Author Topic: Will the real pressure please stand up?  (Read 895 times)

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Offline gszlag

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Will the real pressure please stand up?
« on: April 19, 2024, 10:29:59 AM »
Will the real pressure please stand up?

What is barometric pressure?

Let's start the ball rolling with the US National Weather Service (NWS) definition: of station pressure:

“STATION PRESSURE: This is the pressure that is observed at a specific elevation and is the true barometric pressure of a location.”

The National Weather Service (NWS)defines station pressure as the true barometric pressure of a specific elevation. Station pressure is, of course, not a sea level pressure unless we are actually at sea level elevation.  But what do they mean about barometric pressure? What is it?

I think it would be reasonable to conclude that the NWS is referring to barometric pressure as the atmospheric pressure at a specific elevation.

If we want to split hairs, atmospheric pressure is the true pressure at any elevation, but if you measure it with a calibrated weather station barometer, you can call it a station pressure. The use of the term depends on the context. The term “barometric pressure” is used by the NWS in a generic sense — meaning barometric pressure is a pressure reading from a barometer at a specific location/elevation. In other words, — atmospheric pressure.

However, weather station manufacturers somewhat oddly, have the opposite view; barometric pressure = sea level pressure  (a corrected barometric pressure?) but that viewpoint causes even more confusion. Which sea level pressure are they referring to?  Altimeter setting/QNH? or maybe SLP/QFF?. And why call it “barometric pressure”?  Call it what it is — QFF/SLP or QNH/Altimeter (setting). One manufacturer had two conflicting definitions of  “barometric pressure”. One definition said barometric pressure is atmospheric pressure, and the other said it was sea level pressure.

We have a number of different contenders for the definition of barometric pressure:

1. barometric pressure = atmospheric pressure
2. barometric pressure = sea level pressure (SLP?)
3. barometric pressure = sea level pressure (Altimeter setting?)
4. barometric pressure = any pressure from a barometer
5. barometric pressure = raw pressure from a barometric sensor

Pick one — any one; they would all be correct depending on the reference you happen to be choosing from.

All of which leads us to yet another confusion of terms:

What is sea level pressure?

At first blush, the answer is obvious it seems — sea level pressure is a station pressure that has been corrected/reduced to sea level pressure factoring in elevation, temperature, humidity, plateau effect and possibly, other factors.

And that would be a 100% correct answer, except there is a problem. There is another 100% correct answer.

There is another sea level pressure that is often forgotten about. And that would be Altimeter (setting) or QNH which is a simpler version of sea level pressure (SLP). Altimeter (setting)/QNH is station pressure that is corrected/reduced to sea level pressure, factoring in only elevation. Unlike for SLP, temperature changes, humidity and other variables are not used to calculate Altimeter setting/QNH.

Some METAR reports are not especially helpful for discriminating between the two different sea level pressures, either. Sea level pressure in a decoded METAR report would indicate SLP as “SLP (sea level pressure).” But for Altimeter (setting), there is no equivalent descriptor and no indication that it is, equally, a sea level pressure just like SLP.

Unravelling the Tower of Babel.

Since the term, “barometric pressure” has conflicting meanings, in order to not confuse the reader, I am inclined to not use “barometric pressure” except to describe it as a reading from a barometric sensor.

Sea level pressure is also a confusing term in that it can refer to SLP or Altimeter (setting) or both depending on the context. Although SLP and Altimeter (setting) are both sea level pressures, they are not the same. They use different parameters and have different algorithms.

Something new or relatively new — at least for North American weather enthusiasts. I am seeing the term “air pressure” being used more frequently. “Air pressure” is more commonly used in Europe where it means atmospheric pressure. Usually.

To ease the confusion of terms, I have decided to use these definitions:

1. barometric pressure = pressure from a barometric sensor.
2. sea level pressure  = SLP or Altimeter setting (tell the reader which one you are referring to!)
3. air pressure = atmospheric pressure at a specific elevation.
4. barometer = instrument used to measure pressure.

