed it on one of my field stations. Wished Davis would’ve designed the tipping mechanism part to just simply snap in the base. I broke the old topper while trying to pop it out with a flathead screwdriver. Lol
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: jgentry on April 15, 2019, 10:56:39 PM
The field station that I own and replaced the tippers with the new spoon can be found on Weather Underground by going here:

https://www.wunderground.com/dashboard/pws/KALTHORS2?cm_ven=localwx_pwsdash
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: twcmaster on April 16, 2019, 01:05:42 AM
Disclaimer: **PLEASE TAKE ALL MY RAIN DATA WITH A BIG GRAIN OF SALT (SEE DETAILS BELOW)**

I'm probably not the best one to do this, but I will be the first until someone can provide a better setup. My old double tipper is pretty well calibrated, but I am in a really windy area and that tends to throw any sort of consistency with all my gauges (Novalynx 8"/Davis/Rainwise 111/Stratus) all out of whack.

I am located in Long Island, NY on the LI Sound. We had a front with rain blow through yesterday, and the numbers were off, but I really think a better comparison can be made if I get some rain without gusty winds (which does occasionally happen).  Unfortunately, I am not home right now to compare to the Novalynx or Straus and the Rainwise is out of commission while I test the Davis tipper.

Davis Traditional Tipping (2 Spoon) Gauge
VP2ISS/Vue Console
Aerocone


New Tipping Spoon Gauge
VP2ISS/Vue Console
Aerocone
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: jgentry on April 16, 2019, 08:50:34 AM
Disclaimer: **PLEASE TAKE ALL MY RAIN DATA WITH A BIG GRAIN OF SALT (SEE DETAILS BELOW)**

I'm probably not the best one to do this, but I will be the first until someone can provide a better setup. My old double tipper is pretty well calibrated, but I am in a really windy area and that tends to throw any sort of consistency with all my gauges (Novalynx 8"/Davis/Rainwise 111/Stratus) all out of whack.

I am located in Long Island, NY on the LI Sound. We had a front with rain blow through yesterday, and the numbers were off, but I really think a better comparison can be made if I get some rain without gusty winds (which does occasionally happen).  Unfortunately, I am not home right now to compare to the Novalynx or Straus and the Rainwise is out of commission while I test the Davis tipper.

Davis Traditional Tipping (2 Spoon) Gauge
VP2ISS/Vue Console
Aerocone
http://tinyurl.com/y3z9zjjr

New Tipping Spoon Gauge
VP2ISS/Vue Console
Aerocone
http://tinyurl.com/y6gxfqb7

The new spoon has over 7” and the old tipper has 0 for the daily totals...
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: twcmaster on April 16, 2019, 11:48:53 AM
Wow, it wasn't like that when I posted this. I put it on a generic rain collector shelf and only used a bungee to secure it, so the only thing I can think of is that it blew off the shelf and is dangling in the wind. I will be back on site Thursday night.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: drew1021 on April 16, 2019, 11:54:25 AM
The only results I need are a spec sheet or a side by side comparison against the old version or against a Stratus.

Just changing it out is only going to result in, "yeah, it works."

Stratus can do
Well I caught a break from the rain and swapped out the old for the new. I got measurements from the stratus and my console. Now we wait.

Unfortunately I had an issue with the mechanism, I suspect the modular plug. Anyhow I've got a replacement on the way, hopefully I'll have it installed in time for the next storm system on Friday. Will keep everyone updated with results.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: Jester on April 16, 2019, 11:58:38 AM
jgentry, where did you get your SHT-75?
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: jgentry on April 16, 2019, 12:08:17 PM
jgentry, where did you get your SHT-75?

The place I got mine are sold out.  See this thread for other places
https://www.wxforum.net/index.php?topic=36254.0
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: Jester on April 18, 2019, 06:35:10 AM
Ordered up a tipping spoon this week for my VP2 from Ryan (Scaled Instrument), it should be in Fri. My rain gauge is fairly accurate, usually +/- .02 of my Stratus rain gauge I use for my CoCoRaHS reports. We have rain moving in late Friday afternoon/early evening. I hope to have it installed before the event. Anxious to see how accurate it is. Any updates from anybody who installed theirs?
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: miraculon on April 18, 2019, 08:28:55 AM
We had the first rain overnight since the tipping spoon was installed.

Interesting results, the Davis VP2 agreed within 1 tip, but the NovaLynx was higher. All three tend to agree well with calm winds.

Note that the Aerocone was also reinstalled at the same time of the tipping spoon installation.

CoCoRaHS: 0.83"
VP2 (w/spoon): 0.82"
NovaLynx 8": 0.92"

It was windy overnight with 25+ mph gusts. I will need to compare results when winds are calm. My backyard is small and the gauges are non-compliant with standard siting recommendations. Not much I can do about that.

Greg H.

Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: mikeym2m on April 18, 2019, 10:35:30 AM
I installed mine 2 days ago and expecting rain Fri, Sat and Sun.
Here's a picture of the VP2 and Stratus about a close as I could possible get them. I'll update when I get some rain. I also have a WeatherFlow for another comparison.

Cheers

 :-)

MikeyM

www.mikeymsweather.com
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: drew1021 on April 18, 2019, 03:25:33 PM
Update: Replacement spoon assy installed, along with a thorough spring cleaning of the ISS.
Now we wait. Thunderstorms expected tomorrow.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: ocala on April 18, 2019, 07:24:19 PM
A lot of storms expected Friday. Can't wait for the results.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: twcmaster on April 19, 2019, 03:05:03 AM
Disclaimer: **PLEASE TAKE ALL MY RAIN DATA WITH A BIG GRAIN OF SALT (SEE DETAILS BELOW)**

I'm probably not the best one to do this, but I will be the first until someone can provide a better setup. My old double tipper is pretty well calibrated, but I am in a really windy area and that tends to throw any sort of consistency with all my gauges (Novalynx 8"/Davis/Rainwise 111/Stratus) all out of whack.

I am located in Long Island, NY on the LI Sound. We had a front with rain blow through yesterday, and the numbers were off, but I really think a better comparison can be made if I get some rain without gusty winds (which does occasionally happen).  Unfortunately, I am not home right now to compare to the Novalynx or Straus and the Rainwise is out of commission while I test the Davis tipper.

Davis Traditional Tipping (2 Spoon) Gauge
VP2ISS/Vue Console
Aerocone


New Tipping Spoon Gauge
VP2ISS/Vue Console
Aerocone

I just got back to the house.

Stratus: .62
Novalynx 8" Manual NWS: .59
Davis Original Tipper: .61
New Tipper .48

Again, please take these numbers with a grain of salt. It is now several days after the event that I took the stratus and Novalynx readings, so it is possible there was some evaporation even though the numbers are close to the Davis original which was real time.

The new tipper did get blown on it's side, and I think the wind blowing in the funnel direclty caused 7+ inches of rain to register,  but I believe that was well after the rain had already ended and the wind switched directions and increased.

Anyway, this was not an ideal setup with the issues I had and not being here, but I just wanted to throw it out there since most haven't gotten theirs set up or are waiting for rain. I will definitely be looking to see if the new tipper lags the other gauges as regardless of where it finished, it also started off behind the original davis when the rain  first started and that was when there was barely any wind.

I have added back the (freshly calibrated today) Rainwise 111 to the pole, so I have that, the original Davis, the Stratus, and New Davis all on one pole  ](*,) and the Novalynx on the ground on its stand. We have a flood watch in effect and 1-3 inches forecasted tomorrow, so we will see what happens.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: Jester on April 19, 2019, 06:51:18 AM
A lot of storms expected Friday. Can't wait for the results.


We are expecting some strong storms today (FRI) here as well. Hope to get my tipping spoon installed before they get here. Mail drops around 2pm, maybe I can beat the storms.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: miraculon on April 19, 2019, 08:29:29 AM
Last 24 hour result for my gauges:

New tipping spoon Davis VP2: 0.26"
Novalynx 8" TBR: 0.28"
CoCoRaHS (Stratus): 0.26"

It seems to be working fine.

Greg H.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: drew1021 on April 19, 2019, 11:12:16 AM
Quick update:  Light rain shower moved through earlier today with these results

CoCoRaHS:  .05
VP2 w/ new spoon assy:  .05

More heavier precipitation expected later today [tup]
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: Jester on April 19, 2019, 02:15:54 PM
Ok, installed my tipping spoon, op checked and standing by for the rain.  Easy to install, didn't have to take down my ISS. It took about 10min to do.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: ocala on April 19, 2019, 05:02:00 PM
So far so good it seems with the results.
The real test is going to be heavy rain.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: drew1021 on April 19, 2019, 06:58:50 PM
Another update:  We had a heavy shower move through earlier that added another .18" in my Stratus.

Precipitation totals so far today....
Stratus gauge.    .23
VP2    .24

Hopefully more rain later on tonight.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: drew1021 on April 20, 2019, 07:30:15 AM
Another update:  We had a heavy shower move through earlier that added another .18" in my Stratus.

Precipitation totals so far today....
Stratus gauge.    .23
VP2    .24

Hopefully more rain later on tonight.

Final update:  Another .11"  overnight in my Stratus gauge. So the totals are as follows....

Stratus gauge     .34  If you want to split hairs, .34.5
VP2     .36

It appears that the new tipping spoon assy has a slight positive bias. I would imagine this would continue to show as the amounts accumulated. I would like to know where the adjustment is on the spoon assy.

Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: galfert on April 20, 2019, 07:45:31 AM
I wouldn't mess with adjustment just yet. That very slight bias may help during heavier down pour.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: drew1021 on April 20, 2019, 08:00:46 AM
I wouldn't mess with adjustment just yet. That very slight bias may help during heavier down pour.

Understood, however part of the total was a heavier shower that moved through yesterday.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: kobuki on April 20, 2019, 08:01:30 AM
Stratus gauge     .34  If you want to split hairs, .34.5
I want to split hairs and .34.5 is rather .35 than .34  8-)
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: Jester on April 20, 2019, 08:11:19 AM
Ok, high wind w/ light to heavy rain last night w/ moderate winds and moderate to heavy rain though 0640 this morning. Went to bed around 2215. Strtaus 0.034 VP2 0.34. Rain continued till 0640 this morning, VP2 collected an additional 0.13 by 2359. rain totals 0700-0659 for CoCoRaHS report, Stratus 1.41 VP2 1.46. The new tipper read +0.05 for the reporting period. I have an aero cone on the way. I'll install it and see what happens next. Based on my initial OBS, I would say the new tipper performs well in lighter to moderate rain but gains in heavier but I need more rain events to judge how this new tipper is going perform. The old tipper was the opposite, usually better in heavier rains and ran low during lighter rain events. My old tipper was usually +/- 0.02 of my Stratus. I'll just have to adjust my DB as I always do. More to follow after the aero cone install and more rain. Quick question, do I have to take down my rain bucket heater for the new cone to fit? I know you cant use the heater w/ the new cone and plan to swap to the older cone for the winter.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: miraculon on April 20, 2019, 08:25:57 AM
Quote
Quick question, do I have to take down my rain gauge heater for the new cone to fit?

I have the heater and the Aerocone fits over it just fine. I would not run the heater this way.

It might be a good idea to unplug the power supply for the heater for the season. I unplug my power supply for the heater.

It might take the heat, but I would not take any chances.

Greg H.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: drew1021 on April 20, 2019, 08:54:10 AM
Another update:  We had a heavy shower move through earlier that added another .18" in my Stratus.

Precipitation totals so far today....
Stratus gauge.    .23
VP2    .24

Hopefully more rain later on tonight.

Final update:  Another .11"  overnight in my Stratus gauge. So the totals are as follows....

Stratus gauge     .34  If you want to split hairs, .34.5
VP2     .36

It appears that the new tipping spoon assy has a slight positive bias. I would imagine this would continue to show as the amounts accumulated. I would like to know where the adjustment is on the spoon assy.

BTW, I'm using the aerocone
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: Jester on April 20, 2019, 09:03:35 AM
Quote
Quick question, do I have to take down my rain gauge heater for the new cone to fit?

I have the heater and the Aerocone fits over it just fine. I would not run the heater this way.

It might be a good idea to unplug the power supply for the heater for the season. I unplug my power supply for the heater.

It might take the heat, but I would not take any chances.

Greg H.

Awesome. I keep it unplugged during the off season and only heat up the bucket for forecasted snow events.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: jgentry on April 20, 2019, 09:32:48 AM
Ok, high wind w/ light to heavy rain last night w/ moderate winds and moderate to heavy rain though 0640 this morning. Went to bed around 2215. Straus 0.034 VP2 0.34. Rain continued till 0640 this morning, VP2 collected an additional 0.13 by 2359. rain totals 0700-0659 for CoCoRaHS report, Stratus 1.41 VP2 1.46. The new tipper read +0.5 for the reporting period. I have an aero cone on the way. I'll install it and see what happens next. Based on my initial OBS, I would say the new tipper performs well in lighter to moderate rain but gains in heavier but I need more rain events to judge how this new tipper is going performs. The old tipper was the opposite, usually better in heavier rains and ran low during lighter rain events. My old tipper was usually +/- 0.02 of my Stratus. I'll just have to adjust my DB ad I always do. More to follow after the aero cone install and more rain. Quick question, do I have to take down my rain gauge heater for the new cone to fit? I know you cant use the heater w/ the new cone and plan to swap to the older cone for the winter.

This is my opinion here... The VP2 should read more rain during stronger wind events due to a bigger collection area. Your results reflects the results I get from my RainWise RainNew 111 gauge.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: galfert on April 20, 2019, 10:07:41 AM
This is my opinion here... The VP2 should read more rain during stronger wind events due to a bigger collection area. Your results reflects the results I get from my RainWise RainNew 111 gauge.

Please explain bigger collection area.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: JudinNorman on April 20, 2019, 10:28:52 AM
This is my opinion here... The VP2 should read more rain during stronger wind events due to a bigger collection area. Your results reflects the results I get from my RainWise RainNew 111 gauge.

Please explain bigger collection area.

Vp2 collection area 6.5" stratus 4"
Rainwise collection area 8" stratus 4"

Simple concept
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: mikeym2m on April 20, 2019, 10:54:07 AM
Readings from overnight with periods of heavy and also very light rain. Also some periods of fairly windy conditions, 20+ mph. More rain to follow today and tomorrow.

Davis VP2 with new rain gauge    .95"
Stratus                                          .94"

Pretty happy so far with the update.

 [tup]

MikeyM

http://www.mikeymsweather.com
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: twcmaster on April 20, 2019, 12:56:58 PM
My tipper is still lagging after heavy rains. It was installed on a brand new aerocone and gauge.

Novalynx NWS 8" Manual - 1.06"
Stratus - 1.06"
Old Davis Tipper w/ Aerocone- 1.11"
New Davis Tipper w/ Aerocone- .90"
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: mikeym2m on April 20, 2019, 01:10:11 PM
One thing I noticed is that the rain gauge must be perfectly level. When I first remounted the ISS it was just slightly out of level tilted toward the back of the cup and the water would run over the back of the cup and it wouldn't tip.

Cheers

MikeyM
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: jgentry on April 20, 2019, 01:50:36 PM
One thing I noticed is that the rain gauge must be perfectly level. When I first remounted the ISS it was just slightly out of level tilted toward the back of the cup and the water would run over the back of the cup and it wouldn't tip.

Cheers

MikeyM


The RainWise is the same way. Since I’ve couldn't achieve perfection, I adjusted the screws to where the gauge could perform like it should.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: drew1021 on April 20, 2019, 02:38:13 PM
One thing I noticed is that the rain gauge must be perfectly level. When I first remounted the ISS it was just slightly out of level tilted toward the back of the cup and the water would run over the back of the cup and it wouldn't tip.

Cheers

MikeyM



The RainWise is the same way. Since I’ve couldn't achieve perfection, I adjusted the screws to where the gauge could perform like it should.

Yeah that ol perfection bug will sometimes make you feel like   ](*,)
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: CW2274 on April 20, 2019, 03:12:22 PM
I wouldn't mess with adjustment just yet. That very slight bias may help during heavier down pour.

Understood, however part of the total was a heavier shower that moved through yesterday.
Yeah, personally I wouldn't get too frisky with re-calibrating anything til you get more of a sample size. That's exactly how I jacked up my RW bucket then had to do it all over again, but obviously your call.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: WheatonRon on April 20, 2019, 04:54:10 PM
I received my new tipper and got familiar with the exchange process (since Davis doesn’t include any instructions) by installing it in a spare VP2 rain base. Not too difficult but as others have indicated previously, it can be installed in your ISS without taking it down. Having done it both ways, I prefer making the exchange without taking the ISS down.

I use the word “exchange” rather than “upgrade” for this new tipper as I am skeptical that the rainfall accuracy will improve. I speak from experience having replaced the rain base several times and changed the collector cone to the aerocone without seeing any meaningful improvement in accuracy but maybe this time....
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: drew1021 on April 20, 2019, 07:44:17 PM
One more update today:

We had a mostly cloudy day with a period of light rain with little if any wind associated with it.
I emptied the Stratus gauge this morning at 0715 and read the gauge around 1900 when the rain had stopped. Results...

Stratus     .21
VP2    .21

It appears that the heavier storms yesterday may have contributed to the slightly higher total obtained then.



Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: twcmaster on April 20, 2019, 08:38:03 PM
My tipper is still lagging after heavy rains. It was installed on a brand new aerocone and gauge.

Novalynx NWS 8" Manual - 1.06"
Stratus - 1.06"
Old Davis Tipper w/ Aerocone- 1.11"
New Davis Tipper w/ Aerocone- .90"

Looks like there is a problem with my transmitter. The whole setup is in my living room now and rain is still accumulating (>31" now) The temperature has been negative single digits for the last hour, and is now -90 even though nothing is plugged into the Tepm/Hum slot. I am going to have to get a new transmitter and retry this all over again.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: racer3 on April 26, 2019, 09:46:27 AM
Nobody has posted in awhile. I am wondering how everyone's comparisons are going. Debating if it is worth the switch.

Also was wondering if anybody knows what the NWS uses with their automated ASOS system for precip?
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: WheatonRon on April 26, 2019, 10:00:16 AM
Nobody has posted in awhile. I am wondering how everyone's comparisons are going. Debating if it is worth the switch.

Also was wondering if anybody knows what the NWS uses with their automated ASOS system for precip?

So far not impressed but I really need a good rain. Last night here are my results from my CoCo gauge and my three VP2s:

CoCo gauge, .15
VP2 new tipper, .09
VP2 old tipper, .16
VP2 old tipper, .13

I cleaned all the tippers yesterday of residual rain and dirt so that couldn’t affect results.

Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: Jester on April 26, 2019, 10:26:50 AM
Nobody has posted in awhile. I am wondering how everyone's comparisons are going. Debating if it is worth the switch.

Also was wondering if anybody knows what the NWS uses with their automated ASOS system for precip?


I haven't gotten any rain since my initial install/report. Expecting rain today. I have added an aerocone for testing.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: mikeym2m on April 26, 2019, 10:27:30 AM
So far I've had great performance from the new tipping spoon.
Today:

VP2 with new tipping spoon   .19"
Stratus rain gauge                 .19"

There have been times when there was .01" difference and if I took the cover off of the VP2 spoon was almost full, but not quite enough to tip it so I kind of write off the .01" difference.

