Author Topic: CWOP position on made made CO2 and global warming?  (Read 4907 times)

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Offline wuhu_software

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CWOP position on made made CO2 and global warming?
« on: December 13, 2009, 12:28:24 PM »

Although I have been involved with uploading CWOP data for several years, I guess it never occurred to meet to ask what the administrators of CWOP thought about the global warming / CO2 debate that is going on right now.

I am particularly interested to know what their opinion is about the data quality is of the official sensors, and whether or not there is a good correlation between the data that they have collected and those being used by NOAA, NASA, and the IPCC. I have read several articles about the ground based observations and the homogenization of raw sensor data but have been able to find few details other than a couple vague references as to how those calculations are performed and expert opinion as to whether or not those algorithms are valid.

If CWOP is collecting data, and performing a long term analysis of temperature changes, using  homogenization techniques, I have not seen it. Perhaps it does not exists, I am not sure.

If you have any information about this, and the official CWOP opinion (if any) on this topic, I would appreciate it.

Thanks.

Offline Downlinerz2

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Re: CWOP position on made made CO2 and global warming?
« Reply #1 on: December 13, 2009, 01:55:46 PM »
    Great question =D>!!!  That would be very interesting to see what CWOP data would show.

Offline wuhu_software

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Re: CWOP position on made made CO2 and global warming?
« Reply #2 on: December 13, 2009, 02:26:32 PM »
    Great question =D>!!!  That would be very interesting to see what CWOP data would show.

I was thinking the same, especially concerning the "hockey stick" rise in temperatures of late.


Offline W3DRM

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Re: CWOP position on made made CO2 and global warming?
« Reply #3 on: December 14, 2009, 11:29:51 AM »
Yes, a great question. Why not ask it of the CWOP administrators? I see the following link to Russ Chadwick, KB0TVJ who maintains the CWOP website. It says "Send any comments to russ at wxqa dot com" so you might try that address to start with.

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Offline wuhu_software

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Re: CWOP position on made made CO2 and global warming?
« Reply #4 on: December 14, 2009, 02:54:55 PM »

I did yesterday and received a response. While Russ is convinced that temperatures are rising due to man-made CO2, he has not peformed an analysis of the data, and there is no official stance. CWOP data is apparently available to anyone through MADIS although I have not looked in to how easy it is to retrieve large amounts of historical data from MADIS.

I also asked if he is aware of any publicly available information about data homogenization alogrithms. I will let you know if he does although I suspect that these are not available to the prying eye of the public.

Reading over a report from NOAA, a "final report" about Global warming, I am very bothered at the ease that they dismiss effects of urbanization on the stations and the "homogenization" algorithms mentioned but not documented. In my mind, the obvious question would be how you would accept data from stations in urban areas. Someone in the WXforum posted some links a while back about official stations being in the middle of parking lots, on top hot roofs, and even above air conditioners. To summarily ignore these effects, I think is really disingenuous.

It would be an interesting project to look strickly at the CWOP data to the exclusion of all other sites to see if anything can be learned.

Personally, I would just like to see the un-processed RAW data it's original state, accross the entire U.S. over a period of say 10 years. It seems that looking at the raw data has become passe in this world of black box models that we are supposed to accept on faith alone.

Offline SoMDWx

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Re: CWOP position on made made CO2 and global warming?
« Reply #5 on: December 14, 2009, 03:03:10 PM »
Living here in MD I see alot of state-operated weather sensors and many of them appear to have really,really bad data coming from them. Do these get parsed out? How does anyone know if the dat is good or not? And all of this is running into the record books??????????????  :shock:

Again, this whole topic is going to be one-tough cookie to nail down.

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Offline Weather Display

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Re: CWOP position on made made CO2 and global warming?
« Reply #6 on: December 14, 2009, 03:34:06 PM »
I think that the better option is to use satellite based athmosphere temperature readings

thats where NASA comes in I think
and they report a warming trend....but the data only goes back to the early 80's I think?

or am I wrong?
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Offline SoMDWx

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Re: CWOP position on made made CO2 and global warming?
« Reply #7 on: December 14, 2009, 04:58:00 PM »
Again , WHO (not the World Health Organization) is validating the data?  :roll:
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Offline W Thomas

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Re: CWOP position on made made CO2 and global warming?
« Reply #8 on: December 14, 2009, 10:15:28 PM »
Living here in MD I see alot of state-operated weather sensors and many of them appear to have really,really bad data coming from them.



