Author Topic: Raw Barometer - Sea Level Pressure - Altimeter  (Read 9774 times)

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Offline Randall Kayfes

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Raw Barometer - Sea Level Pressure - Altimeter
« on: August 08, 2013, 09:26:36 PM »
I am searching-reading-researching on how to set up my Davis VP+ and Weatherlink to make everyone happy with my air pressure. I am convinced so much of this is unnecessary.  The hoops I have to jump through to make findu/CWOP happy baffles me.  I still do not know how my station is wrong but it is reporting pressure that is off set perfectly... by what and how I do not know. Davis reports what is does and findu/CWOP doesn't like it.  I read historical weather storm books and they report historical lows and I feel like I have to whip out a graphing calculator to figure out how my readings compare if I have to change to something other than SLP.

I do not know what normal is because we have made something that should be so simple an too complicated. I can only image that there are lots of people who set up their PWS and simply walk away from appropriate setup.  I try to search the answer on this forum (which I absolutely love) and I find I am not alone.  I think about the people who are not connected with this forum and I think they just must be saying to themselves "whatever!"  

It reminds me of the harddrive manufactures using gigabits and OS's using megabytes when really one standard form of measurement would suffice....

Raw Pressure (Actual Pressure) V. Sea Level Pressure - I get this makes sense to me (YMMV).  Setting a standard for differing location comparisons.

Raw Pressure (Actual Pressure) V. Altimeter - I do not get this makes no sense to me IF you can just set to SLP (YMMV).  Why add confusion and yet another conversion that must be made.

Do not get me wrong I love that findu/CWOP is there and recording my data. However MESONET reports station pressure and altimeter readings without any changes on my part. If I make changes to my setup that satisfies findu will my display now read differently - of course so my historical records will be out of whack.

I am done ranting.  I feel better... sort of.




Offline Old Tele man

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Re: Raw Barometer - Sea Level Pressure - Altimeter
« Reply #1 on: August 08, 2013, 10:23:53 PM »
I hear your pain...and agree 100%...DAVIS™ doesn't "play well" with the other CWOP / MADIS / MesoWest "kiddies" in the internet "weather" sandbox, hence my SLP-to-STN exercise post!
• SYS: Davis VP2 Vue/WL-IP & Envoy8X/WL-USB;
• DBX2 & DBX1 Precision Digital Barographs
• CWOP: DW6988 - 2 miles NNE of Cortaro, AZ
• WU - KAZTUCSO202, Countryside

Offline ArmySlowRdr

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Re: Raw Barometer - Sea Level Pressure - Altimeter
« Reply #2 on: August 08, 2013, 10:29:48 PM »
I think so far Ive only seen a red x once and that was on dew point.

No idea how they measure how I am doing as the nearest "pet" stations (the airports)  are not nearby.....and I am the only other CWOP station in town.

Offline Old Tele man

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Re: Raw Barometer - Sea Level Pressure - Altimeter
« Reply #3 on: August 08, 2013, 10:39:49 PM »
CWOP / MADIS / MesoWest / et.al. all expect barometric altimeter (ALT) values...DAVIS™ sends calculated sea level pressure (SLP) values, which are very close numerically (~ 0.996) to ALT values...so "errors" usually don't show up until large termperature changes occur and affect pressure, like summer & winter.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2013, 10:42:24 PM by Old Tele man »
• SYS: Davis VP2 Vue/WL-IP & Envoy8X/WL-USB;
• DBX2 & DBX1 Precision Digital Barographs
• CWOP: DW6988 - 2 miles NNE of Cortaro, AZ
• WU - KAZTUCSO202, Countryside

Offline aweatherguy

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Re: Raw Barometer - Sea Level Pressure - Altimeter
« Reply #4 on: September 03, 2013, 02:37:36 AM »
This has been explained 1000's of time before. I'll try again here to explain the difference in pressure readings. Others will correct mistakes I might make  :oops:

You already understand "raw" pressure. This is also called "station pressure".

