Author Topic: Barani Meteoshield Pro III vs Davis FARS24H vs Apogee TS100  (Read 22887 times)

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Offline Meteorology fan

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Barani Meteoshield Pro III vs Davis FARS24H vs Apogee TS100
« on: November 22, 2024, 02:50:47 AM »
I'm opening a thread in which I will separately describe my tests and thoughts on the Barani Meteoshield Pro III. I will illustrate the advantages and disadvantages independently of each shield. They are used in comparison Sensirion SHT35 without filters in each shield. In addition, for redundancy of air temperature measurements I use PT1000 with loggers and calibration in each shield. The recording interval for the PT1000 is 1 minute and there is time synchronization to 1 s with the local time in Poland.
Ecowitt WS90 1.3.8, WS80 1.2.5, Ecowitt WS68, Ecowitt WH31EP/WH32EP, WH40, WH57, WN34L, WH51, WN34D, HP2560_C, HP2550_C, GW1100, GW2000. Davis Vantage Pro 2, Davis Vue, Davis 6313, Hongyuv WDS2E

PT1000 4-wire - Termio 2 (3x)

Barani Meteoshield Pro II, III, Davis FARS 24H, Apogee TS100

Offline n68rv0x

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Re: Barani Meteoshield Pro III vs Davis FARS24H vs Apogee TS100
« Reply #1 on: November 22, 2024, 03:06:56 AM »
 #-o It is important to realise that the Apogee's ventilation decreases more significantly at times, resulting in greater smoothing than at 6 m/s without ventilation holes, as both the sensor and the shelter wall become slower and no longer capture the same amplitude of the real variation. If the ventilation hole is too long, of course at some point, depending on the time constant of the Apogee without ventilation and whether or not these x extra turns are necessary for the given radiation and wind, the T will drift higher
more slowly without as much noise, and without the usual major peaks and troughs, because the rise is already relatively slow in the event of total shutdown  #-o

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Re: Barani Meteoshield Pro III vs Davis FARS24H vs Apogee TS100
« Reply #2 on: November 24, 2024, 03:22:36 AM »
Conditions in Poland have recently been windy and undemanding, hence the significant difference in targets is not noted. Below are sample charts for the last day, on which there were flashes of sunshine, but with clear wind.
Ecowitt WS90 1.3.8, WS80 1.2.5, Ecowitt WS68, Ecowitt WH31EP/WH32EP, WH40, WH57, WN34L, WH51, WN34D, HP2560_C, HP2550_C, GW1100, GW2000. Davis Vantage Pro 2, Davis Vue, Davis 6313, Hongyuv WDS2E

PT1000 4-wire - Termio 2 (3x)

Barani Meteoshield Pro II, III, Davis FARS 24H, Apogee TS100

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Re: Barani Meteoshield Pro III vs Davis FARS24H vs Apogee TS100
« Reply #3 on: December 04, 2024, 01:36:03 AM »
Yesterday highlighted the shortcomings of the Barani Meteoshield Pro III, which overheated in the autumn sun and low sun angle. The sun was about 15 degrees above the horizon, compared to about 60 degrees in summer at my place. Apogee and Davis were going evenly with each other on the PT1000. Of great note is that the SHT-35 is not suitable for comparison charts in strongly changing conditions, when we rely on data from the Ecowitt server and a lot of discrepancies in the charts arise.

We perceive that in low wind conditions the Davis FARS24H and Apogee TS100 provide better protection against overheating. If the wind had been even weaker yesterday, the radiation error generated by the Barani Meteoshield Pro III would have been even greater.

Maximum temperatures differed between the calibrated PT1000 and SHT35 in different shields by up to a few tenths. Based on the PT1000, the Barani overheated by about 0.3 deg.C relative to the Apogee TS100 and Davis FARS24H.

Loggers at PT1000 unusually started at 7:50 a.m. rather than 0:00 a.m. local time. This was due to the occurrence of a larger area of flare-ups than shown by numerical models and weaker winds. Therefore, as soon as the sun rose higher and higher above the horizon, I remotely programmed the PT1000 loggers for a one-minute interval and 1s synchronization.

Charts and tables below.
Ecowitt WS90 1.3.8, WS80 1.2.5, Ecowitt WS68, Ecowitt WH31EP/WH32EP, WH40, WH57, WN34L, WH51, WN34D, HP2560_C, HP2550_C, GW1100, GW2000. Davis Vantage Pro 2, Davis Vue, Davis 6313, Hongyuv WDS2E

PT1000 4-wire - Termio 2 (3x)

Barani Meteoshield Pro II, III, Davis FARS 24H, Apogee TS100

Offline Jasper3012

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Re: Barani Meteoshield Pro III vs Davis FARS24H vs Apogee TS100
« Reply #4 on: December 04, 2024, 07:53:39 AM »
0.3C is nothing if it’s a single day, the Davis overheats 0.3C pretty much every day in summer lol.