I see the same in Va. While I have noticed several new Official State Owned And Operated stations I haven't seen any actual data from them anywhere yet.( Haven't looked too hard I guess )
But they are several that are supposedly used by the state that have terrible data compared to the other MADIS stations. I wonder sometimes if that is not a small cause of some of our poor data quality flags within CWOP when the data closely compares to neighboring stations :?


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Offline wuhu_software

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Re: CWOP position on made made CO2 and global warming?
« Reply #9 on: December 19, 2009, 11:50:32 AM »

Russ emailed me again. He contacted the folks at MADIS, they are not familiar with the term "homogenization" of weather data as is performed by the IPCC to massage the data for their models.

They are also not aware of any such algorithms available to the public.

Just thought I would pass that on.

Offline wuhu_software

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Re: CWOP position on made made CO2 and global warming?
« Reply #10 on: December 19, 2009, 12:03:15 PM »

Oh, by the way, here is an interesting document to read.

If you read between the lines, all of the data referenced in the report has been homogenized, including satellite data which is apparently done by hand, at least that is what is inferred in the document. Check it out.

This is the same document that has the FOOTNOTE: "Some have expressed concern that land temperature data might be biased due to urbanization effects. Recent studies specifically designed to identify systematic problems using a range of approaches have found no detectable urban influence in large-area averages in the data sets that have been adjusted to remove non-climatic influences (i.e., “homogenized”)."

'Recent Studies'? Really? Produced by whom? The IPCC perhaps?

"U.S. Climate Change Science Program Synthesis and Assessment Product 1.1",

"Temperature Trends in the Lower Atmosphere Steps for Understanding and Reconciling Differences, Synthesis and Assessment Product 1.1
Report by the U.S. Climate Change Science Program and the Subcommittee on Global Change Research"

www.climatescience.gov/Library/sap/sap1-1/finalreport/sap1-1-final-all.pdf

What is interesting are the many references to homogenized data sets, from what I can see, all of it, yet there is no real information about the rules of the game. There are 180 pages, and they could not find the room to explain how ground based temperature data is being massaged?

There are also 36 references to the IPCC.

Let me guess, NOAA is using data produced by the IPCC that has been heavily tainted by data homogenization, and they themselves probably do not even have the algorithms to share with the public. Some guy sitting at the IPCC comes up with a rule set that is the entire crux of the man-made global warming argument, and low and behold, writes a software program that demonstrates it. This sure sounds like transparent science to me.

I think I need to take another look at Scientology, because this Voodoo science has lost all appeal to me.

Offline Russell797

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Re: CWOP position on made made CO2 and global warming?
« Reply #11 on: December 21, 2009, 09:48:30 PM »
For information regarding NASA GISS surface temperature analysis and methodologies please refer to the following.

http://data.giss.nasa.gov/gistemp/

The cynicism regarding this science is unbelievable. How did it ever become so politically charged? That was a rhetorical question!

The basis for global warming is founded in physics. The temperature record and computer modeling of climate change are important aspects  of the science, but are not fundamental to an understanding of why climate change is currently occurring the way it is. Also, the IPCC does not do research. It gathers and assesses the peer-reviewed scientific literature and then presents it in one convenient, comprehensive format.
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Offline WeatherGoose

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Re: CWOP position on made made CO2 and global warming?
« Reply #12 on: December 21, 2009, 11:31:30 PM »
For information regarding NASA GISS surface temperature analysis and methodologies please refer to the following.

http://data.giss.nasa.gov/gistemp/

The cynicism regarding this science is unbelievable. How did it ever become so politically charged? That was a rhetorical question!

The basis for global warming is founded in physics. The temperature record and computer modeling of climate change are important aspects  of the science, but are not fundamental to an understanding of why climate change is currently occurring the way it is. Also, the IPCC does not do research. It gathers and assesses the peer-reviewed scientific literature and then presents it in one convenient, comprehensive format.

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Re: CWOP position on made made CO2 and global warming?
« Reply #13 on: December 21, 2009, 11:59:49 PM »
Quote
Also, the IPCC does not do research. It gathers and assesses the peer-reviewed scientific literature and then presents it in one convenient, comprehensive format.