As I said before making sure the ISS is perfectly level is very important.

Cheers

 :-)

MikeyM
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: openvista on April 26, 2019, 10:52:03 AM
If I'm not mistaken, one of the reasons to move to the spoon is for people who can't get their setup perfectly level. The spoon operates on weight, not balance. At least that's what I remember from reading preliminary descriptions of the design. I wonder if someone (johnd, rwilhour) can confirm?
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: mikeym2m on April 26, 2019, 11:11:59 AM
In my case the initial installation had the tipping spoon slightly tilted towards the back of the spoon and the water would run out of the back of the spoon and not completely fill so it wouldn't tip. Leveling the ISS solved that problem.

Cheers

 :-)

MikeyM
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: galfert on April 26, 2019, 11:30:40 AM
If I'm not mistaken, one of the reasons to move to the spoon is for people who can't get their setup perfectly level. The spoon operates on weight, not balance. At least that's what I remember from reading preliminary descriptions of the design. I wonder if someone (johnd, rwilhour) can confirm?

I can confirm. I read the long tediously boring patent filing. It mentioned various advantages like it didn't need to be perfectly level. The spoon does not fill 100% when ready to tip to accommodate for slight leveling alignment. And yes the tipping occurs by weight but not of total weight but by weight difference between tips, meaning if debris or some water didn't fully empty (caused by adhesion) it doesn't matter because it re-zeros (tare) after every tip.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: miraculon on April 26, 2019, 11:34:30 AM
I cleaned up the old tipping bucket to put it away for storage. I was reminded that the old buckets are "chrome" plated.

I have noticed that the new spoon is just black plastic.

Does anyone know why the spoon is not plated? Why the buckets were in the first place? I can imagine that it was a cost-save for Davis to eliminate the plating.

Greg H.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: galfert on April 26, 2019, 11:38:54 AM
I cleaned up the old tipping bucket to put it away for storage. I was reminded that the old buckets are "chrome" plated.

I have noticed that the new spoon is just black plastic.

Does anyone know why the spoon is not plated? Why the buckets were in the first place? I can imagine that it was a cost-save for Davis to eliminate the plating.

Greg H.

It probably had two purposes. It was an insulating and reflective design to reduce evaporation and it probably was a more slippery surface to ensure more successful drainage when tipping.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: jgentry on April 26, 2019, 12:19:20 PM
Had light to moderate rainfall yesterday and my Davis station with the spoon recorded the same as the CoCoRaHS gauge.

One of Davis’ big weaknesses just became their strength IMO.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: Jester on April 26, 2019, 02:10:18 PM
Storm went through Status 0.75 new tipping spoon 0.68 -0.07. Two rain events and I'm not not impressed. I don't think there is a way to calibrate this?
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: CW2274 on April 26, 2019, 02:37:40 PM
Also was wondering if anybody knows what the NWS uses with their automated ASOS system for precip?
This oughta cover it...
https://www.weather.gov/media/asos/aum-toc.pdf
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: racer3 on April 26, 2019, 03:05:02 PM
Thanks, Going to be some good reading there!
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: drew1021 on April 26, 2019, 05:08:17 PM
OK, after our rain event today I have to say so far I'm not impressed by the new tipping spoon assy.
Today's totals:       Stratus      .24
                            VP2     .26

Of the three rain events since I installed the tipping spoon assy two of the events overshot the stratus. I have checked for proper level.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge? Updated)
Post by: mikeym2m on April 26, 2019, 07:59:30 PM
Here's the latest from Thornhurst, PA

VP2       .95  w/ new tipping spoon.
Stratus  .93

Update: Light to moderate rain in the morning and then heavier rain in the evening for about 2 hours. Total was over about 24 hour period.

I'm happy.

MikeyM
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: ocala on April 27, 2019, 07:36:18 AM
Here's the latest from Thornhurst, PA

VP2       .95  w/ new tipping spoon.
Stratus  .93

I'm happy.

MikeyM
What was the duration of that rain event? Was it a quick deluge or a long drawn out event.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: miraculon on April 27, 2019, 08:18:53 AM
Rain from yesterday as follows:

VP2 (w/spoon): 0.03"
CoCoRaHS: 0.03"
NovaLynx: 0.03"

Greg H.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: dport on April 27, 2019, 08:49:59 AM
If someone has time and wants to do a manual calibration test that would be much appreciated.  I did this with my VP2 last summer.  I really cooked it though (averaged 4 inches per hour rain rate) because I wanted it to be accurate for the heavy thunderstorms we frequently get in the summer.  Below are my results.  I had an error of just 2.61%:

http://www.wxforum.net/index.php?topic=34706.msg353256#msg353256

The results are in!  At least after two of my tests.  Both tests achieved an average rainfall rate of about 4 inches an hour using 500ml in a water bottle with a pin hole at the bottom.  So, we know that 500ml is supposed to equal 0.92 inches of rain in the VP2.  Here are the actual results

Test 1:  500ml = 0.89 inches
Test 2:  500ml = 0.90 inches

Some water may have been left in the tipper from test 1 to test 2, that could account for the extra hundredth.  Regardless, these numbers are technically within spec according to Davis.  I will also say that I performed this test during the middle of the day with bright sunshine, temp of 87, and dew point of 62.  Some evaporation may have occurred, but probably not enough to make a real different.

Now, the question is, do I even bother adjusting the screws? My calibration tells me I'm low by about 2% on my gauge. 

*Edit*, just opened unit to see the tipper.  It was about half full at the end of the 2nd test.  I think I was probably spot on at about 0.895 inches per test.  0.895/0.919 = 2.61%
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: drew1021 on April 27, 2019, 09:23:07 AM
If someone has time and wants to do a manual calibration test that would be much appreciated.  I did this with my VP2 last summer.  I really cooked it though (averaged 4 inches per hour rain rate) because I wanted it to be accurate for the heavy thunderstorms we frequently get in the summer.  Below are my results.  I had an error of just 2.61%:

http://www.wxforum.net/index.php?topic=34706.msg353256#msg353256

The results are in!  At least after two of my tests.  Both tests achieved an average rainfall rate of about 4 inches an hour using 500ml in a water bottle with a pin hole at the bottom.  So, we know that 500ml is supposed to equal 0.92 inches of rain in the VP2.  Here are the actual results

Test 1:  500ml = 0.89 inches
Test 2:  500ml = 0.90 inches

Some water may have been left in the tipper from test 1 to test 2, that could account for the extra hundredth.  Regardless, these numbers are technically within spec according to Davis.  I will also say that I performed this test during the middle of the day with bright sunshine, temp of 87, and dew point of 62.  Some evaporation may have occurred, but probably not enough to make a real different.

Now, the question is, do I even bother adjusting the screws? My calibration tells me I'm low by about 2% on my gauge. 

*Edit*, just opened unit to see the tipper.  It was about half full at the end of the 2nd test.  I think I was probably spot on at about 0.895 inches per test.  0.895/0.919 = 2.61%


Yeah I was thinking the same thing. Wish I had a Novalynx calibration bottle, would come in handy right now. However I'm not in to spending 135.00 to check accuracy on a 48.00 tipping spoon assy.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: bahuga on April 27, 2019, 10:11:33 AM
I can confirm. I read the long tediously boring patent filing. It mentioned various advantages like it didn't need to be perfectly level. The spoon does not fill 100% when ready to tip to accommodate for slight leveling alignment. And yes the tipping occurs by weight but not of total weight but by weight difference between tips, meaning if debris or some water didn't fully empty (caused by adhesion) it doesn't matter because it re-zeros (tare) after every tip.
The patent describe a system measuring the weight of the water accumulating in a large spoon, but the Davis single spoon tipping bucket (7345.425 and 7345.147)  is a much more simple system comparable to the Vantage Vue bucket, with a reed switch detecting the magnet/counterweight during the tipping of the bucket. The reed switch seems to be sealed in a plastic block - see attached picture
 [ You are not allowed to view attachments ]  
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: dalecoy on April 27, 2019, 10:26:09 AM
I can confirm. I read the long tediously boring patent filing. It mentioned various advantages like it didn't need to be perfectly level. The spoon does not fill 100% when ready to tip to accommodate for slight leveling alignment. And yes the tipping occurs by weight but not of total weight but by weight difference between tips, meaning if debris or some water didn't fully empty (caused by adhesion) it doesn't matter because it re-zeros (tare) after every tip.

Is there evidence that says that the new VP2 spoon assembly actually uses that patent?  Just because a patent application was filed, doesn't mean that this particular device uses that design. 

I guess I'm just asking whether the new spoon assembly (or the packaging it comes in) is marked with that patent number. Or whether there is any evident internal mechanism (electronics, etc.) that would indicate that.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: galfert on April 27, 2019, 01:15:25 PM
I can confirm. I read the long tediously boring patent filing. It mentioned various advantages like it didn't need to be perfectly level. The spoon does not fill 100% when ready to tip to accommodate for slight leveling alignment. And yes the tipping occurs by weight but not of total weight but by weight difference between tips, meaning if debris or some water didn't fully empty (caused by adhesion) it doesn't matter because it re-zeros (tare) after every tip.

Is there evidence that says that the new VP2 spoon assembly actually uses that patent?  Just because a patent application was filed, doesn't mean that this particular device uses that design. 

I guess I'm just asking whether the new spoon assembly (or the packaging it comes in) is marked with that patent number. Or whether there is any evident internal mechanism (electronics, etc.) that would indicate that.

Good question. I don't know. The fact that people are receiving these new guages and are claiming that no documentation ships with the product and there is no available documentation on Davis' website makes it hard to check. Now someone with one of these new guages could look to see if the product has a patent stamp number on it.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: galfert on April 27, 2019, 01:18:07 PM
I can confirm. I read the long tediously boring patent filing. It mentioned various advantages like it didn't need to be perfectly level. The spoon does not fill 100% when ready to tip to accommodate for slight leveling alignment. And yes the tipping occurs by weight but not of total weight but by weight difference between tips, meaning if debris or some water didn't fully empty (caused by adhesion) it doesn't matter because it re-zeros (tare) after every tip.
The patent describe a system measuring the weight of the water accumulating in a large spoon, but the Davis single spoon tipping bucket (7345.425 and 7345.147)  is a much more simple system comparable to the Vantage Vue bucket, with a reed switch detecting the magnet/counterweight during the tipping of the bucket. The reed switch seems to be sealed in a plastic block - see attached picture
 [ You are not allowed to view attachments ]  

Ok. Seems like you have a valid point. I still think we need more details on product documentation.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: CW2274 on April 27, 2019, 03:19:58 PM
If someone has time and wants to do a manual calibration test that would be much appreciated.  I did this with my VP2 last summer.  I really cooked it though (averaged 4 inches per hour rain rate) because I wanted it to be accurate for the heavy thunderstorms we frequently get in the summer.  Below are my results.  I had an error of just 2.61%:

http://www.wxforum.net/index.php?topic=34706.msg353256#msg353256

The results are in!  At least after two of my tests.  Both tests achieved an average rainfall rate of about 4 inches an hour using 500ml in a water bottle with a pin hole at the bottom.  So, we know that 500ml is supposed to equal 0.92 inches of rain in the VP2.  Here are the actual results

Test 1:  500ml = 0.89 inches
Test 2:  500ml = 0.90 inches

Some water may have been left in the tipper from test 1 to test 2, that could account for the extra hundredth.  Regardless, these numbers are technically within spec according to Davis.  I will also say that I performed this test during the middle of the day with bright sunshine, temp of 87, and dew point of 62.  Some evaporation may have occurred, but probably not enough to make a real different.

Now, the question is, do I even bother adjusting the screws? My calibration tells me I'm low by about 2% on my gauge. 

*Edit*, just opened unit to see the tipper.  It was about half full at the end of the 2nd test.  I think I was probably spot on at about 0.895 inches per test.  0.895/0.919 = 2.61%

Wish I had a Novalynx calibration bottle, would come in handy right now. However I'm not in to spending 135.00 to check accuracy on a 48.00 tipping spoon assy.
Well that was the topic of the other thread. Just make your own.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: wxthomson on April 27, 2019, 09:05:24 PM
Just thinking out loud but I think it would be coincidental if 2 devices side by side measured the same amount.

Rain doesn't fall uniformly across any given area.

Just watch a sidewalk when it starts to rain,  It doesn't all get wet at the same time. there's a drop here and then a drop there until finally it's all covered.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: CW2274 on April 27, 2019, 10:21:52 PM
Just thinking out loud but I think it would be coincidental if 2 devices side by side measured the same amount.

Rain doesn't fall uniformly across any given area.

Just watch a sidewalk when it starts to rain,  It doesn't all get wet at the same time. there's a drop here and then a drop there until finally it's all covered.
Oh, without a doubt, exactly why rain comp measurements should be as close as possible. Myself, I have my RW tipper and Stratus gauge 6 inches apart and at the same height. If that ain't comparable.....
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: drew1021 on April 28, 2019, 06:11:43 AM
Just thinking out loud but I think it would be coincidental if 2 devices side by side measured the same amount.

Rain doesn't fall uniformly across any given area.

Just watch a sidewalk when it starts to rain,  It doesn't all get wet at the same time. there's a drop here and then a drop there until finally it's all covered.
Oh, without a doubt, exactly why rain comp measurements should be as close as possible. Myself, I have my RW tipper and Stratus gauge 6 inches apart and at the same height. If that ain't comparable.....

Just to clarify, mine are about 6" apart as well
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: bahuga on April 28, 2019, 06:14:40 AM
Quote

I guess I'm just asking whether the new spoon assembly (or the packaging it comes in) is marked with that patent number. Or whether there is any evident internal mechanism (electronics, etc.) that would indicate that.
A weighting system, such as the one described in the patent would imply, as you said,  the presence of some sensor(s) and some electronics. I have dissembled the new VP2 spoon - there is only 2 screws : one for the reed switch compartment and the other that assemble the bucket block to the base block. When the base block is removed, the back of the spoon is visible - see attached picture. No sign of sensor or electronic, just the magnet counterweight, and a calibration screw - exactly the same design as the Vantage Vue tipping bucket.
Finally, I was not able to locate any stamp or indication about a patent number.

 [ You are not allowed to view attachments ]
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: dalecoy on April 28, 2019, 09:58:56 AM
Quote

I guess I'm just asking whether the new spoon assembly (or the packaging it comes in) is marked with that patent number. Or whether there is any evident internal mechanism (electronics, etc.) that would indicate that.
A weighting system, such as the one described in the patent would imply, as you said,  the presence of some sensor(s) and some electronics. I have dissembled the new VP2 spoon - there is only 2 screws : one for the reed switch compartment and the other that assemble the bucket block to the base block. When the base block is removed, the back of the spoon is visible - see attached picture. No sign of sensor or electronic, just the magnet counterweight, and a calibration screw - exactly the same design as the Vantage Vue tipping bucket.
Finally, I was not able to locate any stamp or indication about a patent number.

Thanks for doing that and reporting.  So, fairly conclusively, the patent application has nothing to do with this particular device.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: galfert on April 28, 2019, 10:08:20 AM
Quote

I guess I'm just asking whether the new spoon assembly (or the packaging it comes in) is marked with that patent number. Or whether there is any evident internal mechanism (electronics, etc.) that would indicate that.
A weighting system, such as the one described in the patent would imply, as you said,  the presence of some sensor(s) and some electronics. I have dissembled the new VP2 spoon - there is only 2 screws : one for the reed switch compartment and the other that assemble the bucket block to the base block. When the base block is removed, the back of the spoon is visible - see attached picture. No sign of sensor or electronic, just the magnet counterweight, and a calibration screw - exactly the same design as the Vantage Vue tipping bucket.
Finally, I was not able to locate any stamp or indication about a patent number.

Thanks for doing that and reporting.  So, fairly conclusively, the patent application has nothing to do with this particular device.

Bummer! I suppose Davis is saving the patent for the VP3.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: WheatonRon on April 28, 2019, 10:43:38 AM
It would be interesting if Davis support would confirm the existence of the patent and that it was not used in the new tipper.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: dalecoy on April 28, 2019, 11:35:31 AM
It would be interesting if Davis support would confirm the existence of the patent and that it was not used in the new tipper.

Why would you need confirmation that the patent isn't used in this particular device?
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: WheatonRon on April 28, 2019, 12:22:33 PM
It would be interesting if Davis support would confirm the existence of the patent and that it was not used in the new tipper.

Why would you need confirmation that the patent isn't used in this particular device?

It would do a couple of things. It would inform Davis that we have some good detectives posting and using the WXForum, a chance for Davis to come clean and tell us the new tipping tool is step one in a broader effort to improve the VP2 rainfall accuracy with the patent to be used in a future product (highly unlikely Davis would confirm or deny such a thing), and in general keeping the lack of VP2 rainfall accuracy front and center with Davis coming from its customer base--me and others posting in this Forum using the VP2.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: dalecoy on April 28, 2019, 01:16:40 PM
It would be interesting if Davis support would confirm the existence of the patent and that it was not used in the new tipper.

Why would you need confirmation that the patent isn't used in this particular device?

It would do a couple of things. It would inform Davis that we have some good detectives posting and using the WXForum, a chance for Davis to come clean and tell us the new tipping tool is step one in a broader effort to improve the VP2 rainfall accuracy with the patent to be used in a future product (highly unlikely Davis would confirm or deny such a thing), and in general keeping the lack of VP2 rainfall accuracy front and center with Davis coming from its customer base--me and others posting in this Forum using the VP2.

Fair enough.  I don't see where Davis ever implied that the new product used that patent - or that it is more accurate than the previous design.  But emphasizing the need is, of course, a good move.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: Mattk on April 28, 2019, 04:53:09 PM
Just because there is a patent doesn't mean it has anything to do with the new VP2 tipping spoon what so ever
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: drew1021 on April 28, 2019, 09:16:21 PM
So far I've only seen comparisons between the stratus 4" and the VP2. Has anyone done a side by side with an 8" NWS rain gauge?
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: JudinNorman on April 28, 2019, 10:16:49 PM
So far I've only seen comparisons between the stratus 4" and the VP2. Has anyone done a side by side with an 8" NWS rain gauge?

The stratus is not a good gauge for comparison. I've had a few that some showed more than or less that my weather service type.  The 4" rim is to small and the precision when made is not the best. That's why we see some on here reporting more, less or same when comparing Davis to stratus.
So Davis has suckered consumers into the aerocone, and this new style to without any improvement of catch. What a scam
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: drew1021 on April 29, 2019, 07:37:40 AM
So far I've only seen comparisons between the stratus 4" and the VP2. Has anyone done a side by side with an 8" NWS rain gauge?