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Re: Barani Meteoshield Pro III vs Davis FARS24H vs Apogee TS100
« Reply #5 on: December 04, 2024, 07:57:21 AM »
We will be checking this against the Apogee TS100. We must remember that ventilated shelters have a faster response than passive shelters. However, the windmill in my opinion in Davis FARS24H is relatively inefficient relative to Apogee TS100.

With winter albedo and snow, the Davis FARS24H, due to its artificial ventilation, will show its superiority over any passive shelter including Barani Meteoshield.
Ecowitt WS90 1.3.8, WS80 1.2.5, Ecowitt WS68, Ecowitt WH31EP/WH32EP, WH40, WH57, WN34L, WH51, WN34D, HP2560_C, HP2550_C, GW1100, GW2000. Davis Vantage Pro 2, Davis Vue, Davis 6313, Hongyuv WDS2E

PT1000 4-wire - Termio 2 (3x)

Barani Meteoshield Pro II, III, Davis FARS 24H, Apogee TS100

Offline Jasper3012

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Re: Barani Meteoshield Pro III vs Davis FARS24H vs Apogee TS100
« Reply #6 on: December 04, 2024, 11:37:58 AM »
We must remember that ventilated shelters have a faster response than passive shelters.

I’ve explained about a thousand times that while this is true, it doesn’t explain the entire difference between the FARS and Barani during high angle sunshine and with some wind. There is 100% at times an error of 0.1-0.3C on the Davis. I have no idea if this is the case for the Apogee aswell.


Offline tobyportugal

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Re: Barani Meteoshield Pro III vs Davis FARS24H vs Apogee TS100
« Reply #7 on: December 04, 2024, 12:21:57 PM »
Yesterday highlighted the shortcomings of the Barani Meteoshield Pro III, which overheated in the autumn sun and low sun angle. The sun was about 15 degrees above the horizon, compared to about 60 degrees in summer at my place. Apogee and Davis were going evenly with each other on the PT1000. Of great note is that the SHT-35 is not suitable for comparison charts in strongly changing conditions, when we rely on data from the Ecowitt server and a lot of discrepancies in the charts arise.

We perceive that in low wind conditions the Davis FARS24H and Apogee TS100 provide better protection against overheating. If the wind had been even weaker yesterday, the radiation error generated by the Barani Meteoshield Pro III would have been even greater.

Maximum temperatures differed between the calibrated PT1000 and SHT35 in different shields by up to a few tenths. Based on the PT1000, the Barani overheated by about 0.3 deg.C relative to the Apogee TS100 and Davis FARS24H.

Loggers at PT1000 unusually started at 7:50 a.m. rather than 0:00 a.m. local time. This was due to the occurrence of a larger area of flare-ups than shown by numerical models and weaker winds. Therefore, as soon as the sun rose higher and higher above the horizon, I remotely programmed the PT1000 loggers for a one-minute interval and 1s synchronization.

Charts and tables below.

What are the exact times and dates (start and end) of the "overheating" of the Barani?
What are the GPS coordinates or the name of the town where the shelters are?
EDIT: What is the radiation value? (Exact please)
« Last Edit: December 04, 2024, 12:24:43 PM by tobyportugal »

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Re: Barani Meteoshield Pro III vs Davis FARS24H vs Apogee TS100
« Reply #8 on: December 05, 2024, 01:31:29 AM »
1 The Barani Meteoshield Pro III overheated from 8:15 a.m. local time almost continuously until 1:02 p.m. There were only small gaps in which it showed an analogous or similar air temperature to the Davis FARS24H and Apogee TS100.

2 The shelters are located in the city of Lublin, Lubelskie Voivodeship, Poland.

3. I don't have a precision pyranometer, relying only on data from the WS68 and the light sensor there, which is not of high quality.

What can be said is that the PT1000s are of a higher class than the SHT-35/SHT-45. This can be seen in the graphs. On the SHT-35 there are problems with full synchronization on the chart and can only serve as an overview of this data. In addition, synchronization of loggers every 1s gives much more accurate results on PT1000.