Sure, there are regional biases or country specific preferences to describe “pressure”. Even weather equipment manufacturers have their own definitions.

How about the term “Barometer”?  The Fine Offset consoles that I have, show “Barometer reading” or just “Pressure” which alternates between Station pressure (ABS) and sea level pressure (REL) depending on which one, you want to display.

A popular data logging software, WeeWX also uses the term “Barometer” and if you are new to this software package, you have to dig deep into the documentation to find out what pressure the program is referring to. What WeeWX  calls “Barometer” is actually SLP.

Maybe Ambient/Ecowitt/re-brands(clones) consoles do a better job? Nope. They use a ABS/REL system.(Absolute value and Relative value). There is nothing wrong with using the term “Absolute value” as it is commonly used by barometric sensor manufacturers, but it is unclear what the REL (REL value) is supposed to be set to. Again, there are references to set REL to the sea level pressure at a close-by airport, leaving the owner wondering which sea level pressure to choose.

It seems some (most?) weather station manufacturers are avoiding using the standard meteorological terms like station pressure, Altimeter (setting) or SLP.

Pressure? Which one?

Confusion? Not possible. After all, meteorology is an exact science.
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Offline CW2274

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Re: Will the real pressure please stand up?
« Reply #1 on: April 19, 2024, 06:09:43 PM »
Some METAR reports are not especially helpful for discriminating between the two different sea level pressures, either. Sea level pressure in a decoded METAR report would indicate SLP as “SLP (sea level pressure).” But for Altimeter (setting), there is no equivalent descriptor and no indication that it is, equally, a sea level pressure just like SLP.

It seems some (most?) weather station manufacturers are avoiding using the standard meteorological terms like station pressure, Altimeter (setting) or SLP.
Unless I'm missing what you're getting at, the altimeter in an encoded METAR is notated by an "A" followed by the setting, minus the decimal in inHg, but I know you must know that. As far as the equivalent descriptor, my take is that the people who primarily use this information have been educated on the similarities and differences of the two, and most novices don't care, unless they're "us". 

Like I said in another post, things continue to be dumbed down for the buyer, hence the lack of description. At least the VP2 and Vue console tell you what you're choosing, and that's the way it should be, even if there is no choice. Which is it? Temp is temp, humidity is humidly, but the pressure is not necessarily the pressure, if you get my drift. Exactly why the type of reduction (or none) being used should be included, always. That irked me about the 6313, they tell you nothing.  :roll:

Offline gszlag

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Re: Will the real pressure please stand up?
« Reply #2 on: April 19, 2024, 07:29:05 PM »
Thanks for the feedback!

I guess the point I was making (or trying to make) is the term “sea level pressure” applies to both Altimeter setting and SLP. SLP is called sea level pressure (Aviation Weather Center) - that's what S-L-P stands for, but Altimeter is also “sea level pressure.” In other words, both are converted down to sea level.

If you are new to personal weather stations, it will take a while to just “know” the difference. It's all in the details...

I think the aviation industry got it right; QNH = QNH and QFF = QFF. No confusion there and no head scratching about sea level pressure, barometric pressure, etc, etc.

I can't comment much on the latest Davis console as I don't own any of their equipment. However, I did see that 6313 console thread and was a bit surprised. No SLP, just Altimeter is what I understood. An interesting design choice for a weather console.
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Offline CW2274

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Re: Will the real pressure please stand up?
« Reply #3 on: April 19, 2024, 07:53:51 PM »
I guess the point I was making (or trying to make) is the term “sea level pressure” applies to both Altimeter setting and SLP. SLP is called sea level pressure (Aviation Weather Center) - that's what S-L-P stands for, but Altimeter is also “sea level pressure.” In other words, both are converted down to sea level.

I think the aviation industry got it right; QNH = QNH and QFF = QFF. No confusion there and no head scratching about sea level pressure, barometric pressure, etc, etc.
I get what's trying to be conveyed. Problem is, they're not the same. I think a lack of further explanation here (by whomever) has some people thinking that they actually are. For instance, my altimeter right now 29.82, but my SLP is 29.62. Quite the difference.

