Author Topic: Are we getting too soft?  (Read 1343 times)

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Offline Jstx

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Re: Are we getting too soft?
« Reply #25 on: July 01, 2018, 05:58:24 PM »
Instead of spending over 5 grand on "heat pumps", maybe we should all go back to the old school cheap space heaters and window A/C systems many had back into the 1980s and before... The women would not like it I bet... :D I do not care for heat pumps myself... I would rather have a gas log system. Also the window A/C units now really do cool nicely, and plug into a normal household outlet instead of those 3 prong 220 setups.
They have something available I believe is called geo-thermal AC/Heating.
They lay pvc pipe at a specific depth in your yard and run water through these pipes using the ground water supply as cooling/heating agent. I'm not sure how far north this would work as the ground water gets colder in northern latitudes. In my area of Florida the ground water is 72 degrees year round so it would work perfectly.

Here you go:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geothermal_heat_pump

Good systems if you live on dirt, instead of mostly sand and limestone rock like me  :shock:. The near area more than a century ago was a sandpit and quarry mined to build much of San Antonio, as the SA&AP railroad and SA river was/are adjacent.

Offline Bushman

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Re: Are we getting too soft?
« Reply #26 on: July 01, 2018, 06:10:39 PM »
Instead of spending over 5 grand on "heat pumps", maybe we should all go back to the old school cheap space heaters and window A/C systems many had back into the 1980s and before... The women would not like it I bet... :D I do not care for heat pumps myself... I would rather have a gas log system. Also the window A/C units now really do cool nicely, and plug into a normal household outlet instead of those 3 prong 220 setups.
They have something available I believe is called geo-thermal AC/Heating.
They lay pvc pipe at a specific depth in your yard and run water through these pipes using the ground water supply as cooling/heating agent. I'm not sure how far north this would work as the ground water gets colder in northern latitudes. In my area of Florida the ground water is 72 degrees year round so it would work perfectly.

Friends have this at 50 degrees North in Western Canada.  Water is about 55F year round.  Instant cooling and much reduced heating bills.

Offline DoctorKnow

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Re: Are we getting too soft?
« Reply #27 on: July 01, 2018, 07:27:31 PM »
jstx,

Heat pumps are not cheap by any means, and dry the air out to a point that many including myself get terrible sinus upper respiratory illnesses. I have been using infrared heat from a couple of amish style space heaters over the last few winters, and have not been sick since doing so. When I turn on the heat, I want good high searing heat, not 90ish coming out of the vents.
I do know people around here are using those geothermal systems, the local college has it, and I was not all that impressed with the heating output. I wonder if they are installing the pipes deep enough? It was a mess when they installed it, and it will ruin your yard if it is already established. A muddy mess. No thanks.


Offline wxthomson

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Re: Are we getting too soft?
« Reply #28 on: July 01, 2018, 08:18:24 PM »
HISTORICAL POINT: for almost 200,000 years, homo sapiens et.al. had neither climitilogical warnings nor HVAC systems and yet they (we) survived.


yes, but only a small fraction of the rate we survive today.

I do agree with your point that there is TMI (too much information)

Offline spc fresno

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Re: Are we getting too soft?
« Reply #29 on: July 07, 2018, 01:54:03 AM »
I remember an awful lot of 90 degree days years ago and I don't remember large areas of 'heat advisories' and 'dangerous heat warnings'.  Yes, it's hot and uncomfortable, but is 95 with high humidity any more hot and uncomfortable today that it was in the 70s?  Seems like back then we expected summers to be hot and miserable and we simply prepared and adjusted for it without having to be told we needed to by means of multiple rounds of sensationalistic warnings.

Yes, at least in my opinion. I read in the world news about a ridiculous "heat wave" in Britain, where temperatures got to 90 degrees (Fahrenheit). And it was a big deal. Yes, I understand that it is extremely uncommon to see that kind of heat in England, but the way I see it, so long as it isn't extremely life threatening, I don't believe it needs to be broadcast all over the world. The recent heat wave in Montreal is different; it killed many people, but I don't think a week of 100° heat indices in South Dakota is exactly 'dangerous' (unless the humidity is really high).

This is all from my perspective in Fresno, where our heat is dry. Personally, I've never felt a very humid heat, which might be worse than I currently think. Here, we hit 105° at least 5 days a year, and occasionally reach 110, but the humidity is usually around 10%.

(P.S. We don't usually get any heat advisories and such as it is, though L.A. and Sacramento do more often, most likely because of the different ways that the forecast offices portray the heat.)

