Author Topic: Barani MS Pro vs SmartCellino radiation shield comparison  (Read 121298 times)

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Offline mauro63

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Re: Barani MS Pro vs SmartCellino radiation shield comparison
« Reply #75 on: October 15, 2024, 10:47:08 AM »
Fortunately, we have some stations that allow a correct analysis of this problem.

Personally, I have no problem admitting it, in my station this is not possible because, despite being on grass, it suffers from some disturbances due to the presence of plants but, above all, of a house, albeit of modest height, which limits solar radiation in the early hours of the morning.

Probably, at the beginning of 2025, I will be able to have a remote installation, in an open field, which I would estimate in class 2 according to the WMO classification, and which will be managed thanks to the Ecowitt ws-6210, I hope to be able to improve these aspects and be able to provide more reliable data

Humility, as always ;)

M.

Offline tobyportugal

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Re: Barani MS Pro vs SmartCellino radiation shield comparison
« Reply #76 on: October 15, 2024, 12:25:18 PM »
Always respecting the lack of knowledge of the measurand,  let's say that it is possible that the pro may have suffered from lateral solar radiation due to the low angle of elevation of the sun.

the fact that the siap does not suffered from it does not mean that it is exempt from it, it will have to be evaluated as the angles vary over time
the problem certainly exists and cannot be ignored, we simply need to verify its extent and variations over time

M.

You take route "A", I'll take route "B", because when there are two Barani at the same time, one of whom suffers from the pheomene seen at Marco's, you can't be 100% sure that it's the Barani in this case.
The context is identical to what I've observed at home: high night-time humidity, early radiation, autumn, little wind.
If Marco received the Siap in the spring, he must have experienced the same phenomenon.
At the time you didn't believe in my 'theory', but since all my sensors have been modified, this phenomenon hasn't appeared and hasn't for 2 years. I think you're familiar with my set-ups and seeing the photos, you won't find any Colson's, taps, sensors too low, too high, non-perpendicular set-ups, etc... I even have double sensors to detect errors, which is how my SHT45s were 'validated'.
As I'm even lower than Marco, if solar flare were the only cause, the phenomenon would be almost invisible in my area and those to the north would have to deal with it more strongly.
I'm not saying that the phenomenon of low sun doesn't exist, but I am saying that certain SHT set-ups amplify the phenomenon when the conditions are right: nocturnal humidity, low sun, onset of radiation.

For the anecdote, I've been interested in humidity with my AQI detectors where you learn a lot about humidity and Portugal (centre) is a humid region, certain reactions are amplified.
Obviously humidity doesn't interest amateurs, but whether you like it or not, humidity can change the temperature up or down and will influence measurements if the humidity isn't 'evacuated' naturally because it's trapped.
In Marco's case (I'm voluntarily excluding myself) we have a few certainties: low sun, little wind, early radiation and we have one uncertainty: the temperature is lower because of a lack of radiation on the shelter or because of an increase in humidity which lowers the temperature.
It's a pity that the problem is always in the same direction.

Offline Jasper3012

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Re: Barani MS Pro vs SmartCellino radiation shield comparison
« Reply #77 on: October 15, 2024, 12:48:47 PM »
Who is this Marco? And clearly, the low sun thing has little to nothing to do with the sensor as I’ve recorded the exact same thing with an NTC thermistor. It’s also not particularly a morning thing with high humidity, I’ve recorded the same effect in the evening with low humidity.

Offline tobyportugal

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Re: Barani MS Pro vs SmartCellino radiation shield comparison
« Reply #78 on: October 15, 2024, 12:50:37 PM »
Who is this Marco? And clearly, the low sun thing has little to nothing to do with the sensor as I’ve recorded the exact same thing with an NTC thermistor. It’s also not particularly a morning thing with high humidity, I’ve recorded the same effect in the evening with low humidity.
Marco = Kallo78  ;)

Offline tobyportugal

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Re: Barani MS Pro vs SmartCellino radiation shield comparison
« Reply #79 on: October 15, 2024, 12:57:54 PM »
Who is this Marco? And clearly, the low sun thing has little to nothing to do with the sensor as I’ve recorded the exact same thing with an NTC thermistor. It’s also not particularly a morning thing with high humidity, I’ve recorded the same effect in the evening with low humidity.

An NTC does not record humidity, so how can you be sure?
Sorry a questionable argument without the actual humidity in the shelter

Offline Jasper3012

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Re: Barani MS Pro vs SmartCellino radiation shield comparison
« Reply #80 on: October 15, 2024, 01:27:25 PM »
Who is this Marco? And clearly, the low sun thing has little to nothing to do with the sensor as I’ve recorded the exact same thing with an NTC thermistor. It’s also not particularly a morning thing with high humidity, I’ve recorded the same effect in the evening with low humidity.

