Measuring your electrical use

[mackbig]

I am thinking they are a pretty small operation, not quite one person but probably close.  The sales department (one very nice girl) was off this morning. She said it shipped already but needed to get the tracking number from the shipping department... oh well, its on it way, and should have it tomorrow to begin playing.

Andrew

[Cienega32]

I have a bunch more current transformers (CT) on order so I can segment the loads better. Several can be paralleled on one input, so I can put CTs on the breakers for the fridge, dishwasher, microwave, stove, and garbage disposal on one "Kitchen" input.

Have you installed the parallel CTs on the one channel yet? Do you still display a recognizable graphing of each kitchen item?

As far as the main CTs - I run a 100A panel but hope to up it to a 200 before too long - it would be sensible to just order the device in the 200A flavor, would it not?

[mackbig]

I am in the same situation as you.  So I was toying with getting the 100amp package, and having to get the 200 amps CTs later for another $75... however when I emailed them they said that the 200amp cts would work fine with the 100amp service till I upgrade my panel.

I did however find this after I made my purchase (talking about 1220, but looks like the CT's are the same), now their comparison is getting a 200 amp when you only have a 60 amp service... oh well.  I will be able to let you know how it faired in real life example.
http://www.brultech.com/HomeEnergy/homefaq.html#G23

From the FAQ above.
"23. Why do you have the option of 60A, 100A or 200A CTs for the ECM-1220.H? Why don't you only sell the 200A version which would accommodate all options?
Using the 200A version on a 60A panel will work however, since the CT/monitor will only be working at a fraction of its dynamic range, accuracy will suffer. Maybe think of it as having an analog speedometer (gauge with indicator needle) which goes from 0 - 500 MPH. It would be difficult to distinguish between speeds of 32 or 34 MPH.

Another reason is that using a 200A CT with small values of current will produce a very small signal of a few millivolt for the ECM-1220 to read. This could become a problem if the CT cables are extended and noise interference get coupled with the signal. Think of this as speaking softly in a noisy environment.

Finally, the size becomes a factor. A 200A CT is larger and may not fit properly in a 60A panel."


Andrew

As far as the main CTs - I run a 100A panel but hope to up it to a 200 before too long - it would be sensible to just order the device in the 200A flavor, would it not?

[SLOweather]

I have a bunch more current transformers (CT) on order so I can segment the loads better. Several can be paralleled on one input, so I can put CTs on the breakers for the fridge, dishwasher, microwave, stove, and garbage disposal on one "Kitchen" input.

Have you installed the parallel CTs on the one channel yet? Do you still display a recognizable graphing of each kitchen item?

Not yet. We were busy all last weekend. This is a nice long weekend coming up, so I hope to be able to work on it then. In the interim, I've been counting CTs and looking at my circuit list, to see how best to deploy them.

BTW, there's a tool you can download from the Brultech site that will help you calculate the value of the additional load resistor needed on Ch1 or Ch2  input with multiple CTs.

FWIW, the CTs are current transformers, so their current output is proportional to the current in the wire they each surround. But analog to digital converters are voltage driven. Hence, the need for a load resistor to create a voltage from the CTs output current. (Ohm's law, y'know )

The main inputs and Aux 1-4 inputs apparently have an internal resistor, while Aux 5 can be used for other inputs, including voltage. So, when using Aux5 with a CT, it requires an external resistor.

And Ch1 and Ch2 need additional resistors to correctly scale multiple CTs, or smaller CTs.

One last lil gotcha. Make sure that you pay attention to the orientation of the CT on the wire, the wiring order of the CT leads, and the side of the 240 incoming power its attached to, especially  when paralleling CTs.

Otherwise, the sensed currents will partially or completely cancel each other out, and the device will read low or zero power. I had that trouble initially on the mains CTs.

[mackbig]

Just reading the install manual, in anticipation of it arriving this aft.... The "main" part looks fine. One arrow up one arrow down.  Its the whole "line 1 line 2" discussion on page 9-10 that has me scratching my head.

Andrew

One last lil gotcha. Make sure that you pay attention to the orientation of the CT on the wire, the wiring order of the CT leads, and the side of the 240 incoming power its attached to, especially  when paralleling CTs.

[SLOweather]

Just reading the install manual, in anticipation of it arriving this aft.... The "main" part looks fine. One arrow up one arrow down.  Its the whole "line 1 line 2" discussion on page 9-10 that has me scratching my head.