« Last Edit: December 05, 2024, 01:33:10 AM by Meteorology fan »
Ecowitt WS90 1.3.8, WS80 1.2.5, Ecowitt WS68, Ecowitt WH31EP/WH32EP, WH40, WH57, WN34L, WH51, WN34D, HP2560_C, HP2550_C, GW1100, GW2000. Davis Vantage Pro 2, Davis Vue, Davis 6313, Hongyuv WDS2E

PT1000 4-wire - Termio 2 (3x)

Barani Meteoshield Pro II, III, Davis FARS 24H, Apogee TS100

Offline tobyportugal

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Re: Barani Meteoshield Pro III vs Davis FARS24H vs Apogee TS100
« Reply #9 on: December 05, 2024, 06:19:32 AM »
A WS68 can give an idea of cloud cover.
Your theory is not logical, at your location on 03/12/2024 at 8.15am the sun is at 6.43° and an object 10m high can cast 88m of shadow.
At 11h20 it is at 16.62° (maximum elevation) with 33m of possible shadow.
At 1pm it was at 13.30° (same as 9.30am) with 42m of possible shadow.
We do agree that the sun does not (re)heat the air but the solids which heat the air by convection.
So according to your theory, a low sunbeam will heat a dish or reflect off the sensor in the Barani.
Logically, at this time of year, you should find this situation on every cloudless day, with a parabolic overheating curve peaking at the 15° angle you claim. But this is not the case.
On the other hand, everyone knows that FARS have a problem with morning humidity because the sun heats the ground and so heating a 'wet' object produces rising vapour. Water vapour lowers the temperature.
The only hypothesis that could validate your theory is solar waves beyond the visible range, as this range of waves is not the same in intensity in the morning and evening (which is why solar astrophotography is done in the morning).
But frankly I don't believe it.

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Re: Barani Meteoshield Pro III vs Davis FARS24H vs Apogee TS100
« Reply #10 on: December 05, 2024, 06:46:06 AM »
On the other hand, you may not believe it, but Barani Gen III tends to overestimate at low sun angles. This happens regardless of the season. For me, it is not a replacement for the cage. Davis FARS24H and Apogee TS100 go evenly at the same speeds.

We also have a problem with overheating at low sun angles in the Barani Meteoshield Pro III relative to a full-fledged WMO screnn.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2024, 06:52:17 AM by Meteorology fan »
Ecowitt WS90 1.3.8, WS80 1.2.5, Ecowitt WS68, Ecowitt WH31EP/WH32EP, WH40, WH57, WN34L, WH51, WN34D, HP2560_C, HP2550_C, GW1100, GW2000. Davis Vantage Pro 2, Davis Vue, Davis 6313, Hongyuv WDS2E

PT1000 4-wire - Termio 2 (3x)

Barani Meteoshield Pro II, III, Davis FARS 24H, Apogee TS100

Offline Jasper3012

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Re: Barani Meteoshield Pro III vs Davis FARS24H vs Apogee TS100
« Reply #11 on: December 05, 2024, 06:59:44 AM »
A WS68 can give an idea of cloud cover.
Your theory is not logical, at your location on 03/12/2024 at 8.15am the sun is at 6.43° and an object 10m high can cast 88m of shadow.
At 11h20 it is at 16.62° (maximum elevation) with 33m of possible shadow.
At 1pm it was at 13.30° (same as 9.30am) with 42m of possible shadow.
We do agree that the sun does not (re)heat the air but the solids which heat the air by convection.
So according to your theory, a low sunbeam will heat a dish or reflect off the sensor in the Barani.
Logically, at this time of year, you should find this situation on every cloudless day, with a parabolic overheating curve peaking at the 15° angle you claim. But this is not the case.
On the other hand, everyone knows that FARS have a problem with morning humidity because the sun heats the ground and so heating a 'wet' object produces rising vapour. Water vapour lowers the temperature.
The only hypothesis that could validate your theory is solar waves beyond the visible range, as this range of waves is not the same in intensity in the morning and evening (which is why solar astrophotography is done in the morning).
But frankly I don't believe it.

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You are overcomplicating it, if the sun is at a low sun angle and the Barani shield design offers insufficient protection from the sun rays (via the open bottom for example), then the sun can indirectly heat the interior of the shield, including the sensor. I don’t understand why you keep doubting this effect, it’s been shown to happen very clearly multiple times, including this one very good example I recorded on the 27th of Aug: https://meteo-be.net/nl/grafieken/male-brugge/custom_day/2024-08-26T22:00Z

Conditions at the time were a full blue sky with sun and little to no wind, the ideal combination for this to occur.

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Re: Barani Meteoshield Pro III vs Davis FARS24H vs Apogee TS100
« Reply #12 on: December 05, 2024, 07:13:03 AM »
It is even worse when the snow falls, we have the sun low over the horizon and conditions with a weak wind of 1-2 m/s. High albedo does not serve this dial. Then the error exceeds even 1-2 degrees for most of the day on Barani and can project maximum and daily averages. Here the open underside of the Meteoshield Pro III from Barani is indirectly to blame. Stevenson's cage is protected from such an effect by double louvers. The Apogee TS100 and Davis FARS24H expose the shortcomings of the Barani well. Of course, tests and comparisons continue and I look forward to other conditions.
Ecowitt WS90 1.3.8, WS80 1.2.5, Ecowitt WS68, Ecowitt WH31EP/WH32EP, WH40, WH57, WN34L, WH51, WN34D, HP2560_C, HP2550_C, GW1100, GW2000. Davis Vantage Pro 2, Davis Vue, Davis 6313, Hongyuv WDS2E

