Author Topic: Barani Meteoshield Pro III vs Davis FARS24H vs Apogee TS100  (Read 22888 times)

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Offline Meteorology fan

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Re: Barani Meteoshield Pro III vs Davis FARS24H vs Apogee TS100
« Reply #125 on: February 14, 2025, 10:19:11 AM »
Yes, I noticed that too. Temperature measurement is an extremely complicated matter. Personally, I can't imagine not having good passive shields like SiAp and next to Apogee TS-100.
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Offline Jasper3012

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Re: Barani Meteoshield Pro III vs Davis FARS24H vs Apogee TS100
« Reply #126 on: February 14, 2025, 01:02:35 PM »
The silly thing is that somehow overcooling due to active ventilation feels worse than overheating due to lack of ventilation. Even though considering the entire year, overheating on passives happens more often than overcooling on the active.

In 2024, from May until the end, the highest error on the daily max that I ever recorded on the Barani was 0.3C. In total, maybe about 5 days had an error on the daily max, compared to the Davis. On the contrary, there were countless days, pretty much every single day in summer, where the Davis had an error. There is little to no need for an active shield in a temperate climate.

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Re: Barani Meteoshield Pro III vs Davis FARS24H vs Apogee TS100
« Reply #127 on: February 14, 2025, 01:18:28 PM »
With this last sentence I would disagree. Instead of passive plastic radiation shielding, it is better to go with a Stevenson Screnn and a single aspiration shield for reduntane measurements.
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Offline hmderek

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Re: Barani Meteoshield Pro III vs Davis FARS24H vs Apogee TS100
« Reply #128 on: February 14, 2025, 02:14:27 PM »
The silly thing is that somehow overcooling due to active ventilation feels worse than overheating due to lack of ventilation. Even though considering the entire year, overheating on passives happens more often than overcooling on the active.

In 2024, from May until the end, the highest error on the daily max that I ever recorded on the Barani was 0.3C. In total, maybe about 5 days had an error on the daily max, compared to the Davis. On the contrary, there were countless days, pretty much every single day in summer, where the Davis had an error. There is little to no need for an active shield in a temperate climate.

Interesting. You have a location with a decent breeze at all times? The only real issues I have it when wind dips below 0,5 m/s. Like today, mid winter, I can already get up to 0,6C errors due to lack of ventilation. Snow is probably making things a little worse than it would have been otherwise.
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Offline Jasper3012

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Re: Barani Meteoshield Pro III vs Davis FARS24H vs Apogee TS100
« Reply #129 on: February 14, 2025, 02:29:46 PM »
The silly thing is that somehow overcooling due to active ventilation feels worse than overheating due to lack of ventilation. Even though considering the entire year, overheating on passives happens more often than overcooling on the active.

In 2024, from May until the end, the highest error on the daily max that I ever recorded on the Barani was 0.3C. In total, maybe about 5 days had an error on the daily max, compared to the Davis. On the contrary, there were countless days, pretty much every single day in summer, where the Davis had an error. There is little to no need for an active shield in a temperate climate.

Interesting. You have a location with a decent breeze at all times? The only real issues I have it when wind dips below 0,5 m/s. Like today, mid winter, I can already get up to 0,6C errors due to lack of ventilation. Snow is probably making things a little worse than it would have been otherwise.

I live in Brugge, only 15 km from the North Sea, and my station is in a completely open field, so no trees or anything to block off wind.

Offline hmderek

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Re: Barani Meteoshield Pro III vs Davis FARS24H vs Apogee TS100
« Reply #130 on: February 14, 2025, 02:31:23 PM »
I live in Brugge, only 15 km from the North Sea, and my station is in a completely open field, so no trees or anything to block off wind.

Sounds like a brilliant spot. I believe you when you say you rarely have any errors. I live a little further away from the sea with more trees in the nearby environment so I more easily get no wind situations.
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Offline Kallo78

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Re: Barani Meteoshield Pro III vs Davis FARS24H vs Apogee TS100
« Reply #131 on: February 16, 2025, 01:37:17 AM »
In the open field, for some months the following screens

Pro3 modified version - Temperature and humidity sensor (wh32ep)
SIAP SC - Temperature and humidity sensor (wh31ep)
RAD 14 - Temperature and humidity sensor (wh31ep)
Apogee TS100 - Temperature and humidity sensor (wh31ep nf) + Temperature sensor (ds18b20)
SIAP SC - Temperature sensor (ds18b20)

This morning, for example, I found the following minimum

Pro3: -0.1
SIAP SC: -0.1
RAD 14: -0.2
Apogee TS100 (wh31ep): -0.4
Apogee TS100 (ds18b20): -0.3
SIAP SC (ds18b20): 0.1

The air was not saturated, so I think that in Apogee the greater cooling can be attributed to the fact that the fan, at constant speed, is able to suck from the layers below (colder) cooler air, which the passive in absence of wind cannot absorb.