An NTC does not record humidity, so how can you be sure?
Sorry a questionable argument without the actual humidity in the shelter

I don’t even need a humidity sensor to know the air wasn’t near saturation at the end of a sunny summer’s day, that just doesn’t happen here. My nearby station had a dewpoint of 14-15C at the time and a temp of 19-20C.

Offline tobyportugal

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Re: Barani MS Pro vs SmartCellino radiation shield comparison
« Reply #81 on: October 15, 2024, 02:50:17 PM »
I don’t even need a humidity sensor to know the air wasn’t near saturation at the end of a sunny summer’s day, that just doesn’t happen here. My nearby station had a dewpoint of 14-15C at the time and a temp of 19-20C.

It's not possible, in the case of an inconsistency between shelters, it's what's happening inside the shelters that's needed and not at 5m, 50m, 500m, 5km!

Offline mauro63

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Re: Barani MS Pro vs SmartCellino radiation shield comparison
« Reply #82 on: October 15, 2024, 03:33:09 PM »
Just to point out that, at Marco station there are, in addition to the Siap, two Pros, one is a pro3 one is a third generation pro3 with the latest modifications
this is the same graph with the modified pro3 added

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regards

M.

Offline Jasper3012

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Re: Barani MS Pro vs SmartCellino radiation shield comparison
« Reply #83 on: October 15, 2024, 04:18:06 PM »
What are these "modifications"? Is this the FARS version, or another passive? It seems to reduce the error quite significantly, at first sight.

Offline mauro63

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Re: Barani MS Pro vs SmartCellino radiation shield comparison
« Reply #84 on: October 15, 2024, 04:30:00 PM »
What are these "modifications"? Is this the FARS version, or another passive? It seems to reduce the error quite significantly, at first sight.

No, if you pay attention pro3 new has about the same performances of pro3

some little improvements regarding the black lower parts, nothing more

M.

Offline Jasper3012

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Re: Barani MS Pro vs SmartCellino radiation shield comparison
« Reply #85 on: October 15, 2024, 04:36:58 PM »
Ah yes, I was misreading the graph. Still seems to have that rather big error, compared to the SmartCellino.

Offline Jasper3012

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Re: Barani MS Pro vs SmartCellino radiation shield comparison
« Reply #86 on: October 15, 2024, 04:52:41 PM »
I must say that it’s looking really good for the SC so far… If it can match the performance of the Barani during moderate to strong wind, which it is doing so far, and eliminate the low sun angle issue the Barani has, then we could be looking at an excellent shield with not many flaws at all. One thing I’m curious to see is the performance during low wind, sun and snowcover, as that’s typically the most challenging for passive shields. Knowing my climate though, it only properly snows here once every few years, so I may not be able to test it in the coming winter.

Offline Meteorology fan

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Re: Barani MS Pro vs SmartCellino radiation shield comparison
« Reply #87 on: October 16, 2024, 01:19:32 AM »
I look forward to more reports from SmartCellino, as I have become curious about this shield relative to the Barani Meteoshield Pro III. I know myself and colleagues in Poland have many disadvantages of the Barani Gen III and I am not satisfied with this shield and its performance. Especially at a low angle of incidence when we have solar radiation and a fairly weak wind up to 2-3 m/s. The weaker the wind blows, the error induced by the Barani Gen III gets bigger and bigger.

From our tests on the SHT35 unfiltered and PT1000 calibrated sensors, it came out that even the large Metspec shield did better when the rays came from the side into the shield. I also wonder if the SC suffers from as much wet bulb effect as the Barani Meteoshield Pro III on windless nights, which I could sometimes observe with the Gen III.

Probably the performance of the SC in low wind and snow conditions will not be as good as that of the Davis FARS24H and Apogee TS100 as with artificial ventilation, but it may be slightly better than that of the Barani Meteoshield Pro III, which in winter with low wind, high albedo and low solar angle during high pressure centre interaction generated errors of up to 2 degrees or more relative to the Stevenson WMO cage, Apogee TS100 and Davis FARS24H.

I'm curious to see what Jan Barani Gen III has improved in his shield, but I'm leaning more towards SC to have a comparison with the Apogee TS100 and Davis FARS24H. I have two copies of this Barani cowl and I can see that each of them (production 2023) suffers from the same thing. In autumn and winter, this can affect the maximum measured values, and sometimes even the minimum.

