Author Topic: WWV potentially going off the air due to budget cuts  (Read 3134 times)

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Online Jasiu

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Re: WWV potentially going off the air due to budget cuts
« Reply #25 on: August 21, 2018, 04:42:55 PM »
Re: Nomorobo: Not supported on Verizon "traditional landline". (You need their FIOS product).

But, honestly, it's one ring vs. four and we can deal with that.

I do see they have a mobile product now. Will check that out!!
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Offline SLOweather

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Re: WWV potentially going off the air due to budget cuts
« Reply #26 on: August 21, 2018, 06:01:35 PM »
I had a modified touchpad that added extra tones. A, B, C, D tones used by the military's phone network. You could pretent to be able to call into the armed forces.

The 4th column ABCD tones were always a part of the TouchTone spec. Most handheld amateur radio mics and radios include the fourth column, and the tones are used for remote control, paging, and so forth. Autovon chose to assign specific functions to those tones.

OTOH, I recall that the original ToughTone phones only had 10 buttons, omitting th * and #.

Offline Mattk

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Re: WWV potentially going off the air due to budget cuts
« Reply #27 on: August 21, 2018, 06:47:47 PM »
GPS doesn't work so well inside buildings. I have an AT&T microcell and unless I put next to a window it doesn't work because it needs to get GPS location signal to be allowed to work. Apparently AT&T put a geofence on the device so that it wouldn't work outside of the US. They didn't want the microcell being used out of the country because they would miss out on all the roaming revenue.

I don't think GPS for time signal is a good solution based on this experience. Another similar experience is when I'm in a parking garage and I ask my car navigation for directions it doesn't have a GPS lock so it doesn't work till I get out of the parking garage.

Correct GPS as a navigation system does not work well inside buildings or obstructed environments but this is not navigation this is purely Time and a little different to the "GPS Timing" and is part of what the acronym Navstar basically stand for Navigation Satellite Timing and Ranging   

Offline nincehelser

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Re: WWV potentially going off the air due to budget cuts
« Reply #28 on: August 21, 2018, 07:15:08 PM »
Correct GPS as a navigation system does not work well inside buildings or obstructed environments but this is not navigation this is purely Time and a little different to the "GPS Timing" and is part of what the acronym Navstar basically stand for Navigation Satellite Timing and Ranging

It doesn't work well for time information in obstructed environments, either.

GPS time is currently 18 seconds or so faster than UTC as it isn't corrected for changes in the earth's rotation.  GPS receivers have to wait over 12 minutes to get a broadcast message with the current time correction before they can truly show the correct time (i.e. UTC).

So not only does the GPS signal have a difficult time penetrating buildings, the signal has to be consistently good long enough to receive the broadcast message.


Offline WeatherHost

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Re: WWV potentially going off the air due to budget cuts
« Reply #29 on: August 21, 2018, 09:13:36 PM »
Meaning consumers will have to "throw-out" all WWVB-timed items ... 


I can set my radio controlled clocks manually.  Which I usually have to do since they never pick up the signal to do it themselves.



Offline galfert

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Re: WWV potentially going off the air due to budget cuts
« Reply #30 on: August 21, 2018, 09:32:21 PM »
GPS doesn't work so well inside buildings. I have an AT&T microcell and unless I put next to a window it doesn't work because it needs to get GPS location signal to be allowed to work. Apparently AT&T put a geofence on the device so that it wouldn't work outside of the US. They didn't want the microcell being used out of the country because they would miss out on all the roaming revenue.

I don't think GPS for time signal is a good solution based on this experience. Another similar experience is when I'm in a parking garage and I ask my car navigation for directions it doesn't have a GPS lock so it doesn't work till I get out of the parking garage.

Correct GPS as a navigation system does not work well inside buildings or obstructed environments but this is not navigation this is purely Time and a little different to the "GPS Timing" and is part of what the acronym Navstar basically stand for Navigation Satellite Timing and Ranging

The only thing being sent by a GPS satellite is its time (not the same as your time because of signal distance time of travel) and the satellite's position and the position of other satellites in the constellation. Data sent is data sent. It is either all received or it isn't. It is up to your device then to make sense of that data and determine its location based on the data. What you may be thinking is that sometimes you can get just one satellite's signal but you need 3 to triangulate and determine your location. So you might think one satellite is enough for getting time. But you also need this triangulation to determine the proper time offset between the satellite and you based on the satellite's distance which is unknown if your device does not yet know where it is. Data from just one satellite might work as a crude time setting with a higher degree of variance. But even still in a lot of buildings getting even one satellite is impossible.

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Offline Mattk

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Re: WWV potentially going off the air due to budget cuts
« Reply #31 on: August 21, 2018, 09:41:19 PM »
Correct GPS as a navigation system does not work well inside buildings or obstructed environments but this is not navigation this is purely Time and a little different to the "GPS Timing" and is part of what the acronym Navstar basically stand for Navigation Satellite Timing and Ranging

It doesn't work well for time information in obstructed environments, either.