Aviation had to get it right. It's used for vertical separation from other aircraft and terrain below 18,000' (FL180).
« Last Edit: April 19, 2024, 07:55:30 PM by CW2274 »

Offline Mattk

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Re: Will the real pressure please stand up?
« Reply #4 on: April 19, 2024, 09:38:44 PM »
.... Aviation had to get it right. It's used for vertical separation from other aircraft and terrain below 18,000' (FL180).

But QNH and associates are not set and forget, an aircraft requests/sets QNH to take off, then an area QNH, then the local QNH prior to landing. I just wisthpeople wouldn't keep on confusing people with such stuff that is really not relevant to the normal everyday weather station user. 

Offline CW2274

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Re: Will the real pressure please stand up?
« Reply #5 on: April 19, 2024, 09:47:23 PM »
.... Aviation had to get it right. It's used for vertical separation from other aircraft and terrain below 18,000' (FL180).

But QNH and associates are not set and forget, an aircraft requests/sets QNH to take off, then an area QNH, then the local QNH prior to landing.
Please explain to me this relevance to a PWS owner.

Offline Mattk

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Re: Will the real pressure please stand up?
« Reply #6 on: April 19, 2024, 10:14:32 PM »
.... Aviation had to get it right. It's used for vertical separation from other aircraft and terrain below 18,000' (FL180).

But QNH and associates are not set and forget, an aircraft requests/sets QNH to take off, then an area QNH, then the local QNH prior to landing.
Please explain to me this relevance to a PWS owner.

Exactly, so why did you actually raise or mention it then? PWS owners are not interested in Aviation matters why did you even mention it?

Offline CW2274

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Re: Will the real pressure please stand up?
« Reply #7 on: April 19, 2024, 10:43:34 PM »
Simple. The other guy said aviation got it right, and I explained why. The "altimeter" was a dirty word when I joined this forum umpteen years ago, and is now becoming the norm because it's what the public gets from the media, and it makes comparisons an apple to apple thing. Exactly the argument I made back then. Not difficult.

Offline Mattk

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Re: Will the real pressure please stand up?
« Reply #8 on: April 19, 2024, 10:50:30 PM »
Simple. The other guy said aviation got it right, and I explained why. The "altimeter" was a dirty word when I joined this forum umpteen years ago, and is now becoming the norm because it's what the public gets from the media, and it makes comparisons an apple to apple thing. Exactly the argument I made back then. Not difficult.

My response was the fact you agreed
Quote
...Aviation had to get it right. It's used for vertical separation from other aircraft and terrain below 18,000' (FL180).
don't condone adding to the confusion.

The public gets crap from everywhere but the worst offenders are manufacturers condoning the lowest common denominator, much like the 6313 is clearly not an international product with only an Altimeter provision, the rest of the world does not think like the US   

Offline CW2274

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Re: Will the real pressure please stand up?
« Reply #9 on: April 19, 2024, 10:56:19 PM »
Simple. The other guy said aviation got it right, and I explained why. The "altimeter" was a dirty word when I joined this forum umpteen years ago, and is now becoming the norm because it's what the public gets from the media, and it makes comparisons an apple to apple thing. Exactly the argument I made back then. Not difficult.


The public gets crap from everywhere but the worst offenders are manufacturers condoning the lowest common denominator, much like the 6313 is clearly not an international product with only an Altimeter provision, the rest of the world does not think like the US
Yeah, oh well, don't bitch to me, bitch to Davis.

Offline gszlag

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Re: Will the real pressure please stand up?
« Reply #10 on: April 20, 2024, 08:56:29 AM »
This discussion reminds me of the interesting  arguments discussions with GeorgeR  back in the earlier days of this forum. George was the resident pressure expert at the time and a SLP champion.

There were many "my pressure is better than your pressure" (Altimeter vs SLP) arguments.