What if you are a weatherman and want to draw a chart of pressure covering say all of Oregon? Your goal is to analyse varying pressure due to weather systems moving through your state. You have pressure reports from elevations at sea level to well over 10,000 feet. If you draw this chart using station pressure it will be distorted by the different elevations of the reporting stations. That's what sea level pressure is for. You adjust high elevation station reports to what they might read if the station was at sea level. The actual process is quite complicated and not always all that accurate. In fact there are several different ways to do the calculation which yield slightly different results. You need to know temperature, station pressure, altitude and for some conversion techniques, special correction factors specific to your location. Yuck.

Altimeter settings are for airplanes. The altimeter in an airplane is a glorified barometer, calibrated to read altitude instead of pressure. However, due to several non-ideal factors it will not read altitude accurately unless it is adjusted to account for local atmospheric conditions. That means pilots must periodically re-adjust their altimiters as they fly to keep up with changes in local conditions. Pilots just get a new setting on the radio, then turn a knob on the altimeter to accomplish this. Numerically, the conversion between station pressure and altimeter setting is much simpler than for sea level pressure, and there's only one formula -- not several different ones as with SLP.

The difference between altimeter and SLP values depends on several things, but primarily station pressure, temperature and altitude. At low elevations the differences are not all that great, but at elevations above 1000 feet they can be significant. If you live in Colorado at 5000 feet for example these differences can be rather large.

So, what is the problem with Davis?. Internally they measure station pressure. Then they perform their chosen version of the calculation to sea level pressure and then give you the result -- but you are not given access to the raw pressure level. (IMHO it is silly for a top-end outfit like Davis not to give you station pressure -- but they don't and all you can do is complain.)

CWOP wants altimeter setting because it is then easy for them to convert back to station pressure as they also know your altitude. But then, why don't they just ask for station pressure directly? You'd have to ask them...I'm clueless on that.

So given the Davis SLP reports, you need to first convert back to station pressure (that's the really hard part), then to altimeter for CWOP. I'm not familiar with WeatherLink...perhaps someone else can explain how to do this conversion with WeatherLink? Or if it is even possible? I'm just trying to help you understand the different ways that pressure is reported.

You could try subscribing to the CWOP mailing list and asking the question there -- if there's an answer, the folks there would know.

In summary, you should blame the complexity of barometer units on weathermen and pilots. Not that it would help...but you might feel better!


Offline Weather Display

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Re: Raw Barometer - Sea Level Pressure - Altimeter
« Reply #5 on: September 03, 2013, 02:48:18 AM »
the problem with readings from a station at altitude is not goign to show up for a station at alitude in Oregan
so much as it will show up for a station in Colorado...due to Colorado being in the middle of the contenant....where for miles around everthing is at altitude...and the weather is "lifted up" to that altitude....i.e a low or high pressure sitting over the area cant be extrapolated to sea level...as its has been distorted...
« Last Edit: September 03, 2013, 02:49:49 AM by Weather Display »
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Offline aweatherguy

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Re: Raw Barometer - Sea Level Pressure - Altimeter
« Reply #6 on: September 03, 2013, 03:03:08 AM »
Yes -- good point. Thanks for the addition. Have you seen this paper that examines issues with SLP calculations over the California Sierra Nevada mountains? Makes you realize how dicey the whole SLP thing is....

