Topic: VP2 tipping spoon raingauge?

[CW2274]

Scaled Instruments has the VP2 Tipping Spoon now. I just ordered one.

https://www.scaledinstruments.com/shop/davis-instruments/davis-7345-425-single-spoon-tipping-bucket-rain-collector-assembly-inches/

Greg H.

Yesterday it was the 2nd or 3rd time that the rain sensor went crazy and I had 3 inches/hour rain rate for like 10-15 minutes without actual rainfall (I had to fix it in the database). My guess it was the infamous stuck-in-the-middle problem with the tipping buckets.

A short will also cause this exact symptom.

[CW2274]

Hey Ryan, see you're logged in. Thanks for the quick turn on the speed cart for the anny. Thing works really well!

[kobuki]

Short of what, where? Is it possible moisture got in the tube? It should be able to cause this. It's OK now but the weather is pretty humid with occasional moderate rain.

[CW2274]

Short of what, where? Is it possible moisture got in the tube? It should be able to cause this. It's OK now but the weather is pretty humid with occasional moderate rain.

I honestly don't know. I just know that a short will do this as my Rainwise bucket that's hard wired to my ISS had one...thing went crazy.

[galfert]

translation:
short = electrical short circuit

[kobuki]

translation:
short = electrical short circuit

condescending = having or showing an attitude of patronizing superiority

[galfert]

translation:
short = electrical short circuit

condescending = having or showing an attitude of patronizing superiority

Well excuse me for trying to help you. You said, "short of what." From what I read it sounded like you were not understanding what CW2274 was saying. I was not being condescending. It seemed to me like there was a disconnect in understanding between two people. I understood what CW2274 said so I was trying to help.

[kobuki]

I have absolutely no idea why you think anyone here doesn't know what a(n electric) short is, but if you did try to help, my apologies.

That aside, I really don't know where to look for a short since the Reed tube and the SIM is connected using a short cable and while theoretically a short is possible along that wire and at the connector side, I highly doubt it's the cause. Though, it could be caused d by corrosion on the board or moisture getting in the tube. Those are examples of problems I've read about on this forum at least. There were quite a few lightning strikes at that time, but I don't think there's a relation - has anyone heard of such cases?

But I had no intention of derailing the thread with my problem, sorry about that, I'll open a new one at a later time.

[galfert]

Apology accepted. I see now that you did understand CW2274. For some reason it really didn't seem that way and when I saw CW2274's response saying that he honestly didn't know, I felt that it didn't clarify to you what a short was, so it seemed to me like there was a double misunderstanding, as in I thought he didn't understand you either. Seems silly now. I should have stayed out of it and I'm sure if there was a misunderstanding you two would have cleared it up. Now I see that it was me who misunderstood both of you and the two of you were understanding each other.

Often when people write in short messages misunderstandings happen. But it isn't a misunderstanding just between the ones having the conversation but it can lead to a misunderstanding between those listening (reading). I tend to err on perhaps being too wordy. But I can type almost as fast as I speak, so it isn't a problem.

Okay...another day...we move on...

[CW2274]

Agreed, a short is far fetched since the the run of cable is so small and protected, but a short does exactly the same as what the reed switch does, close the circuit and report a tip.
Just something to remember in case you get to the  point.

[galfert]

Has anyone found/read any published articles or papers by Davis touting the "improvements" of this new tipper?

Did you read the Patent that you posted earlier? I didn't read it. I thought when you posted the 2015 Patent that it probably held these answers and that the benefits were listed or mentioned there.

Perhaps we don't need to look for articles or any mentions of comparisons. Wouldn't simple specifications of each one provide the answers we are looking for? Perhaps if one says Accuracy +- 5% vs the other one saying +- 2%.....then you'd know right there.  So all we need are specs.
 

[galfert]

Here are the specifications for the VP2 (double tipping bucket)
https://www.davisinstruments.com/product_documents/weather/spec_sheets/6152_62_53_63_SS.pdf

Accuracy . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . For rain rates up to 4"/hr (100 mm/hr): ±4% of total or ± one tip of the
bucket (0.01"/0.2mm), whichever is greater.

