Author Topic: Are we getting too soft?  (Read 642 times)

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Offline WeatherHost

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Are we getting too soft?
« on: June 30, 2018, 01:25:18 PM »
I remember an awful lot of 90 degree days years ago and I don't remember large areas of 'heat advisories' and 'dangerous heat warnings'.  Yes, it's hot and uncomfortable, but is 95 with high humidity any more hot and uncomfortable today that it was in the 70s?  Seems like back then we expected summers to be hot and miserable and we simply prepared and adjusted for it without having to be told we needed to by means of multiple rounds of sensationalistic warnings.



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Offline Old Tele man

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Re: Are we getting too soft?
« Reply #1 on: June 30, 2018, 01:30:22 PM »
I remember an awful lot of 90 degree days years ago and I don't remember large areas of 'heat advisories' and 'dangerous heat warnings'.  Yes, it's hot and uncomfortable, but is 95 with high humidity any more hot and uncomfortable today that it was in the 70s?  Seems like back then we expected summers to be hot and miserable and we simply prepared and adjusted for it without having to be told we needed to by means of multiple rounds of sensationalistic warnings.
Two reasons:

(1) TV weather announcers who feel EVERY weather event is a CRISIS requiring sensationalism.

(2) the National Weather Center has traded WEATHER data for NANNY-advisory services.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2018, 02:16:41 PM by Old Tele man »
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Offline WeatherHost

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Re: Are we getting too soft?
« Reply #2 on: June 30, 2018, 01:35:04 PM »
I blame the proliferation of home air conditioning.  I've been in houses that are almost too cold.  I can't imagine their electric bills.  I have a single window unit and rarely use it more than a few hours a day.  That's usually in the evenings when I'm trying to wind down to go to sleep and usually more to dry the air than to cool.

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Offline Old Tele man

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Re: Are we getting too soft?
« Reply #3 on: June 30, 2018, 02:18:52 PM »
I blame the proliferation of home air conditioning.  I've been in houses that are almost too cold.  I can't imagine their electric bills.  I have a single window unit and rarely use it more than a few hours a day.  That's usually in the evenings when I'm trying to wind down to go to sleep and usually more to dry the air than to cool.
At our house here in Tucson, Arid-zona, the thermostat settings are 78ºF summer AC and 68ºF winter furnace.
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Offline Aardvark

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Re: Are we getting too soft?
« Reply #4 on: June 30, 2018, 02:23:36 PM »
I think the warning is for those who have to do physical labor outdoors.  That they need to keep hydrated and take shade breaks.

Then we have the parent who is at their wits end , puts the kids out in the backyard and takes a nap,  then decides the dog and the cat need some fun with the kids.   The kids,cats, dogs get overheated.

Old farts such as myself, need to drink water, iced stuff and keep in.

So I don't think we are getting soft but just a caution.     However, the very next time I see a large bear head your way, I am not going to say much.  I want to see how you handle yourself the way they did in the old days.  and Besides,  all I need to do is to run faster than you.
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Offline Old Tele man

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Re: Are we getting too soft?
« Reply #5 on: June 30, 2018, 02:26:13 PM »
HISTORICAL POINT: for almost 200,000 years, homo sapiens et.al. had neither climitilogical warnings nor HVAC systems and yet they (we) survived.


Suddenly the future humans in WALL-E come to mind:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwjpn4rYgvzbAhXKjlQKHS3lCQ4QjRx6BAgBEAU&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3Ds-kdRdzxdZQ&psig=AOvVaw0mZaAILcNMQruzIjDdIH2z&ust=1530469856707912
« Last Edit: June 30, 2018, 02:32:28 PM by Old Tele man »
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Offline DoctorKnow

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Re: Are we getting too soft?
« Reply #6 on: June 30, 2018, 02:46:47 PM »
I blame the proliferation of home air conditioning.  I've been in houses that are almost too cold.  I can't imagine their electric bills.  I have a single window unit and rarely use it more than a few hours a day.  That's usually in the evenings when I'm trying to wind down to go to sleep and usually more to dry the air than to cool.



If the humidity is in the 40s inside your home, you will be reasonably comfortable, and it will feel cool with a thermostat setting of 75 to 77. Ceiling fans will help al lot also. Most A/C installers oversize a homes system and this can lead to over cooling or a clammy feel. I don't like anything warmer than 77. In the winter, I like 70 or 71 in the day, and 65 to 67 at night. Where I live the dew point stays over 70 and even hits 80. The A/C needs to run to get the moisture out or mold will grow.


Offline Bushman

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Re: Are we getting too soft?
« Reply #7 on: June 30, 2018, 02:51:15 PM »
My answer?  Yes.  Nanny-statism.

