Author Topic: 2 question Elevation and Height Above Ground .  (Read 830 times)

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Offline Mabcmb

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2 question Elevation and Height Above Ground .
« on: August 23, 2019, 11:10:10 AM »
OK here's my 2 question , has anyone found a way to change there elevation on WU with the new page without unregistered  it and starting a new station  ? Also what does height above ground mean ? Is that your station from the ground up at your house / business ?  Or is it height of station off the ground  plus elevation ?
« Last Edit: August 23, 2019, 11:20:03 AM by Mabcmb »

Offline galfert

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Re: 2 question Elevation and Height Above Ground .
« Reply #1 on: August 23, 2019, 11:27:24 AM »
You can't change elevation. It used to be something that you could enter. With the new WU it is automatically determined when you create a station. If you want to test you don't need to delete your old station ID. Just create a new station ID. You can have as many as you want.

Height above ground is different and that you can control. As it relates to Weather Underground your height above ground is the height of your anemometer.

In regards to other weather sites that you may report weather data to, then you must understand what they are asking from you as it may differ from what WU is asking.
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Offline Mabcmb

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Re: 2 question Elevation and Height Above Ground .
« Reply #2 on: August 23, 2019, 11:47:21 AM »
You can't change elevation. It used to be something that you could enter. With the new WU it is automatically determined when you create a station. If you want to test you don't need to delete your old station ID. Just create a new station ID. You can have as many as you want.

Height above ground is different and that you can control. As it relates to Weather Underground your height above ground is the height of your anemometer.

In regards to other weather sites that you may report weather data to, then you must understand what they are asking from you as it may differ from what WU is asking.

Thanks for the answer !! I was hoping I could just change mine because with all the stations around me are 200 to 300 feet higher . I guess google or were ever WU gets there elevation from thinks I'm in a deep hollow lol lol . I live in the flat desert so that's impossible .

Offline davidmc36

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Re: 2 question Elevation and Height Above Ground .
« Reply #3 on: August 23, 2019, 12:14:55 PM »
Shouldn't HOG be where your barometer is situated?

Offline SoMDWx

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Re: 2 question Elevation and Height Above Ground .
« Reply #4 on: August 23, 2019, 12:47:50 PM »
HOG = AGL
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Offline galfert

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Re: 2 question Elevation and Height Above Ground .
« Reply #5 on: August 23, 2019, 01:25:56 PM »
Shouldn't HOG be where your barometer is situated?

No. Elevation is supposed to be where you barometer is located. The fact that WU has removed this functionality (to dial it in) means that they think we are too stupid to handle that. So they go by terrible map data and use ground level as the elevation.....they are the stupid ones. Nobody cares about ground level...that isn't where the barometer is. Sure it might be close but it introduces a margin of error.

To WU credit I get what they are doing. There are a lot of people that are confused. If they left elevation up to the user then many were entering in the height of their poles where their station was situated instead of their elevation above sea level (plus height above ground for the barometer). But many people are also confused and think the barometer is outside up on the pole. I think WU should have left the ability to customize for those that know what they are doing.

That leaves Height Above Ground to specify. This is supposed to be for your anemometer.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2019, 01:30:38 PM by galfert »
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Offline galfert

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Re: 2 question Elevation and Height Above Ground .
« Reply #6 on: August 23, 2019, 02:23:48 PM »
You can't change elevation. It used to be something that you could enter. With the new WU it is automatically determined when you create a station. If you want to test you don't need to delete your old station ID. Just create a new station ID. You can have as many as you want.

Height above ground is different and that you can control. As it relates to Weather Underground your height above ground is the height of your anemometer.

In regards to other weather sites that you may report weather data to, then you must understand what they are asking from you as it may differ from what WU is asking.

Thanks for the answer !! I was hoping I could just change mine because with all the stations around me are 200 to 300 feet higher . I guess google or were ever WU gets there elevation from thinks I'm in a deep hollow lol lol . I live in the flat desert so that's impossible .

Your elevation is 2850 Ft. I got that from several sources not from WU. But WU has the correct information in your case. It seems to me like WU has good data regarding your location. The stations around you Victorville as there is not much to the north of you are not more than 100 feet higher. I don't see anyone 200 feet higher. Besides your neighbors having different elevation I don't see what the problem is. The whole point of comparing station to station based on Sea Level Pressure is so that you can ignore differences in elevation between you and your neighbors. It puts everyone on equal ground....literally.

If your barometer is calibrated "correctly" to your elevation it doesn't matter that your neighbors are 100 or 200 feet higher. I say calibrated "correctly" because this means you have taken into account what your correct elevation is without using your neighbors as reference.  You are about 30 feet lower than KVCV airport. But that doesn't matter. Your station pressure (absolute pressure) will be different ....but nobody reports that absolute number.....your adjusted Sea Level Pressures should be the same even though your elevations are slightly different.