The stratus is not a good gauge for comparison. I've had a few that some showed more than or less that my weather service type.  The 4" rim is to small and the precision when made is not the best. That's why we see some on here reporting more, less or same when comparing Davis to stratus.
So Davis has suckered consumers into the aerocone, and this new style to without any improvement of catch. What a scam

I'm not finding any side by side testing information. I may call Davis to see if I can get their field testing results of the new spoon assy, if they will even release such information.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: 92merc on April 29, 2019, 09:26:37 AM
So Davis has suckered consumers into the aerocone, and this new style to without any improvement of catch. What a scam
That's not the results I've found.  I live in a high wind environment.  I have a CoCoRahs style gauge and my VP2 mounted on the same pole, same height.  During high wind storms, my VP2 would under report.   As much as .10 of an inch below what my CoCoRahs gauge would show out of an inch total.  Since switching to the AeroCone, my measurements are now within .01 inch of each other.  I don't even bother using my CoCoRahs style guage.  (I don't below to CoCoRahs...)
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: WheatonRon on April 29, 2019, 03:34:13 PM
More results during today’s fairly rainy period (over a 7 hour period that ended at 2:00pm CDT):

Station 1, VP2 old tipper     .29
Station 2, VP2 old tipper.     .67
Station 3, VP2 new tipper.   .68

CoCo gauge         .84

In short, VP2 using new tipper vs. old tipper still doesn’t match accuracy of CoCo gauge. Disappointing results to say the least. My new tipper (station 3) was installed in a 3 year old ISS that has a daytime fan; station 1 is my newest station (less than 1 year old) that has a 24 hour fan; and station 2 is 10 years old and also has a daytime fan. The fans should have no bearing on rainfall. All three VP2 stations and the CoCo gauge are located at approximately the same height off the ground and within 50 feet of each other. Wind was not significant during this 7 hour period. All equipment was cleaned last week of dirt and debris.

In summary, disappointing results—maybe the new patent, if ever used by Davis, will improve these results.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: Mattk on April 29, 2019, 04:09:24 PM
There's not a lot of mention (if any) re checking calibration when installing these new this new tipping spoon?
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: AWL on April 29, 2019, 05:17:22 PM
@WheatonRon, thanks for taking the time to set this up. Which tipper is located the closest to the CoCo gauge? Just curious.

Doug
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: drew1021 on April 29, 2019, 05:32:52 PM
More results during today’s fairly rainy period (over a 7 hour period that ended at 2:00pm CDT):

Station 1, VP2 old tipper     .29
Station 2, VP2 old tipper.     .67
Station 3, VP2 new tipper.   .68

CoCo gauge         .84

In short, VP2 using new tipper vs. old tipper still doesn’t match accuracy of CoCo gauge. Disappointing results to say the least. My new tipper (station 3) was installed in a 3 year old ISS that has a daytime fan; station 1 is my newest station (less than 1 year old) that has a 24 hour fan; and station 2 is 10 years old and also has a daytime fan. The fans should have no bearing on rainfall. All three VP2 stations and the CoCo gauge are located at approximately the same height off the ground and within 50 feet of each other. Wind was not significant during this 7 hour period. All equipment was cleaned last week of dirt and debris.

In summary, disappointing results—maybe the new patent, if ever used by Davis, will improve these results.


Wow, such a difference between the VP2 and the Stratus. Is the Stratus located out in a clearing away from the house?
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: Mattk on April 29, 2019, 06:02:02 PM
Come on people how many of these comparative rain gauges (especially these tipping spoons) have been calibrated? Otherwise all this discussion re comparisons between this and that is nothing more than a waste of space, what's the point?   
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: CW2274 on April 29, 2019, 06:38:32 PM
Come on people how many of these comparative rain gauges (especially these tipping spoons) have been calibrated? Otherwise all this discussion re comparisons between this and that is nothing more than a waste of space, what's the point?
Well, wouldn't one like to think ALL OF THEM. That IS the point of this. Consider more space wasted.... :roll:
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: drew1021 on April 29, 2019, 06:39:46 PM
Come on people how many of these comparative rain gauges (especially these tipping spoons) have been calibrated? Otherwise all this discussion re comparisons between this and that is nothing more than a waste of space, what's the point?

Honestly the only comparisons being made should be between the new Davis tipping spoon assy and either the Stratus gauge or an 8" nws type gauge.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: Mattk on April 29, 2019, 06:41:53 PM
Come on people how many of these comparative rain gauges (especially these tipping spoons) have been calibrated? Otherwise all this discussion re comparisons between this and that is nothing more than a waste of space, what's the point?
Well, wouldn't one like to think ALL OF THEM. That IS the point of this. Consider more space wasted.... :roll:

No my bet would be NONE of them have been actually calibrated, they have been installed straight out of the box. And it certainly is waste of space and a whole of waffle if they have not been actually calibrated.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: Mattk on April 29, 2019, 06:42:49 PM
Come on people how many of these comparative rain gauges (especially these tipping spoons) have been calibrated? Otherwise all this discussion re comparisons between this and that is nothing more than a waste of space, what's the point?

Honestly the only comparisons being made should be between the new Davis tipping spoon assy and either the Stratus gauge or an 8" nws type gauge.

BUT they still need to be calibrated to be meaningful, correct? 
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: CW2274 on April 29, 2019, 06:45:22 PM
Come on people how many of these comparative rain gauges (especially these tipping spoons) have been calibrated? Otherwise all this discussion re comparisons between this and that is nothing more than a waste of space, what's the point?

Honestly the only comparisons being made should be between the new Davis tipping spoon assy and either the Stratus gauge or an 8" nws type gauge.
As I stated in another thread, unless something obvious occurs, I use my RW tipper as my "official" measurement over my Stratus.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: drew1021 on April 29, 2019, 06:47:09 PM
Come on people how many of these comparative rain gauges (especially these tipping spoons) have been calibrated? Otherwise all this discussion re comparisons between this and that is nothing more than a waste of space, what's the point?

Honestly the only comparisons being made should be between the new Davis tipping spoon assy and either the Stratus gauge or an 8" nws type gauge.

BUT they still need to be calibrated to be meaningful, correct?

Until we get a good sample of new uncalibrated spoon assy's we shouldn't be making any adjustments. For all we know they may be calibrated correctly out of the box.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: CW2274 on April 29, 2019, 06:55:16 PM
Come on people how many of these comparative rain gauges (especially these tipping spoons) have been calibrated? Otherwise all this discussion re comparisons between this and that is nothing more than a waste of space, what's the point?
Well, wouldn't one like to think ALL OF THEM. That IS the point of this. Consider more space wasted.... :roll:

No my bet would be NONE of them have been actually calibrated, they have been installed straight out of the box. And it certainly is waste of space and a whole of waffle if they have not been actually calibrated.
Well that would be just plain ass stupid on Davis's part, wouldn't it, especially since they claim an accuracy of 4 percent, not "whatever" percent.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: Mattk on April 29, 2019, 07:21:05 PM
Come on people how many of these comparative rain gauges (especially these tipping spoons) have been calibrated? Otherwise all this discussion re comparisons between this and that is nothing more than a waste of space, what's the point?
Well, wouldn't one like to think ALL OF THEM. That IS the point of this. Consider more space wasted.... :roll:

No my bet would be NONE of them have been actually calibrated, they have been installed straight out of the box. And it certainly is waste of space and a whole of waffle if they have not been actually calibrated.
Well that would be just plain ass stupid on Davis's part, wouldn't it, especially since they claim an accuracy of 4 percent, not "whatever" percent.

Until you can prove what they claim then it's nothing more than a claim. Then again they have made this claim for more years than I can recall and that claim has been proven incorrect more times than I have calibrated gauges over the past 25 years, the original WMII collectors were always very close, anything related to VP2 has been rubbish, typically under reporting by 30% straight of the box, so they can claim what they like, doesn't mean it is right.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: CW2274 on April 29, 2019, 07:38:36 PM
Come on people how many of these comparative rain gauges (especially these tipping spoons) have been calibrated? Otherwise all this discussion re comparisons between this and that is nothing more than a waste of space, what's the point?
Well, wouldn't one like to think ALL OF THEM. That IS the point of this. Consider more space wasted.... :roll:

No my bet would be NONE of them have been actually calibrated, they have been installed straight out of the box. And it certainly is waste of space and a whole of waffle if they have not been actually calibrated.
Well that would be just plain ass stupid on Davis's part, wouldn't it, especially since they claim an accuracy of 4 percent, not "whatever" percent.

Until you can prove what they claim then it's nothing more than a claim.
I'm not posting here to prove a damn thing. As what I assume to be a reputable company that has their product distributed literally all over the world, I expect that their "claim" to be fact until proven differently. If YOU can prove differently, have at it. I'm sure as hell not here to argue about...just seeking answers like everyone else.   
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: WheatonRon on April 29, 2019, 07:55:12 PM
Sorry folks. But after spending $50 to get a new tipper from Davis that included absolutely no installation or other instructions, the last thing I thought about was calibrating it!

To address an earlier question to me, the CoCo gauge is about equidistant from my 3 VP2s. And to repeat, wind was not a factor. We are supposed to get more rain this week so I may move my VP2 with the new tipper inches away from the CoCo gauge. That will really be a test! If the results are still bad, I may ask Mr. Reliable reseller, Ryan Wilhour, for a replacement.

Who knows? Maybe a squirrel left a “treat” in my VP2 with the new tipper after I cleaned it last week.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: Mattk on April 29, 2019, 08:43:18 PM
Come on people how many of these comparative rain gauges (especially these tipping spoons) have been calibrated? Otherwise all this discussion re comparisons between this and that is nothing more than a waste of space, what's the point?
Well, wouldn't one like to think ALL OF THEM. That IS the point of this. Consider more space wasted.... :roll:

No my bet would be NONE of them have been actually calibrated, they have been installed straight out of the box. And it certainly is waste of space and a whole of waffle if they have not been actually calibrated.
Well that would be just plain ass stupid on Davis's part, wouldn't it, especially since they claim an accuracy of 4 percent, not "whatever" percent.

Until you can prove what they claim then it's nothing more than a claim.
I'm not posting here to prove a damn thing. As what I assume to be a reputable company that has their product distributed literally all over the world, I expect that their "claim" to be fact until proven differently. If YOU can prove differently, have at it. I'm sure as hell not here to argue about...just seeking answers like everyone else.

Assume away, reputable company or not doesn't change the question or the fact that any discussion here based on un-calibrated and unproven hardware obviously indicates many have a bit of a misconception about all of this. Davis's claims re rain gauges have been proven time and time again to be unsatisfactory along with the means they use to so call calibrate no make that adjust them in production. All this irrefutable "proof" has been sent to Davis and their distributors over the years but one may as well blow smoke .....     

Until someone comes up with a creditable side by side comparison using calibrated gear then everybody may as well blow smoke ......
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: CW2274 on April 29, 2019, 08:54:42 PM
Come on people how many of these comparative rain gauges (especially these tipping spoons) have been calibrated? Otherwise all this discussion re comparisons between this and that is nothing more than a waste of space, what's the point?
Well, wouldn't one like to think ALL OF THEM. That IS the point of this. Consider more space wasted.... :roll:

No my bet would be NONE of them have been actually calibrated, they have been installed straight out of the box. And it certainly is waste of space and a whole of waffle if they have not been actually calibrated.
Well that would be just plain ass stupid on Davis's part, wouldn't it, especially since they claim an accuracy of 4 percent, not "whatever" percent.

Until you can prove what they claim then it's nothing more than a claim.
I'm not posting here to prove a damn thing. As what I assume to be a reputable company that has their product distributed literally all over the world, I expect that their "claim" to be fact until proven differently. If YOU can prove differently, have at it. I'm sure as hell not here to argue about...just seeking answers like everyone else.
All this irrefutable "proof" has been sent to Davis and their distributors over the years
Oh? Please, enlighten us. I guarantee you'll have everyone's attention. 
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: WheatonRon on April 29, 2019, 08:59:14 PM
From a recent reseller news announcement from Davis.

The tipping spoon is an incremental improvement for both accuracy and durability of the Vantage Pro2 rain collector. We will continue to phase in the tipping spoon for all of our Vantage Pro2 products over the next few months. Of course, the tipping spoon assembly is 100% backward compatible with previous versions of Vantage Pro2 rain collectors. Please note that all new Vantage Pro2 rain collectors with a tipping spoon will be factory calibrated to either 0.01” or 0.2 mm per tip and will no longer include an adapter that allows owners to convert from inches to millimeters or vice versa. 
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: Mattk on April 29, 2019, 09:03:54 PM
Come on people how many of these comparative rain gauges (especially these tipping spoons) have been calibrated? Otherwise all this discussion re comparisons between this and that is nothing more than a waste of space, what's the point?
Well, wouldn't one like to think ALL OF THEM. That IS the point of this. Consider more space wasted.... :roll:

No my bet would be NONE of them have been actually calibrated, they have been installed straight out of the box. And it certainly is waste of space and a whole of waffle if they have not been actually calibrated.
Well that would be just plain ass stupid on Davis's part, wouldn't it, especially since they claim an accuracy of 4 percent, not "whatever" percent.

Until you can prove what they claim then it's nothing more than a claim.
I'm not posting here to prove a damn thing. As what I assume to be a reputable company that has their product distributed literally all over the world, I expect that their "claim" to be fact until proven differently. If YOU can prove differently, have at it. I'm sure as hell not here to argue about...just seeking answers like everyone else.
All this irrefutable "proof" has been sent to Davis and their distributors over the years
Oh? Please, enlighten us. I guarantee you'll have everyone's attention.

I won't be enlightening you or anybody else anything in this regard, I don't need to make excuses for any misunderstanding or misconception anybody else has in regard understanding the equipment they are using.

But my comment remains the same until users comparing these rain gauges can justify all this wishy washy comparison talk they are going on with then what's the point? Totally meaningless for any factual or implied outcome.

Like 1 poster stated, they weren't going to spend 140 bucks to prove a 45 buck tipping spoon and in that comment lies the whole misguided context of so called weather enthusiasts who simply take things for granted.     
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: drew1021 on April 29, 2019, 09:20:30 PM
That was me who said that and I can assure you I don't take this hobby for granted. I do live on a fixed budget though.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: galfert on April 29, 2019, 09:30:08 PM
In my best Cuba Gooding Jr imitation voice: "...show me the money DATA..."

In my best Jack Nicholson imitation voice, "you can't handle the truth DATA!    :grin:
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: CW2274 on April 29, 2019, 09:51:35 PM
Come on people how many of these comparative rain gauges (especially these tipping spoons) have been calibrated? Otherwise all this discussion re comparisons between this and that is nothing more than a waste of space, what's the point?
Well, wouldn't one like to think ALL OF THEM. That IS the point of this. Consider more space wasted.... :roll:

No my bet would be NONE of them have been actually calibrated, they have been installed straight out of the box. And it certainly is waste of space and a whole of waffle if they have not been actually calibrated.
Well that would be just plain ass stupid on Davis's part, wouldn't it, especially since they claim an accuracy of 4 percent, not "whatever" percent.

Until you can prove what they claim then it's nothing more than a claim.
I'm not posting here to prove a damn thing. As what I assume to be a reputable company that has their product distributed literally all over the world, I expect that their "claim" to be fact until proven differently. If YOU can prove differently, have at it. I'm sure as hell not here to argue about...just seeking answers like everyone else.
All this irrefutable "proof" has been sent to Davis and their distributors over the years
Oh? Please, enlighten us. I guarantee you'll have everyone's attention.
I won't be enlightening you or anybody else anything in this regard
Whatta surprise. You throw around the word 'proof', yet you supply none. You could be completely correct in your assumption that Davis is shanghaiing the whole PWS world, but I think you'd be better off (as well as the forum) by not making claims you can't back up, folks here can figure it out for themselves without the BS.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: openvista on April 29, 2019, 11:27:25 PM
Davis or any other manufacturer can print anything they want in their specs. As Mattk said, those are nothing more than unproven claims until independent, controlled tests are conducted. It's the old "caveat emptor" (buyer beware).

One expert study, by Christopher Burt, gave the VP2 tipping bucket a "poor" rating. See: http://wiki.meteoclimatic.net/es/images/0/0c/Davis_VP2_Review.pdf (http://wiki.meteoclimatic.net/es/images/0/0c/Davis_VP2_Review.pdf). I've run across other critical reviews, but, unfortunately, failed to save them for easy access. Honestly, I didn't think the issue was in question.

See also the numerous discussion threads on this forum down through the years including side-by-side comparisons. Everything I've read suggests it doesn't perform *consistently*. That's been my experience too, although most of the time it's fairly close. 

The introduction of the tipping spoon appears to be Davis' implicit admission that the current tipping bucket design needed to be scrapped to achieve even an "incremental" improvement. That, to me, says a lot.

From initial reports, the tipping spoon appears to be better than its predecessor. But my requirements before purchase are 1) they've worked out any initial kinks and 2) it's properly documented with instructions. I like finished products.

Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: SnowHiker on April 29, 2019, 11:51:58 PM
Calibrated or not, the comparisons are useful.

Consistency is the key.  If the readings are consistently a certain percentage high or low, then they could be considered accurate pending calibration.  If the readings are all over the place then they are inaccurate.

So people posting their findings compared to a reliable gauge, the original VP gauge, and at different rain rates are helpful for comparison whether precisely calibrated or not.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: galfert on April 30, 2019, 05:57:20 AM
In my best Cuba Gooding Jr imitation voice: "...show me the money DATA..."

In my best Jack Nicholson imitation voice, "you can't handle the truth DATA!    :grin:
Oh, I'm sure that some of us CAN 'handle' the DATA...some because they're aware to NOT handle the 'hand grenade PIN" and others because they are aware of DATA analyses techniques and methods (me)...and others (not me) are true meteorologists.

I know and it wasn't directed at you. I just wanted to follow up with a jest.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: galfert on April 30, 2019, 06:11:59 AM
Calibrated or not, the comparisons are useful.

Consistency is the key.  If the readings are consistently a certain percentage high or low, then they could be considered accurate pending calibration.  If the readings are all over the place then they are inaccurate.

So people posting their findings compared to a reliable gauge, the original VP gauge, and at different rain rates are helpful for comparison whether precisely calibrated or not.
^^^ This.....makes a whole lot of sense.

Plus if you take WheatonRon's statement about Davis calibrating every gauge to 0.01 in and 0.2 mm and consider that any company that sells a measurement device is expected to ship their product already set to perform or it would create a great deal of customer satisfaction complaints, I just makes sense.

There is a difference between calibrated and NIST certified. Certainly this does not qualify for something that needs NIST certification. If Davis says that it ships calibrated well then I believe them, as I would expect them to have done regardless.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: Mattk on April 30, 2019, 06:15:40 AM
Oh no I can feel a precision v accuracy headache coming on  :lol:
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: galfert on April 30, 2019, 06:27:44 AM
Oh no I can feel a precision v accuracy headache coming on  :lol:

Here is your Advil or Tylenol:

 [ You are not allowed to view attachments ]

Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: CW2274 on April 30, 2019, 03:18:33 PM
Oh no I can feel a precision v accuracy headache coming on  :lol:
No kidding....the statement makes zero sense.
 
"Please note that all new Vantage Pro2 rain collectors with a tipping spoon will be factory calibrated to either 0.01” or 0.2 mm per tip"

Did someone at Davis really say that??
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: Mattk on April 30, 2019, 04:21:52 PM
Oh no I can feel a precision v accuracy headache coming on  :lol:
No kidding....the statement makes zero sense.
 
"Please note that all new Vantage Pro2 rain collectors with a tipping spoon will be factory calibrated to either 0.01” or 0.2 mm per tip"

Did someone at Davis really say that??

So called consistency being off is not considered accurate. You have obviously not been reading the comments then?

And they have said that for the past 20 years (factory calibrated) and with hindsight we now know they were not, well they might have thought they factory calibrated them but  actually in the real world we knew then they were not but some believed the PR blurb rather than the facts. 
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: WheatonRon on April 30, 2019, 05:12:42 PM
Oh no I can feel a precision v accuracy headache coming on  :lol:
No kidding....the statement makes zero sense.
 