Offline Kallo78

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Re: Barani Meteoshield Pro III vs Davis FARS24H vs Apogee TS100
« Reply #132 on: February 16, 2025, 01:48:31 AM »
Yesterady hourly deviation

Offline Kallo78

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Re: Barani Meteoshield Pro III vs Davis FARS24H vs Apogee TS100
« Reply #133 on: February 16, 2025, 02:18:46 AM »
And I must say that I did not notice, in the version of the Barani that I have, no particular problem compared to other passives. This winter.

It is normal to notice, at the first radiation and without wind a more vertical rise of the sensors inside the Apogee. I think it’s just reactivity while the passive sensors are sleeping. Then as soon as the wind picks up everything aligns

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Re: Barani Meteoshield Pro III vs Davis FARS24H vs Apogee TS100
« Reply #134 on: February 17, 2025, 02:39:03 PM »
Today conditions in the anticyclone, lagging Arctic air, considerable albedo with snow cover and low speed for most of the day. The morning was windless, then the wind moved, but did not exceed 14 km/h at the height of the radiation shields.

Today's results without Davis FARS24H, because I have a problem with the recorder there, it devours excessive current and will be for warranty replacement. Others are running smoothly on Apogee and Barani.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2025, 02:40:38 PM by Meteorology fan »
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Re: Barani Meteoshield Pro III vs Davis FARS24H vs Apogee TS100
« Reply #135 on: February 19, 2025, 05:04:42 AM »
Yesterday's comparison and interesting phenomenon at night and during the day. Apogee TS-100 was running at night at minimum FARS. The Barani Meteoshield Pro III overestimated the temperature on a windless night and for most of the day.
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Offline hmderek

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Re: Barani Meteoshield Pro III vs Davis FARS24H vs Apogee TS100
« Reply #136 on: February 19, 2025, 06:01:55 AM »
Yesterday's comparison and interesting phenomenon at night and during the day. Apogee TS-100 was running at night at minimum FARS. The Barani Meteoshield Pro III overestimated the temperature on a windless night and for most of the day.

Wondering how you draw the conclusion that the passive overestimates and it's not the Apogee that underestimates?
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Offline ivano

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Re: Barani Meteoshield Pro III vs Davis FARS24H vs Apogee TS100
« Reply #137 on: February 19, 2025, 06:27:17 AM »
Good morning, comparing an Apoge TS-100 with a meteoshield pro 3 gen or any passive, in conditions of weak or no wind, I seem to want to win easily :)
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Re: Barani Meteoshield Pro III vs Davis FARS24H vs Apogee TS100
« Reply #138 on: February 19, 2025, 08:41:20 AM »
hmderek - Next to it I had Davis FARS24H. Also at minimum speed it showed lower than the Barani Meteoshield Pro III. The minimum Davis FARS24H came out -13.4℃, the Apogee TS-100 -13.6℃. Also, the two FARSs went lower than the Barani. I gave this data to ChatGPT for interpetation and he also noticed that a stagnant air could form on Barani under windless night conditions.
Ecowitt WS90 1.3.8, WS80 1.2.5, Ecowitt WS68, Ecowitt WH31EP/WH32EP, WH40, WH57, WN34L, WH51, WN34D, HP2560_C, HP2550_C, GW1100, GW2000. Davis Vantage Pro 2, Davis Vue, Davis 6313, Hongyuv WDS2E

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Offline hmderek

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Re: Barani Meteoshield Pro III vs Davis FARS24H vs Apogee TS100
« Reply #139 on: February 19, 2025, 08:49:40 AM »
hmderek - Next to it I had Davis FARS24H. Also at minimum speed it showed lower than the Barani Meteoshield Pro III. The minimum Davis FARS24H came out -13.4℃, the Apogee TS-100 -13.6℃. Also, the two FARSs went lower than the Barani. I gave this data to ChatGPT for interpetation and he also noticed that a stagnant air could form on Barani under windless night conditions.

The idea of the stagnant air in a passive shield makes sense. But it has made equal sense to me that active shields could underestimate when they suck air from below. Since temps close to the ground can be significantly colder on clear, windless winter nights.
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Re: Barani Meteoshield Pro III vs Davis FARS24H vs Apogee TS100
« Reply #140 on: February 19, 2025, 08:55:52 AM »
Here the risk that this was the case is low. The Apogee TS-100 is slightly higher than the Barani Meteoshield Pro III. It was operated at minimum speed to avoid wet-bulb effects on high and radiation nights.