Bottom line is this. I'm hearing you say you want to change your elevation to be 200 feet higher because your neighbors are at that elevation and you thin you are on flat ground and you think you are not in a hole. If so this is the wrong approach. Please provide some station IDs that are 200 feet higher so I can take a closer look.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2019, 02:26:23 PM by galfert »
WS-2000 & WS-2902A | Ecowitt GW1000 | WeatherBridge (Meteobridge)
WU: KFLWINTE111  |  PWSweather: KFLWINTE111
CWOP: FW3708  |  AWEKAS: 14814
Windy: pws-f075acbe
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Offline Mabcmb

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Re: 2 question Elevation and Height Above Ground .
« Reply #7 on: August 23, 2019, 02:34:47 PM »

Your elevation is 2850 Ft. I got that from several sources not from WU. But WU has the correct information in your case. It seems to me like WU has good data regarding your location. The stations around you Victorville as there is not much to the north of you are not more than 100 feet higher. I don't see anyone 200 feet higher. Besides your neighbors having different elevation I don't see what the problem is. The whole point of comparing station to station based on Sea Level Pressure is so that you can ignore differences in elevation between you and your neighbors. It puts everyone on equal ground....literally.

If your barometer is calibrated "correctly" to your elevation it doesn't matter that your neighbors are 100 or 200 feet higher. I say calibrated "correctly" because this means you have taken into account what your correct elevation is without using your neighbors as reference.  You are about 30 feet lower than KVCV airport. But that doesn't matter. Your station pressure (absolute pressure) will be different ....but nobody reports that absolute number.....your adjusted Sea Level Pressures should be the same even though your elevations are slightly different.

Bottom line is this. I'm hearing you say you want to change your elevation to be 200 feet higher because your neighbors are at that elevation and you thin you are on flat ground and you think you are not in a hole. If so this is the wrong approach. Please provide some station IDs that are 200 feet higher so I can take a closer look.

This station 3/4 of a  mile away ( down hill from me ) and it shows Elevation 3087  https://www.wunderground.com/dashboard/pws/KCAADELA10

This station a mile from me shows Elevation 3205  https://www.wunderground.com/dashboard/pws/KCAVICTO68 

There is no problem I just wanted to know how to change my elevation but I guess I cant . And my phone GPS shows 3001 ft but like I said it's not a problem .
« Last Edit: August 23, 2019, 02:49:06 PM by Mabcmb »

Offline CW2274

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Re: 2 question Elevation and Height Above Ground .
« Reply #8 on: August 23, 2019, 02:54:43 PM »
As it relates to Weather Underground your height above ground is the height of your anemometer.
Seriously? If so, that's really stupid. The only thing that matters in PWS land relative to elevation is your pressure, and that the height of your console MSL, nothing more, nothing less.

Offline alanb

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Re: 2 question Elevation and Height Above Ground .
« Reply #9 on: August 23, 2019, 02:55:51 PM »
You can't change elevation. It used to be something that you could enter. With the new WU it is automatically determined when you create a station. If you want to test you don't need to delete your old station ID. Just create a new station ID. You can have as many as you want.

Height above ground is different and that you can control. As it relates to Weather Underground your height above ground is the height of your anemometer.

In regards to other weather sites that you may report weather data to, then you must understand what they are asking from you as it may differ from what WU is asking.
So, the elevation of the barometer is the ground level elevation PLUS the height above ground. Is WU using height above ground to increment the elevation of the barometric sensor from the map published ground elevation and calculate the adjusted pressure value accordingly?
Alan

Offline CW2274

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Re: 2 question Elevation and Height Above Ground .
« Reply #10 on: August 23, 2019, 03:02:33 PM »
You can't change elevation. It used to be something that you could enter. With the new WU it is automatically determined when you create a station. If you want to test you don't need to delete your old station ID. Just create a new station ID. You can have as many as you want.

Height above ground is different and that you can control. As it relates to Weather Underground your height above ground is the height of your anemometer.

In regards to other weather sites that you may report weather data to, then you must understand what they are asking from you as it may differ from what WU is asking.
So, the elevation of the barometer is the ground level elevation PLUS the height above ground.
Yes. For instance, say ground level of your house is 100' MSL (Mean Sea Level, which is correct terminology) and your console is on the second floor which is 20' AGL (Above Ground Level), then your console should be set at 120', which is the MSL height.