« Last Edit: October 16, 2024, 01:22:44 AM by Meteorology fan »
Ecowitt WS90 1.3.8, WS80 1.2.5, Ecowitt WS68, Ecowitt WH31EP/WH32EP, WH40, WH57, WN34L, WH51, WN34D, HP2560_C, HP2550_C, GW1100, GW2000. Davis Vantage Pro 2, Davis Vue, Davis 6313, Hongyuv WDS2E

PT1000 4-wire - Termio 2 (3x)

Barani Meteoshield Pro II, III, Davis FARS 24H, Apogee TS100

Offline Jasper3012

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Re: Barani MS Pro vs SmartCellino radiation shield comparison
« Reply #88 on: October 16, 2024, 01:29:41 AM »
I look forward to more reports from SmartCellino, as I have become curious about this shield relative to the Barani Meteoshield Pro III. I know myself and colleagues in Poland have many disadvantages of the Barani Gen III and I am not satisfied with this shield and its performance. Especially at a low angle of incidence when we have solar radiation and a fairly weak wind up to 2-3 m/s. The weaker the wind blows, the error induced by the Barani Gen III gets bigger and bigger.

From our tests on the SHT35 unfiltered and PT1000 calibrated sensors, it came out that even the large Metspec shield did better when the rays came from the side into the shield. I also wonder if the SC suffers from as much wet bulb effect as the Barani Meteoshield Pro III on windless nights, which I could sometimes observe with the Gen III.

Probably the performance of the SC in low wind and snow conditions will not be as good as that of the Davis FARS24H and Apogee TS100 as with artificial ventilation, but it may be slightly better than that of the Barani Meteoshield Pro III, which in winter with low wind, high albedo and low solar angle during high pressure centre interaction generated errors of up to 2 degrees or more relative to the Stevenson WMO cage, Apogee TS100 and Davis FARS24H.

I'm curious to see what Jan Barani Gen III has improved in his shield, but I'm leaning more towards SC to have a comparison with the Apogee TS100 and Davis FARS24H. I have two copies of this Barani cowl and I can see that each of them (production 2023) suffers from the same thing. In autumn and winter, this can affect the maximum measured values, and sometimes even the minimum.


I think you’ve repeated this exact same point about the MS Pro about a trillion times now on this forum? Seriously, you don’t need to mention it in every single post lol. Time will have to tell how well the SC does in the most challenging conditions, but like I said, I may not even be able to test it, as I don’t get much snow. Snow with light wind and sunshine is even more rare here, that last occurred Feb 2021, Jan 2019 before that and Jan 2013 before that… So yes, wish me luck.

Offline tobyportugal

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Re: Barani MS Pro vs SmartCellino radiation shield comparison
« Reply #89 on: October 16, 2024, 01:30:48 AM »
some little improvements regarding the black lower parts, nothing more

M.

Can we have a photo of the modifications?
After that, I'm leaving this forum where most of the discussion is about PTs for refrigeration engineers and a TS assembled like a "bad apprentice" handyman.
Thank you

Offline Meteorology fan

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Re: Barani MS Pro vs SmartCellino radiation shield comparison
« Reply #90 on: October 16, 2024, 01:39:41 AM »
I am simply curious to see if SC will solve the problem known with Barani Gen III. I've invested a lot of money and am looking for an alternative, as I'll probably sell the Barani shield easily to someone who doesn't know about these drawbacks. Another issue is the PT1000 for refrigeration and pharmaceutical engineers are good sensors. I can show you monthly comparisons in a while of what it shows in t-min and t-max of PT1000 my calibrated and SHT35 without filters. You can see that @tobyportugal has never had these sensors from this company in his life and questioning the results from them is pointless. The first better t-max result from yesterday at Barani and Davis FARS24H SHT35 and PT1000.

I plan to make the Apogee TS100 smart, on the mast it's already there, now just for the days I'll clamp the power supply and sensors together for testing and will test different settings with the PT1000 and SHT35. The budget is to make Apogee fully smart, even with an electrician friend.
Ecowitt WS90 1.3.8, WS80 1.2.5, Ecowitt WS68, Ecowitt WH31EP/WH32EP, WH40, WH57, WN34L, WH51, WN34D, HP2560_C, HP2550_C, GW1100, GW2000. Davis Vantage Pro 2, Davis Vue, Davis 6313, Hongyuv WDS2E

PT1000 4-wire - Termio 2 (3x)

Barani Meteoshield Pro II, III, Davis FARS 24H, Apogee TS100

Offline Kallo78

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Re: Barani MS Pro vs SmartCellino radiation shield comparison
« Reply #91 on: October 16, 2024, 02:40:49 AM »
My report of yesterday and chart that also includes the modified Pro3

