Author Topic: Snow Pack Sensor  (Read 3300 times)

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Offline DavidD

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Snow Pack Sensor
« on: August 20, 2015, 10:48:01 AM »
Is there a sensor that will measure snow pack?  I need to keep track of now much snow is sitting on the roof so that I know when to turn the heat strips on and off.  Any suggestions for monitoring this would be appreciated.

David

Offline miraculon

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Re: Snow Pack Sensor
« Reply #1 on: August 20, 2015, 10:54:51 AM »
I built up this,



but it was pretty involved to get working. I suspect that it is more complex and glorious than you need. It uses a MaxBotix ultrasonic rangefinder interfaced to my Linux box running a bunch of scripts.

Greg H.


Blitzortung Stations #706 and #1682
CoCoRaHS: MI-PI-1
CWOP: CW4114 and KE8DAF-13
WU: KMIROGER7
Amateur Radio Callsign: KE8DAF

Offline DavidD

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Re: Snow Pack Sensor
« Reply #2 on: August 20, 2015, 11:17:54 AM »
Very nice!!!  But yes, more than what I'm looking for.  I was thinking of something like a pad on the roof, but not sure what it would measure.  I've also just recently purchased a platform for my OS rain gauge (not yet installed).  It has sides on it that could accumulate snow, if there is a way to sense the level.

Offline Scalphunter

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Re: Snow Pack Sensor
« Reply #3 on: August 21, 2015, 02:11:05 PM »
The old eye ball method works best I think as on an roof you can get drifts and it can get deeper in one place and less in another due to the winds over the low pressure area of the roof.

John.

Offline DavidD

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Re: Snow Pack Sensor
« Reply #4 on: August 21, 2015, 02:39:38 PM »
My eyeballs don't seem to work at 130 miles away!  I guess I could set up a web cam, but I was hoping to automate this.  I don't need to know how much snow there is, just if there is a standing accumulation.

Offline Bushman

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Re: Snow Pack Sensor
« Reply #5 on: August 21, 2015, 04:31:37 PM »
Up here snow pillows are used a lot.  But if you have cash to spare... https://www.campbellsci.com/gmon3-article
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Offline DavidD

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Re: Snow Pack Sensor
« Reply #6 on: August 21, 2015, 07:44:36 PM »
Doing more research.  I did find some devices that actually do what I need to do, but they are quite pricey.  I have three heat strips, and thus would need three controllers.  I currently have thermostats on the strips, that are the last line of protection if the strips are left on too long, but they do nothing to turn on the strips to get them started.

I am looking for a solution that either reports data through my wx, or some Z-wave sensor or a combination of the two.  I can already turn the strips on and off with my Z-wave controller.  I just need to know when to do those tasks, or better yet, automate them.

So.....this may sound like a "dumb" question, but I'm in Phoenix (the location I need the snow sensor on is Flagstaff)......what happens from a rain gauge perspective when it snows?  Does the snow pile up on top of the sensor and then slowly melt, triggering the rain fall indication over a period of time?  That might be enough data for what I need, when combined with the temperature.  I can also likely rely somewhat on forecast data.  Is this bad for the rain gauge?  Does the rocker freeze up?  Would putting a cylinder of like-size onto the rain gauge help?

David

Offline DavidD

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Re: Snow Pack Sensor
« Reply #7 on: August 21, 2015, 08:11:53 PM »
That is to get the snow melt water equivalent.....but I don't really need that.  Meaning, I am not reporting the snowfall amount or rain equivalent anywhere other than what my Wx does (hope to have it uploading to WU in the next few weeks).  I need to know when I have snow standing on the roof, and thus need the heaters on.  My thought was that if there is snow on the gauge, and it's still trickling through giving a measurement when it's not frozen, I need to have the strips on.  I can turn them on based on a forecast of snow (and I've been told it is better to warm them up before the snow hits).  Turning them off is the main issue.  Sometimes it's a day, and sometimes it's a couple of weeks.  Just going by the temperatures isn't enough as the snow doesn't completely melt during the day.

Offline miraculon

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Re: Snow Pack Sensor
« Reply #8 on: August 21, 2015, 10:09:32 PM »
Would something like the NOAA snow maps be good enough?

NOAA Snow Map for Flagstaff Area



It can be zoomed closer than this if you want.

I use the dataset for my snow page at www.rogerscityweather.com/snow.php. (snow sensor is parked in an arbitrary position, so pay no attention to the six inches!)

Greg H.




Blitzortung Stations #706 and #1682
CoCoRaHS: MI-PI-1
CWOP: CW4114 and KE8DAF-13
WU: KMIROGER7
Amateur Radio Callsign: KE8DAF

Offline DavidD

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Re: Snow Pack Sensor
« Reply #9 on: August 21, 2015, 10:31:50 PM »
Yes, something like this could work, IF I can distill it down to a piece of data.  If I could get an email when there is a snow accumulation, or get the data into my (coming soon) Wx data on WU, I think I can connect it with my home automation system.  The only drawback is, snow depth varies greatly in this area.  You can drive a mile and have a foot difference.  That is why I am attempting to find a localized solution either through my weather station data, or through some sensor hooked up to my home automation (Z-Wave).