PT1000 4-wire - Termio 2 (3x)

Barani Meteoshield Pro II, III, Davis FARS 24H, Apogee TS100

Offline tobyportugal

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Re: Barani Meteoshield Pro III vs Davis FARS24H vs Apogee TS100
« Reply #13 on: December 05, 2024, 08:26:09 AM »
You are overcomplicating it, if the sun is at a low sun angle and the Barani shield design offers insufficient protection from the sun rays (via the open bottom for example), then the sun can indirectly heat the interior of the shield, including the sensor. I don’t understand why you keep doubting this effect, it’s been shown to happen very clearly multiple times, including this one very good example I recorded on the 27th of Aug: https://meteo-be.net/nl/grafieken/male-brugge/custom_day/2024-08-26T22:00Z

Conditions at the time were a full blue sky with sun and little to no wind, the ideal combination for this to occur.

Why is this? Quite simply, no one is presenting irrefutable and repeated evidence.
What is a low sun? 15°, 10°, 5° in what azimuth?
You put forward a design 'problem', i.e. a tangible, fixed element with which it is easy to identify the exact contexts, provided that all the parameters are precise. What do we see every time? Deviation curves without the rest. 
What's more, trying to prove this type of problem with active shelters is stupid - they're two different techniques.
You admit (quite rightly) that a FARS is more reactive under certain conditions, and you put forward a theory based on two different ways of measuring.
Do you think this is a rational approach? I don't (no personal attacks  ;)).
Who has made this type of observation against other passive shelters (Comet, Rad02, Rad14, Siap, etc...) for 365 days to cover all possible scenarios. Nobody I know of has done this, for the simple reason that it's long and laborious, and above all you have to distinguish between the 'characteristics' of each shelter. And here we do that with FARS ...
In my test in Portugal I'm limiting my graphs to the Pro3/Pro3FARS because I'm looking for the gains of the Pro3FARS.
If I wanted to try and see this angle problem, the Pro3FARS wouldn't be part of the test because during periods prone to problems, it would upset the data that provides the added value for which it was designed. I would need at least 2 different passive shelters plus the Pro3.
You may not agree, but with 2 different techniques it's impossible, and with 2 passive shelters it's also impossible.
It's the trio principle in metrology. The third is there to confirm or refute one of the two.

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Re: Barani Meteoshield Pro III vs Davis FARS24H vs Apogee TS100
« Reply #14 on: December 05, 2024, 10:07:22 AM »
Active shelters make sense, and even on AWOS comparisons of passive and aspirational shields are practiced because of the common disadvantages of passive shields. Communications, military airports have passive and active shields.

Most passive shields suffer from accurate air temperature readings in low-angle solar radiation conditions. It gets even worse when the sun shines low. However, this disadvantage in the Barani is highly accentuated. More so even than in many multi-plate covers.

In Poland, we will be testing the Smart Cellino (in our climate), comparing it to the Apogee TS-100 and Davis FARS24H and Davis' passive small shield.

The gains of active shields can be seen when the wind is weak and when any passive one overheats. Barani has a problem with this even when we have 2-3 m/s. Then such qualities of Apogee TS100 are strongly emphasized. I doubt that the Barani Gen3FARS will achieve the performance of the TS-100 in harsh conditions and this is due to the design of the shield. Lest it be said that I consider the TS-100 a perfect design, because I don't.

What you write has long been discovered and it is known that in more scenarios active shields are more accurate than passive plastic ones. You may doubt that the Barani Meteoshield Pro III has major flaws and this is one of many. Another is snow and light wind, as we see in the charts below. There are even studies about it, that ventilated shields are advisable when albedo is high.

Take a close look at the charts below. We this winter as conditions permit will still show it on a 1 minute interval and precise synchronization of 1s loggers.

Think why active shields were created. If there were no differences, everyone would stay passive.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2024, 10:12:13 AM by Meteorology fan »
Ecowitt WS90 1.3.8, WS80 1.2.5, Ecowitt WS68, Ecowitt WH31EP/WH32EP, WH40, WH57, WN34L, WH51, WN34D, HP2560_C, HP2550_C, GW1100, GW2000. Davis Vantage Pro 2, Davis Vue, Davis 6313, Hongyuv WDS2E

PT1000 4-wire - Termio 2 (3x)

Barani Meteoshield Pro II, III, Davis FARS 24H, Apogee TS100

Offline tobyportugal

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Re: Barani Meteoshield Pro III vs Davis FARS24H vs Apogee TS100
« Reply #15 on: December 05, 2024, 10:47:51 AM »
In Poland, we will be testing the Smart Cellino (in our climate), comparing it to the Apogee TS-100 and Davis FARS24H and Davis' passive small shield.

Think why active shields were created. If there were no differences, everyone would stay passive.