Offline alanb

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Re: 2 question Elevation and Height Above Ground .
« Reply #11 on: August 23, 2019, 03:22:38 PM »
So, the elevation of the barometer is the ground level elevation PLUS the height above ground.
Yes. For instance, say ground level of your house is 100' MSL (Mean Sea Level, which is correct terminology) and your console is on the second floor which is 20' AGL (Above Ground Level), then your console should be set at 120', which is the MSL height.
Then if WU is using the height above ground (AGL) in that way, I don't see anything wrong with their methodology.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2019, 03:26:29 PM by alanb »
Alan

Offline CW2274

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Re: 2 question Elevation and Height Above Ground .
« Reply #12 on: August 23, 2019, 03:28:16 PM »
So, the elevation of the barometer is the ground level elevation PLUS the height above ground.
Yes. For instance, say ground level of your house is 100' MSL (Mean Sea Level, which is correct terminology) and your console is on the second floor which is 20' AGL (Above Ground Level), then your console should be set at 120', which is the MSL height.
Then if WU is using the AGL in that way, I don't see anything wrong with their methodology.
I have no idea if they do or not, but if they do, how would they know the height of your console? What if it's 200' up in a 20 story building? That's equates to a 0.20" difference in pressure, all things being equal.

Offline alanb

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Re: 2 question Elevation and Height Above Ground .
« Reply #13 on: August 23, 2019, 03:33:16 PM »
So, the elevation of the barometer is the ground level elevation PLUS the height above ground.
Yes. For instance, say ground level of your house is 100' MSL (Mean Sea Level, which is correct terminology) and your console is on the second floor which is 20' AGL (Above Ground Level), then your console should be set at 120', which is the MSL height.
Then if WU is using the AGL in that way, I don't see anything wrong with their methodology.
I have no idea if they do or not, but if they do, how would they know the height of your console? What if it's 200' up in a 20 story building? That's equates to a 0.20" difference in pressure, all things being equal.
Wouldn't you just enter 200' in Height Above Ground setting then? I guess I am missing something here.
Alan

Offline nincehelser

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Re: 2 question Elevation and Height Above Ground .
« Reply #14 on: August 23, 2019, 03:38:01 PM »
As it relates to Weather Underground your height above ground is the height of your anemometer.
Seriously? If so, that's really stupid. The only thing that matters in PWS land relative to elevation is your pressure, and that the height of your console MSL, nothing more, nothing less.

The height above ground of the PWS anemometer is sometimes used for tracking storm damage from winds.  In other words, they consider the height of the anemometer above ground as well as the wind reading to "normalize" the wind data.

Offline ValentineWeather

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Re: 2 question Elevation and Height Above Ground .
« Reply #15 on: August 23, 2019, 03:41:17 PM »
I always thought height above ground was for Temperature/humidity sensor. It also asks what type of surface  IE: grass, bare ground, asphalt, rooftop etc.
Randy

Offline CW2274

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Re: 2 question Elevation and Height Above Ground .
« Reply #16 on: August 23, 2019, 03:45:06 PM »
So, the elevation of the barometer is the ground level elevation PLUS the height above ground.
Yes. For instance, say ground level of your house is 100' MSL (Mean Sea Level, which is correct terminology) and your console is on the second floor which is 20' AGL (Above Ground Level), then your console should be set at 120', which is the MSL height.
Then if WU is using the AGL in that way, I don't see anything wrong with their methodology.
I have no idea if they do or not, but if they do, how would they know the height of your console? What if it's 200' up in a 20 story building? That's equates to a 0.20" difference in pressure, all things being equal.
Wouldn't you just enter 200' in Height Above Ground setting then? I guess I am missing something here.
Atmospheric pressure doesn't care how high your console is AGL, it cares how high it is MSL.

Offline CW2274

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Re: 2 question Elevation and Height Above Ground .
« Reply #17 on: August 23, 2019, 03:47:44 PM »
As it relates to Weather Underground your height above ground is the height of your anemometer.
Seriously? If so, that's really stupid. The only thing that matters in PWS land relative to elevation is your pressure, and that the height of your console MSL, nothing more, nothing less.

The height above ground of the PWS anemometer is sometimes used for tracking storm damage from winds.  In other words, they consider the height of the anemometer above ground as well as the wind reading to "normalize" the wind data.
Wow. Like their isn't a million variables that could render that data completely useless.

Offline CW2274

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Re: 2 question Elevation and Height Above Ground .
« Reply #18 on: August 23, 2019, 03:49:57 PM »
I always thought height above ground was for Temperature/humidity sensor. It also asks what type of surface  IE: grass, bare ground, asphalt, rooftop etc.
For AGL purposes, yes, but for pressure, it should be console height MSL.