"Please note that all new Vantage Pro2 rain collectors with a tipping spoon will be factory calibrated to either 0.01” or 0.2 mm per tip"

Did someone at Davis really say that??

Yes, but they are probably talking about two separate gauges— one that measures in inches the other in millimeters. They sell both.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: WheatonRon on April 30, 2019, 05:31:41 PM
More results during today’s fairly rainy period (over a 7 hour period that ended at 2:00pm CDT):

Station 1, VP2 old tipper     .29 [.53]
Station 2, VP2 old tipper.     .67 [.35]
Station 3, VP2 new tipper.   .68  [.79]

CoCo gauge         .84 [.73]

In short, VP2 using new tipper vs. old tipper still doesn’t match accuracy of CoCo gauge. Disappointing results to say the least. My new tipper (station 3) was installed in a 3 year old ISS that has a daytime fan; station 1 is my newest station (less than 1 year old) that has a 24 hour fan; and station 2 is 10 years old and also has a daytime fan. The fans should have no bearing on rainfall. All three VP2 stations and the CoCo gauge are located at approximately the same height off the ground and within 50 feet of each other. Wind was not significant during this 7 hour period. All equipment was cleaned last week of dirt and debris.

In summary, disappointing results—maybe the new patent, if ever used by Davis, will improve these results.

We had a new rain event (8 hours) today.  The measurements I got today are posted adjacent to my prior numbers quoted above, except the latest ones are noted in brackets []. The new tipper VP2 (station 3) was moved to be right next to the CoCo gauge, probably less than 10 inches away. This time it over reported what the CoCo gauge did but was considerably closer to the VP2s that have the old tipper. While I wasn’t home the entire time, the rain I saw was steady but not a downpour with minimal wind.

In short, a lot a variability to say the least. More rain in the next few days and I will post additional updates to help clarify (muddy) the waters, pun intended.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: CW2274 on April 30, 2019, 06:00:26 PM
Oh no I can feel a precision v accuracy headache coming on  :lol:
No kidding....the statement makes zero sense.
 
"Please note that all new Vantage Pro2 rain collectors with a tipping spoon will be factory calibrated to either 0.01” or 0.2 mm per tip"

Did someone at Davis really say that??

So called consistency being off is not considered accurate. You have obviously not been reading the comments then?

And they have said that for the past 20 years (factory calibrated) and with hindsight we now know they were not, well they might have thought they factory calibrated them but  actually in the real world we knew then they were not but some believed the PR blurb rather than the facts.
I have no idea what you're talking about. If you think I'm arguing with you, I'm not, I'm agreeing (or so I thought) that 0.01" is not a calibration number, but a resolution or precision number. Whatever % is an accuracy number. As far as them saying that for 20 years, guess I missed it. :roll:
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: Mattk on April 30, 2019, 07:09:26 PM
Oh no I can feel a precision v accuracy headache coming on  :lol:
No kidding....the statement makes zero sense.
 
"Please note that all new Vantage Pro2 rain collectors with a tipping spoon will be factory calibrated to either 0.01” or 0.2 mm per tip"

Did someone at Davis really say that??

So called consistency being off is not considered accurate. You have obviously not been reading the comments then?

And they have said that for the past 20 years (factory calibrated) and with hindsight we now know they were not, well they might have thought they factory calibrated them but  actually in the real world we knew then they were not but some believed the PR blurb rather than the facts.
I have no idea what you're talking about. If you think I'm arguing with you, I'm not, I'm agreeing (or so I thought) that 0.01" is not a calibration number, but a resolution or precision number. Whatever % is an accuracy number. As far as them saying that for 20 years, guess I missed it. :roll:

Quote
...Please note that all new Vantage Pro2 rain collectors with a tipping spoon will be factory calibrated to either 0.01” or 0.2 mm per tip...

Your words, not mine, so it's not a factory calibration now it is some form of resolution or precision number  #-o So they have either factory calibrated the tipping spoons or they haven't, can't have it both ways.

And if it's not a calibration then all the comparisons are a waste of time until these tipping spoons have been calibrated. There can be no argument about this?   
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: CW2274 on April 30, 2019, 07:42:01 PM
Oh no I can feel a precision v accuracy headache coming on  :lol:
No kidding....the statement makes zero sense.
 
"Please note that all new Vantage Pro2 rain collectors with a tipping spoon will be factory calibrated to either 0.01” or 0.2 mm per tip"

Did someone at Davis really say that??

So called consistency being off is not considered accurate. You have obviously not been reading the comments then?

And they have said that for the past 20 years (factory calibrated) and with hindsight we now know they were not, well they might have thought they factory calibrated them but  actually in the real world we knew then they were not but some believed the PR blurb rather than the facts.
I have no idea what you're talking about. If you think I'm arguing with you, I'm not, I'm agreeing (or so I thought) that 0.01" is not a calibration number, but a resolution or precision number. Whatever % is an accuracy number. As far as them saying that for 20 years, guess I missed it. :roll:

Quote
...Please note that all new Vantage Pro2 rain collectors with a tipping spoon will be factory calibrated to either 0.01” or 0.2 mm per tip...

Your words, not mine, so it's not a factory calibration now it is some form of resolution or precision number  #-o So they have either factory calibrated the tipping spoons or they haven't, can't have it both ways.

And if it's not a calibration then all the comparisons are a waste of time until these tipping spoons have been calibrated. There can be no argument about this?
JC, talking to you is like talking to a brick wall. No they're NOT my words, they came from Ron above, who stated they came directly from Davis. All I'm saying is that 0.01" is NOT an accuracy number, it's the resolution that the rain is measured to. A percentage would be an accuracy number, which the statement DOES NOT include. The statement is very poorly worded, it should have said what percentage it's accurate to, which it doesn't, then stated at what resolution, which it does.
I guess this is all moot anyway as Davis is obviously lying through their teeth, so who cares...... :roll:
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: Mattk on April 30, 2019, 09:11:13 PM
Oh no I can feel a precision v accuracy headache coming on  :lol:
No kidding....the statement makes zero sense.
 
"Please note that all new Vantage Pro2 rain collectors with a tipping spoon will be factory calibrated to either 0.01” or 0.2 mm per tip"

Did someone at Davis really say that??

So called consistency being off is not considered accurate. You have obviously not been reading the comments then?

And they have said that for the past 20 years (factory calibrated) and with hindsight we now know they were not, well they might have thought they factory calibrated them but  actually in the real world we knew then they were not but some believed the PR blurb rather than the facts.
I have no idea what you're talking about. If you think I'm arguing with you, I'm not, I'm agreeing (or so I thought) that 0.01" is not a calibration number, but a resolution or precision number. Whatever % is an accuracy number. As far as them saying that for 20 years, guess I missed it. :roll:

Quote
...Please note that all new Vantage Pro2 rain collectors with a tipping spoon will be factory calibrated to either 0.01” or 0.2 mm per tip...

Your words, not mine, so it's not a factory calibration now it is some form of resolution or precision number  #-o So they have either factory calibrated the tipping spoons or they haven't, can't have it both ways.

And if it's not a calibration then all the comparisons are a waste of time until these tipping spoons have been calibrated. There can be no argument about this?
JC, talking to you is like talking to a brick wall. No they're NOT my words, they came from Ron above, who stated they came directly from Davis. All I'm saying is that 0.01" is NOT an accuracy number, it's the resolution that the rain is measured to. A percentage would be an accuracy number, which the statement DOES NOT include. The statement is very poorly worded, it should have said what percentage it's accurate to, which it doesn't, then stated at what resolution, which it does.
I guess this is all moot anyway as Davis is obviously lying through their teeth, so who cares...... :roll:

And obviously not many understand calibration in any meaningful or useful way but hey just keep on trucking and keep those excuses coming, it appears not many understand what Davis state at all 
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: SnowHiker on April 30, 2019, 11:37:18 PM

We had a new rain event (8 hours) today.  The measurements I got today are posted adjacent to my prior numbers quoted above, except the latest ones are noted in brackets []. The new tipper VP2 (station 3) was moved to be right next to the CoCo gauge, probably less than 10 inches away. This time it over reported what the CoCo gauge did but was considerably closer to the VP2s that have the old tipper. While I wasn’t home the entire time, the rain I saw was steady but not a downpour with minimal wind.

In short, a lot a variability to say the least. More rain in the next few days and I will post additional updates to help clarify (muddy) the waters, pun intended.
Thanks for the updates.  Your experience and the experiences of others are useful for those who may be interested in "upgrading". 

Hopefully the usefulness of this thread doesn't get buried in the quibbling over the meaning of words, misunderstandings of how they're used, and other nonsense.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: CW2274 on May 01, 2019, 12:07:43 AM

We had a new rain event (8 hours) today.  The measurements I got today are posted adjacent to my prior numbers quoted above, except the latest ones are noted in brackets []. The new tipper VP2 (station 3) was moved to be right next to the CoCo gauge, probably less than 10 inches away. This time it over reported what the CoCo gauge did but was considerably closer to the VP2s that have the old tipper. While I wasn’t home the entire time, the rain I saw was steady but not a downpour with minimal wind.

In short, a lot a variability to say the least. More rain in the next few days and I will post additional updates to help clarify (muddy) the waters, pun intended.

Hopefully the usefulness of this thread doesn't get buried in the quibbling over the meaning of words, misunderstandings of how they're used, and other nonsense.
I have absolutely no proof one way or another, but I don't consider it nonsensical that the talk here is that Davis is basically being accused of fraud by claiming that their rain tipping buckets are indeed calibrated to published spec, if at all.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: WheatonRon on May 01, 2019, 09:03:17 AM
More results during today’s fairly rainy period (over a 7 hour period that ended at 2:00pm CDT):

Station 1, VP2 old tipper     .29 [.53]  {1.64}  FW3075
Station 2, VP2 old tipper.     .67 [.35]  {1.26}  FW4350
Station 3, VP2 new tipper.   .68  [.79]  {2.60}  CW5020

CoCo gauge         .84 [.73]  {2.48}

In short, VP2 using new tipper vs. old tipper still doesn’t match accuracy of CoCo gauge. Disappointing results to say the least. My new tipper (station 3) was installed in a 3 year old ISS that has a daytime fan; station 1 is my newest station (less than 1 year old) that has a 24 hour fan; and station 2 is 10 years old and also has a daytime fan. The fans should have no bearing on rainfall. All three VP2 stations and the CoCo gauge are located at approximately the same height off the ground and within 50 feet of each other. Wind was not significant during this 7 hour period. All equipment was cleaned last week of dirt and debris.

In summary, disappointing results—maybe the new patent, if ever used by Davis, will improve these results.

We had a new rain event (8 hours) today.  The measurements I got today are posted adjacent to my prior numbers quoted above, except the latest ones are noted in brackets []. The new tipper VP2 (station 3) was moved to be right next to the CoCo gauge, probably less than 10 inches away. This time it over reported what the CoCo gauge did but was considerably closer to the VP2s that have the old tipper. While I wasn’t home the entire time, the rain I saw was steady but not a downpour with minimal wind.

In short, a lot a variability to say the least. More rain in the next few days and I will post additional updates to help clarify (muddy) the waters, pun intended.

More rain. For the 24 hours ended 7am on May 1 (includes the 8 hour period previously posted), the new numbers are noted in squiggly brackets, that is—{ and }. It appears the new spoon tipper is achieving better accuracy during heavy rains, which is good.  My anemometer (common to all three VP2s) never exceeded a gust of 12 mph and for the most part winds apparently were not a factor.

Based on this storm, it appears the new spoon tipper achieves better accuracy in heavy rains than the old tipper. Worth another $50? Maybe.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: galfert on May 01, 2019, 10:27:04 AM
All this testing is great. I think most results coming in are positive. And the question we all want to know is how much better is it. That is proving to be a bit difficult to answer because of ambiguity of Davis calibration definition, and perhaps it is too soon with not enough comparisons, and most importantly Davis has not released documentation nor product specifications.

That said though, wouldn't you think that Davis came out with this new gauge for a good reason? I'm sure Davis tested and came out with this new rain gauge to solve some problems. It would need to be the same or better performing than the old version. The same performance would still make sense if it affected some manufacturing cost savings, or manufacturing assembly savings, or product longevity issue. Certainly I don't think it would make any sense for Davis to have put out an inferior performing replacement part as that would not go over well and it would hurt them in many ways. So for anyone experiencing inferior performance results perhaps your tests are not the best that they could be. Or maybe your particular rain event was not the typical type of rain event that Davis aimed for in improving. Maybe you just need to do more testing to get rid of outliers.

What a shocker it would be if Davis releases the specifications and they match exactly to the old version  :shock:  eeek!
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: johnd on May 01, 2019, 12:31:48 PM
Personally, I wouldn't expect the specification to change with the tipping spoon gauge. The problem with the existing gauges has never been with the specification but that too many examples do not seem to meet the specifications.

And then the underlying problem is that it's very difficult to get a good fix on the accuracy of an individual gauge, which can only really be assessed - at least to scientific standards - at a site with good exposure, with due care to correct mounting of the gauge, a high quality reference gauge read reliably and readings taken over at least a month to account for variable rain rates and amounts, different wind strengths etc. Very few users have the facilities and dedication to achieve this, plus all too often reports of accuracy/inaccuracy are confounded by issues of mounting height, exposure, lack of a good reference gauge, failure to make the correct increment setting in console or software etc etc. In fact the only good report of VP2 accuracy I've ever seen was Stephen Burt's. Maybe others exist - it would be good to get some additional references.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: drew1021 on May 01, 2019, 01:26:21 PM
I spoke with a guy at Davis a few days ago and he informed me that the spoon assy's were laser calibrated to ensure the highest accuracy. I asked for specs on accuracy and was told that there were none published as of yet. I also asked about field testing and was told that there testing was done between 4" gauge and the new spoon assy. I would have thought that they would use 8" gauges for field testing. I don't trust what he said about the reference gauges used. That's all I have for now. Come on rain!
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: CW2274 on May 01, 2019, 02:46:25 PM
Personally, I wouldn't expect the specification to change with the tipping spoon gauge.
I'm getting the same impression. However, the Davis pub sent to me last night, straight from the horse's mouth, "The tipping spoon is an incremental improvement for both accuracy and durability". Really? If so, what's the big secret? How much or what is the "incremental improvement." Perhaps as Ron stated, it handles the heavier events better. All I know is that if something is improved, that's generally not kept hush-hush, especially if they expect people to pony up for the new and "improved" version.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: johnd on May 01, 2019, 03:48:50 PM
If so, what's the big secret?

http://pronamic.com/products/tipping-bucket-technology (http://pronamic.com/products/tipping-bucket-technology) maybe gives some clues, though it is a different design. Most of it is pretty obvious and what you'd have guessed anyway, eg there's a fixed force acting as the counterbalance which is going to remain constant, just one single screw needed for calibration, no risk of imbalance developing between two buckets etc etc

Also re 'durability' AIUI the reed switch is now a cartridge type and user replaceable.

Much of the rest is just marketing fluff and I really wouldn't read too much into it. But if the tipping spoon can consistently achieve the existing Davis rain gauge specification then that would be a real step forwards.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: CW2274 on May 01, 2019, 03:58:26 PM
If so, what's the big secret?
But if the tipping spoon can consistently achieve the existing Davis rain gauge specification then that would be a real step forwards.
And I'm betting that's exactly what they're hanging their hat on.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: Mattk on May 01, 2019, 04:44:50 PM
.... I spoke with a guy at Davis a few days ago and he informed me that the spoon assy's were laser calibrated to ensure the highest accuracy....

It does sound very highly technical doesn't it when the term laser calibrated is used, but what do they actually mean? Ask for an explanation and see how far you get :) Knowing how the "silver" tipping bucket was so called "laser calibrated" then they must be running this one on the help desk again
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: Mattk on May 01, 2019, 05:00:20 PM
.... And the question we all want to know is how much better is it. That is proving to be a bit difficult to answer because of ambiguity of Davis calibration definition, and perhaps it is too soon with not enough comparisons, and most importantly Davis has not released documentation nor product specifications.

Enough has probably been said about Davis calibration but all Davis can do is set a nominal adjustment and that adjustment was typically all very close but was just a long way off and it was always lower and again this had a bit to do with their so called "laser calibration" of the then new silver buckets which weren't within a bulls roar of the older, higher set tipping bucket which had totally different dynamics to the useless silver buckets.

Davis has had quite some experience now with the Vue and apart from some quirky things with the Vue spoon and for the size of the Vue it probably runs rings around the current VP2 gauge so one would be expecting improvement?   

Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: WheatonRon on May 02, 2019, 12:30:56 PM
Another steady rain event for four hours this morning with very little wind—a perfect test so to speak. I moved another one of my VP2s next to the CoCo gauge with interesting results as follows:

CoCo gauge  .47
VP2 with new tipper located inches away from CoCo gauge .46
VP2 with old tipper located inches away from CoCo gauge  .36
VP2 with old tipper located about 50 feet away .41

Take aways. New tipper did very well when located next to CoCo gauge. Old tipper, even when located next to CoCo gauge showed mixed results. More testing is necessary but new spoon tipper shows promise—IF future results mirror these results.

Since April 27, 2019, I have recorded 5.75 inches of precipitation (CoCo measured) including 5 inches of heavy snow on April 27 at my suburban Chicago house! Folks, that is a lot of precipitation—but nearby Mallards are happy!
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: drew1021 on May 05, 2019, 07:03:29 AM
So I go out to check my stratus gauge after an overnight light to moderate rain and right away I notice a -.03 discrepancy between the VP2 and the stratus. The VP2 being the lower of the two and the stratus showing.19.  Scratching my head I decided to remove the aero cone and check for obstructions. And what do I find, a tiny oak tree seed pod lodged in the bottom of the funnels hole. And yes I have the plastic filter installed. Lesson learned, be sure to check the cone for any obstructions before a rain event. We are expecting more rain throughout the day so hopefully I can report some more reliable results later on.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: Mattk on May 05, 2019, 06:21:20 PM
One can have all the new beaut flash bang WiFi multi-app wizardry but if the data-in is craped then the data-out is craped and it's not like this rain cone tipper blockage is something new, it has been an inherent flaw in the design since day 1 and no amount of silly debris or clip in grate things will prevent this, the birds and the twigs win every time without some simple re-engineering .

Maybe the tipping spoon will reduce some of the twig issue but the bird poop is another issue   
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: Gretnawx on May 06, 2019, 10:19:14 AM
One can have all the new beaut flash bang WiFi multi-app wizardry but if the data-in is craped then the data-out is craped and it's not like this rain cone tipper blockage is something new, it has been an inherent flaw in the design since day 1 and no amount of silly debris or clip in grate things will prevent this, the birds and the twigs win every time without some simple re-engineering .