Incoming power from your electricity provider is 2 120v AC lines and a neutral. Each line to neutral measures 120VAC.

However, the AC waveform on the lines are exactly out of phase with each other. So, measuring line to line gives 240 VAC.

The breaker box is made so that adjacent breakers in a vertical row are clipped on to opposite incoming line buses.

That way, a 220 circuit, like for a stove, dryer, or spa, can use a single ganged double pole circuit breaker, with each side on a different bus.

The CTs need to be installed so that they sense the current all in the same phase. Hence the requirement to alternate how they are installed on the breaker wires.

Brultech has a rather more simplistic explanation here .

[mackbig]

Thanks Chris,
So I guess the big deal when it comes to the micro CT's (and the little direction arrow) is in the following scenarios

a) doing a 240 volt breaker (a/c, pool pump, stove...) the arrows for each wire need to be opposite

b) putting multiple ct's into one aux (channel), the arrows for like line's need to be same direction, and vice versa.

I guess the trick for B is knowing which line feeds which breaker.  Hopefully mine is every other like the example shows..

I think my panel might have an extra row?  I recall in the winter we moved some breakers around during a reno, I end up moving the double a/c breaker up one spot. In the spring the a/c would not turn on.  My hvac friend came over, noticed, and then moved it back down one spot.  It worked....     Only ever having experience with a Siemens board, I thought doubles could be placed anywhere.  (is this at all related?)   I am pretty handy with installing anything electrical (plugs, switches, lights....), but must admit inside the panel, aside from plunking in a new breaker for a new circuit, I am not too knowledgeable on the mechanics of how it all works ......

Andrew

[SLOweather]

Thanks Chris,

You're welcome...

I guess the trick for B is knowing which line feeds which breaker.  Hopefully mine is every other like the example shows..

Like the manual shows, put your multimeter on AC Volts, and measure breaker to breaker voltage on the screw that holds the wire down.

Breakers on the same line will read 0 or close to it, breakers on opposite lines will show the full line voltage (220-240 VAC).

[mackbig]

Assuming I have a multimeter, and am not afraid to use it... 

"Warning: DO NOT PERFORM THE DEPICTED TEST UNLESS YOU ARE
QUALIFIED TO DO SO and YOU ARE USING PROPER
PROCEDURES, INSTRUMENTS AND SAFETY EQUIPMENT!"

Andrew

Like the manual shows, put your multimeter on AC Volts, and measure breaker to breaker voltage on the screw that holds the wire down.
Breakers on the same line will read 0 or close to it, breakers on opposite lines will show the full line voltage (220-240 VAC).

[mackbig]

It arrived. Yay.

First roadblock.  Serial cable.  Says to attach
pin 5 to GND
pin 3 to RX
pin 2 to TX

only problem is that serial calbe is shielded....so I have no idea what wire is which.  I have a red wire, an orange, and a green with a bare wire wrapped.  I guess if I assume the green/bare combo is the ground, I have a 50 50 chance on the other.

Andrew

edit: the paper manual that comes with the device and pdf manual are "dated".  if you look hard enough on site, there is an updated RS-232 screen cap on the site. orange to Rx
http://www.brultech.com/RS232%20diagram.htm

[port1]

Thanks Chris,
So I guess the big deal when it comes to the micro CT's (and the little direction arrow) is in the following scenarios

a) doing a 240 volt breaker (a/c, pool pump, stove...) the arrows for each wire need to be opposite

b) putting multiple ct's into one aux (channel), the arrows for like line's need to be same direction, and vice versa.

I guess the trick for B is knowing which line feeds which breaker.  Hopefully mine is every other like the example shows..

I think my panel might have an extra row?  I recall in the winter we moved some breakers around during a reno, I end up moving the double a/c breaker up one spot. In the spring the a/c would not turn on.  My hvac friend came over, noticed, and then moved it back down one spot.  It worked....     Only ever having experience with a Siemens board, I thought doubles could be placed anywhere.  (is this at all related?)   I am pretty handy with installing anything electrical (plugs, switches, lights....), but must admit inside the panel, aside from plunking in a new breaker for a new circuit, I am not too knowledgeable on the mechanics of how it all works ......

Andrew

Andrew:
It should make no difference where you place that "two pole" breaker, unless it's in a location on your Siemens panel that is dedicated to another circuit.
The entire bus (left and right side) is live.
If you have a dead spot on your bus, it's time to replace that panel guy!
That could be an indication of a failure, or poor connection.
The entire length of the bus must carry current.  If you install a breaker in a slot that has no power, that connection is poor, and you should not trust that connection.