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Offline CW2274

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Re: Are we getting too soft?
« Reply #30 on: July 07, 2018, 02:30:37 AM »
I remember an awful lot of 90 degree days years ago and I don't remember large areas of 'heat advisories' and 'dangerous heat warnings'.  Yes, it's hot and uncomfortable, but is 95 with high humidity any more hot and uncomfortable today that it was in the 70s?  Seems like back then we expected summers to be hot and miserable and we simply prepared and adjusted for it without having to be told we needed to by means of multiple rounds of sensationalistic warnings.
Personally, I've never felt a very humid heat, which might be worse than I currently think.
Oh my, you haven't experienced the great outdoors until you've been in a 95F temp with a 75F dew. Life draining comes to mind....exactly why I've now lived in Tucson for 30 years.

Offline WeatherHost

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Re: Are we getting too soft?
« Reply #31 on: July 07, 2018, 06:24:42 AM »
Personally, I've never felt a very humid heat, which might be worse than I currently think.
Oh my, you haven't experienced the great outdoors until you've been in a 95F temp with a 75F dew. Life draining comes to mind....exactly why I've now lived in Tucson for 30 years.

This was our July 5th from 10AM to 7PM.  At 96 and 77 you drip a puddle just standing still.  Somewhere around 4-5PM that after noon, I was out walking a mile or so.  Got back and took a dip in the pool.  Water temp was around 95 also.


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Online BeaverMeadow

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Re: Are we getting too soft?
« Reply #32 on: July 07, 2018, 08:24:39 AM »
I don't think we or the NWS are getting too soft. Data proves that certain groups of people can be in serious danger when heat indexes reach certain levels for extended periods.People do die without taking precautions. Early and multiple warnings make sense even if it can be annoying at times.


Offline Intheswamp

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Re: Are we getting too soft?
« Reply #33 on: July 07, 2018, 08:59:07 AM »
Back around '92-'93 we moved into our brick house that was built around 1950.  It was built just after WWII had ended....glass was cheap, propane was cheap, and some thought was given to heat being as the western, southern, and eastern windows all have metal canopies above them for shade.  And since propane was cheap....why insulate???

There was a 220v window unit in the living room and a small 7k btu window unit in a bathroom (that didn't work).  Also, through the years all the windows had been basically painted shut.  Did I mention the windows in the living room were something like 8'x6' and most of the other rooms' windows were at least 4'x5' going on up to 7'x5'?  Single-pane, steel-framed windows.  *Very* energy-efficient!!!  #-o  Wintertime we would struggle to heat the house with propane via one floor furnace and some space heaters...it could be chilly, even here in the deep south.  Summertimes...mostly miserable, the big 220v unit would struggle to cool things...the living room was the favorite room in the house....floor fans, pedestal fans, fans, fans, were scatter over the house.  It was livable but the heat and humidity were ever present in the summer. 

In 2000 I decided we needed to do something to make life a bit more enjoyable so I started researching installing a central h/c system.  Geo-thermal was not yet primetime but it was interesting.  I somehow manage to contact a guy (George I think his name was) that was basically head of research over the Georthermal Heating and Cooling Super-Duper Fancy-Smancy Doowaditty Association.  Well, it was whatever group was spearheading research in geothermal at the time.  :grin:  He was a nice fellow and was very eager to help me with my questions.  We talked on several occasions via telephone.  Geothermal, at that time, definitely wasn't new but it was still kind of the rare system around here.  After looking at some of the numbers including the added expense I still decided to go with geothermal.  In January 2001 the installation was completed of a 5-ton closed-loop system which required 5 wells.  These are perpendicular wells drilled with a well-water drilling rig.  This did completely destroy that area of the yard...have a short-lived monsoon come through while the drilling was going on did not help matters, but within a year or so you could not tell anything had gone on there.  Via a heat-exchanger the air supplied to the house is either heated or cooled. 

Our power-bill dropped tremendously (propane consumption dropped, too!) but yet the entire house was comfortable for the first time in history!!!  The results were nothing less than amazing!!!  Now, seventeen years later, the system continues to function nicely.  The system has an LED that lights up when you turn the temperature up (heating) beyond a few degrees where it's currently at to inform you that the "heat strips" have been turned on...but, there were no heat strips installed so this is just a placebo effect, I guess, being as we've never needed any auxiliary heating.  Whether heating or cooling you can set the temp where you can hang meat in the house or cook a goose.  By accessing the temperature many feet below the earth the system is drawing from a very stable temperature from which the heat-exchanger usually only has to move the temperature a few degrees to reach the system temperature.  I can't remember the term used, but it was designed to achieve it's spec performance in ten years, so I guess the system has seen it's "better" years now, but it continues to work very well for us.  In these seventeen years we've had to call on the installer one time for service....it ended up ants had build a nest in the unit. :x

Anyhow, I just thought I'd share our geothermal experience....  ;)

Now, as for getting too soft?  Yep.  If I look around I see *lots* more overweight people than I did 35 years ago...I'm not just talking about the guy or gal with a little (or big) pooch in the belly, I'm talking about the FAT ones that have decided to let society take care of them.  And if you look it's usually a family trait....parents that are too heavy checking out at the grocery store with an overloaded buggy while their 10-12 year old kids watching them all weight 50-75 pounds more than I do.  Yeah, they need their a/c and need to stay inside to keep from falling out and having society come pick them up on an ambulance, take care of the ER visit (and hospital stay?), and lawyers involved (certainly this was someone else's fault!!!).   