Maybe the tipping spoon will reduce some of the twig issue but the bird poop is another issue

I have not had bird droppings in my rain cone since using the bird spikes Davis came up with several years ago.  They have been standard on all rain cones for probably five years, have you tried them? 
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: Gretnawx on May 06, 2019, 10:34:58 AM
I've had the single spoon gauge installed for about a month and am pleased with it.  It has been within +/-.01" of my 8" NWS Coop gauge for each of the 10 rain events  since installation (ranging from .01" to .68"). We've had no really heavy rains to compare as yet.  Did not see consistency like that with the two-spoon tipper which typically read lower than the NWS gauge by several hundredths despite repeated attempts to calibrate it higher.   
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: drew1021 on May 06, 2019, 11:13:25 AM
I've had the single spoon gauge installed for about a month and am pleased with it.  It has been within +/-.01" of my 8" NWS Coop gauge for each of the 10 rain events  since installation (ranging from .01" to .68"). We've had no really heavy rains to compare as yet.  Did not see consistency like that with the two-spoon tipper which typically read lower than the NWS gauge by several hundredths despite repeated attempts to calibrate it higher.

Glad to hear you've had good results with your 8" gauge. Just the kind of information I've been looking for. Have you done any comparisons between the 8" and the 4" stratus gauge?
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: Gretnawx on May 06, 2019, 06:35:22 PM
I've had the single spoon gauge installed for about a month and am pleased with it.  It has been within +/-.01" of my 8" NWS Coop gauge for each of the 10 rain events  since installation (ranging from .01" to .68"). We've had no really heavy rains to compare as yet.  Did not see consistency like that with the two-spoon tipper which typically read lower than the NWS gauge by several hundredths despite repeated attempts to calibrate it higher.

Glad to hear you've had good results with your 8" gauge. Just the kind of information I've been looking for. Have you done any comparisons between the 8" and the 4" stratus gauge?

I had a 4" gauge several years ago and it compared closely to 8" NWS gauge except in high winds when it read a little lower than the 8" gauge. Now I just have the VP2 single spoon and NWS gauges as shown in attached picture. 
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: drew1021 on May 07, 2019, 06:57:08 AM
I've had the single spoon gauge installed for about a month and am pleased with it.  It has been within +/-.01" of my 8" NWS Coop gauge for each of the 10 rain events  since installation (ranging from .01" to .68"). We've had no really heavy rains to compare as yet.  Did not see consistency like that with the two-spoon tipper which typically read lower than the NWS gauge by several hundredths despite repeated attempts to calibrate it higher.

Glad to hear you've had good results with your 8" gauge. Just the kind of information I've been looking for. Have you done any comparisons between the 8" and the 4" stratus gauge?

I had a 4" gauge several years ago and it compared closely to 8" NWS gauge except in high winds when it read a little lower than the 8" gauge. Now I just have the VP2 single spoon and NWS gauges as shown in attached picture.

Nice setup. Have you ever thought about installing a windscreen around your 8" coop gauge?
The winds have got to be a factor out there in Nebraska.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: WheatonRon on May 07, 2019, 08:51:29 AM
Another rain event during the last 24 hours ending 7 am CDT—mostly since midnight with very little wind.

CoCo gauge  .79
VP2 with new tipper located inches away from CoCo gauge .81
VP2 with old tipper located inches away from CoCo gauge  .81
VP2 with old tipper located about 50 feet away .76

Very acceptable results and something I am not used to.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: drew1021 on May 08, 2019, 07:41:14 AM
So here's my tale of two rain gauges. We had a series of storms go through last night dumping a total of >1".  The results were very disappointing.

VP2.    1.31
Stratus.     1.15

As mentioned previously, both gauges are level and 6" apart.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: galfert on May 08, 2019, 07:51:35 AM
Has anyone ever put two Stratus gauge side by side and seen if rainfall is really always that symmetric? What is the average deviation?
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: racer3 on May 08, 2019, 08:24:22 AM
Has anyone ever put two Stratus gauge side by side and seen if rainfall is really always that symmetric? What is the average deviation?

Great idea. That would be very interesting.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: jerryg on May 08, 2019, 12:03:58 PM
I compared two of the gauges some time back when i first got my Stratus gauge  and joined cocorahs, the weather service sent me a dept. of commerce gauge which is the same except it has an aluminum mount system. I had them side by side for some time and never saw any difference between the two readings. Then i got a Novalynx 8 inch gauge and compared it to the 4 inch gauge side by side. After several months and many rain events i never saw more than a .01 difference between the two and being as how all the readings are by eye it is really spot on for the 4 inch gauge. I read they compared the 4 inch to nws gauges over a long period of time and the 4 inch fared real well against the 8 inch gauges and that is why it is the standard for home use.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: johnd on May 08, 2019, 12:08:59 PM
isn't this one of the main references re CoCoRaHS:

https://www.cocorahs.org/media/docs/AMS_NJD_GaugeComparison_AppldClimate_2-2.pdf (https://www.cocorahs.org/media/docs/AMS_NJD_GaugeComparison_AppldClimate_2-2.pdf)
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: jerryg on May 08, 2019, 12:53:38 PM
Yeah that is the one, my side by side was for a short period of time compared to this and we seldom get any kind of snow are hail down here so just rain and wind at times. I still have the 8 inch out and look at it from time to time for comparison but just never have seen any real difference to pick one over the other. I guess i need to run it during one of our tropical events and see what a 100 mph wind difference i get between the two  :grin:
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: jerryg on May 08, 2019, 01:30:31 PM
This makes me wonder about how wind effects the readings, during hurricane Harvey i got outside to check the gauge in between squalls and lower winds 40 to 50 mph and i had 9.42 inches in it, now i had some sustained winds of 75 mph and gusting over a 100 mph during the height of the storm and the rain was horizontal to the ground. Would it be safe to say the gauge would under catch the rain amount because of the wind blowing so hard over the top of the gauge that it could suck the rain out of the gauge? It's hard to believe any measurement is accurate in a cat 4 storm, sort of makes its own rules. :shock:
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: drew1021 on May 08, 2019, 03:10:57 PM
This whole conversation has got me wondering if there truly is such variation over a few feet.
So I've decided to purchase another stratus gauge and mount it on a 4x4 beveled post about 2 feet off the ground and monitor it over the summer months. Heck, I might even get a windscreen for it. Should be interesting ;)
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: jerryg on May 08, 2019, 06:21:08 PM
Ok you guys drug me back in to running some tests :lol:. We are in a period of high rainfall the next few days so i cleaned out the Novalynx 8 inch gauge and leveled it next to the cocorahs gauge. I took my spare 4 inch gauge and mounted about a 100 feet from them in a different part of the property. Now will see how the separation plays out the next few days with 6 to 8 inches of rain possible.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: CW2274 on May 08, 2019, 06:29:44 PM
Ok you guys drug me back in to running some tests :lol:. We are in a period of high rainfall the next few days so i cleaned out the Novalynx 8 inch gauge
Excellent, you're apparently going to get plenty of data to work with. By 'cleaning out' the Nova, does that mean you weren't even using it? If so, curious why?
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: jerryg on May 08, 2019, 07:48:00 PM
Well it is a matter of extreme laziness  :lol:, my main way of viewing the rainfall is of course the commercial tb gauge which is pretty accurate and then i am forced to get out of my chair and check the cocorahs for my report, lots of effort for that  :lol:, then i would check the 8 incher for comparing and i just got lazy about it because i had to use a calibrated stick to check the amount in the cup if it was less than half an inch but it was a really major chore when the rainfall went over a half inch and i had to dump the cup and manually lift and pour the overflow into the cup for measurement and depending on how much rain i got i might have to do it several times, and i decided that's too much work other than checking how the other gauges were comparing  :lol:. i hadn't emptied it in a while so i needed to dump it out and wipe it clean. I much prefer a good reading tb so i can check it from my recliner  :grin:.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: CW2274 on May 08, 2019, 08:08:49 PM
Well it is a matter of extreme laziness 
:lol: Oh! I thought it had an counter like the Rainwise 111 does. Thanks for your extreme honesty.... and testing, as usual! [tup]
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: jerryg on May 08, 2019, 08:14:55 PM
This is the one i have https://novalynx.com/manuals/260-2520-manual.pdf
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: CW2274 on May 08, 2019, 08:40:11 PM
This is the one i have https://novalynx.com/manuals/260-2520-manual.pdf
Yep, mine would be collecting dust too. Let kids get out there and "stick the stick".
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: WheatonRon on May 09, 2019, 09:09:53 AM
Another rain event for the 24 hours ended 7am CDT on May 9. Wind was not much of a factor, if any.

CoCo gauge  1.39
VP2 with new tipper located inches away from CoCo gauge 1.43
VP2 with old tipper located inches away from CoCo gauge  1.33
VP2 with old tipper located about 50 feet away 1.17

Being close to the CoCo gauge really helps consistency, which I guess it should! New tipper does not make much of a difference.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: drew1021 on May 09, 2019, 12:18:43 PM
Another rain event for the 24 hours ended 7am CDT on May 9. Wind was not much of a factor, if any.

CoCo gauge  1.39
VP2 with new tipper located inches away from CoCo gauge 1.43
VP2 with old tipper located inches away from CoCo gauge  1.33
VP2 with old tipper located about 50 feet away 1.17

Being close to the CoCo gauge really helps consistency, which I guess it should! New tipper does not make much of a difference.

Seems like a trend the new spoon assy has of slightly over reporting totals. I'm waiting for a moderate rainfall with little wind to see the results however I've got a sneaky suspicion the results are going to be similar to yours. After talking to Davis I think I'll hold off on attempting to calibrate.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: jerryg on May 10, 2019, 12:35:10 PM
Well got a good rain last night,some periods of high wind and lightning. Now the cocorah caught 1.20 and the spare 4 inch about a hundred feet away got 1.15, the 8 inch rainwise got 1.17 and the Novalynx got 1.22 inches. The spare 4 inch was mounted where it was protected from the gusty winds and cocorah is out in the open field. It looks like the 8 inch Novalynx might do just a tad better in windy conditions. Might have to wait for a rain without all the wind to see if they even out.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: drew1021 on May 10, 2019, 12:55:35 PM
Well got a good rain last night,some periods of high wind and lightning. Now the cocorah caught 1.20 and the spare 4 inch about a hundred feet away got 1.15, the 8 inch rainwise got 1.17 and the Novalynx got 1.22 inches. The spare 4 inch was mounted where it was protected from the gusty winds and cocorah is out in the open field. It looks like the 8 inch Novalynx might do just a tad better in windy conditions. Might have to wait for a rain without all the wind to see if they even out.

Any results from the new spoon assy?
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: drew1021 on May 11, 2019, 03:33:26 PM
We had a break in the light to moderate rainfall over the area today so I went out to check the totals. No wind today.

Stratus.     .42
VP2.      .46
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: WheatonRon on May 12, 2019, 08:31:01 AM
Another rain event for the 24 hours ended 7am CDT on May 12 (mostly over a 3 hour period). Wind was not much of a factor, if any. Results follow:

CoCo gauge  .14
VP2 with new tipper located inches away from CoCo gauge .13
VP2 with old tipper located inches away from CoCo gauge  .14
VP2 with old tipper located about 50 feet away .11

Proximity to the CoCo gauge really helps accuracy more so than whether tipper is old or new.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: DRoberts on May 19, 2019, 03:24:52 PM
Single spoon replaced tipping bucket on VP2 yesterday afternoon. No problems with the replacement.

Mother nature cooperated for a change and we actually had a nice rain yesterday evening.

Comparison:

CoCoRaHS .32"
Tipping spoon: .30"

Distance between the two gauges is about 20 feet.

Just thought I would share.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: miraculon on May 20, 2019, 08:38:45 AM
Today's result:

VP2 w/spoon: 0.56"
CoCoRaHS: 0.53"
NovaLynx 8" TBR: 0.56"


Interesting result with the two TBRs agreeing exactly. Winds were in the 10-15 mph range during the rain event.

Greg H.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: DRoberts on May 20, 2019, 03:36:58 PM
Comparison of data

5 hr 30 min duration, average wind speed 9 mph, max gust 24 mph

VP2 tipping spoon: .66"
CoCoRaHS gauge:  .66"
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: DRoberts on May 21, 2019, 08:13:01 AM
CoCoRaHS:             .83" last 24 hours
VP2 Tipping Spoon:  .83" last 24 hours

Wind East gusting to 30 at times.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: drew1021 on May 21, 2019, 12:34:44 PM
Single spoon replaced tipping bucket on VP2 yesterday afternoon. No problems with the replacement.

Mother nature cooperated for a change and we actually had a nice rain yesterday evening.

Comparison:

CoCoRaHS .32"
Tipping spoon: .30"

Distance between the two gauges is about 20 feet.

Just thought I would share.

Are they the same height?
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: openvista on May 21, 2019, 12:58:12 PM
I'm also seeing extremely close results. We had a large weekend rain event.

CoCoRaHS (4' AGL): 2.67"
VP2 Tipping Spoon (6' AGL): 2.70"

The two gauges are 6' apart from each other.

I did notice in an earlier event that the CoCoRaHS gauge caught 0.15", while the spoon only collected 0.13". That first 0.01 or 0.02" may not get recorded if the rain is comprised of smaller droplets falling lightly. Seems they get caught in the debris screen?

FYI, I also switched out the rain cone to the newer Aerocone.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: dport on May 22, 2019, 09:14:50 AM
This is almost enough evidence for me to go out and "upgrade".  Thanks to all who have posted results.  Keep em coming. 
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: JudinNorman on May 22, 2019, 03:04:25 PM
I'm not convinced yet. I'd like to see a years worth of data in a wet environment. Burt over in UK hopefully does a study.
My rainwise has been going good for close to 20 years
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: drew1021 on May 22, 2019, 03:39:33 PM
I'm not convinced yet. I'd like to see a years worth of data in a wet environment. Burt over in UK hopefully does a study.
My rainwise has been going good for close to 20 years

Agreed, way too soon to come to conclusions on accuracy. One would need to compare and record data over a year as you mentioned. So far I suspect there is a slight positive bias based on my 3 weeks of observations. As far as waiting to purchase I say go ahead and buy and have fun observing.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: WheatonRon on May 22, 2019, 11:14:05 PM
This is almost enough evidence for me to go out and "upgrade".  Thanks to all who have posted results.  Keep em coming.

Here are my thoughts on the new Davis rain tipper after several rain events since I installed the new spoon tipper in one of my 3 VP2s. I also have a CoCo gauge that I use for comparison purposes. Some of my results I previously posted in this thread, other results were not posted, as the results were directionally consistent with my prior results. In short, the spoon tipper appears to be a slight improvement over the dual tipper Davis replaced it with. My issue is cost. Personally, I think the new tipper is probably worth an upgrade price of about $30-$40, not the nearly $60 I paid Ryan at Scaled Instruments and his prices are the best. Davis probably thinks it has hit a home run and fixes the notoriously inaccurate VP-2 rain gauge—not so—better accuracy yes, maybe a single but certainly not a home run.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: DRoberts on May 23, 2019, 08:43:56 AM
Single spoon replaced tipping bucket on VP2 yesterday afternoon. No problems with the replacement.

Mother nature cooperated for a change and we actually had a nice rain yesterday evening.

Comparison:

CoCoRaHS .32"
Tipping spoon: .30"

Distance between the two gauges is about 20 feet.

Just thought I would share.

Are they the same height?

VP2 is 1 foot higher than CoCoRaHS
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: drew1021 on May 23, 2019, 09:01:37 AM
Another update:   Overnight, moderate showers came through with no wind with the following results.

Stratus.        .47
VP2.        .50

I'm convinced that there is a positive bias with the new spoon assy. I have another spoon assy that I've calibrated to tip at precisely.544ml/per tip using a medical grade syringe. I'm going to install today. By the looks of the extended forecast  I may be waiting awhile for results.
BTW, both spoon assy's initially tipped at around .50ml
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: DRoberts on May 27, 2019, 09:35:21 AM
Additional data on VP2 spoon:

Series of rain/thunderstorms last night (26-27 May) with occasional gusts to 30, but primarily just light winds. Rainfall ranged from light to heavy.

CoCoRaHS gauge: 1.47"
VP2 Spoon: 1.49"

Just FYI
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: WheatonRon on May 27, 2019, 04:12:20 PM
Today’s rain event that lasted 1hour and 15 minutes. Shortly after noon.

Gauges about six inches off the ground—no fence or trees nearby on solid support (gauges within 10 inches of each other):

CoCo gauge 1.50 inches
VP2 with new tipper 1.53 inches
VP2 with old tipper 1.55 inches

VP2 with old tipper on a fence post about 6 feet off the ground, some trees nearby—1.20 inches—about 30 feet away from above gauges.

Conclusions? I am confused, but pleasantly surprised with the VP2s by the CoCo gauge.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: Bunty on June 02, 2019, 01:35:32 AM
So how do you remove the old tipping buckets without breaking something?   Posts in reference to it sounded vague, so I gathered it's pretty much self explanatory by looking at how it's mounted, and so it the installation of the new  tipping spoon.  Are any tools required?
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: CW2274 on June 02, 2019, 02:54:44 AM
So how do you remove the old tipping buckets without breaking something?   Posts in reference to it sounded vague, so I gathered it's pretty much self explanatory by looking at how it's mounted, and so it the installation of the new  tipping spoon.  Are any tools required?
All I remember is that it was a pain getting it out without fear of breaking it. I'm fairly sure I merely pried it out with a flat blade screw driver, but the prongs took it as nothing broke. Using a lube was suggested, may be reasonable. No idea about how tough installing the new one is though.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: drew1021 on June 02, 2019, 06:57:57 AM
Okay, results after calibrating spoon assy are as follows:
Moderate to heavy showers came through last night with light winds,

Stratus.        1.02
VP2.      1.02


Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: drew1021 on June 02, 2019, 07:05:01 AM
Another update:   Overnight, moderate showers came through with no wind with the following results.

Stratus.        .47
VP2.        .50

I'm convinced that there is a positive bias with the new spoon assy. I have another spoon assy that I've calibrated to tip at precisely.544ml/per tip using a medical grade syringe. I'm going to install today. By the looks of the extended forecast  I may be waiting awhile for results.
BTW, both spoon assy's initially tipped at around .50ml


Okay, results after calibrating spoon assy are as follows:
Moderate to heavy showers came through last night with light winds,

Stratus.        1.02
VP2.      1.02


Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: WheatonRon on June 02, 2019, 08:43:20 AM
So how do you remove the old tipping buckets without breaking something?   Posts in reference to it sounded vague, so I gathered it's pretty much self explanatory by looking at how it's mounted, and so it the installation of the new  tipping spoon.  Are any tools required?

Davis does not include any instructions. First, remove the rain collector from the rainbase, disconnect the wire connecting the tipper to the PCBA. At one end of the old tipper there are two plastic pegs that need to be moved (pushed forward) slightly so that the tipper can be dislodged from the rainbase. At the other end, the tipper fits into two slots in the rainbase. It is pretty obvious how to do this procedure once you have the rainbase in front of you. Using a flathead screwdriver can help you pry those plastic pegs so the tipper can be dislodged. Take some time, study the situation with the rainbase in front of you and you should have no problems. You don't need to take the ISS down--I found it easier that way. However, you need to see what you are doing so if the ISS is too high, you might be better off taking the ISS down.

Attached is a photo of the old tipper that has been dislodged from the rainbase showing the pegs or tabs on the right that need to be pried to loosen the old tipper. The slots I referred to are visible on the left side of the photo.

 [ You are not allowed to view attachments ]



Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: DRoberts on June 02, 2019, 10:58:40 AM
So how do you remove the old tipping buckets without breaking something?   Posts in reference to it sounded vague, so I gathered it's pretty much self explanatory by looking at how it's mounted, and so it the installation of the new  tipping spoon.  Are any tools required?