And, if I may sir, I would use "bolt down" breakers for confirmed connections and no chance of loose or poor continuity.  Don't know if sold in Canada, but I always choose Square D panels for such a premium installation, and peace of mind.
Don't scrimp on a "budget" panel, sir, especially with all your "stuff".  And, ask your electrician for the option to install surge suppression on the entire panel.  That's what I did, and I've had no issues with surges or lightning on any electrical item or appliance in my dwelling...and it wasn't expensive at all. If you want the ultimate, ask your electrician friends about "isolated ground" for your electronics.  That's the way to go...direct path to ground for all your important stuff, such as PC's, which like nice, clean power.  (P.S.  I wired everything in my dwelling myself and I know I did it way better than my electrician friends, because I spent a lot of time making sure it was perfect.)

You've helped me quite a bit with my weather station, so I don't mind if you ask for advice on line voltage from me.  I feel obligated to assist you anytime.

Henry

[mackbig]

Thanks for the tips Henry.  When I redo my panel, I will do it right, cause I only plan to do it once.

Andrew

[mackbig]

Got it working.  After two very dumb errors ...

The etherport was not working, double checked my termination of the Rj45 connectors on the cat5 I ran, bot them at Lowes, they did not have Leviton which I am used to, poor quality , so I re-seated. still nothing.  Checked my network hub, I terminated a spare cat5....  so I redid on the correct wire...  guess that is what happens when you go to work at 5am 4 days in a week, the extra half hours sleep missed really adds up.

2nd dumb move.   I plugged into port 5 on my switch.  after running the etherport up to my 2nd floor switch 4 times, realized port 5 does not work when you are chaining with a cable modem....  again sleep dep.

Finally got everything working.  Attempted to install the tenecmserver software, but its not connecting.  Too late to trouble shoot.  The very basic software that comes with it says I am currently using 2200 watts, but it is very basic, so hopefully I can figure out why the tenholder software is not connecting.  Need some graphs and such.

Andrew

[tomcj2]

It should make no difference where you place that "two pole" breaker, unless it's in a location on your Siemens panel that is dedicated to another circuit.
The entire bus (left and right side) is live.
If you have a dead spot on your bus, it's time to replace that panel guy!

Canadian FPE Stab-Lok  panels were ( and possibly still are) constructed in such a way that 2 adjacent breaker spaces could be on the same phase. In other words the breaker spaces going from top to bottom on a Federal Pioneer Panel are

Phase "A"          Phase "A"
Phase "A"          Phase "A"
Phase "B"          Phase "B"
Phase "B"          Phase "B"
Phase "A"          Phase "A"
Phase "A"          Phase "A"   and so on.

  Large breakers ( 60 A and above, if I remember correctly) took 8 breaker spaces, 4 on each side of the panel.  


Federal Pacific Panels ( USA), and all other brands of panels that I have ever seen alternate "A" "B" all the way down.  ( except 3 phase, but lets not go there)

Federal Pioneer ( the Canadian panel) is made by Schneider Electric.  They also make Square D.  
A Canadian FPE 15A breaker costs around $5.  To buy one in the USA may cost $30 or more, Federal Pacific has been out of business for years.  The breakers look identacle, but the CSA, or UL listing on the Canadian breakers forbids use of them in the USA.

[SLOweather]

Update:

I'm off today, and coincidentally, PG$E read the meter about an hour ago. I ran out and read it as soon as the reader left.

After some ciphering on the last bill, and a little math, I believe our use is down 11%, or 2.6 Kwh/day, saving us about $12 for the month.

[mackbig]

I have all the software working now.  Was obviously not thinking too clearly last night, with my couple of self imposed fubar's.   None of it is the point and click trial and error type, you actually have to read some fine print in the manuals.... a missed serial number was the hangupon tenserver

Just need to decide what to monitor now.  5 ct's sounds like a fair number to start, but considering you need two for a/c, that leaves only three to pick.  And that's if I dont monitor something like pool pump.   Of course those will both stop running in a few weeks....  But still the inefficient a/c is the of the reasons I bot this thing.   Oh well they are only 4 for $20...........