GPS time is currently 18 seconds or so faster than UTC as it isn't corrected for changes in the earth's rotation.  GPS receivers have to wait over 12 minutes to get a broadcast message with the current time correction before they can truly show the correct time (i.e. UTC).

So not only does the GPS signal have a difficult time penetrating buildings, the signal has to be consistently good long enough to receive the broadcast message.

What one has to realize is the basic difference between most GPS receiver and a Timing receiver, waiting for the broadcast message/s is only relevant when a receiver has been switched off for some time and in fact takes 12.5 minutes as there are 25 pages in the message and each takes 30 seconds to acquire but again mostly only relevant to the positioning side of the system as primary timing receivers are programmed with position hence doesn't require what a navigation type receiver requires from a complete cold start. in any case timing receivers feeding commercial and industry are up full time not that the time for most everyday purposes is going to need constant adjustment   

Offline Mattk

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Re: WWV potentially going off the air due to budget cuts
« Reply #32 on: August 21, 2018, 09:46:48 PM »
GPS doesn't work so well inside buildings. I have an AT&T microcell and unless I put next to a window it doesn't work because it needs to get GPS location signal to be allowed to work. Apparently AT&T put a geofence on the device so that it wouldn't work outside of the US. They didn't want the microcell being used out of the country because they would miss out on all the roaming revenue.

I don't think GPS for time signal is a good solution based on this experience. Another similar experience is when I'm in a parking garage and I ask my car navigation for directions it doesn't have a GPS lock so it doesn't work till I get out of the parking garage.

Correct GPS as a navigation system does not work well inside buildings or obstructed environments but this is not navigation this is purely Time and a little different to the "GPS Timing" and is part of what the acronym Navstar basically stand for Navigation Satellite Timing and Ranging

The only thing being sent by a GPS satellite is its time (not the same as your time because of signal distance time of travel) and the satellite's position and the position of other satellites in the constellation. Data sent is data sent. It is either all received or it isn't. It is up to your device then to make sense of that data and determine its location based on the data. What you may be thinking is that sometimes you can get just one satellite's signal but you need 3 to triangulate and determine your location. So you might think this is enough for getting time. But you also need this triangulation to determine the proper time offset between the satellite and you based on the satellite's distance which is unknown if your device does not yet know where it is. Data from just one satellite might work as a crude time setting with a higher degree of variance. But even still in a lot of buildings getting even one satellite is impossible.

The first principle of GPS navigation is certainly not Time (as such as most refer to it as) but the correct term is Timing and yes it requires a minimum of 4 satellites to compute the 4 unknowns, X,Y,Z & T and of course if you know one or more of the other variables then that can reduce the number of computed unknowns.

Offline W3DRM

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Re: WWV potentially going off the air due to budget cuts
« Reply #33 on: August 21, 2018, 11:25:23 PM »
Looks like we have a long ways to go to get to the target of 98,814 signatures by Sept 17th. The count is only at 1,186 at the moment... I have several clocks in my home, including my CASIO watch that are set by WWVB. Would certainly hate to see that feature go away.
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Offline Mattk

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Re: WWV potentially going off the air due to budget cuts
« Reply #34 on: August 22, 2018, 01:26:25 AM »
Has all the hallmarks of the now defunct Loran system, was also supposedly important (to some) but nobody could see much good pouring money into a dated system that not many used any more but was supposedly claimed as a backup for GNSS. Time (pun intended :)) is a changing   

Offline vreihen

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Re: WWV potentially going off the air due to budget cuts
« Reply #35 on: August 22, 2018, 05:56:25 AM »
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^  This!  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
WU Gold Stars for everyone! :lol:

Offline Intheswamp

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Re: WWV potentially going off the air due to budget cuts
« Reply #36 on: August 22, 2018, 09:20:19 AM »
I remember when people set their own clocks too instead of having something a thousand miles away do it for them.
Come to think of it, I have no idea how my parents (or grandparents) set the clocks.  I figure they either used a radio or television signal.  Or, my father set his watch by the "bank clock" and then set the clocks at the house by his watch....?????  I've never really thought about it.  Seems I recall making phone calls where you waiting for "the tone" and maybe on the television they'd give a tone/time sync.  Of course, back then it seems people weren't so strict on timing and if it was a really important appointment or something then you arrived a few minutes early "to be sure".   Naturally, the radio stations back then gave out the time fairly regularly...I don't here that much anymore, though.

My memory's fading...as is time.  #-o :lol:

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Online PaulMy

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Re: WWV potentially going off the air due to budget cuts
« Reply #37 on: August 22, 2018, 09:25:33 AM »
Quote
Come to think of it, I have no idea how my parents (or grandparents) set the clocks.  I figure they either used a radio or television signal.
In the 1950s I can recall that at least one radio station provided a short count down, I think at noon but not 100% sure, that was used to reset the clocks. 