Davis does not include any instructions. First, remove the rain collector from the rainbase, disconnect the wire connecting the tipper to the PCBA. At one end of the old tipper there are two plastic pegs that need to be moved (pushed forward) slightly so that the tipper can be dislodged from the rainbase. At the other end, the tipper fits into two slots in the rainbase. It is pretty obvious how to do this procedure once you have the rainbase in front of you. Using a flathead screwdriver can help you pry those plastic pegs so the tipper can be dislodged. Take some time, study the situation with the rainbase in front of you and you should have no problems. You don't need to take the ISS down--I found it easier that way. However, you need to see what you are doing so if the ISS is too high, you might be better off taking the ISS down.

Just replaced my VP2 tipping bucket with the "spoon" and did it exactly as above. Study the way it is connected and be careful of how rough you are in removing the bucket from the two tabs.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: lightmaster on June 02, 2019, 01:35:31 PM
I installed the single spoon last week, and it definitely has a specific orientation. The draining part has to face away from the transmitter box.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: WheatonRon on June 02, 2019, 01:47:38 PM
I installed the single spoon last week, and it definitely has a specific orientation. The draining part has to face away from the transmitter box.

While your statement is correct, I believe there is only one way to install it. The tabs will work correctly only on one side.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: lightmaster on June 02, 2019, 07:41:13 PM
I installed the single spoon last week, and it definitely has a specific orientation. The draining part has to face away from the transmitter box.

While your statement is correct, I believe there is only one way to install it. The tabs will work correctly only on one side.

Yeah, the tabs will only work one way. I was just putting that out there for anyone that had trouble and didn't think to rotate it. There are no instructions with it and some people out there need explicit instructions to install things.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: Jester on June 03, 2019, 10:14:10 AM
Okay, results after calibrating spoon assy are as follows:
Moderate to heavy showers came through last night with light winds,

Stratus.        1.02
VP2.      1.02


Ok Drew, how did you calibrate?
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: drew1021 on June 03, 2019, 02:37:45 PM
Okay, results after calibrating spoon assy are as follows:
Moderate to heavy showers came through last night with light winds,

Stratus.        1.02
VP2.      1.02


Ok Drew, how did you calibrate?

Looking underneath the spoon, locate the stainless steel screw. You'll notice that there isn't a notch to fit a flat blade screwdriver, and it will have locktite on it. This is where it gets a little tricky as you will have to get needle nose pliers and grasp the threaded portion of the screw firmly and turn clockwise to increase the amount of tips and counter clockwise to decrease. So in my case I was experiencing a positive bias so I turned it counter clockwise slightly. I tested after calibrating using a 10cc medical grade syringe to tip at around 5.4cc. If someone knows of a tool to use to turn the screw let me know as I dont like using needle nose pliers to do the job. As far as I can see it's the easiest way without disassembling the entire spoon assy. Hope this helps.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: twcmaster on June 03, 2019, 02:46:18 PM
Okay, results after calibrating spoon assy are as follows:
Moderate to heavy showers came through last night with light winds,

Stratus.        1.02
VP2.      1.02


Ok Drew, how did you calibrate?

Looking underneath the spoon, locate the stainless steel screw. You'll notice that there isn't a notch to fit a flat blade screwdriver, and it will have locktite on it. This is where it gets a little tricky as you will have to get needle nose pliers and grasp the threaded portion of the screw firmly and turn clockwise to increase the amount of tips and counter clockwise to decrease. So in my case I was experiencing a positive bias so I turned it counter clockwise slightly. I tested after calibrating using a 10cc medical grade syringe to tip at around 5.4cc. If someone knows of a tool to use to turn the screw let me know as I dont like using needle nose pliers to do the job. As far as I can see it's the easiest way without disassembling the entire spoon assy. Hope this helps.


Just to be sure, you are referring to the new single spoon assembly? And the stainless screw with no notch is the one that looks like it is the bottom of a screw sticking up from the plastic?
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: drew1021 on June 03, 2019, 02:48:55 PM
Okay, results after calibrating spoon assy are as follows:
Moderate to heavy showers came through last night with light winds,

Stratus.        1.02
VP2.      1.02


Ok Drew, how did you calibrate?

Looking underneath the spoon, locate the stainless steel screw. You'll notice that there isn't a notch to fit a flat blade screwdriver, and it will have locktite on it. This is where it gets a little tricky as you will have to get needle nose pliers and grasp the threaded portion of the screw firmly and turn clockwise to increase the amount of tips and counter clockwise to decrease. So in my case I was experiencing a positive bias so I turned it counter clockwise slightly. I tested after calibrating using a 10cc medical grade syringe to tip at around 5.4cc. If someone knows of a tool to use to turn the screw let me know as I dont like using needle nose pliers to do the job. As far as I can see it's the easiest way without disassembling the entire spoon assy. Hope this helps.


Just to be sure, you are referring to the new single spoon assembly? And the stainless screw with no notch is the one that looks like it is the bottom of a screw sticking up from the plastic?

Yes and Yes
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: twcmaster on June 03, 2019, 02:49:57 PM
Okay, results after calibrating spoon assy are as follows:
Moderate to heavy showers came through last night with light winds,

Stratus.        1.02
VP2.      1.02


Ok Drew, how did you calibrate?

Looking underneath the spoon, locate the stainless steel screw. You'll notice that there isn't a notch to fit a flat blade screwdriver, and it will have locktite on it. This is where it gets a little tricky as you will have to get needle nose pliers and grasp the threaded portion of the screw firmly and turn clockwise to increase the amount of tips and counter clockwise to decrease. So in my case I was experiencing a positive bias so I turned it counter clockwise slightly. I tested after calibrating using a 10cc medical grade syringe to tip at around 5.4cc. If someone knows of a tool to use to turn the screw let me know as I dont like using needle nose pliers to do the job. As far as I can see it's the easiest way without disassembling the entire spoon assy. Hope this helps.


Just to be sure, you are referring to the new single spoon assembly? And the stainless screw with no notch is the one that looks like it is the bottom of a screw sticking up from the plastic?

Yes and Yes

Excellent, thank you for sharing! Mine has a major negative bias, but I was still afraid to mess with that screw.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: drew1021 on June 03, 2019, 03:00:21 PM
Okay, results after calibrating spoon assy are as follows:
Moderate to heavy showers came through last night with light winds,

Stratus.        1.02
VP2.      1.02


Ok Drew, how did you calibrate?

Looking underneath the spoon, locate the stainless steel screw. You'll notice that there isn't a notch to fit a flat blade screwdriver, and it will have locktite on it. This is where it gets a little tricky as you will have to get needle nose pliers and grasp the threaded portion of the screw firmly and turn clockwise to increase the amount of tips and counter clockwise to decrease. So in my case I was experiencing a positive bias so I turned it counter clockwise slightly. I tested after calibrating using a 10cc medical grade syringe to tip at around 5.4cc. If someone knows of a tool to use to turn the screw let me know as I dont like using needle nose pliers to do the job. As far as I can see it's the easiest way without disassembling the entire spoon assy. Hope this helps.


Just to be sure, you are referring to the new single spoon assembly? And the stainless screw with no notch is the one that looks like it is the bottom of a screw sticking up from the plastic?

Yes and Yes

Excellent, thank you for sharing! Mine has a major negative bias, but I was still afraid to mess with that screw.

I'm surprised you have negative bias. I would recommend that you remove the spoon assy from the base, bring it indoors, and put it on a level surface. Then use a syringe and slowly inject 5.4cc of water into the spoon to verify that you indeed have a negative bias. I have two brand new spoon assy's and the both have positive bias out of the box. They both tipped at 5.0cc initially.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: CW2274 on June 03, 2019, 03:26:34 PM
For those unaware or have forgotten and don't want to screw with the tipper itself, software such as WL (can't speak to the others but imagine they do) will allow you to calibrate + or - to a single percent.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: twcmaster on June 03, 2019, 04:44:54 PM

I'm surprised you have negative bias. I would recommend that you remove the spoon assy from the base, bring it indoors, and put it on a level surface. Then use a syringe and slowly inject 5.4cc of water into the spoon to verify that you indeed have a negative bias. I have two brand new spoon assy's and the both have positive bias out of the box. They both tipped at 5.0cc initially.

Yeah, it is a big bias too. I have been noticing up to a tenth of an inch shortage for every half inch that falls in my NWS 8" gauge and stratus. I belive I was one of the first to receive my tipper, so I am not sure if that has anything to do with it or not. I have a syringe from calibrating my Rainwise, so I will definitely give that a try. Thanks again!
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: galfert on June 03, 2019, 05:34:42 PM
Can someone explain how 5.4cc = 1 tip? Because it just doesn't add up for me.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: CW2274 on June 03, 2019, 05:55:21 PM
Can someone explain how 5.4cc = 1 tip? Because it just doesn't add up for me.
Assuming it's the same capacity as the old design, 544ml equals 1" of rain from a 6 1/2" diameter bucket.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: galfert on June 03, 2019, 06:13:08 PM
Can someone explain how 5.4cc = 1 tip? Because it just doesn't add up for me.
Assuming it's the same capacity as the old design, 544ml equals 1" of rain from a 6 1/2" diameter bucket.

Ah the diameter of the bucket, yes.  ](*,)
Not having a Davis myself I made the mistake of thinking it was 4 inch bucket in my calculation.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: CW2274 on June 03, 2019, 06:30:10 PM
Just as an FYI, the 8" RW bucket is 800ml.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: lightmaster on June 03, 2019, 07:48:52 PM
If a perfect calibration is 5.44ml per tip, and these are all seemingly calibrated to 5.00ml per tip, then these will top more often than they should and have a positive bias, right? Could Davis have done this intentionally? Maybe in their tests they saw that due to stations having to be placed higher than recommended for rain alone, and missed raindrops due to wind and having a smaller funnel than the more accurate 8" gauges, they could have decided to create the positive bias to account for those issues. Seems that as I read all these comments about comparing the new tipper to the higher quality and larger rain specific gauges, most people that had both units in essential the same spot had essentially identical readings between the different units. If all those units are calibrated to 0.500ml per tip (I don't know that they are, just assuming) doesn't that mean they are reading as accurately as they can?
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: CW2274 on June 03, 2019, 08:00:24 PM
If a perfect calibration is .544ml per tip, and these are all seemingly calibrated to .500ml per tip, then these will top more often than they should and have a positive bias, right? Could Davis have done this intentionally? Maybe in their tests they saw that due to stations having to be placed higher than recommended for rain alone, and missed raindrops due to wind and having a smaller funnel than the more accurate 8" gauges, they could have decided to create the positive bias to account for those issues.
No idea where you got 500ml from, regardless, to do this would be technical suicide. There are just waaaaay to many variables to assume a particular bias. I'm not saying they're all golden from the factory, but no way are they intentionally dialing in a bias.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: galfert on June 03, 2019, 08:39:13 PM
Well seems like a simple enough test. Those interested in sharing results should get a small syringe and see at what amount their gauge is set to tip.

Just like all of you are sharing your comparison to the Stratus I think it would be informative to see if there is a specific dialed in calibration by Davis or if they are sloppy and there are various results.

Anyone have a good Amazon link to a syringe to recommend?
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: CW2274 on June 03, 2019, 08:48:41 PM
Well seems like a simple enough test. Those interested in sharing results should get a small syringe and see at what amount their gauge is set to tip.
Insanely small sample size. IMHO, if it's to be done right, send an inch through it, and not just once.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: lightmaster on June 03, 2019, 08:50:59 PM
If a perfect calibration is .544ml per tip, and these are all seemingly calibrated to .500ml per tip, then these will top more often than they should and have a positive bias, right? Could Davis have done this intentionally? Maybe in their tests they saw that due to stations having to be placed higher than recommended for rain alone, and missed raindrops due to wind and having a smaller funnel than the more accurate 8" gauges, they could have decided to create the positive bias to account for those issues.
No idea where you got 500ml from, regardless, to do this would be technical suicide. There are just waaaaay to many variables to assume a particular bias. I'm not saying they're all golden from the factory, but no way are they intentionally dialing in a bias.

There a decimal point in front of 500, as in 0.500ml. Bad habit of mine to leave off the 0 in front of a decimal. Even so, I royally screwed up those numbers and will correct them, mean 5.4ml and 5.0 ml.

I don't have a decent syringe at the house, just a baby medicine syringe. I might still have some insulin syringes around the house that should be more accurate.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: WheatonRon on June 03, 2019, 09:11:47 PM
Well seems like a simple enough test. Those interested in sharing results should get a small syringe and see at what amount their gauge is set to tip.
Insanely small sample size. IMHO, if it's to be done right, send an inch through it, and not just once.

I agree with CW2274. Relying on a small sample when calibrating a rain gauge is not the best answer—the more water you can put through the gauge before calibrating the better—AND be sure your tipper is clean. I was surprised this weekend when opening my VP2 that has the new spoon tipper how much dirt was in the tipper-something that would contribute to positive bias. Granted, my Chicago suburb location received over 10 inches of rain in May, and that probably contributed to the increase in dirt in the tipper, although it was not in service the entire month of May.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: galfert on June 03, 2019, 10:02:55 PM
Yep okay forget the syringe. Use a graduated cylinder and use a larger amount of water.

There are plenty of old threads like this one that have great information on how it has been done before.
https://www.wxforum.net/index.php?topic=11373.0
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: drew1021 on June 03, 2019, 10:36:32 PM
With the new design of the tipping spoon you should have excellent repeatability. With that in mind using the syringe to fine tune the calibration of the tipping spoon should be sufficient.
Time will tell though, Lots of days ahead with decent shower chances [tup]
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: mcrossley on June 04, 2019, 04:20:14 AM
For those of us in the rest of the world, a tip is 4.22 cm3  ;)
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: CW2274 on June 04, 2019, 04:49:00 AM
For those of us in the rest of the world, a tip is 4.22 cm3  ;)
Touché.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: johnd on June 04, 2019, 05:23:02 AM
For those of us in the rest of the world, a tip is 4.22 cm3  ;)

Personally, I'd have said 4.28ml (for a 0.2mm spoon @ (0.200/0.254)*5.44). This is not to nitpick over decimals but more to suggest one shouldn't be too optimistic about the degree of accuracy that's achievable with this sort of calibration. For instance, I'm not completely convinced about the accuracy of the 544ml baseline figure - it does depend on exactly how you measure the funnel rim diameter, what happens when raindrops hit the rim etc.

And I bet a cheap syringe is not accurate to better than 1-2%, if that. If I was going to use the syringe approach then I'd probably weigh the syringe  on a sensitive 100g digital balance (which are available quite cheaply, and even with calibration weights, and sold for jewellery and other 8-) uses) before and after achieving a (pre-wetted) tip. I suspect that's going to give a more accurate weight/volume.

Overall, I think nothing beats field comparison over time against a good reference gauge like Stratus/CoCoRaHS or better.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: mcrossley on June 04, 2019, 05:42:19 AM
For those of us in the rest of the world, a tip is 4.22 cm3  ;)

Personally, I'd have said 4.28ml (for a 0.2mm spoon @ (0.200/0.254)*5.44). This is not to nitpick over decimals but more to suggest one shouldn't be too optimistic about the degree of accuracy that's achievable with this sort of calibration. For instance, I'm not completely convinced about the accuracy of the 544ml baseline figure - it does depend on exactly how you measure the funnel rim diameter, what happens when raindrops hit the rim etc.

Agreed, I base my 4.22 cm3 on measuring my collector bucket using the inside edge of the rim. If you add an extra 0.5 mm to the radius  (1 mm diameter) you get 4.28 cm3, so fine margins in an imprecise world of rain drops ;)
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: Jester on June 04, 2019, 10:08:47 AM
Okay, results after calibrating spoon assy are as follows:
Moderate to heavy showers came through last night with light winds,

Stratus.        1.02
VP2.      1.02


Ok Drew, how did you calibrate?

Looking underneath the spoon, locate the stainless steel screw. You'll notice that there isn't a notch to fit a flat blade screwdriver, and it will have locktite on it. This is where it gets a little tricky as you will have to get needle nose pliers and grasp the threaded portion of the screw firmly and turn clockwise to increase the amount of tips and counter clockwise to decrease. So in my case I was experiencing a positive bias so I turned it counter clockwise slightly. I tested after calibrating using a 10cc medical grade syringe to tip at around 5.4cc. If someone knows of a tool to use to turn the screw let me know as I dont like using needle nose pliers to do the job. As far as I can see it's the easiest way without disassembling the entire spoon assy. Hope this helps.


Awesome! Thanks Drew.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: drew1021 on June 04, 2019, 03:04:50 PM
You're welcome!
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: DRoberts on June 06, 2019, 09:07:52 PM
Moderate rain, wind less than 10 mph, about 15 minutes

VP2 spoon  .14"
CoCoRaHS  .13"

(Corrected)

Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: miraculon on June 14, 2019, 08:24:52 AM
Some more results from the past several days:
(VP2 has tipping spoon)

6/10 VP2: 1.74"   NovaLynx: 1.72"   CoCoRaHS: 1.61"
6/11 VP2: 0.12"   NovaLynx: 0.12"   CoCoRaHS: 0.09"
6/12 VP2: T        NovaLynx: 0        CoCoRaHS: 0
6/13 VP2: 0.59"   NovaLynx: 0.60"   CoCoRaHS: 0.56"
6/14 VP2: 0.44"   NovaLynx" 0.42"   CoCoRaHS: 0.40"

Given the proximity of the gauges to the garage and house these seem to be good results. My site doesn't comply with the standard rain gauge siting guidelines because my lot is too small.

Greg H.



Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: drew1021 on June 14, 2019, 09:46:13 AM
Some more results from the past several days:
(VP2 has tipping spoon)

6/10 VP2: 1.74"   NovaLynx: 1.72"   CoCoRaHS: 1.61"
6/11 VP2: 0.12"   NovaLynx: 0.12"   CoCoRaHS: 0.09"
6/12 VP2: T        NovaLynx: 0        CoCoRaHS: 0
6/13 VP2: 0.59"   NovaLynx: 0.60"   CoCoRaHS: 0.56"
6/14 VP2: 0.44"   NovaLynx" 0.42"   CoCoRaHS: 0.40"

Given the proximity of the gauges to the garage and house these seem to be good results. My site doesn't comply with the standard rain gauge siting guidelines because my lot is too small.

Greg H.

It's interesting that the CoCoRaHS is reading lower than both the VP2 and Novalynx. Are the gauges close to each other?
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: graculus on June 14, 2019, 10:17:11 AM
Personally, I'd have said 4.28ml (for a 0.2mm spoon @ (0.200/0.254)*5.44). This is not to nitpick over decimals but more to suggest one shouldn't be too optimistic about the degree of accuracy that's achievable with this sort of calibration. For instance, I'm not completely convinced about the accuracy of the 544ml baseline figure - it does depend on exactly how you measure the funnel rim diameter, what happens when raindrops hit the rim etc.

And I bet a cheap syringe is not accurate to better than 1-2%, if that. If I was going to use the syringe approach then I'd probably weigh the syringe  on a sensitive 100g digital balance (which are available quite cheaply, and even with calibration weights, and sold for jewellery and other 8-) uses) before and after achieving a (pre-wetted) tip. I suspect that's going to give a more accurate weight/volume.