Now all we need are the specifications for the new model rain tipper.

EDIT: Maybe this is new spoon tipper specifications. This document is dated Dec 2018.

[galfert]

This documentation with specifications at the end is clearly for the double tipping bucket design. Perhaps the previous document link that I posted is for the new design that is already incorporated in the newest VP2 stations being sold. Anyone have an older copy of their VP2 manual?

https://www.davisinstruments.com/product_documents/weather/manuals/07395-294_IM_6465.pdf

Accuracy . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .For rain rates up to 2"/hr (50 mm/hr): ±4% of total or +0.01”
(0.2mm) (0.01" = one tip of the bucket) whichever is greater. For
rain rates from 2"/hr (50 mm/hr) to 4"/hr (100 mm/hr): ±5% of total
or +0.01” (0.2mm), whichever is greater.

Either way I started to read the 2015 Patent. In just the first couple pages it says:

BACKGROUND OF THE INVENTION (excerpt)

Typically, in known rainfall gauge devices, some of which
are referred to as "tipping" gauges, a rainfall collector includes a bucket, spoon, or cup
apparatus that accumulates a volume of rainwater and then tips, signaling that a known
amount of rain has fallen. However, in such instrumentation, errors may be generated simply
due to the physical construction and operation of the rain gauge.

[0004] Accordingly, there remains a need to provide rain gauge instrumentation that
accurately measures rainfall without errors associated with the physical construction and
operation of tipping bucket rain gauges known in the field.

To me that sounds like there is a clear improvement with this new design.

[CW2274]

If they can get to the Rainwises's 111 at 2%, I'll really be impressed. Given the fact that the Davis is still a 6.5" bucket compared to the RW's 8", I'm dubious, but look forward to actual field testing.

[galfert]

Okay my head hurts after reading several pages of that Patent. I found very interesting improvements in this new design. There are many improvements actually and I don't yet understand them all. But these bits I'm about to share are an incredible realization....

We look at tipping rain gauge and we think...oh okay it fills and then it empties and then it just counts the number of tips. But how does it know when to tip? With the old method it tipped after the water reached a certain weight in the bucket that caused it to tip over and then it presents the other bucket for the next bit of rain. Apparently there are several claimed shortcomings with the old design. Namely that water doesn't fully empty and that there is loss of water in heavy rains....etc.

Okay so here it is....the big new idea...the new sensor works by weight but it isn't mechanical in determining the weight like the old model. The new tipping spoon is basically a digital scale. It electronically tips over rather than mechanically. This means that the tipping function is computer controlled and it can happen at different levels if needed....because when it tips the water may not fully leave the spoon. As such it doesn't matter if water remains because the spoon which is a digital scale re-zeros after every tip. So new water starts to collect and it doesn't matter if previous water didn't fully leave the spoon because it resets to zero. There are also other improvements in draining and collection so that loss of water is less affected during tipping....but the tipping also happens much faster because it happens at the blink of an eye as it uses magnets rather than springs. If you end up with a bit of debris that is stuck to the bottom of the spoon...no big deal...it won't take up volume for water measurement since its weight is reset.

Bottom line....this new tipping spoon is smart...and much more advanced. It probably still isn't as perfect as a Stratus precision gauge but this is a very interesting invention.

Good job Davis! .....now give us a new console and I2C bus sensors.

[CW2274]

It probably still isn't as perfect as a Stratus precision gauge but this is a very interesting invention.

I'm sure many will over this statement, but if the readings are close between my RW and my Stratus, which they always are, I use my RW as my 'official' reading.

[graculus]

Does anyone know for sure that the VP2 tipping spoon is actually the very sophisticated device described in the patent? Maybe it's just a re-packaged version of the Vue spoon...

[kobuki]

I also think we'll need to see some comparative field tests from actual users to see how good this new sensor is. From the patent, it looks like the spoon assembly has some active electronics, did I get that right? How is the partial tipping handled?