In this forum, for our equipment, our barometers are different. You can't enter an elevation directly so we have to treat our barometers like altimeters( the instrument) by setting pressure and reading altitude. Our firmware is designed to use a fixed elevation offset. I think Davis refers to this as a "constant offset'. We have to emulate Altimeter setting similar to old VP2 console that was put into fixed offset mode by setting elevation = 0.

Long story short, is that Altimeter is a very important tool for calibration purposes as we need a benchmark without all the additional variable variables in SLP.

But just because I am the world's greatest fan for the the use of Altimeter for calibration purposes, does not mean that I am required to use it for meteorological purposes. Here, the torch is passed on.

I can't envision any discussion about weather by not discussing SLP. There are no Altimeter isobar charts that I can find.

SLP is not an international standard - all American AWOS/ASOS calculate SLP but not all METARs publish it. For weather purposes, SLP is not a "nice to have" it is a "must have". For aviation and safety-critical purposes, Altimeter is a "must have". Other than flight levels, QFF(SLP) is  important in the discussion between indicated altitude versus true altitude where temperature's relationship with QNH is paramount (a required test question if you are studying to be a pilot). The discussion of air density is mission critical for meteorology and aviation.

The ideal weather console should have all the pressures easily viewable: station pressure/Altimeter setting/SLP. Whether you prefer one over the other is up to you. For me - I want all of them.

In the meantime, if you have to, do what I do - use WeeWX to generate SLP. The FIne Offset consoles can't do SLP either. Someone on this forum recently said: "WeeWX does everything."

It does.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2024, 11:22:45 AM by gszlag »
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Offline Ahill

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Re: Will the real pressure please stand up?
« Reply #11 on: April 26, 2024, 11:36:19 PM »
So gszlag, you helped me set up my ws5000 so it could send the correct altimeter pressure to cwop. I now also have a vp2 that i need to  setup and eventually send its data. Do i have to do all the same steps and calculations with the vp2 as with the ws5000?

Offline gszlag

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Re: Will the real pressure please stand up?
« Reply #12 on: April 27, 2024, 06:42:19 AM »
The Davis VP2 has very different firmware. All you have to do is enter in your elevation and you are done.I believe your console will automatically calculate Altimeter.

Your Davis system has the better, more accurate algorithm, so it should be preferred over the Ambient station.

Don't upload both weather stations to CWOP - just use the Davis.
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Offline Ahill

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Re: Will the real pressure please stand up?
« Reply #13 on: April 27, 2024, 07:50:10 AM »
I was originally just going to leave everything alone with the ambient and cwop and add the davis but i can see your point. So do i still use the same station and madis id. How do you switch over to the davis? I am first setting up the anny alongside the ambient and at a later time setting up the rest of the davis station due to some construction going on where the sensor suite is being located. The anny is on a separate wireless transmitter to the console so that will be transmitting prior to me setting up the sensor suite

Offline gszlag

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Re: Will the real pressure please stand up?
« Reply #14 on: April 27, 2024, 09:44:47 AM »
Sorry. I am not familiar enough with Davis equipment to address your Davis CWOP  set up questions. That question would be better addressed by a Davis owner who is currently uploading to CWOP.

I can't see that your CWOP credentials would change just because you are changing weather stations.

When your Davis weather station is set up and you are ready to switch over, you will have to disconnect your CWOP uploading from your Ambient equipment - undoing what you did (depending on your upload method). If you used ambientcwop.com, I would suggest contacting them to see if you can suspend this service rather than deleting your account altogether.
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Offline Gyvate

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Re: Will the real pressure please stand up?
« Reply #15 on: April 27, 2024, 10:53:07 AM »
Google can be your friend ...
the search for "how to post data from a davis vp2 to cwop" provides the below link as first hit
#6 should be the answer to your question
https://www.davisinstruments.com/blogs/newsletter/6-ways-you-can-contribute-to-the-meteorological-community
and for the WS-5000 console (or via ambientweather.net or ambientcwop.com), just suspend your currently set up posting
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Offline Ahill

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Re: Will the real pressure please stand up?
« Reply #16 on: April 27, 2024, 11:10:13 AM »
Thanks, i am starting with setting up the anny alongside the ws5000. In a couple months or so when i set up the remainder of the davis(sensor suite) and everything is fully functioning i will look into snitching everything over. I will have both running practically side by side and interesting to see the results. I wouldn’t have minded just having both report to cwop instead of having to suspend one and start another. At least if one ever went down for whatever reason the other is still reporting. I don’t see how it would be any different than if my next door neighbor who had a different station was reporting.