Overall, I think nothing beats field comparison over time against a good reference gauge like Stratus/CoCoRaHS or better.

You're correct, even med syringes are not super accurate. https://chemistry.stackexchange.com/questions/41119/what-is-the-accuracy-of-medical-syringes
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: miraculon on June 14, 2019, 10:25:06 AM
The NovaLynx and CoCoRaHS are only about 3 ft apart. Just enough to get the mower in between them.

(http://rogerscityweather.com/WP_20150722_16_30_11_Pro.jpg)

The ISS is on the other side of the yard, maybe 20' away.

I have seen good agreement on all three when winds are calm and the rain was "straight down". The wind currents around the house and garage wreak havoc with snow accumulation in the winter.

I used the NovaLynx calibrator for the NovaLynx gauge. I checked the VP2 back when it had the original rain cone and tipping-buckets, but I have not repeated it since. I made multiple back-to-back runs on the NovaLynx gauge when I calibrated it to ensure that it was repeatable. There was some discussion in the CoCoRaHS thread about under catch in that gauge a while back.

Because they have agreed from time-to-time, I attribute the variation to wind currents and my substandard siting.

Greg H.

Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: drew1021 on June 14, 2019, 10:39:41 AM
Definitely check the accuracy of the VP2 when you get a chance and post the results. I can see how the gauges proximity to the house would wreck havoc on totals during windy rain or snow events.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: DRoberts on June 14, 2019, 11:10:11 PM
Thunderstorm with little wind early Friday morning. Results:

VP2 (tipping spoon)  .13
CoCoRaHS Stratus    .12

Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: Mattk on June 14, 2019, 11:34:26 PM
Personally, I'd have said 4.28ml (for a 0.2mm spoon @ (0.200/0.254)*5.44). This is not to nitpick over decimals but more to suggest one shouldn't be too optimistic about the degree of accuracy that's achievable with this sort of calibration. For instance, I'm not completely convinced about the accuracy of the 544ml baseline figure - it does depend on exactly how you measure the funnel rim diameter, what happens when raindrops hit the rim etc.

And I bet a cheap syringe is not accurate to better than 1-2%, if that. If I was going to use the syringe approach then I'd probably weigh the syringe  on a sensitive 100g digital balance (which are available quite cheaply, and even with calibration weights, and sold for jewellery and other 8-) uses) before and after achieving a (pre-wetted) tip. I suspect that's going to give a more accurate weight/volume.

Overall, I think nothing beats field comparison over time against a good reference gauge like Stratus/CoCoRaHS or better.

You're correct, even med syringes are not super accurate. https://chemistry.stackexchange.com/questions/41119/what-is-the-accuracy-of-medical-syringes

Typically a 1mm syringe is only used to do/check a ball park adjustment, not a calibration as such and this only takes a few minutes initially as opposed to a full type calibration where you make take an hour or so using 425mm (which is the amount I use), top off the last full tip with a syringe then calculate the % error, adjust accordingly and re-run the whole process again, sometimes at a faster rate, sometimes a slower rate.     
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: drew1021 on June 18, 2019, 11:54:03 AM
We had a real frog strangler here last night with the following results

Stratus.       2.88
Vp2.          2.97

Assuming the new spoon assy's accuracy is the same as the old tipper then this result is within spec at 3%
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: DRoberts on June 18, 2019, 07:40:39 PM

 One of our more decent soaking rains here.

 VP2 (spoon)  early 6:45 a.m. .14"     6:35 p.m.  1.00"   (total 1.14")
 CoCoRaHS (stratus)   "          .15"            "          .93"   (total 1.08")

Wind: Average less than 10 mph entire period

Gauges are located about 30 feet apart.

I cannot think why the disparity in the totals developed during course of 12 hours.

Ideas anyone?



Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: WheatonRon on June 18, 2019, 08:06:02 PM

 One of our more decent soaking rains here.

 VP2 (spoon)  early 6:45 a.m. .14"     6:35 p.m.  1.00"   (total 1.14")
 CoCoRaHS (stratus)   "          .15"            "          .93"   (total 1.08")

Wind: Average less than 10 mph entire period

Gauges are located about 30 feet apart.

I cannot think why the disparity in the totals developed during course of 12 hours.

Ideas anyone?

Not too surprised. I have concluded the spoon tipper has a mild wet bias, which in my view, is a positive. After several readings over the weeks testing the old tipper with the new tipper both only inches apart from my CoCo gauge is the basis for my conclusion. I think 30 feet apart could cause the abnormalities you had but all in all not bad. Tear down the goal posts and wait for the VP3! Your life expectancy is 110 years old, right?
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: CW2274 on June 18, 2019, 08:07:24 PM
Without a doubt, I think rainfall is the most difficult to truly measure accurately with present technology (comparatively speaking with other paramaters), just too many variables. Very high and low humidities are next in line.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: lightmaster on June 18, 2019, 09:19:21 PM

 One of our more decent soaking rains here.

 VP2 (spoon)  early 6:45 a.m. .14"     6:35 p.m.  1.00"   (total 1.14")
 CoCoRaHS (stratus)   "          .15"            "          .93"   (total 1.08")

Wind: Average less than 10 mph entire period

Gauges are located about 30 feet apart.

I cannot think why the disparity in the totals developed during course of 12 hours.

Ideas anyone?

I have seen it where it was an outright downpour in the field on the other side of my road, and no rain at all in my yard, and I could easily place a rain gauge in the field getting 1+ inches of rain, and a rain gauge in my yard getting no rain at all, but they'd still be less than 30 feet apart. If the distance is more than a few feet, there's no guarantee the 2 gauges will actually get the same amount of rain, much less record the same.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: lightmaster on June 18, 2019, 09:28:42 PM
Completely contrary to what I just said, my VP2 and 4" Stratus are about 150ft apart (cuz I'm not climbing a barbwire fence every day to go empty the Stratus, lol). Just had a very quick downpour (4.07in/hr for like 5 mins) and here are the comparisons:

VP2:       0.25"
Stratus: 0.22"
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: havtrail on June 19, 2019, 12:32:45 PM

 One of our more decent soaking rains here.

 VP2 (spoon)  early 6:45 a.m. .14"     6:35 p.m.  1.00"   (total 1.14")
 CoCoRaHS (stratus)   "          .15"            "          .93"   (total 1.08")

Wind: Average less than 10 mph entire period

Gauges are located about 30 feet apart.

I cannot think why the disparity in the totals developed during course of 12 hours.

Ideas anyone?

Mother Nature is fickle?

Umm, what disparity? Both totals in the range of 6 or 7 percent apart.

Rich K.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: DRoberts on June 19, 2019, 03:28:10 PM

 One of our more decent soaking rains here.

 VP2 (spoon)  early 6:45 a.m. .14"     6:35 p.m.  1.00"   (total 1.14")
 CoCoRaHS (stratus)   "          .15"            "          .93"   (total 1.08")

Wind: Average less than 10 mph entire period

Gauges are located about 30 feet apart.

I cannot think why the disparity in the totals developed during course of 12 hours.

Ideas anyone?

Mother Nature is fickle?

Umm, what disparity? Both totals in the range of 6 or 7 percent apart.

Rich K.

Yes. But it is still a disparity. Just worries the scientific side of me.  :-)
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: DRoberts on June 19, 2019, 03:30:52 PM
Completely contrary to what I just said, my VP2 and 4" Stratus are about 150ft apart (cuz I'm not climbing a barbwire fence every day to go empty the Stratus, lol). Just had a very quick downpour (4.07in/hr for like 5 mins) and here are the comparisons:

VP2:       0.25"
Stratus: 0.22"

It's the barbwire fence that is causing it.  :-P
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: lightmaster on June 19, 2019, 05:57:24 PM
Another good shower today. Not sure if I said before but I am using the new single spoon assembly.

Rain start: 3:40pm
Rain stop: 3:51pm
Stratus: 0.45"
VP2:.      0.45"
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: johnd on June 25, 2019, 04:41:01 AM
Perhaps worth noting that the tipping spoon VP2 variant is still not generally available yet - at least, we cannot order them for UK users. I'm curious as to whether they're available in other territories? (I'm talking about full VP2 stations here, not tipping spoon assemblies as spare parts.)
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: WheatonRon on July 16, 2019, 06:16:09 PM
Some additional measurements for a 20 minute rain event today.

CoCo gauge .18
Rainwise gauge 111–.18

The above two gauges were inches apart.

CWOP CW5020, VP2 with new spoon tipper—.35
CWOP FW3075, VP2 with old tipper—.19
CWOP FW4350, VP2 with old tipper—.18

The above 3 VP2 stations are on the same fence maybe 20 feet apart, and about 50 feet away from the CoCo and Rainwise gauges.

I thought the new spoon tipper was reading a bit wet, but these differences are clearly more than a “bit wet”, puzzling to say the least. Per MesoWest, most of the “extra rain” came during a 5 minute span. Not sure what these differences mean but as stated previously, puzzling is a good word.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: WheatonRon on July 18, 2019, 08:48:49 AM
Some additional measurements for another 20 minute rain event today.

CoCo gauge .38
Rainwise gauge 111–.33

The above two gauges were inches apart.

CWOP CW5020, VP2 with new spoon tipper—.53
CWOP FW3075, VP2 with old tipper—.28
CWOP FW4350, VP2 with old tipper—.32

The above 3 VP2 stations are on the same fence maybe 20 feet apart, and about 50 feet away from the CoCo and Rainwise gauges.

Consistent with prior post, new spoon tipper is over reporting rainfall, at least in a heavy rainfall. Be interesting to see how things play out in a several hour gradual rain event.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: openvista on July 18, 2019, 11:32:45 AM
Ron, have you verified that the spoon is clean and level? For instance, a dirty spoon will tip sooner than a clean one.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: WheatonRon on July 18, 2019, 12:06:42 PM
Ron, have you verified that the spoon is clean and level? For instance, a dirty spoon will tip sooner than a clean one.

Excellent suggestions, but after the first rain event, I took the rain cone off and ensured the spoon was clean. It was but I cleaned it again. Something is clearly wrong and yes the ISS is level.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: johnd on July 18, 2019, 12:54:18 PM
Perhaps worth noting that the tipping spoon VP2 variant is still not generally available yet - at least, we cannot order them for UK users.

T think this comment is still relevant. It does rather suggest to me that Davis is possibly not happy with the spoon design and is either continuing to conduct some extended accuracy trials or conceivably even reviewing the spoon design.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: WheatonRon on July 18, 2019, 09:43:24 PM
Perhaps worth noting that the tipping spoon VP2 variant is still not generally available yet - at least, we cannot order them for UK users.

I think this comment is still relevant. It does rather suggest to me that Davis is possibly not happy with the spoon design and is either continuing to conduct some extended accuracy trials or conceivably even reviewing the spoon design.

John you may be right (you usually are) but when I buy a product with the Davis name on it, I expect the new or revised product to have been properly field tested. To have these kind of results is troubling and when I consider my problems over the recent years with the SHT31 makes me feel even worse. I, and many other participants in this Forum would be happy to help field test, if Davis would just ask. Don’t treat us end users as an after-thought. And Davis, try and keep the key resellers of your world (e.g., Johnd and Ryan Wilhour of Scaled Instruments) informed on new product developments and enhancements such that they can intelligently communicate them with people like me, end users.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: johnd on July 19, 2019, 04:01:32 AM
John you may be right (you usually are) but when I buy a product with the Davis name on it, I expect the new or revised product to have been properly field tested.

Well, yes. But my point is that as far as I'm aware the TS VP2 gauge has not been officially released by Davis as yet and so one can't assume that testing is complete. If Ryan sees this then maybe he can clarify the status in the US for example. But I'm not aware of any official launch or promotion more generally for the TS part, which I would expect to see with a new product release.

If I had to guess, it would be that Davis are reasonably advanced in their plans to announce the TS part with part numbers etc assigned and have manufactured a substantial pre-production batch, a few of which inadvertently made it to Australia last year with some more released into the US spares market, but without being part of the full official launch. This is just a guess and ICBW but it has echoes of the launch of the SHT15 T/H sensor (the .174 sensor part) a couple of years back which was available in EU VP2 stations but only for a short while and also as a spare in the US, but was then superseded by SHT31 before ever making it into full production.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: Mapantz on July 19, 2019, 01:11:40 PM

Well, yes. But my point is that as far as I'm aware the TS VP2 gauge has not been officially released by Davis as yet and so one can't assume that testing is complete. If Ryan sees this then maybe he can clarify the status in the US for example. But I'm not aware of any official launch or promotion more generally for the TS part, which I would expect to see with a new product release.

If I had to guess, it would be that Davis are reasonably advanced in their plans to announce the TS part with part numbers etc assigned and have manufactured a substantial pre-production batch, a few of which inadvertently made it to Australia last year with some more released into the US spares market, but without being part of the full official launch. This is just a guess and ICBW but it has echoes of the launch of the SHT15 T/H sensor (the .174 sensor part) a couple of years back which was available in EU VP2 stations but only for a short while and also as a spare in the US, but was then superseded by SHT31 before ever making it into full production.

I see that weatherspares now have the spoon tipper for sale so I might purchase it. Although, I should add 'reluctant' in to that as it's not worth £56 in my opinion.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: weather34 on July 19, 2019, 01:42:04 PM

Well, yes. But my point is that as far as I'm aware the TS VP2 gauge has not been officially released by Davis as yet and so one can't assume that testing is complete. If Ryan sees this then maybe he can clarify the status in the US for example. But I'm not aware of any official launch or promotion more generally for the TS part, which I would expect to see with a new product release.

If I had to guess, it would be that Davis are reasonably advanced in their plans to announce the TS part with part numbers etc assigned and have manufactured a substantial pre-production batch, a few of which inadvertently made it to Australia last year with some more released into the US spares market, but without being part of the full official launch. This is just a guess and ICBW but it has echoes of the launch of the SHT15 T/H sensor (the .174 sensor part) a couple of years back which was available in EU VP2 stations but only for a short while and also as a spare in the US, but was then superseded by SHT31 before ever making it into full production.

I see that weatherspares now have the spoon tipper for sale so I might purchase it. Although, I should add 'reluctant' in to that as it's not worth £56 in my opinion.

go for it tina its where i got mine , problem these days anything  USA made,imported  is dramatically more expensive just the way it is these days..anyway he is a nice guy to deal with ..brian
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: WheatonRon on July 19, 2019, 01:59:19 PM

Well, yes. But my point is that as far as I'm aware the TS VP2 gauge has not been officially released by Davis as yet and so one can't assume that testing is complete. If Ryan sees this then maybe he can clarify the status in the US for example. But I'm not aware of any official launch or promotion more generally for the TS part, which I would expect to see with a new product release.

If I had to guess, it would be that Davis are reasonably advanced in their plans to announce the TS part with part numbers etc assigned and have manufactured a substantial pre-production batch, a few of which inadvertently made it to Australia last year with some more released into the US spares market, but without being part of the full official launch. This is just a guess and ICBW but it has echoes of the launch of the SHT15 T/H sensor (the .174 sensor part) a couple of years back which was available in EU VP2 stations but only for a short while and also as a spare in the US, but was then superseded by SHT31 before ever making it into full production.

I see that weatherspares now have the spoon tipper for sale so I might purchase it. Although, I should add 'reluctant' in to that as it's not worth £56 in my opinion.

go for it tina its where i got mine , problem these days anything  USA made,imported  is dramatically more expensive just the way it is these days..anyway he is a nice guy to deal with ..brian

I have the non-metric version of this tipper, part no. 7345.425 vs. the one being sold by weatherspares, part no. 7345.147. While easy to change-out the old rain tipper in the VP2 ISS for this new one, I am very disappointed with the inconsistencies when measuring rainfall. Sometimes this tipper over reports rain, sometimes it under reports rain when compared to my CoCo gauge. I would wait until Davis gets the bugs worked out unless the metric version, for whatever reason, doesn’t have the problems the US version has (highly unlikely). For what it is worth, I did a search for both part numbers on the Davis website without a match.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: galfert on July 19, 2019, 02:59:13 PM
Okay this idea may not be the best but I just thought I'd share it anyway and let you all poke holes and criticize it. What if you take a Stratus CoCoRaHS gauge and fill up just the internal cylinder to 1.00 inches. Then you slowly pour it into the VP2 gauge.....sloooooowly! Like maybe you don't pour it straight out of the cylinder and instead you use a piece of nylon cloth as a barrier or something like that which won't absorb water but let it pass slowly. They are both the same diameter...right?

UPDATE:
They are both the same diameter...right?
No, 4" vs 6.5".

Oh well. I guess I could do this with my Ambient since both are 4 inches.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: CW2274 on July 19, 2019, 03:17:53 PM
They are both the same diameter...right?
No, 4" vs 6.5".
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: CW2274 on July 19, 2019, 03:25:53 PM
Like I've said in previous threads, I used a gallon milk jug, a scale accurate to a gram, and a syringe to precisely add or remove water from said milk jug to calibrated my RW111 with. It ain't rocket surgery, just time consuming.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: rwilhour on July 19, 2019, 06:46:05 PM
John you may be right (you usually are) but when I buy a product with the Davis name on it, I expect the new or revised product to have been properly field tested.

Well, yes. But my point is that as far as I'm aware the TS VP2 gauge has not been officially released by Davis as yet and so one can't assume that testing is complete. If Ryan sees this then maybe he can clarify the status in the US for example. But I'm not aware of any official launch or promotion more generally for the TS part, which I would expect to see with a new product release.

If I had to guess, it would be that Davis are reasonably advanced in their plans to announce the TS part with part numbers etc assigned and have manufactured a substantial pre-production batch, a few of which inadvertently made it to Australia last year with some more released into the US spares market, but without being part of the full official launch. This is just a guess and ICBW but it has echoes of the launch of the SHT15 T/H sensor (the .174 sensor part) a couple of years back which was available in EU VP2 stations but only for a short while and also as a spare in the US, but was then superseded by SHT31 before ever making it into full production.

Yes John is correct there has not been an official release of of the actual parts 7345.147 and 7345.425 HOWEVER they ARE currently being integrated into 6163s at this moment because I have some in stock.  There was an official announcement that went out on March 8, 2019. here is the text of the release:

"At Davis Instruments, we pride ourselves on designing and manufacturing the most accurate, durable, and affordable weather instrumentation on the market. To achieve that goal we are continuously evaluating how to improve our products. One of our R&D projects has been focused on the Vantage Pro2 rain collector. After rigorous testing and evaluation of many prototypes, we are excited to announce that we have started to manufacture and ship Vantage Pro2 Plus weather stations (Item# 6162C, 6162, and 6163) with a new and improved tipping spoon mechanism. The tipping spoon is an incremental improvement for both accuracy and durability of the Vantage Pro2 rain collector. We will continue to phase in the tipping spoon for all of our Vantage Pro2 products over the next few months. Of course, the tipping spoon assembly is 100% backward compatible with previous versions of Vantage Pro2 rain collectors. Please note that all new Vantage Pro2 rain collectors with a tipping spoon will be factory calibrated to either 0.01” or 0.2 mm per tip and will no longer include an adapter that allows owners to convert from inches to millimeters or vice versa. 
 
There will not be any change to part numbers for Vantage Pro2 weather stations. However, stand-alone Vantage Pro2 rain collectors will have new part numbers once we begin to manufacture these items with the tipping spoon. We will send a follow-up email with a revised 2019 price list when the stand-alone rain collectors are ready to ship."