[rwilhour]

Ugh... Sorry guys... I had to increase my price on the new style tipping spoons.     I was incorrectly invoiced for my initial purchase and batch.  Upon reorder I saw the price significantly higher and I asked why it went up.  I was told my initial purchase price was an error.  My website price was $33.45, unfortunately I had to bump it up to $48.64 to hold my standard profit margin when taking the corrected price into account.  When Davis lists these on their site, they will have a retail price of $70 (seems high to me).  I promise I didn't just get greedier due to strong sale on a new item, if that was the case I would have started high in the first place.

[CW2274]

Ugh... Sorry guys... I had to increase my price on the new style tipping spoons.     I was incorrectly invoiced for my initial purchase and batch.  Upon reorder I saw the price significantly higher and I asked why it went up.  I was told my initial purchase price was an error.  My website price was $33.45, unfortunately I had to bump it up to $48.64 to hold my standard profit margin when taking the corrected price into account.  When Davis lists these on their site, they will have a retail price of $70 (seems high to me).  I promise I didn't just get greedier due to strong sale on a new item, if that was the case I would have started high in the first place.

You're fired.




 

[galfert]

Ryan,
uhhh!    I just got done telling a bunch of friends that it was $33 and change and they they should buy this. Now don't I look like the horse's you know what. But we understand. Not your fault. Davis is probably trying to cash in on this patent.

Do you have specs for this new rain gauge? We'd like to know the accuracy of this new gauge. Maybe it isn't worth it?

[rwilhour]

Ryan,
uhhh!    I just got done telling a bunch of friends that it was $33 and change and they they should buy this. Now don't I look like the horse's you know what. But we understand. Not your fault. Davis is probably trying to cash in on this patent.

Do you have specs for this new rain gauge? We'd like to know the accuracy of this new gauge. Maybe it isn't worth it?

Yeah this is why I decided to pipe up and say something, I didn't want to just quietly raise prices without explanation.  I don't post in the forums much because I feel like it would be an agenda to push products.  I would rather sales happen organically and I simply work in the background to hopefully provide the best customer service.  However, sometimes something needs to be said in as in this case.

Regarding documentation, I don't have any documentation at all for these new units.  In fact it is my understanding that they were released to me prematurely.  I was told upon my second order that they were not really supposed to be selling these just yet but they would let the second order go through.  Does this mean that once I run out there will be a dry spell before I can get more?  I simply do not know at this point.  Does this mean that there not done refining the product before releasing them to vendors and what I have in stock are not a finished product?  I don't know, but I sort of doubt that.  I think it is more about ramping up production and hitting a solid transition date.  This is all speculation...   Now back to my obscurity cave LOL.

[havtrail]

Ryan,
uhhh!    I just got done telling a bunch of friends that it was $33 and change and they they should buy this. Now don't I look like the horse's you know what. But we understand. Not your fault. Davis is probably trying to cash in on this patent.

Do you have specs for this new rain gauge? We'd like to know the accuracy of this new gauge. Maybe it isn't worth it?

Yeah this is why I decided to pipe up and say something, I didn't want to just quietly raise prices without explanation.  I don't post in the forums much because I feel like it would be an agenda to push products.  I would rather sales happen organically and I simply work in the background to hopefully provide the best customer service.  However, sometimes something needs to be said in as in this case.

Regarding documentation, I don't have any documentation at all for these new units.  In fact it is my understanding that they were released to me prematurely.  I was told upon my second order that they were not really supposed to be selling these just yet but they would let the second order go through.  Does this mean that once I run out there will be a dry spell before I can get more?  I simply do not know at this point.  Does this mean that there not done refining the product before releasing them to vendors and what I have in stock are not a finished product?  I don't know, but I sort of doubt that.  I think it is more about ramping up production and hitting a solid transition date.  This is all speculation...   Now back to my obscurity cave LOL.

Look on the positive side: I think you had a dealer exclusive! 

Rich K.

[kobuki]

Davis is testing via early adopters...

[mikeym2m]

Glad I got my order in under the wire! It's in the mail. Thank you.

Cheers

 

MikeyM