Well, that's just it... why compare 2 techniques? It's as stupid as comparing apples and pears.
If you have so many examples, what are you waiting for to publish precise and complete reports with all the elements: t°/HR - wind - radiation - solar elevation - etc.!

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Re: Barani Meteoshield Pro III vs Davis FARS24H vs Apogee TS100
« Reply #16 on: December 05, 2024, 10:59:59 AM »
Then why do you think they do a comparison of passive and active at airports? I know perfectly well, because I know the man who installed it. The considerations are well-known, given the disadvantages of passive shields.

Continue to believe that comparing readings between passive dials and active (in this case RM Young) does not make sense?

https://www.youngusa.com/product/aspirated-radiation-shield/
« Last Edit: December 05, 2024, 11:02:16 AM by Meteorology fan »
Ecowitt WS90 1.3.8, WS80 1.2.5, Ecowitt WS68, Ecowitt WH31EP/WH32EP, WH40, WH57, WN34L, WH51, WN34D, HP2560_C, HP2550_C, GW1100, GW2000. Davis Vantage Pro 2, Davis Vue, Davis 6313, Hongyuv WDS2E

PT1000 4-wire - Termio 2 (3x)

Barani Meteoshield Pro II, III, Davis FARS 24H, Apogee TS100

Offline mauro63

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Re: Barani Meteoshield Pro III vs Davis FARS24H vs Apogee TS100
« Reply #17 on: December 05, 2024, 12:11:59 PM »
My two cents, but without the desire to enter into controversy and therefore avoiding direct diatribe

active screens undoubtedly have a notable advantage in some particular situations, and this is undeniable.
It is possible to extend their superiority, or at least limit some of their defects only in professional environments, where, when it is possible, through specific energy balance calculation software, to manage their ventilation and the threshold of its intervention.

There are still some major limitations in their use at a professional level where they are not discouraged but it remains necessary to be combined with passive verification systems, either for a discussion related to the homogeneity of the data with the past ones, or because there are situations, especially when the ventilated one uses a ducted sensor and with forced suction from below, in which it shows limits and measurement errors.

M.

Offline tobyportugal

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Re: Barani Meteoshield Pro III vs Davis FARS24H vs Apogee TS100
« Reply #18 on: December 05, 2024, 12:52:17 PM »
Then why do you think they do a comparison of passive and active at airports? I know perfectly well, because I know the man who installed it. The considerations are well-known, given the disadvantages of passive shields.

Continue to believe that comparing readings between passive dials and active (in this case RM Young) does not make sense?

https://www.youngusa.com/product/aspirated-radiation-shield/

You're being stubborn: an airport doesn't have fun comparing shelters, they're only there so that one can make up for the 'shortcomings' of the others and vice versa and to ensure continuity of information.
The same goes for anemometers, the classics with sonics, because both have their advantages and disadvantages.
It's not a question of knocking a plane off its feet. The sensors are doubled or tripled in several places!
A weather system at Madeira airport will not be the same as the one at Oslo; they are specific to each airport.


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Re: Barani Meteoshield Pro III vs Davis FARS24H vs Apogee TS100
« Reply #19 on: December 05, 2024, 01:02:16 PM »
@tobyportugal - artificial intelligence in the form of ChatGPT has explained you somewhat.

If you’ve observed overheating of the Barani Gen III compared to the WMO screen at low solar angles, several design and environmental factors could explain this:

Possible Causes of Overheating in Barani Gen III:

1. Shield Geometry and Plate Design:

The structure of Barani shields may lead to greater absorption of radiation under certain conditions. If the plates reflect or concentrate sunlight onto the sensor, overheating can occur, especially at low sun angles.

2. Material of the Shield:

The materials used in Barani may have a higher radiation absorption coefficient than those in the WMO screen, causing the shield’s surface to heat up and transfer warmth to the sensor.

3. Lack of Passive Ventilation:

At low solar angles and under weak wind conditions, natural ventilation might be insufficient, leading to localized overheating inside the shield.

4. Ground Reflections (Albedo Effect):

Low-angle sunlight may reflect off bright surfaces (snow, sand), increasing the heat load on the shield and causing additional warming.

WMO Screen as a Benchmark:

WMO-compliant screens are designed to minimize the effects of solar radiation, wind, and humidity. If Barani Gen III shows overheating compared to a WMO screen, this suggests that the Barani shield might struggle to manage solar influence effectively in some conditions.

Conclusion:

Your observation confirms that Barani Gen III may have issues coping with low solar angles, leading to overheating. Comparative tests with a WMO screen provide valuable insights into this problem and can highlight when it may be beneficial to use active shields or better-designed passive ones.

Why Use Active Radiation Shields at Commercial Airports?