So how the heck did I end up with the assemblies so soon?  After getting the message above the question for me was to ask my account manager was what was the new part numbers for equivalent of the 7345.444 and 7345.147 and she gave me the part numbers (the ones with 40' cables are models 7345.439 mm and 7345.440 inch but I never ordered any of those).  My next wholesale order I order about 20 units of each (can't remember how many to be exact), and they were shipped to me with my freight.  I looked at the invoice price and wow I was getting a good deal on them, they were cheap so I put them on my website for a good price.  When I started running out I ordered a bunch more.  This time my invoice price was much higher so I was forced to raise my prices on the units (some of you may have remembered that).  I still have that stock and have not run out yet.

About 2 weeks ago my account manager told me that she got in a bit of trouble releasing all these units to me in two separate shipments.  She said that they were not planning on selling these until they were all phased into all the pro2 units.  So at this point I don't know if they will sell me more.   Apparently the units were all boxed up and sitting on the shelf ready to go and the stock pickers saw my order and pulled the parts and shipped without consideration that corporate wanted to hold that stock.  It appears as the new TP is in full production and has been since the March 8th 2019 announcement. 
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: Mattk on July 19, 2019, 09:51:35 PM
I would ask what problem? Being a tipping spoon or tipping buckets there will ALWAYS be a discrepancy and difference, can be over, can be under (depending on the way or what the gauge has been calibrated for/too) to something else as different rate rates will produce different rain amounts relative to the "real" rain amount and one reason why real tipping bucket assemblies store the rain going through the tippers so as to actually measure and confirm actual rainfall if required at a later time. This type of gear is going to cost a lot more than a garden variety PWS tipper and I think too many users are being overly expectant of the garden varieties they are using.   
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: drew1021 on July 23, 2019, 09:36:24 AM
We had a heavy rain shower with wind during the night with the following results

Stratus.        1.18
Vp2.            1.27

This is with the new tipping spoon (uncalibrated)
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: miraculon on July 23, 2019, 01:32:52 PM
I noticed when I received the tipping spoon that it didn't have the metalized plating like the older tipping buckets.

Perhaps this was a cost-down measure, but did the metallic surface of the tipping buckets offer any advantage? Davis must have decided that it wasn't needed for the tipping spoon.

Greg H.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: bahuga on July 23, 2019, 03:31:17 PM
Here are my statistics of the last few months, in millimeters.  I have compared the values obtained with the "classic" VP2 tipping buckets, the new tipping spoon (metric version) and with the reference rain gauge (SPIEA)  used in France. 

From April 24 to April 30, 2019 (5 measurements) : SPIEA 33.6 mm, VP2 tipping spoon: 34.4 mm (+2.4%), VP2 tipping buckets : 32.6 mm (-3%)
May 2019 (12 measurements) : SPIEA 77.5 mm, VP2 tipping spoon: 80.2 mm (+3.5%), VP2 tipping buckets :76.4 mm (-1.4%)
June 2019 (8 measurements) : SPIEA 129.3 mm, VP2 tipping spoon: 134.6 mm (+4.1%), VP2 tipping buckets :134.2 mm (+3.8%)
From July 1 to July 21, 2019 (4 measurements) : SPIEA 10.6 mm, VP2 tipping spoon: 11.2 mm (+5.7%), VP2 tipping buckets :10.8 mm (+1.9%)

My VP2 new tipping spoon is over reporting rainfall, as already observed in this forum, but it seems this  is going worst with time : + 2.4% in April and now +5.7%. 

I will continue the comparison, without changing any calibration, to know how will evolve the measurements of the tipping spoon, and if it will stabilize at a certain point.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: mike88ag on July 25, 2019, 08:48:00 AM
I'm considering ordering the tipping spoon when I finally order the Sensiron SHT31 T/H sensor today, but I'm a little hesitant because of the results reported here. I have my tipping bucket dialed in to within 1-2% of the Stratus gauge mounted only inches away, so I can't say I'm not happy with it. Is it possible to calibrate the tipping spoons?

To calibrate the tipping bucket, I built a constant-head calibration tool similar to the one from R.M. Young. I use a triple beam balance accurate to 1/100th of a gram to measure a known volume of water (density corrected for temperature), and I calculate the rainfall total that volume of water should translate to based on the 6.5" diameter of the rain collector. I use different orifice sizes to simulate a wide range of rainfall rates, with the rate derived from the measured total and the time required to empty the container.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: CW2274 on July 25, 2019, 02:47:25 PM
I have my tipping bucket dialed in to within 1-2% of the Stratus gauge mounted only inches away, so I can't say I'm not happy with it.
If you're consistently getting that kind of accuracy from a Davis tipper, I wouldn't even look at it crossed eyed let alone buy a new one. They're only spec'd to 4% as is, and that's on a good day...
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: mike88ag on July 25, 2019, 07:18:00 PM
I have my tipping bucket dialed in to within 1-2% of the Stratus gauge mounted only inches away, so I can't say I'm not happy with it.
If you're consistently getting that kind of accuracy from a Davis tipper, I wouldn't even look at it crossed eyed let alone buy a new one. They're only spec'd to 4% as is, and that's on a good day...

That's the conclusion I reached. I bought the new T/H sensor and a few other spare parts, but decided against the spoon. Almost bought the replacement ISS PCBA that goes w/ the new sensor, but decided the 0.9 deg F calibration adjustment would be just fine for now.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: miraculon on July 27, 2019, 08:31:32 AM
Last few observations:
=====================================
Update on another one:
CoCoRaHS=0.88"; VP2=0.93"; Novalynx=0.92"
=====================================


Coco: 0.05"; VP2=0.04"; Novalynx=0.05"
Coco: 0.04"; VP2=0.04"; Novalynx=0.04"
Coco: 0.29"; VP2=0.31"; Novalynx=0.31"

Coco is CoCoRaHS manual gauge, VP2 has Aerocone and Tipping Spoon. Last entry was from this morning and we had fairly heavy rain between 5-6AM when thunderstorms passed through. Winds were very light < 1 MPH during the rainfall. I have some suspicions that the CoCo has trouble with splash-out during heavy rain.

Greg H.

Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: ecobuild on February 03, 2020, 07:21:44 AM
Old topic, new question! Has anyone got tips/pictures for removing old tipping spoon assembly from VP2? I would like to remove it cleanly without breaking any bits. I tried levering it off with a flat screwdriver but it did not come willingly and I was afraid something was going to break. (Curiously I am getting very close results at present between my VP2 and my manual gauge ever since my VP2 developed a slight tilt - accidental calibration!)
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: miraculon on February 03, 2020, 08:32:53 AM
Old topic, new question! Has anyone got tips/pictures for removing old tipping spoon assembly from VP2? I would like to remove it cleanly without breaking any bits. I tried levering it off with a flat screwdriver but it did not come willingly and I was afraid something was going to break. (Curiously I am getting very close results at present between my VP2 and my manual gauge ever since my VP2 developed a slight tilt - accidental calibration!)

The latches that hold the original tipping bucket were difficult to release and I had the same concerns about breaking them. They were tougher than expected and I didn't break mine. After the old "bucket" assembly is out, the installation of the spoon was relatively easy.

My only suggestion is to wait for warmer weather so the plastic isn't brittle.

I used a small screwdriver at the time, but I have recently ordered a spudger set (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B06XNPRL42) from Amazon. (I don't have it yet, so I cannot vouch for the tools)

Greg H.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: johnd on February 03, 2020, 08:55:38 AM
My only suggestion is to wait for warmer weather so the plastic isn't brittle.

Or maybe bring it into a warm room for some hours before attempting the 'operation'?
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: CW2274 on February 03, 2020, 02:37:04 PM
Yes, it's a b***h to remove. I believe someone here used a lube like WD40 or vegetable oil to help slide things along. I got mine out without breaking it, but I thought for sure I was going to...but I also didn't care either as it wasn't going to be reused so it'll take some pressure without breaking. YMMV.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: ecobuild on February 04, 2020, 01:34:26 PM
Thanks all for suggestions. It was 10oC (50oF) this afternoon and I had a go again after seeing this guide: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TD2hIu_WnUI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TD2hIu_WnUI) and it worked. It is necessary to press quite hard with one hand against the tabs (in sequence) that hold the base in place while the other hand levers the screwdriver in the slot under the base. Relieved to get it done without breaking anything!
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: adrianhudson on April 17, 2020, 06:30:13 AM
DON'T lever the base clips! You might be lucky and they won't break but they have to be levered so much to release the old tipping bucket unit that they are very close to breaking or permanently bending.

Davis have released a YouTube video of the correct way to release the old tipping bucket unit. The video ecobuild mentions above is not Davis' recommended way.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EiipHSWhA-8
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: Brientim on April 17, 2020, 08:18:46 AM
Just a little comparison between the 2 tipping bucket since Jan. The two picture are what is recorded since Jan 13 and there has only a very minor variation.

Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: Mapantz on June 12, 2020, 08:19:43 AM
I finally upgraded to the new one today. Just in the nick of time as a downpour occurred just as I plugged it in to the ISS. Working perfectly!

Very easy to fit, took just 3 minutes.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: ConligWX on June 13, 2020, 04:31:31 PM
It's definitely worth the upgrade. I had posted a number of comparisons between this and a CoCoRaHS gauge.

https://www.wxforum.net/index.php?topic=37647.msg391822#msg391822

Sent from my GM1913 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: BrianLehan on June 16, 2020, 06:42:03 PM
I've been using the "spoon" unit for over a year and don't remember the install being anything but easy, follow the video posted above, which is better than the user one I had found someplace which had bad camera angles off his ladder.

I think it is much more accurate then the old "double" was.

Brian
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: Mapantz on June 16, 2020, 07:34:07 PM
I've been using the "spoon" unit for over a year and don't remember the install being anything but easy, follow the video posted above

I didn't know there was a video?!

All I did was carefully used a flathead screwdriver to push the tipper base forward and used my thumb & index finger to push the clips back - it just popped out instantly. Popped the new one in and fed the cable back through the original route and plugged it in! It had just started spitting with rain before a deluge was coming, so I had to be quick. But it genuinely took just a few minutes.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: Dj1225 on July 22, 2020, 04:35:41 PM
I just installed the tipping spoon the other day, and today we had a storm roll through the high rain rate was 7.38" after it passed I took the aero cone off and saw this  [ You are not allowed to view attachments ]  has anyone with the tipping spoon had this happen and is this a known issue?
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: ConligWX on July 22, 2020, 05:31:06 PM
cant say I noticed. once it was installed I didn't take it back down to check.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: BrianLehan on July 22, 2020, 06:02:44 PM
So the old style see-saw tipping bucket used two outlet wells to distribute water out the bottom, whereas the spoon only uses one of them. I find that my maintenance routine had to be adjusted to monthly look at the well being used and remove debris as necessary. I have a ton of pines in my area and the rice sized needles collect often.

Is it possible yours became full or partially clogged and with that much rain in an hour, they backed up into the bottom of the unit?
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: Dj1225 on July 22, 2020, 07:50:42 PM
Is it possible yours became full or partially clogged and with that much rain in an hour, they backed up into the bottom of the unit?

No it was clear nothing was clogging the drain holes.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: miraculon on July 23, 2020, 09:07:46 AM
Perhaps that high rain rate just overwhelmed the drainage port?

Quote
high rain rate was 7.38"

Greg H.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: mcrossley on July 23, 2020, 10:31:17 AM
As there is a blob of water on the side of the spoon assembly, it may have overwhelmed the spoon as well - or at least been splashing out?
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: Dj1225 on July 23, 2020, 11:02:37 AM
Perhaps that high rain rate just overwhelmed the drainage port?

Quote
high rain rate was 7.38"

Greg H.

As there is a blob of water on the side of the spoon assembly, it may have overwhelmed the spoon as well - or at least been splashing out?

Hmmm #-o well since it seems like it can't handle the high rain rates along the gulf coast I guess I'll switch back to the old style tipper  ](*,)
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: Dj1225 on July 27, 2020, 01:18:52 AM
Update...I guess installing the tipping spoon I made the base unlevel and that might have been the problem with the puddle on the side. I leveled the base and haven't seen any water puddling since, even with a rain rate on the 25th of 9.00"/hr. As most noted in here last year there is a slight positive bias comparing it with the cocorahs gauge. I've had rain everyday since Wednesday the 22nd we've been on the wet side of Hurricane Hannah here on the Mississippi Gulf Coast here are my comparisons.....

7/22 VP2 0.83" (with water puddled on the base) Coco 0.81"

7/23 VP2 0.20"   Coco 0.18"

7/24 VP2 1.51"   Coco 1.48"

7/25 VP2 2.22"   Coco 2.16"

7/26 VP2 0.71"   Coco 0.68"
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: johnd on July 27, 2020, 03:31:09 AM
TBH that looks like as good agreement as you're likely to get when comparing any two rain gauges.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: Dj1225 on July 27, 2020, 07:38:44 AM
TBH that looks like as good agreement as you're likely to get when comparing any two rain gauges.

Yeah I agree and I'm definitely happy with the results. Much better than the original tipper.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: Mapantz on August 28, 2020, 08:38:46 AM
I just wanted to make a quick post regarding my spoon tipper.. I'm over the moon with it!

Yesterday saw an absolute biblical amount of rain in a short space of time, I certainly have never seen anything like it! I recorded a rain rate of 411 mm/hr - the radar reflectivity dBz showed rainfall rates off of the scale.

The rain gauge is always recording the same amount of rain as my manual gauge at the same height, just two feet apart. It's very consistent and copes with the extreme downpours we're having at the moment. Best decision I made was to replace the old see-saw tipper.


Well, that post made me look stupid!
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: ConligWX on August 28, 2020, 08:44:04 AM
That's some rain! Have to agree the tipping spoon upgrade was a no brainer for me.

Sent from my GM1913 using Tapatalk
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: Jasiu on August 28, 2020, 03:21:48 PM
I put in a tipping spoon a few weeks ago and my only complaint is that it hasn't done anything to end our drought.  :-|

But when it has rained, it's always been within .01" of the CoCo gauge, which is as good as it gets and wasn't the case with the see-saw.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: WheatonRon on September 28, 2020, 04:43:43 PM
It has been a month since anybody posted anything in this thread so I decided to post some additional observations regarding the Davis spoon tipper. I have 3 VP2s—2 with the spoon tipper the other with the see saw tipper. Over time I have found the spoon tipper more accurate than the see-saw tipper AS LONG as the spoon is kept clean of debris. Awhile back, one of my spoon tippers started grossly over reporting rainfall. I ventured out to the ISS and found “gunk” from birds and God knows what else in the spoon that remained there even after dropping accumulated rainfall. This had a dramatic effect of over reporting rain. Once I removed the gunk, the spoon tipper started reporting rainfall accurately again. For whatever reason, the see saw tipper doesn’t have this issue—its gunk gets eliminated when tipping rain. In short? Like most things in life, you have to maintain it, or it loses its purpose—correctly measuring and measuring rainfall!
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: ConligWX on September 28, 2020, 05:15:43 PM
yep just cleaned my ISS on sunday.  the spoon and the shoot that the spoon dumps water into had dirt build up on the surfaces. The AeroCone however was very clean.  Maybe the birds in my area are not very good shots at the cone  :lol:

My FARS Shield was pretty black inside too, though its like new now.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: Mapantz on December 05, 2020, 07:00:30 AM
I've started to notice an issue with the newer Davis spoon tipper after 6 months of keeping an eye on it..

It doesn't do well in when there's a lot of rainfall in a short space of time.

In the 6 months I  have been using it, we've had unusual rain events here where a lot of rain falls in the space of 6 - 10 hours.

I've got 2 manual gauges, the Davis one and another self tipping one. The Davis gauge, a manual gauge and the other self tipper are all at the same height. The self tipper is 12ft away, from the Davis. The manual gauge is 2ft away. The 4th manual gauge is on the ground.

If around 15mm falls in a 12 - 24 hours period - steady rain - they are evenly matched. If we get big downpours of 15mm+ in the space of 1 or 2 hours, or even 25mm+ in 6 hours, the Davis gauge is regularly 3mm or more, higher than the rest of the gauges.

I know someone will post something along the lines of "rainfall can vary within short spaces" but I have had a lot of days with downpours to be able to monitor it. There's a clear sign that it overreads in heavy/very heavy rain. It seems to not be able to cope and tips extra times in downpours.

Back in August, we had a thunderstorm which produced some of the heaviest rainfall I have ever seen, which produced a rain rate of 411 mm/hr. I'm doubting that figure now based on what keeps happening. It's overread rainfall by at least 3mm on 9 occasions in the last 6 months, and it has again today.

I've checked the gauge thoroughly every single week. The spoon is clean, no cobwebs and nothing I can see to cause it to produce these spurious amounts. As I said above, the problems arise during very heavy rain. It's like it can't cope with the influx of water and the spoon tips multiple times before it has a chance to reset.

It's all good in steady dynamic rainfall events. Anything convective / downpours, it goes off on one.

There is a clear signal  that it has issues in heavy rain events and it doesn't leave me with any confidence now, as you cannot really adjust it in this situation. If you did, you'd get lower rainfall readings during the steady rain episodes.

Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: Mapantz on December 15, 2020, 06:50:00 PM
I have been in contact with Davis and they cannot help - basically said it's likely I have a dodgy rain tipper and I will have to contact the supplier to use the warranty on it.

I'm starting to think it was a bad idea now... it was simple to calibrate the old see-saw tipper. With this one, you're stuffed!
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: CW2274 on December 15, 2020, 06:52:36 PM
I'm starting to think it was a bad idea now... it was simple to calibrate the old see-saw tipper. With this one, you're stuffed!
Hardwire a Rainwise 111 to your ISS and be done with it.
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: BrianLehan on December 21, 2020, 08:34:47 PM
Mapantz Back in October and November a neighboring station and I began a little close comparisons of his Davis see-saw and his manual gauge and my spoon and manual gauge and the conclusion is that the spoon and the see-saw were just as accurate the manual gauges in those yards were. So I think Davis must be right, your was a factory defect and replacing it would fix your issue. Or you could ask the place you bought it from to maybe send the warranty replacement in the form of a see-saw if that is your desire but I think the spoons are a lot better than the see-saws were mechanically IMHO. 
Title: Re: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?
Post by: Mapantz on December 22, 2020, 06:17:28 AM
I sent it back on Friday. They received it yesterday and did some testing on it..

Quote
Having received the tipping spoon this morning, we agree that the calibration is slightly off compared to our reference model from Davis. It gives 36 tips compared to 40 of the reference model we have. The sealed calibration screw can also be seen to be a little higher on yours reducing the tip rate.

Their findings suggest that it was under-reading rainfall?!

There's absolutely no way it was under-reading! There are numerous days where it was as much as 8mm higher than my manual gauges and other mechanical tipper. If it was under-reading, it would put that in excess of 10mm.

I put my see-saw tipper back in on Saturday, and yesterday, another inch of rain fell. The Davis was at 25.8mm. The other mechanical tipper recorded 25.7mm, and the two manual gauges were circa 26mm. If the spoon tipper had been kept, it would have registered in excess of 30mm.

It's pretty conclusive over the past 5 / 6 months that the newer spoon tipper is completely wide of the mark. I find it weird that in the shops testing, they found it to be under-reading..