The difference of -0.37°C between the Apogee TS-100 and the Barani Meteoshield Pro III is too small to indicate a wet-bulb effect. If the Apogee TS-100 were affected, the temperature drop would be much greater, potentially by as much as several degrees, especially with high humidity.

Why is this not a wet thermometer effect?
No excessive temperature difference - Apogee TS-100 recorded a minimum temperature only 0.37°C lower than Barani, suggesting better air exchange rather than an evaporative cooling phenomenon.
Radiation conditions - on windless nights with strong ground heat radiation, the air near the surface cools intensely, and a shield with inferior ventilation (Barani) may not be able to keep up with this decline. Apogee, even at minimum FARS, could better track the actual temperature.
Humidity does not indicate evaporation - previous data shows that humidity was high at night, but not so extreme that the wet thermometer effect could play a key role.

What was the reason for the difference?
The Barani had stagnant air and did not reflect the temperature drop as well.
The Apogee TS-100 better reflected the actual temperature, rather than the effect of a wet thermometer, thanks to minimal ventilation.
Bottom line: it's more a problem with the air exchange in the Barani than the effect of a wet thermometer in the Apogee.

Based on these minimum temperatures:

Apogee TS-100 (PT1000) → -13.64°C
Barani Meteoshield Pro III (PT1000) → -13.27°C
What this means.
The Apogee TS-100 recorded a lower minimum temperature, suggesting that it better reflected the actual air temperature in radiative cooling conditions.
The Barani Meteoshield Pro III overestimated the minimum temperature by 0.37°C, which supports the thesis of the problem of stagnant air and its insufficient replacement in the absence of wind.
Which shield was more accurate?
The Apogee TS-100 better reproduced the actual minimum temperature, which means that its design (FARS at minimum speed) provided better air exchange and no heat accumulation.
Barani overestimated the temperature, indicating that the shield did not provide adequate ventilation for the sensor under conditions of a windless radiation night.
This is further evidence that under calm radiation conditions the Barani shield may tend to overestimate the minimum temperature compared to the ventilated Apogee TS-100 shield.

« Last Edit: February 21, 2025, 03:39:14 AM by Meteorology fan »
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Offline mauro63

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Re: Barani Meteoshield Pro III vs Davis FARS24H vs Apogee TS100
« Reply #141 on: February 19, 2025, 03:42:10 PM »
Here the risk that this was the case is low. The Apogee TS-100 is slightly higher than the Barani Meteoshield Pro III. It was operated at minimum speed to avoid wet-bulb effects on high and radiation nights.

The difference of -0.37°C between the Apogee TS-100 and the Barani Meteoshield Pro III is too small to indicate a wet-bulb effect. If the Apogee TS-100 were affected, the temperature drop would be much greater, potentially by as much as several degrees, especially with high humidity.

Why is this not a wet thermometer effect?
No excessive temperature difference - Apogee TS-100 recorded a minimum temperature only 0.37°C lower than Barani, suggesting better air exchange rather than an evaporative cooling phenomenon.
Radiation conditions - on windless nights with strong ground heat radiation, the air near the surface cools intensely, and a shield with inferior ventilation (Barani) may not be able to keep up with this decline. Apogee, even at minimum FARS, could better track the actual temperature.
Humidity does not indicate evaporation - previous data shows that humidity was high at night, but not so extreme that the wet thermometer effect could play a key role.

What was the reason for the difference?
The ram had stagnant air and did not reflect the temperature drop as well.
The Apogee TS-100 better reflected the actual temperature, rather than the effect of a wet thermometer, thanks to minimal ventilation.
Bottom line: it's more a problem with the air exchange in the Barani than the effect of a wet thermometer in the Apogee.

Based on these minimum temperatures:

Apogee TS-100 (PT1000) → -13.64°C
Barani Meteoshield Pro III (PT1000) → -13.27°C
What this means.
The Apogee TS-100 recorded a lower minimum temperature, suggesting that it better reflected the actual air temperature in radiative cooling conditions.
The Barani Meteoshield Pro III overestimated the minimum temperature by 0.37°C, which supports the thesis of the problem of stagnant air and its insufficient replacement in the absence of wind.
Which shield was more accurate?
The Apogee TS-100 better reproduced the actual minimum temperature, which means that its design (FARS at minimum speed) provided better air exchange and no heat accumulation.
Barani overestimated the temperature, indicating that the shield did not provide adequate ventilation for the sensor under conditions of a windless radiation night.
This is further evidence that under calm radiation conditions the Barani shield may tend to overestimate the minimum temperature compared to the ventilated Apogee TS-100 shield.