Offline nincehelser

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Re: 2 question Elevation and Height Above Ground .
« Reply #19 on: August 23, 2019, 03:51:15 PM »
As it relates to Weather Underground your height above ground is the height of your anemometer.
Seriously? If so, that's really stupid. The only thing that matters in PWS land relative to elevation is your pressure, and that the height of your console MSL, nothing more, nothing less.

The height above ground of the PWS anemometer is sometimes used for tracking storm damage from winds.  In other words, they consider the height of the anemometer above ground as well as the wind reading to "normalize" the wind data.
Wow. Like their isn't a million variables that could render that data completely useless.

It seems to work well enough for the task.  I've seen it in action when they were assessing storm damage in my county.

Also, if you read the CWOP manual on siting, it mentions noting the anemometer height in the metadata.  That's what wunderground is doing here.

Wunderground used to have an "i" with a circle around it by the height above ground field that linked to a graphic explaining what they wanted.  That seems to be gone now.

« Last Edit: August 23, 2019, 04:02:30 PM by nincehelser »

Offline CW2274

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Re: 2 question Elevation and Height Above Ground .
« Reply #20 on: August 23, 2019, 03:54:23 PM »
As it relates to Weather Underground your height above ground is the height of your anemometer.
Seriously? If so, that's really stupid. The only thing that matters in PWS land relative to elevation is your pressure, and that the height of your console MSL, nothing more, nothing less.

The height above ground of the PWS anemometer is sometimes used for tracking storm damage from winds.  In other words, they consider the height of the anemometer above ground as well as the wind reading to "normalize" the wind data.
Wow. Like their isn't a million variables that could render that data completely useless.

It seems to work well enough for the task.  I've seen it in action when they were assessing storm damage in my county.
Fair enough. It would seem a rather ridiculous parameter as a "one size fits all" to me though.

Offline Mabcmb

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Re: 2 question Elevation and Height Above Ground .
« Reply #21 on: August 23, 2019, 04:09:29 PM »
Thank you everyone for the replies .  I'm now more confused then ever  :shock: :shock: . I now know you cannot change your elevation after you set up you weather station .  I think I have my " Height Above Ground " set right because my weather station is 30ft above the ground and that's what I put in WU . Once again thanks to everyone for  taken there time and trouble answering the question !!

Offline CW2274

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Re: 2 question Elevation and Height Above Ground .
« Reply #22 on: August 23, 2019, 04:16:02 PM »
As it relates to Weather Underground your height above ground is the height of your anemometer.
Seriously? If so, that's really stupid. The only thing that matters in PWS land relative to elevation is your pressure, and that the height of your console MSL, nothing more, nothing less.

The height above ground of the PWS anemometer is sometimes used for tracking storm damage from winds.  In other words, they consider the height of the anemometer above ground as well as the wind reading to "normalize" the wind data.
Wow. Like their isn't a million variables that could render that data completely useless.
Also, if you read the CWOP manual on siting, it mentions noting the anemometer height in the metadata.  That's what wunderground is doing here.
Fine and dandy.....for wind data. Certainly has nothing to do with pressure data.

Offline nincehelser

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Re: 2 question Elevation and Height Above Ground .
« Reply #23 on: August 23, 2019, 04:28:42 PM »
As it relates to Weather Underground your height above ground is the height of your anemometer.
Seriously? If so, that's really stupid. The only thing that matters in PWS land relative to elevation is your pressure, and that the height of your console MSL, nothing more, nothing less.

The height above ground of the PWS anemometer is sometimes used for tracking storm damage from winds.  In other words, they consider the height of the anemometer above ground as well as the wind reading to "normalize" the wind data.
Wow. Like their isn't a million variables that could render that data completely useless.
Also, if you read the CWOP manual on siting, it mentions noting the anemometer height in the metadata.  That's what wunderground is doing here.
Fine and dandy.....for wind data. Certainly has nothing to do with pressure data.

Not for wunderground, but it might for other equipment.

For example, Weatherflow asks for height above ground for their "Air" sensor.  They add it to the internet-reported elevation for pressure calculations.

So it's important know the context in which the question is asked.

https://help.weatherflow.com/hc/en-us/articles/115005398308-FAQs
Quote
How is pressure displayed?
The value displayed on the station home screen of the Smart Weather app is sea level pressure. Also known as relative pressure or barometric pressure, this is an adjusted value based on temperature and total height above sea level (elevation + height above ground).

Offline alanb

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Re: 2 question Elevation and Height Above Ground .
« Reply #24 on: August 23, 2019, 04:53:32 PM »
Interesting discussion learned some things. Thanks to all who responded.
Alan

 

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