I was thinking something like.....if the forecast is a 50% or more chance of 3" or more of snow and the temperature is 32 or below, turn on the strips.  It could also check to see if it's snowing in the current data.  Then, if my rain gauge hasn't reported any wetness for 24 hours (the snow on top is melted) and it's above freezing, turn the strips off.  But, I'd also like to know if the forecast was wrong (it didn't snow).

I can err a bit on the turning off side, as there is a thermostat that will turn them off if it warms up too much, but that also wastes energy.

Yes, I could figure this all out manually, but if I forget (which is easy to do if it's nice and sunny in Phoenix) it can lead to disaster.

Offline Bushman

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Re: Snow Pack Sensor
« Reply #10 on: August 22, 2015, 12:06:19 AM »
Why exactly do you think you need to do this?  (Turn on roof heat)  II can get a metre of snow on the roof here in winter and no heat needed.
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Offline miraculon

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Re: Snow Pack Sensor
« Reply #11 on: August 22, 2015, 09:11:15 AM »
Actually I linked the wrong map. If you select "snow depth" from the dropdown box, it will show the depth.

Here is a more zoomed-in image, this time for snow depth. The squares are reporting stations.

Interactive Map zoomed in for Flagstaff



Just use the "link to this image" at the bottom left hand corner of the interactive page. If you could locate the closest station square to your own location, this could suffice. I found it reasonably accurate last winter in my area.

Greg H.




Blitzortung Stations #706 and #1682
CoCoRaHS: MI-PI-1
CWOP: CW4114 and KE8DAF-13
WU: KMIROGER7
Amateur Radio Callsign: KE8DAF

Offline DavidD

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Re: Snow Pack Sensor
« Reply #12 on: August 22, 2015, 10:38:09 AM »
Greg - is there a way to get the reading at a particular station.  There isn't one closeby, but it looks like there is one near the airport that would probably suffice.  The next nearest one might be up the mountain, which wouldn't work.

Bushman - I'm not sure how to answer that.  It could be due to the roof composition and slope, along with the tendency for the daytime temperatures to get above freezing, only to freeze again at night.  I've seen cases where gutters have been pulled down due to the weight of the snow and ice.  I've also seen chunks of ice/snow that have fallen from the roof and dented vehicles and totaled bbq grills.  It's more a safety thing than anything, I think. 

Offline Bushman

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Re: Snow Pack Sensor
« Reply #13 on: August 22, 2015, 12:59:33 PM »
Here's what I use:  http://www.roofersworld.com/penetrating-snostop.html  Otherwise we'd lose all the railings/BBQs etc. every year.
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Offline DavidD

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Re: Snow Pack Sensor
« Reply #14 on: August 22, 2015, 01:56:56 PM »
Yes, I have seen those rails around town, but the strips are more common.  My house came with the strips, so that's what I'm using for now.

Offline miraculon

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Re: Snow Pack Sensor
« Reply #15 on: August 22, 2015, 02:44:51 PM »
Greg - is there a way to get the reading at a particular station.  There isn't one closeby, but it looks like there is one near the airport that would probably suffice.  The next nearest one might be up the mountain, which wouldn't work.

Bushman - I'm not sure how to answer that.  It could be due to the roof composition and slope, along with the tendency for the daytime temperatures to get above freezing, only to freeze again at night.  I've seen cases where gutters have been pulled down due to the weight of the snow and ice.  I've also seen chunks of ice/snow that have fallen from the roof and dented vehicles and totaled bbq grills.  It's more a safety thing than anything, I think.

I have a NWS Coop  observer nearby and I like to check his data against my own CoCoRaHS data.
You could try http://mesonet.agron.iastate.edu/COOP/cat.phtml?station=FLSA3&year=2015&network=AZ_COOP and adjust the station dropdown box to your closest observer.

Mentioning CoCoRaHS, that is another resource. For example, you can see snow depths reported there on the Precipitation Reports page. For Arizona you could put your state and county in the dropdown boxes at http://www.cocorahs.org/ViewData/ListDailyPrecipReports.aspx

On the CoCoRaHS site, I put AZ in for the state and Coconino County and got a listing of several stations in the Flagstaff area. There is also a map that you can pick individual stations from at http://data.cocorahs.org/cocorahs/maps/?country=usa&state=az

I participate in CoCoRaHS myself, and the observers are pretty conscientious folk. I believe that you can trust the snow depth measurements if you find an observer close to your location of interest.

Greg H.








Blitzortung Stations #706 and #1682
CoCoRaHS: MI-PI-1
CWOP: CW4114 and KE8DAF-13
WU: KMIROGER7
Amateur Radio Callsign: KE8DAF

Offline DavidD

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Re: Snow Pack Sensor
« Reply #16 on: August 22, 2015, 03:52:28 PM »
Greg -

I, too, am a CoCoRaHS observer, but have never had to deal with snow.  I hadn't thought of using that data.  I'll have to see if there is a station nearby.

David
« Last Edit: January 20, 2016, 11:04:54 PM by DavidD »

 

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