"An Example of Uncertainty in Sea Level Pressure Reduction", Patricia M. Pauley, Naval Postgraduate School
page 833, Sept 1988 of "Weather Forecasting"


Offline Old Tele man

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Re: Raw Barometer - Sea Level Pressure - Altimeter
« Reply #7 on: September 03, 2013, 05:07:14 PM »
Similarly, equations that rely upon "average" climatological values will ALWAYS be "incorrect" whenever daily temperatures and/or dewpoints trend either UPwards or DOWNwards...as seems to be happening under our current climate changes.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2013, 04:25:49 PM by Old Tele man »
• SYS: Davis VP2 Vue/WL-IP & Envoy8X/WL-USB;
• DBX2 & DBX1 Precision Digital Barographs
• CWOP: DW6988 - 2 miles NNE of Cortaro, AZ
• WU - KAZTUCSO202, Countryside

Offline W3DRM

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Re: Raw Barometer - Sea Level Pressure - Altimeter
« Reply #8 on: September 03, 2013, 08:40:57 PM »
Thanks for posting the info on this issue! Anyone living here in the northern part of Nevada and the SIERRA mountain range knows how difficult it is to accurately calibrate their barometers. I have a Davis VP2 and spent many hours trying to "chase" the barometer readings before I discovered VPLive, developed by Steve of SoftWX. That single package alone, keeps my CWOP data within the parameters they consider to be valid.

Someday, one can only hope that Davis will produce a product that correctly adjusts the barometric reading based on station altitude and the other data points necessary in the calculation.

A PDF version the report can be found at:


Don - W3DRM - Emmett, Idaho --- Blitzortung ID: 808 --- FlightRadar24 ID: F-KBOI7
Davis Wireless VP2, WD 10.37s150,
StartWatch, VirtualVP, VPLive, Win10 Pro
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Offline dj1111s

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Re: Raw Barometer - Sea Level Pressure - Altimeter
« Reply #9 on: September 22, 2013, 01:24:50 PM »
That single package alone, keeps my CWOP data within the parameters they consider to be valid.

Are these issues/difficulties with barometric pressure readings localized in certain parts of the country/world?  Or elevation?  I've been trying to understand better how CWOP rates data and found this thread to be the most informative yet.


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Offline dj1111s

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Re: Raw Barometer - Sea Level Pressure - Altimeter
« Reply #10 on: September 22, 2013, 05:23:59 PM »
Thank you. So far so good for me.  I have 2 thumbs up with an average error of -.2 mb.  Our local airport has an average error of -1.1 and is also getting 2 thumbs up.
Vantage Pro2 Plus W/FARS, wireless anemometer, bucket heater with temperature sensor. Envoy, VP2 and Vue consoles. Meteobridge. Weatherlink Live. AirLink. Soil and leaf station. Attic temp and humidity.
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Offline W3DRM

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Re: Raw Barometer - Sea Level Pressure - Altimeter
« Reply #11 on: September 23, 2013, 04:25:58 PM »
That single package alone, keeps my CWOP data within the parameters they consider to be valid.

Are these issues/difficulties with barometric pressure readings localized in certain parts of the country/world?  Or elevation?  I've been trying to understand better how CWOP rates data and found this thread to be the most informative yet.

Can't speak for others, but for me, this is a problem induced by DAVIS™ themselves, and aggrevated by the fact that I cannot make *my* station send ALT pressure data because DAVIS WLIP doesn't have such a provision...just SLP or "tricked" SLP (which is a "stupid" solution).

The readings only seem to become problematic for wx stations above something like 3000 feet ASL. The calculations to arrive at the correct reading include not only altitude and barometric pressure, but also temperature. VPLive takes all of this into consideration when providing the readings for CWOP.
Don - W3DRM - Emmett, Idaho --- Blitzortung ID: 808 --- FlightRadar24 ID: F-KBOI7
Davis Wireless VP2, WD 10.37s150,
StartWatch, VirtualVP, VPLive, Win10 Pro
--- Logitech HD Pro C920 webcam (off-line)
--- RIPE Atlas Probe - 32849

Offline Weather Display

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Re: Raw Barometer - Sea Level Pressure - Altimeter
« Reply #12 on: September 23, 2013, 04:31:37 PM »
just to note that there is an option on weather display to use altimeter pressure for CWOP
it uses the same routine as VPlive
Brian
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