Active radiation shields are not used at commercial airports for comparison with passive ones but to ensure the highest accuracy and continuity of measurements under various weather conditions. Several key reasons justify their use:

1. Minimizing Measurement Errors:

• Precise meteorological data is crucial for flight safety, especially during takeoffs and landings.

• Active shields reduce the risk of sensor overheating in low wind and intense sunlight conditions, preventing inaccurate temperature readings.

2. Stable Measurements Regardless of Conditions:

• Airports often face changing weather, such as low sun angles, high albedo (snow), fog, or calm winds.

• Active shields ensure a constant airflow, allowing for accurate measurements even under challenging conditions.

3. Redundancy and Reliability:

• Doubling or tripling sensors, including both active and passive shields, provides redundancy. This allows for cross-checking data and identifying anomalies.

• If one method fails, the other can still deliver reliable data, ensuring safety.

4. Adaptation to Local Conditions:

• Different airports have specific needs based on their locations. For example:

• Oslo: Low temperatures, snow, and high albedo increase the need for active shields.

• Madeira: Strong sunlight and variable winds also justify the use of active shields.

5. Regulations and Standards:

• Accuracy requirements for meteorological measurements at airports are regulated by international organizations like ICAO and WMO. Active shields help meet these standards.

Conclusion: Active radiation shields at commercial airports are not a luxury but a necessity. Their presence ensures accurate, reliable, and continuous measurements in all conditions, which is crucial for the safety and efficiency of airport operations.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2024, 01:04:58 PM by Meteorology fan »
Ecowitt WS90 1.3.8, WS80 1.2.5, Ecowitt WS68, Ecowitt WH31EP/WH32EP, WH40, WH57, WN34L, WH51, WN34D, HP2560_C, HP2550_C, GW1100, GW2000. Davis Vantage Pro 2, Davis Vue, Davis 6313, Hongyuv WDS2E

PT1000 4-wire - Termio 2 (3x)

Barani Meteoshield Pro II, III, Davis FARS 24H, Apogee TS100

Offline Jasper3012

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Re: Barani Meteoshield Pro III vs Davis FARS24H vs Apogee TS100
« Reply #20 on: December 05, 2024, 01:44:53 PM »
You are overcomplicating it, if the sun is at a low sun angle and the Barani shield design offers insufficient protection from the sun rays (via the open bottom for example), then the sun can indirectly heat the interior of the shield, including the sensor. I don’t understand why you keep doubting this effect, it’s been shown to happen very clearly multiple times, including this one very good example I recorded on the 27th of Aug: https://meteo-be.net/nl/grafieken/male-brugge/custom_day/2024-08-26T22:00Z

Conditions at the time were a full blue sky with sun and little to no wind, the ideal combination for this to occur.

Why is this? Quite simply, no one is presenting irrefutable and repeated evidence.
What is a low sun? 15°, 10°, 5° in what azimuth?
You put forward a design 'problem', i.e. a tangible, fixed element with which it is easy to identify the exact contexts, provided that all the parameters are precise. What do we see every time? Deviation curves without the rest. 
What's more, trying to prove this type of problem with active shelters is stupid - they're two different techniques.
You admit (quite rightly) that a FARS is more reactive under certain conditions, and you put forward a theory based on two different ways of measuring.
Do you think this is a rational approach? I don't (no personal attacks  ;)).
Who has made this type of observation against other passive shelters (Comet, Rad02, Rad14, Siap, etc...) for 365 days to cover all possible scenarios. Nobody I know of has done this, for the simple reason that it's long and laborious, and above all you have to distinguish between the 'characteristics' of each shelter. And here we do that with FARS ...
In my test in Portugal I'm limiting my graphs to the Pro3/Pro3FARS because I'm looking for the gains of the Pro3FARS.
If I wanted to try and see this angle problem, the Pro3FARS wouldn't be part of the test because during periods prone to problems, it would upset the data that provides the added value for which it was designed. I would need at least 2 different passive shelters plus the Pro3.
You may not agree, but with 2 different techniques it's impossible, and with 2 passive shelters it's also impossible.
It's the trio principle in metrology. The third is there to confirm or refute one of the two.

How is it stupid to compare to an active shelter? The Davis has a near zero error during low angle sunshine and is therefore a good reference to use during such scenarios. Of course, the Davis will drop in temperature faster due to the shorter time constant associated with the active ventilation, but it does not explain the full 2C+ sometimes observed. If solar radiation wasn't playing a part here, we'd be seeing the exact same differences during rapid nighttime drops and yet we don't. Kallo from Italy has observed this same effect with his comparison between the SC and the Barani multiple times, so there's your passive vs passive comparison. It's clear as daylight there is some sort of undesirable effect going on with the Barani. I'm also not sure why you're so focused on exact values of certain parameters, like the solar angle for example. How does it matter if we don't know the exact solar angle this occurs at, for example? The point of these tests is to find out the general conditions this effect occurs in, the goal isn't to find out whether this occurs at an 8 or 9° solar angle.