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Offline Meteorology fan

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Re: Barani MS Pro vs SmartCellino radiation shield comparison
« Reply #92 on: October 16, 2024, 02:50:37 AM »
@kallo78 - SC looks better around 9am. Do you know how long the modified Meteoshield Pro 3 has been on sale. I have the last copy purchased in December 2023.
Ecowitt WS90 1.3.8, WS80 1.2.5, Ecowitt WS68, Ecowitt WH31EP/WH32EP, WH40, WH57, WN34L, WH51, WN34D, HP2560_C, HP2550_C, GW1100, GW2000. Davis Vantage Pro 2, Davis Vue, Davis 6313, Hongyuv WDS2E

PT1000 4-wire - Termio 2 (3x)

Barani Meteoshield Pro II, III, Davis FARS 24H, Apogee TS100

Offline Kallo78

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Re: Barani MS Pro vs SmartCellino radiation shield comparison
« Reply #93 on: October 16, 2024, 03:14:43 AM »
@kallo78 - SC looks better around 9am. Do you know how long the modified Meteoshield Pro 3 has been on sale. I have the last copy purchased in December 2023.

You probably already have the latest version, the changes concern the internal upper part to which a baffle has been added.
However, if you pay attention to the graph and what happens at 9 AM you will notice that pro3 and modified pro3 have extremely similar behavior.

I can assure you it is not DIY modification

Offline Meteorology fan

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Re: Barani MS Pro vs SmartCellino radiation shield comparison
« Reply #94 on: October 16, 2024, 04:01:59 AM »
kallo78 - that is, it did not really further solve this problem about sunrises and sunsets when wind is weak. I like to see the actual or near air temperature and not the temperature of the shield.
Ecowitt WS90 1.3.8, WS80 1.2.5, Ecowitt WS68, Ecowitt WH31EP/WH32EP, WH40, WH57, WN34L, WH51, WN34D, HP2560_C, HP2550_C, GW1100, GW2000. Davis Vantage Pro 2, Davis Vue, Davis 6313, Hongyuv WDS2E

PT1000 4-wire - Termio 2 (3x)

Barani Meteoshield Pro II, III, Davis FARS 24H, Apogee TS100

Offline Meteorology fan

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Re: Barani MS Pro vs SmartCellino radiation shield comparison
« Reply #95 on: October 16, 2024, 05:36:11 AM »
Hence, as there is a budget, it is worth going for comparisons next to SC in Apogee TS100 and expand after time into smart solutions.
Ecowitt WS90 1.3.8, WS80 1.2.5, Ecowitt WS68, Ecowitt WH31EP/WH32EP, WH40, WH57, WN34L, WH51, WN34D, HP2560_C, HP2550_C, GW1100, GW2000. Davis Vantage Pro 2, Davis Vue, Davis 6313, Hongyuv WDS2E

PT1000 4-wire - Termio 2 (3x)

Barani Meteoshield Pro II, III, Davis FARS 24H, Apogee TS100

Offline mauro63

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Re: Barani MS Pro vs SmartCellino radiation shield comparison
« Reply #96 on: October 16, 2024, 07:24:22 AM »
Hence, as there is a budget, it is worth going for comparisons next to SC in Apogee TS100 and expand after time into smart solutions.

if you need information you can write to me privately, Siap+Micros does not sell to the public outside of an existing agreement and that I manage, there are no authorized resellers

M.

Offline mauro63

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Re: Barani MS Pro vs SmartCellino radiation shield comparison
« Reply #97 on: October 16, 2024, 07:38:17 AM »
Hence, as there is a budget, it is worth going for comparisons next to SC in Apogee TS100 and expand after time into smart solutions.

if you need information you can write to me privately, Siap+Micros does not sell to the public outside of an existing agreement and that I manage, there are no authorized resellers

M.

 \:D/ \:D/ we knew that so we should tell Siap to update itself,  say that  :grin: :grin:

obviously you can do

M.

Offline mauro63

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Re: Barani MS Pro vs SmartCellino radiation shield comparison
« Reply #98 on: October 16, 2024, 07:49:41 AM »
well, you have to cite the list of "resellers" then  :-P

answering you has become extremely boring, I stopped doing it on other sites where you have been banned several times, and I will stop doing it here too

good continuation

M.

Offline mauro63

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Re: Barani MS Pro vs SmartCellino radiation shield comparison
« Reply #99 on: October 16, 2024, 07:55:58 AM »
mine yesterday data

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M.

 

anything