Please note that the wet-bulb effect is not necessarily the measurement of the wet-bulb temperature ;)

the intensity of the underestimation due to the wet-bulb effect can be of variable intensity, it depends on the surface of the sensor that is "wet" at that moment and on the ventilation that hits the sensor, often the underestimation due to the wet-bulb effect is positioned on an intermediate range between the dry bulb temperature and the wet bulb temperature.

There are so many variables in play that one cannot allow oneself, as someone here claims to do, to issue sentences and verdicts, based on one's own personal interpretation, based on real data, but not scientifically demonstrable.

M.

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Re: Barani Meteoshield Pro III vs Davis FARS24H vs Apogee TS100
« Reply #142 on: February 20, 2025, 12:20:38 AM »
I uploaded the tables and graphs to chatgpt. The AI indicated that in the absence of wind, the Barani Gen III delayed radiative cooling of the air relative to the Apogee TS-100. It indicated that this is a normal occurrence on radiative nights with virtually no wind.
Ecowitt WS90 1.3.8, WS80 1.2.5, Ecowitt WS68, Ecowitt WH31EP/WH32EP, WH40, WH57, WN34L, WH51, WN34D, HP2560_C, HP2550_C, GW1100, GW2000. Davis Vantage Pro 2, Davis Vue, Davis 6313, Hongyuv WDS2E

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Offline mauro63

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Re: Barani Meteoshield Pro III vs Davis FARS24H vs Apogee TS100
« Reply #143 on: February 20, 2025, 08:29:12 AM »
I uploaded the tables and graphs to chatgpt. The AI indicated that in the absence of wind, the Barani Gen III delayed radiative cooling of the air relative to the Apogee TS-100. It indicated that this is a normal occurrence on radiative nights with virtually no wind.

Chatgpt??

Please don't belittle or make obsolete the work of researchers, metrologists and reference figures in the metrology sector with this nerdy bullshit

The day OpenAI manages to convince me that it knows the exact temperature at a precise moment in time at any point in the troposphere, and, above all, he will be able to prove it to me, which is a paradox in itself.I will start to care of ;)

thanks
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Re: Barani Meteoshield Pro III vs Davis FARS24H vs Apogee TS100
« Reply #144 on: February 20, 2025, 08:50:10 AM »
But the thesis that a stagnation forms on a windless night in Barani is true. It can be seen in this shield, as in any passive shields anyway as there is no wind.
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Re: Barani Meteoshield Pro III vs Davis FARS24H vs Apogee TS100
« Reply #145 on: February 21, 2025, 02:29:30 PM »
Windy conditions and snow and high winds. Sun maximum 27.5 degrees above the horizon. PT1000s took off after 7:00 am, as the wind was weaker than forecast conditions indicated. Tomorrow's day will be similar weather-wise and the loggers will start evenly at 0:00 am with synchronization to 1s for PT1000s.

Note that despite the wind and fairly pronounced overheating on Barani Meteoshield Pro III occurred for most of the sunny day.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2025, 02:34:59 PM by Meteorology fan »
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Re: Barani Meteoshield Pro III vs Davis FARS24H vs Apogee TS100
« Reply #146 on: February 22, 2025, 03:19:00 AM »
Today you can see the problem perfectly in the morning on the Barani Meteoshield Pro III. The sun is shining, it is cloudless. You can see that it is blowing off the heated surface of the shield and the warm air from the heated plates is being “pushed” inside the shield. At the end of the day, there will also be a comparison with Apogee TS-100 and Barani Meteoshield Pro III for SHT35 and PT1000s sensors. Charts available below.

Of course, we are talking about the problem of low solar radiation angle. I'm investigating this effect further, as it does not always occur and its severity varies greatly.

« Last Edit: February 22, 2025, 03:20:52 AM by Meteorology fan »
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Re: Barani Meteoshield Pro III vs Davis FARS24H vs Apogee TS100
« Reply #147 on: February 22, 2025, 03:44:22 PM »
Comparison of Barani Meteoshield Pro III vs Apogee TS-100. Davis on one chart added as a curiosity. When I receive the new PT1000, I will add Davis FARS24H to the comparisons.

In the morning the problem on the Barani highlighted strongly, but the higher the sun was, the radiation error decreased on the passive shield.
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Re: Barani Meteoshield Pro III vs Davis FARS24H vs Apogee TS100
« Reply #148 on: February 23, 2025, 03:31:03 PM »
Today's comparisons only with SHT35.
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Re: Barani Meteoshield Pro III vs Davis FARS24H vs Apogee TS100
« Reply #149 on: February 25, 2025, 04:40:54 AM »
Yesterday day and weak wind and brief glimpses of sunshine in the anticyclone.
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PT1000 4-wire - Termio 2 (3x)

Barani Meteoshield Pro II, III, Davis FARS 24H, Apogee TS100

 

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