Offline Ahill

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Re: Will the real pressure please stand up?
« Reply #17 on: April 30, 2024, 12:33:49 PM »
The Davis VP2 has very different firmware. All you have to do is enter in your elevation and you are done.I believe your console will automatically calculate Altimeter.

Your Davis system has the better, more accurate algorithm, so it should be preferred over the Ambient station.

Don't upload both weather stations to CWOP - just use the Davis.

I have been noticing that with the quality check on cwop the ambient station has been averaging about  .45mb( half a mb ) high to madis. When it gets to 1mb or more difference it needs to be recalibrated.
The davis which supposedly has a better more accurate algorithm is even higher than the ambient average by about another .4 mb after just entering the elevation.
If i don’t calibrate the davis it would then be about 1mb higher than the madis and out of recommended range.
So at this point does the davis need to be calibrated using the same method as did for the ambient or should I just adjust the difference on the davis using the ambient?

« Last Edit: April 30, 2024, 12:38:44 PM by Ahill »

Offline gszlag

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Re: Will the real pressure please stand up?
« Reply #18 on: April 30, 2024, 03:50:54 PM »
I'll assume you did not get the NIST traceable option with your new Davis station. If not, the new barometer should be checked/verified/calibrated for accuracy before being put into operation.

However, do not be tempted to use MADIS as a calibrated reference. Don't forget that MADIS is an average of good and bad surrounding stations.

I would not use your Ambient station as a reference calibrated reference for your new weather station. The Davis sensor hardware and Altimeter algorithm should be a good deal better than the much lower cost Ambient. The reference barometer should always have better specs than the unit you want to calibrate.

For your Davis barometer, it is best to calibrate (like your Ambient unit), to the Altimeter reading at a close-by airport(s). Once you've calibrated, it would be interesting to directly compare readings between the Ambient weather station and the Davis.

Also for interest’s sake, before you change any settings, record the ABS value on the Ambient and check the ABS/station pressure on the Davis and note any differences.
Ambient Weather WS-2000
Ecowitt WS3900 console
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Ecowitt WS68: Anemometer, UV/solar
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Stratus Rain Gauge (manual)
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Offline Ahill

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Re: Will the real pressure please stand up?
« Reply #19 on: April 30, 2024, 04:44:13 PM »
I'll assume you did not get the NIST traceable option with your new Davis station. If not, the new barometer should be checked/verified/calibrated for accuracy before being put into operation.

However, do not be tempted to use MADIS as a calibrated reference. Don't forget that MADIS is an average of good and bad surrounding stations.

I would not use your Ambient station as a reference calibrated reference for your new weather station. The Davis sensor hardware and Altimeter algorithm should be a good deal better than the much lower cost Ambient. The reference barometer should always have better specs than the unit you want to calibrate.

For your Davis barometer, it is best to calibrate (like your Ambient unit), to the Altimeter reading at a close-by airport(s). Once you've calibrated, it would be interesting to directly compare readings between the Ambient weather station and the Davis.

Also for interest’s sake, before you change any settings, record the ABS value on the Ambient and check the ABS/station pressure on the Davis and note any differences.

If its the same calibration method then i presume most of the work is already done. I assume i just use the same REL offset value previously used for the ambient which is (-1.78 hpa) and just change the ABS value on the Davis by the subtracting the offset value (-1.78 hpa).
Does it work the same way on the Davis where it just changes the REL in lock-step and that is also the elevation pressure that is displayed or is it different setup on the Davis?