Heat-advisories for people suffering from health issues are important...breathing issues, heart issues, etc.,. 

Kids playing sports...they don't know when to quit.  Adults need to pay attention and be responsible for the kids.

The outdoor workers do need a heads-up on what conditions to expect.  Keeping in mind that they need to rehydrate regularly is important.  Maybe even knocking off during the heat of the day is required...depends.  I work everyday in the center of our little town.  Surrounded by concrete and asphalt...high-traffic street in front of me (so lots of engine heat and exhaust fumes  #-o ) ....and no A/C.  I sweat...a lot.  I drink water regularly, a gatorade all along, etc.,.  Do I heed the heat advisories?...I don't pay them much attention.  Even without a "heat advisory" type of day a person can easily overheat.   I just know when it's hot and I know what my body tells me to do and what it tells me not to do.  Did I mention that I sweat a *lot*?   Heat-exhaustion or heat-stroke can jump on a person before they know it...I suppose I've just been fortunate.  I work for myself, though.  For someone working for a company that company expects their employees to work and the "company" doesn't feel the heat.   A heat-advisory could be a very important notice for the well-being of the employees....the "company" can see the advisories and (legal) consequences of not heeding them...the "company" is more likely to curtail activities a bit in order to be safe. :?

The advisories don't benefit all people but for some they are important. 

Boy did I ramble.... :lol:

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Offline Old Tele man

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Re: Are we getting too soft?
« Reply #34 on: July 07, 2018, 02:47:21 PM »
Providing WX DATA is not the same as playing social NANNY -- We, the people, are responsible for our own actions, not Uncle Gooberment.
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Offline Aardvark

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Re: Are we getting too soft?
« Reply #35 on: July 07, 2018, 08:06:03 PM »
I blame the proliferation of home air conditioning.

The high school I taught at went geothermal.  The building sits with no trees and a flat roof, it gets hot in that building, and after 60 years, they went geothermal. Every building in the Des Moines district is run not only on geothermal but regulated via computer from somewhere.  The temperature is maintained at 72 in the winter and 78  when it is hot enough to fry an egg.  BUT   it is geothermal.  The only gas fired anything is the water heater for washing dishes in the kitchen.  Yeah the kids are soft and not any smarter, but the district will save money.
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Offline CW2274

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Re: Are we getting too soft?
« Reply #36 on: July 20, 2018, 08:55:21 PM »
Seventeen die in the "duck boat", incredibly needlessly because people didn't heed the warnings (or even bother to look) that severe wx was approaching. It's unfathomable to me how none of these people, and more so management, knew what was bearing down on them when they hit the water.
Very sad, and very preventable.

Offline ocala

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Re: Are we getting too soft?
« Reply #37 on: July 20, 2018, 09:09:23 PM »
Seventeen die in the "duck boat", incredibly needlessly because people didn't heed the warnings (or even bother to look) that severe wx was approaching. It's unfathomable to me how none of these people, and more so management, knew what was bearing down on them when they hit the water.
Very sad, and very preventable.
I just heard about that. Didn't read anything on it yet.
If it's true they didn't check the forecast /radar prior to departing that is completely irresponsible..

Offline chief-david

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Re: Are we getting too soft?
« Reply #38 on: July 20, 2018, 09:17:58 PM »
sarcasm.  But we didn't hear the sirens to warn us. 

They should never have been on the water. also sounds like they knew bad storms were coming and the captain told them they did not need life jackets.

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Offline CW2274

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Re: Are we getting too soft?
« Reply #39 on: July 20, 2018, 09:53:09 PM »
the captain told them they did not need life jackets.
Oh yeah, forgot that part......

wow

Offline Intheswamp

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Re: Are we getting too soft?
« Reply #40 on: July 20, 2018, 09:59:07 PM »
Lots of things preventable, but prevention always comes down to human choices and decisions.  The human factor will always be there.  I'm sure if the captain thought it was going to be as bad as it turned out to be he would have docked or told everyone to put on life preservers.  There was probably a forecast of possible storms but the people still thought it would be a fun excursion and...it would't get "that bad".  Fingers will point in all directions, just as they do in most tragedies, but those fingers still won't soothe the broken hearts of those who lost loved ones.  A human tragedy.  :sad:

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Offline CW2274

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Re: Are we getting too soft?
« Reply #41 on: July 20, 2018, 10:17:53 PM »
Lots of things preventable, but prevention always comes down to human choices and decisions.  The human factor will always be there.  I'm sure if the captain thought it was going to be as bad as it turned out to be he would have docked or told everyone to put on life preservers. 
What's one thing that effects every, single person on the planet? Yes, weather. This was a case of utter obviousness by the lost souls, and total incompetence of the captain.
Make no doubt, the class action law suit for wrongful deaths is just around the corner.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2018, 10:19:30 PM by CW2274 »

Offline Intheswamp

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Re: Are we getting too soft?
« Reply #42 on: July 20, 2018, 10:29:33 PM »
Yes, lawyers are lining up...