Paul

Online Jasiu

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Re: WWV potentially going off the air due to budget cuts
« Reply #38 on: August 22, 2018, 10:19:45 AM »
I remember when people set their own clocks too instead of having something a thousand miles away do it for them.
Come to think of it, I have no idea how my parents (or grandparents) set the clocks.  I figure they either used a radio or television signal.  Or, my father set his watch by the "bank clock" and then set the clocks at the house by his watch....?????  I've never really thought about it.  Seems I recall making phone calls where you waiting for "the tone" and maybe on the television they'd give a tone/time sync.  Of course, back then it seems people weren't so strict on timing and if it was a really important appointment or something then you arrived a few minutes early "to be sure".   Naturally, the radio stations back then gave out the time fairly regularly...I don't here that much anymore, though.

My memory's fading...as is time.  #-o :lol:

We still have one AM news radio station in Boston that transmits a tone at the exact top of every hour. I remember when that was more common (although it seemed to be limited to news stations) and I'd always reset my car clock based on that. (car clock syncs via GPS now...)

If I recall my history correctly, it wasn't until train scheduling became a thing that anyone even worried about synchronized time between cities.

I use an NTP app on my phone to reset my (mechanical) grandfather clock once a week. Interesting to observe how temperature and humidity affect its accuracy.
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Offline nincehelser

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Re: WWV potentially going off the air due to budget cuts
« Reply #39 on: August 22, 2018, 10:37:24 AM »
Come to think of it, I have no idea how my parents (or grandparents) set the clocks.  I figure they either used a radio or television signal.  Or, my father set his watch by the "bank clock" and then set the clocks at the house by his watch....?????  I've never really thought about it.

Setting by the "bank clock" was the way many farmers did it in my area.

When the bank got one of those time/temp displays, farmers complained that the displayed temp was always too high, obviously because of all the brick and concrete in town.

Offline WeatherHost

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Re: WWV potentially going off the air due to budget cuts
« Reply #40 on: August 22, 2018, 10:43:36 AM »
Seems I recall making phone calls where you waiting for "the tone"

'At the tone, the time will be nine forty four AM and 10 seconds ....  BEEP'


Offline WeatherHost

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Re: WWV potentially going off the air due to budget cuts
« Reply #41 on: August 22, 2018, 10:49:50 AM »
I was going around setting all the $5-10 wall clocks in the house for a while during DST changes, replacing batteries, etc.  One day I realized I never look at any of them.  So I stopped doing it.  They still hang on the walls as decorations, frozen at whatever time they died last.  Don't wear a watch either.  Rarely care what time it is since I never have to be anywhere at any set time, except for a couple of appointments a few months apart.  I set reminders on the 'puter and phones for those which are synced to their various network time systems.

I'd be willing to say the vast majority of Americans don't even know there IS a radio time system any more, let alone why they would ever need or use one.

 
I have no idea what it costs to maintain that system annually, but I'm not sure it's really necessary any more.


Offline SLOweather

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Re: WWV potentially going off the air due to budget cuts
« Reply #42 on: August 22, 2018, 12:16:03 PM »
no one should need a rotary phone anymore. There are rotary phone apps.

You mean that I can't use this anymore?



Good thing my speakerphone has a pulse/tone dialing switch...




Offline Intheswamp

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Re: WWV potentially going off the air due to budget cuts
« Reply #43 on: August 24, 2018, 07:35:32 AM »
I think if more people were aware that their "Atomic Clock" wasn't going to be keeping the correct time anymore that lots of them would be scampering to the petition to sign it.  There's still a lot of people using alarm clocks in the morning.  Lots use their smart phones, but we, like most likely many families, use regular alarm clocks, too.  I can't remember the last time I set the time at the small digital clock beside my bed...I don't even think about it anymore.

We get very, very poor cellphone coverage at our home, whether inside or out, but inside being very, very poor.  I get no cellphone signal in my bedroom at all.  But, that little digital clock sitting on my nightstand stays set perfectly via the WWV signal.

Yeah, if more people knew, more people would sign.

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Offline miraculon

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Re: WWV potentially going off the air due to budget cuts
« Reply #44 on: August 27, 2018, 03:17:20 PM »
I found this YouTube video of a visit by a Ham group of WWV in Fort Collins, Colorado. I found it interesting. They had "Weatherlink" running so they must have a Davis weather station running somewhere, but they didn't show the instruments.

[youtube]https://youtu.be/XJewUiP0Ueo[/youtube]

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Offline nincehelser

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Re: WWV potentially going off the air due to budget cuts
« Reply #45 on: August 28, 2018, 06:41:28 PM »
I found this YouTube video of a visit by a Ham group of WWV in Fort Collins, Colorado. I found it interesting.

Very interesting!

Did you catch the story about how they could have had the original voice for $300?  (at about the 11:30 mark)

Offline miraculon

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Re: WWV potentially going off the air due to budget cuts
« Reply #46 on: August 29, 2018, 08:27:04 AM »
I found this YouTube video of a visit by a Ham group of WWV in Fort Collins, Colorado. I found it interesting.

Very interesting!

Did you catch the story about how they could have had the original voice for $300?  (at about the 11:30 mark)

I did. Although I have had managers in my working career that were the same way. Spend a dollar for the dime that they saved...

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