Its working pretty good.  I wrote down the outside meter at midnight, 5am, and 3pm. then compared to datalogger values. 5am to  3pm was bang on. 22.791 kWh's according to the ecm1240. and the meter said 23 kWh.... since the display does not show decimals I an be off by .5 kwh's at each visual read.

Andrew

ps: only odd thing is that channel two is showing .33 amps and there is nothing plugged into that one.

[Cienega32]

Do you guys (whoever owns one) have the plug in CTs or screw-downs? Any wireless owners?

[mackbig]

The ct's all go into screw downs.  The wiring on the ct's is good and long with solder'd tips, so they are easy to insert.   Comes with some tiny marettes for combining, and various resistors for use on aux 5.   The only "cheap" part is the rs-232 serial wire, looks like they got a bunch of sell-off cables in bulk, and just cut them in two, the wires inside are tiny and flimsy, hard to screw down.

The wireless is not WIFI, I might have got it if it was normal wifi.  So its 20-25 more for the base with wireless, then you have to get a zigbee receiver too.  I have a pretty good wired network running through the house, and did not trust this proprietary wireless signal getting from basement to upstairs where pc is. i am running the serial in to the etherport adaptor.  Its actually a good price for the adaptor, even on tigerdirect, the only one they had was substantially more.

Other surprise was the size fo the module, it is very small, not sure why but chris's picture made me think it was larger....

Andrew

Do you guys (whoever owns one) have the plug in CTs or screw-downs? Any wireless owners?

[mackbig]

All my ct's installed now.

Tracking:
Kitchen lights - aux1
office and weather pc - aux2
home theatre - aux3
a/c - aux 4 (takes two ct's)

Ordering more ct's this week.

Only comments about the micro ct's is that the wire could be a little longer. They are substantially shorter than 200amp clamp ons. I guess easily extended, but the stock ones should be a bit longer in my opnion.

Andrew

[port1]

  Andrew, sir:
How much did you spend/will spend in the aggregate?
Yes...Canadian dollars o.k.
 

Yes, the module is surprisingly small...I agree. 

Henry

[mackbig]

C$ 415 in peak summer every 2 months.  11 cent per kWh (all in cost post, actual cost per kWh earlier)
C$ 290 in lowest 2 month period

so $145-207 per month

Andrew

PS: Here are my last 12 monhts, bimonthly kWh amounts.
Month     days kW       kWh's per day in period
Jul 02,09  64 3778.00 59.03
Apr 29,09  61 2738.00 44.89
Feb 27,09  56 3014.00 53.82
Jan 02,09  65 3401.00 52.32
Oct 29,08  62 3533.00 56.98
Aug 28,08  62 5681.00 91.63
Jun 27,08  59 3653.00 61.92

Andrew, sir:
How much did you spend/will spend in the aggregate?
Yes...Canadian dollars o.k.
 

Yes, the module is surprisingly small...I agree. 

Henry

[port1]

   Hmmn...interesting.  Of course,the summer is always the highest consumption, with A/C and the pool pump.
My location has LIPA (Long Island Power Authority) and we have high rates as a result of the Shoreham Nuclear Power Plant debt (debacle).
I spend twice what you do on electricity, monthly.
Sinful...
 

Henry

[mackbig]

$0.007 per kWh on top of 5.6-6.7 cents per kWh is for our debt retirement. posted our breakdown in http://www.wxforum.net/index.php?topic=5148.msg45930#msg45930

Andrew

and we have high rates as a result of the Shoreham Nuclear Power Plant debt (debacle).
I spend twice what you do on electricity, monthly.
Sinful...
 

Henry

[Cienega32]

The wireless is not WIFI, I might have got it if it was normal wifi.  So its 20-25 more for the base with wireless, then you have to get a zigbee receiver too.  I have a pretty good wired network running through the house, and did not trust this proprietary wireless signal getting from basement to upstairs where pc is. i am running the serial in to the etherport adaptor.  Its actually a good price for the adaptor, even on tigerdirect, the only one they had was substantially more.

Thanks for the info/perspective on that. I would be on the short end right now, if I had to hard-wire it, unless I ran another machine in the garage (main panel location).

It might be a moot point anyway. I was going to defer my Boltek funds to this great looking toy but my Craftsman dirt bucket scoop on the rider mower bit the big one yesterday after 3 years of scraping and moving and grading out tons of dirt. "Coincidentally" enough, it costs about the same as this device. Being I'm in the middle of moving 120 more tons of dirt, guess what I just came back from buying... 

[Sigdigit]

You are the King of Dirt!