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Offline ocala

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Re: Are we getting too soft?
« Reply #43 on: July 21, 2018, 05:39:44 AM »
Just watched a video of the boat. Actually there were 2 boats. Not sure which one went down. Bottom line is the captain had plenty of time to order everyone to put on  life jackets.
It looked like so much water was coming over the bow that eventually the boat started slowly going down. The video ends with the water line pretty close to the top of the boat.

Offline Intheswamp

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Re: Are we getting too soft?
« Reply #44 on: July 21, 2018, 08:44:56 AM »
I may be wrong, but I'm thinking that the boat on the right side of the screen is the one that went down.  The camera panned from it to the boat on the left side of the screen and then panned back to the right and the boat was gone.  Very quick.

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Offline Intheswamp

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Re: Are we getting too soft?
« Reply #45 on: July 21, 2018, 09:27:19 AM »
Quote from the Associated Press:
"The National Weather Service in Springfield, about 40 miles (64 kilometers) north of Branson, issued a severe thunderstorm watch for its immediate area Thursday, saying conditions were ripe for winds of 70 mph. It followed up at 6:32 p.m. with a severe thunderstorm warning for three counties that included Branson and the lake. The warning mentioned both locations. The boat went down about 40 minutes later, shortly after 7 p.m."

ETA....
Quote from the Associated Press:
"Brayden Malaske, of Harrah, Oklahoma, boarded a replica 19th-century paddle-wheeler known as the Branson Belle on the same lake just before the storm hit.

At the time, he said, the water seemed calm, and no one was worried about the weather.

"But it suddenly got very dark," he recalled."


Quote from the Associated Press:
"The Ride the Ducks tour begins in downtown Branson, where the vehicles take passengers on a tour while the captain cracks jokes and points out landmarks. Eventually, the boats pull up to the lake and slowly enter the water with a small splash.

After a few minutes on the water, the vehicles return to land and to their home base, which features a store selling candy and souvenirs."
« Last Edit: July 21, 2018, 09:34:37 AM by Intheswamp »

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Offline galfert

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Re: Are we getting too soft?
« Reply #46 on: July 21, 2018, 11:48:39 AM »
I kid but I say, if it were not for AC the population in Florida would be zero. It is just too humid, muggy, and hot. Mildew and mold would kill us. Nobody would cook in a kitchen without AC in Florida. Not to mention too many mosquitos especially at night.

That doesn't mean I don't enjoy the outdoors in Florida, as I bike ride, go camping, visit the beach, and take my kids to soccer and horse riding lessons. But you always come back to your AC home and ride around in AC, and do office work in AC. I wouldn't have moved from NY/NJ to Florida if AC had not been invented.

My AC broke on '09 when my first kid was 6 months old and it was August and it took a few days to get it repaced. It was so miserable that I lasted just one night and went and got an AC window unit to survive. In '04 and' 17 both times when we lost power for a week because of hurricanes again I lasted one night and packed up and drove to my parents home which was not affected.  But sure others endure when these things happen, but it is really miserable. Am I soft? I don't think so. I just think we live in a civilized world and I expect a certain level of comfort. I just want people to realize that no AC in Florida is not necessarily the same thing as no AC elsewhere.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2018, 12:23:00 PM by galfert »
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Offline ocala

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Re: Are we getting too soft?
« Reply #47 on: July 21, 2018, 12:26:00 PM »
^^^^^^^
I agree.
We lost power for a week from Francis and Jeane and it was miserable!
Bought a generator and it served as a hurricane shield until Irma last year.
I work mostly outside all day and I'm drenched with sweat by the time I get home.
If I didn't have AC I don't think I could live here either.
 

Offline WeatherHost

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Re: Are we getting too soft?
« Reply #48 on: July 21, 2018, 12:48:24 PM »
I have a bunch of wood from fallen trees to split for firewood.  I'll be spending the (too much) money for a power splitter.  I can't imagine doing it by axe the way it was done for centuries.

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Online BeaverMeadow

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Re: Are we getting too soft?
« Reply #49 on: July 21, 2018, 02:26:57 PM »
You mean like this?

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