Offline Meteorology fan

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Re: Barani Meteoshield Pro III vs Davis FARS24H vs Apogee TS100
« Reply #21 on: December 05, 2024, 02:04:40 PM »
Jasper3012 - You are absolutely right here, and this overestimation effect correlates not only with solar radiation, angle of incidence, but also wind speed and wind direction. We will be in Poland to see if the Smart Cellino is much better in this field than the Barani Meteoshield Pro III against the Davis FARS24H and Apogee TS100.

I have received comments on the apparent overheating of the Barani Ms Pro III from dozens of people in Poland. Previously, it was thought to be a delay relative to the full-fledged WMO Stevenson Screnn. Then it was tested with Davis FARS24H and Apogee TS100 in different regions of Poland and at different altitudes. Everywhere this defect of the Barani was revealed by these aspiration shields.

Interestingly, multi-plate shields (like the one in the photo below) at low radiation angles performed better than the Barani. Of course, it is a different shield and much slower than the Ms Pro III, but it does not have such strongly accentuated disadvantages.

The Barani shield in its passive version in many regions of the world without active ventilation will not replace the WMO Screnn. We did long-term tests and in winter the WMO cage in snow and low wind, having double louvers proved better than the Barani Meteoshield Pro III.

We will be checking out the SmartCellino, as we need to have a good class passive shield, given a lot of flaws in the Barani Meteoshield Pro III, which can be annoying. Not only this flaw with the low angle, but a pronounced wet-bulb effect and sometimes some strange behavior with humidity readings.



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Barani Meteoshield Pro II, III, Davis FARS 24H, Apogee TS100

Offline tobyportugal

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Re: Barani Meteoshield Pro III vs Davis FARS24H vs Apogee TS100
« Reply #22 on: December 05, 2024, 04:01:55 PM »
You are overcomplicating it, if the sun is at a low sun angle and the Barani shield design offers insufficient protection from the sun rays (via the open bottom for example), then the sun can indirectly heat the interior of the shield, including the sensor. I don’t understand why you keep doubting this effect, it’s been shown to happen very clearly multiple times, including this one very good example I recorded on the 27th of Aug: https://meteo-be.net/nl/grafieken/male-brugge/custom_day/2024-08-26T22:00Z

Conditions at the time were a full blue sky with sun and little to no wind, the ideal combination for this to occur.

Why is this? Quite simply, no one is presenting irrefutable and repeated evidence.
What is a low sun? 15°, 10°, 5° in what azimuth?
You put forward a design 'problem', i.e. a tangible, fixed element with which it is easy to identify the exact contexts, provided that all the parameters are precise. What do we see every time? Deviation curves without the rest. 
What's more, trying to prove this type of problem with active shelters is stupid - they're two different techniques.
You admit (quite rightly) that a FARS is more reactive under certain conditions, and you put forward a theory based on two different ways of measuring.
Do you think this is a rational approach? I don't (no personal attacks  ;)).
Who has made this type of observation against other passive shelters (Comet, Rad02, Rad14, Siap, etc...) for 365 days to cover all possible scenarios. Nobody I know of has done this, for the simple reason that it's long and laborious, and above all you have to distinguish between the 'characteristics' of each shelter. And here we do that with FARS ...
In my test in Portugal I'm limiting my graphs to the Pro3/Pro3FARS because I'm looking for the gains of the Pro3FARS.
If I wanted to try and see this angle problem, the Pro3FARS wouldn't be part of the test because during periods prone to problems, it would upset the data that provides the added value for which it was designed. I would need at least 2 different passive shelters plus the Pro3.
You may not agree, but with 2 different techniques it's impossible, and with 2 passive shelters it's also impossible.
It's the trio principle in metrology. The third is there to confirm or refute one of the two.

How is it stupid to compare to an active shelter? The Davis has a near zero error during low angle sunshine and is therefore a good reference to use during such scenarios. Of course, the Davis will drop in temperature faster due to the shorter time constant associated with the active ventilation, but it does not explain the full 2C+ sometimes observed. If solar radiation wasn't playing a part here, we'd be seeing the exact same differences during rapid nighttime drops and yet we don't. Kallo from Italy has observed this same effect with his comparison between the SC and the Barani multiple times, so there's your passive vs passive comparison. It's clear as daylight there is some sort of undesirable effect going on with the Barani. I'm also not sure why you're so focused on exact values of certain parameters, like the solar angle for example. How does it matter if we don't know the exact solar angle this occurs at, for example? The point of these tests is to find out the general conditions this effect occurs in, the goal isn't to find out whether this occurs at an 8 or 9° solar angle.