I did note the ABS between the Davis and Ambient at same exact update time
Davis ABS     1014.1 hpa
Ambient ABS 1013.6 hpa

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Davis  ABS     1014.1
Ambient ABS  1013.8

Ambient seems to fluctuate more so how do you deal with this
« Last Edit: April 30, 2024, 05:08:20 PM by Ahill »

Offline gszlag

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Re: Will the real pressure please stand up?
« Reply #20 on: April 30, 2024, 06:01:29 PM »
No. Two different algorithms entirely so no, don't use the Ambient's settings.

The Ambient device uses a fixed offset to add to ABS in order to estimate Altimeter. As you recall, you had to calculate this offset (REL offset) manually based on your elevation.

The Davis uses the “real” Altimeter algorithm, not an estimate, so all you have to do is enter in your elevation and adjust the Barometer reading to match the airport Altimeter reading.
Ambient Weather WS-2000
Ecowitt WS3900 console
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Ecowitt WS68: Anemometer, UV/solar
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Offline CW2274

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Re: Will the real pressure please stand up?
« Reply #21 on: April 30, 2024, 06:07:59 PM »
Don't make this more difficult than need be. If you want to use the altimeter with a VP2 console, set the console elevation to "zero" and set it "around" 29.92 inHg in benign-ish conditions from your reference. It's not perfect, but the best solution. If the Vue console, enter your console elevation and select ALT SETTING. That's it. No calibration is necessary. The Vue console does all that for you. 

Offline CW2274

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Re: Will the real pressure please stand up?
« Reply #22 on: April 30, 2024, 06:10:59 PM »

The Davis uses the “real” Altimeter algorithm, not an estimate, so all you have to do is enter in your elevation and adjust the Barometer reading to match the airport Altimeter reading.
Not needed with the Vue. Not only, you're using the airport altimeter, not your own.

Offline gszlag

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Re: Will the real pressure please stand up?
« Reply #23 on: April 30, 2024, 06:22:57 PM »
Good question. I guess we should ask. This was a recent Davis purchase? If so, what console are you using; the new Davis 6313? or one of the previous consoles that CW2274 mentioned?

As for your question about the Ambient's REL (Altimeter) reading drifting, see:
http://meshka.eu/Ecowitt/dokuwiki/doku.php?id=barometer#troubleshooting
and look up the last problem in the Troubleshooting section.
Ambient Weather WS-2000
Ecowitt WS3900 console
Ecowitt GW1000/GW1100
Ecowitt WS68: Anemometer, UV/solar
Ecowitt WH40: Rain gauge
Ecowitt WH57 Lightning sensor
Ecowitt WH32E: Outside T & H sensor
Stratus Rain Gauge (manual)
Raspberry Pi 3B+ (WeeWX/CumulusMX)
Raspberry Pi Zero 2W (WeeWX/MQTT/Belchertown)
---
Barometer wiki: http://meshka.eu/Ecowitt/dokuwiki/doku.php?id=barometer#barometer
---
http://weather.glenns.ca (pwsdashboard - live)
http://weewx.glenns.ca
http://glenns.ca/cumulusmx2/index.htm
---
Uploading to: AWN, ecowitt.net, Weather Underground, PWSweather.com, AWEKAS, Windy.com, WOW

Offline Ahill

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Re: Will the real pressure please stand up?
« Reply #24 on: April 30, 2024, 08:00:42 PM »
Good question. I guess we should ask. This was a recent Davis purchase? If so, what console are you using; the new Davis 6313? or one of the previous consoles that CW2274 mentioned?

As for your question about the Ambient's REL (Altimeter) reading drifting, see:
http://meshka.eu/Ecowitt/dokuwiki/doku.php?id=barometer#troubleshooting
and look up the last problem in the Troubleshooting section.

Its a new vp2 with the 6313 console.
Seems to simple or am i missing something.
Elevation is set.
So just get the airport elevation pressure and just change mine to match?

 

anything