That's the whole problem. The peer-reviewed data has been compromised and is no longer valid. The fact that yrs of doing it wrong/falsified sets the research back. Also, peer-reviews didn't include scientists that had different data. Science should be non-bias based.

History has proven how this type of peer-reviewed data/theories/beliefs affects true non-bias based science. Galileo. Copernicus. Einstein maybe some.
If you don't think the way we want you to, we'll seperate you and discredit you.

Offline wuhu_software

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Re: CWOP position on made made CO2 and global warming?
« Reply #14 on: December 22, 2009, 06:10:54 AM »
For information regarding NASA GISS surface temperature analysis and methodologies please refer to the following.
http://data.giss.nasa.gov/gistemp/
The cynicism regarding this science is unbelievable. How did it ever become so politically charged? That was a rhetorical question!

That is interesting that you reference the work of James Hansen, one of the most outspoken climate activists and alarmists.

"For Hansen, the dark agent of the looming environmental apocalypse is carbon dioxide contained in coal smoke. Coal, he has written, “is the single greatest threat to civilization and all life on our planet.” Hansen has referred to railroad cars transporting coal as “death trains.”"

Is that the guy you trust with presentation of data? "Death Trains"?

Based on what? His claim that CO2 is the cause singular cause for global warming? Based on research from the IPCC?

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/29/magazine/29Dyson-t.html?pagewanted=3&_r=1&sq=Freeman%20Dyson

"We conclude that global warming of more than ≈1°C, relative to 2000, will constitute "dangerous" climate change as judged from likely effects on sea level and extermination of species."

http://pubs.giss.nasa.gov/abstracts/1999/Hansen_etal.html

Offline wuhu_software

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Re: CWOP position on made made CO2 and global warming?
« Reply #15 on: December 22, 2009, 06:30:02 AM »

Oh, look, Dr. Hansen is even attending rallies to "Stop Coal" that Americans get 50% of their power from..

"NASA's Chief Climate Scientist Stirs Controversy With Call for Civil Disobedience: In a video on capitolclimateaction.org, Dr. James Hansen is seen urging Americans to "take a stand on global warming" during the March 2 protest at the Capitol Power Plant in Southeast Washington, D.C.

"We need to send a message to Congress and the president that we want them to take the actions that are needed to preserve climate for young people and future generations and all life on the planet," says Hansen, who has likened coal-fired power plants to "factories of death" and claims he was muzzled by the Bush administration when he warned of drastic climate changes."

It is an interesting video, people chanting "Yes we can", "Stop Coal", very telling indeed.

Offline SlowModem

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Re: CWOP position on made made CO2 and global warming?
« Reply #16 on: December 22, 2009, 06:35:31 AM »

Oh, look, Dr. Hansen is even attending rallies to "Stop Coal" that Americans get 50% of their power from..

and I get 100% of my employment from.

Greg Whitehead
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Offline Mark / Ohio

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Re: CWOP position on made made CO2 and global warming?
« Reply #17 on: December 23, 2009, 12:23:57 AM »

Oh, look, Dr. Hansen is even attending rallies to "Stop Coal" that Americans get 50% of their power from..

and I get 100% of my employment from.



Number of houses especially out in the hills South of town here still getting 100% of their heat from it yet too.  Also seeing more outdoor furnaces showing up out back of old farm houses to new homes.  If ones on a tight budget or unemployed it's about the only way to stay warm.  Given the choice between polluting and staying warm, people for some reason tend to chose warmth.   :-?

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Offline upweather

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Re: CWOP position on made made CO2 and global warming?
« Reply #18 on: December 24, 2009, 02:32:00 AM »
very true I agree  100%   =D>

 
Quote
Also, the IPCC does not do research. It gathers and assesses the peer-reviewed scientific literature and then presents it in one convenient, comprehensive format.

That's the whole problem. The peer-reviewed data has been compromised and is no longer valid. The fact that yrs of doing it wrong/falsified sets the research back. Also, peer-reviews didn't include scientists that had different data. Science should be non-bias based.

History has proven how this type of peer-reviewed data/theories/beliefs affects true non-bias based science. Galileo. Copernicus. Einstein maybe some.
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