I "focus" on precise elements for the simple reason that the position of the sun is not the same for you in Belgium as it is for me in Portugal or Italy.
The winds are the same, the humidity is the same, etc. Science loves precision!
When you want to pinpoint a phenomenon that can be TOTALLY different from one place to another, precision is essential... otherwise you end up reading some unbelievable stuff. I think you've spoken out against this on several occasions.
Triangular geometry is fixed for everyone, so 8° is at 8.35am in Poland, 9.50am in Brugge, 8.30am in Riminni, 9.10am in Toulouse, 10.00am in Brest and 7.42am at home in Portugal. No need for precision?

Offline tobyportugal

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Re: Barani Meteoshield Pro III vs Davis FARS24H vs Apogee TS100
« Reply #23 on: December 05, 2024, 04:08:58 PM »
@tobyportugal - artificial intelligence in the form of ChatGPT has explained you somewhat.

Pas possible de lire ce genre de propos, un gars qui joue avec un brol ChatGPT et qui pretend être rigoureux...
On est dans le domaine de la science ou du virtuel à la mode geek?
Je vous laisse et demander la traduction à votre copain.

Offline Jasper3012

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Re: Barani Meteoshield Pro III vs Davis FARS24H vs Apogee TS100
« Reply #24 on: December 05, 2024, 05:00:45 PM »
You are overcomplicating it, if the sun is at a low sun angle and the Barani shield design offers insufficient protection from the sun rays (via the open bottom for example), then the sun can indirectly heat the interior of the shield, including the sensor. I don’t understand why you keep doubting this effect, it’s been shown to happen very clearly multiple times, including this one very good example I recorded on the 27th of Aug: https://meteo-be.net/nl/grafieken/male-brugge/custom_day/2024-08-26T22:00Z

Conditions at the time were a full blue sky with sun and little to no wind, the ideal combination for this to occur.

Why is this? Quite simply, no one is presenting irrefutable and repeated evidence.
What is a low sun? 15°, 10°, 5° in what azimuth?
You put forward a design 'problem', i.e. a tangible, fixed element with which it is easy to identify the exact contexts, provided that all the parameters are precise. What do we see every time? Deviation curves without the rest. 
What's more, trying to prove this type of problem with active shelters is stupid - they're two different techniques.
You admit (quite rightly) that a FARS is more reactive under certain conditions, and you put forward a theory based on two different ways of measuring.
Do you think this is a rational approach? I don't (no personal attacks  ;)).
Who has made this type of observation against other passive shelters (Comet, Rad02, Rad14, Siap, etc...) for 365 days to cover all possible scenarios. Nobody I know of has done this, for the simple reason that it's long and laborious, and above all you have to distinguish between the 'characteristics' of each shelter. And here we do that with FARS ...
In my test in Portugal I'm limiting my graphs to the Pro3/Pro3FARS because I'm looking for the gains of the Pro3FARS.
If I wanted to try and see this angle problem, the Pro3FARS wouldn't be part of the test because during periods prone to problems, it would upset the data that provides the added value for which it was designed. I would need at least 2 different passive shelters plus the Pro3.
You may not agree, but with 2 different techniques it's impossible, and with 2 passive shelters it's also impossible.
It's the trio principle in metrology. The third is there to confirm or refute one of the two.

How is it stupid to compare to an active shelter? The Davis has a near zero error during low angle sunshine and is therefore a good reference to use during such scenarios. Of course, the Davis will drop in temperature faster due to the shorter time constant associated with the active ventilation, but it does not explain the full 2C+ sometimes observed. If solar radiation wasn't playing a part here, we'd be seeing the exact same differences during rapid nighttime drops and yet we don't. Kallo from Italy has observed this same effect with his comparison between the SC and the Barani multiple times, so there's your passive vs passive comparison. It's clear as daylight there is some sort of undesirable effect going on with the Barani. I'm also not sure why you're so focused on exact values of certain parameters, like the solar angle for example. How does it matter if we don't know the exact solar angle this occurs at, for example? The point of these tests is to find out the general conditions this effect occurs in, the goal isn't to find out whether this occurs at an 8 or 9° solar angle.

I "focus" on precise elements for the simple reason that the position of the sun is not the same for you in Belgium as it is for me in Portugal or Italy.
The winds are the same, the humidity is the same, etc. Science loves precision!
When you want to pinpoint a phenomenon that can be TOTALLY different from one place to another, precision is essential... otherwise you end up reading some unbelievable stuff. I think you've spoken out against this on several occasions.
Triangular geometry is fixed for everyone, so 8° is at 8.35am in Poland, 9.50am in Brugge, 8.30am in Riminni, 9.10am in Toulouse, 10.00am in Brest and 7.42am at home in Portugal. No need for precision?

My point is that you shouldn’t be so dismissive toward ppl studying this effect bc they don’t have all the data at the time of observation. I get the impression that you are not taking this phenomenon seriously bc we don’t have all the data for every single, relevant parameter when the correct response would be to try to dive deeper and possibly even do some research on your own.

 

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