Offline DoctorKnow

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Re: Are we getting too soft?
« Reply #8 on: June 30, 2018, 03:08:13 PM »
When the heat index reaches 105 F, we have always had heat advisories issued. People do get heat stroke from thinking they are big and tough and can go out and over do it in that kind of heat. When the thermometer reaches 90 on the military base, they stop all outside strenuous exercise. Heat is the #1 weather related killer. I'm not sure we are being too nanny like on this particular issue. Now when we start closing down the whole country and start being blamed for "hot weather" and "climate change" when the property developers are the ones who are taking out all the trees, and airport thermometers are being overtaken by asphalt causing higher readings, I think we should call them out on it.


Offline WeatherHost

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Re: Are we getting too soft?
« Reply #9 on: June 30, 2018, 03:49:15 PM »
Currently; outside 91 °, dewpoint 76 °.  Inside 84 °

No AC running, one ceiling fan.  No mold.

Comfortable for me as long as I don't do anything strenuous.  Beats a high electric bill.

People that work outside everyday know what to do.  They don't need warnings and advisories.

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Offline CW2274

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Re: Are we getting too soft?
« Reply #10 on: June 30, 2018, 04:10:05 PM »
They don't need warnings and advisories.
All it would take is one heat related death without a heads up of some kind and the NWS would be toast, and rightfully so.

Offline WeatherHost

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Re: Are we getting too soft?
« Reply #11 on: June 30, 2018, 04:15:47 PM »
^^  Whole lots of folks all over the country (every state I'm sure) that don't see or hear any of those messages by any means.  Not everybody has the interest or capability to check weather every day.  Folks in remote desert areas for example.

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Offline Old Tele man

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Re: Are we getting too soft?
« Reply #12 on: June 30, 2018, 04:37:54 PM »
^^  Whole lots of folks all over the country (every state I'm sure) that don't see or hear any of those messages by any means.  Not everybody has the interest or capability to check weather every day.  Folks in remote desert areas for example.
Those who live in deserts LEARN their limits...one way or another...by acquired knowledge or Darwin Awardee.
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Offline CW2274

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Re: Are we getting too soft?
« Reply #13 on: June 30, 2018, 04:46:29 PM »
^^  Whole lots of folks all over the country (every state I'm sure) that don't see or hear any of those messages by any means.  Not everybody has the interest or capability to check weather every day.  Folks in remote desert areas for example.
No doubt. That doesn't relieve the NWS of their duty to inform the public of potential wx hazards, that's what our tax dollars are for. I guess the folks in tornado alley should know that they might be swept away....who needs warnings...

Offline Old Tele man

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Re: Are we getting too soft?
« Reply #14 on: June 30, 2018, 04:52:20 PM »
Unfortunately, neither we nor NWS can idiot-proof idiots.
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Offline Bushman

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Re: Are we getting too soft?
« Reply #15 on: June 30, 2018, 06:02:20 PM »
They don't need warnings and advisories.
All it would take is one heat related death without a heads up of some kind and the NWS would be toast, and rightfully so.

Think of the children!!  ;)  I mean. how did we ever survive so long??

Offline ocala

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Re: Are we getting too soft?
« Reply #16 on: July 01, 2018, 06:36:07 AM »
^^  Whole lots of folks all over the country (every state I'm sure) that don't see or hear any of those messages by any means.  Not everybody has the interest or capability to check weather every day.  Folks in remote desert areas for example.
No doubt. That doesn't relieve the NWS of their duty to inform the public of potential wx hazards, that's what our tax dollars are for. I guess the folks in tornado alley should know that they might be swept away....who needs warnings...
To a point, yes the NWS needs to inform people but they don't need to hold their hand. If you are going to be outside today it's your responsibility to check what the weather is going to like. If a tornado comes, too bad. I guess it wasn't your day.
I know that weather preparedness is very regional. Here in Florida it's 90 plus everyday in the summer with heat index's 105 to 110. We're used to it. Just like in Alaska it could be 40 below. Again they are prepared for it. NWS puts out a forecast everyday. Heed it or accept the consequences.

Offline chief-david

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Re: Are we getting too soft?
« Reply #17 on: July 01, 2018, 08:27:42 AM »
I blame the proliferation of home air conditioning.

This is the correct answer. There was a time as a kid that few houses had central air. Ours didn't. Wall unit on the main floor. Upstairs was not. We slept upstairs.
We did not have tractors with AC. Spent more time outside. We did tell my parents that their 30 year old wall AC was not doing it. They installed central air and it made a world of difference.

Now, most houses and apartments have AC. All cars do unless they do not work. More people work  in offices with AC. Less people work outside. Even my small school in Iowa NOW has AC. My school here has a chiller-It works, but not well in all areas. Stupid system.

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Offline WeatherHost

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Re: Are we getting too soft?
« Reply #18 on: July 01, 2018, 08:28:41 AM »
They need to inform.  They don't need to sensationalize with dramatic words and graphics.

A tornado or severe storm is not something most people can be aware of on their own too far in advance.  A 95 degree day in Summer is quite normal in most of the states across the US and is something that can be easily prepared for.

In our area, they've had 'heat advisories' up for 'dangerous heat' for the last several days and the temps have been around 90, give or take.  That is not extreme for this area.

In my view, they need tyo save those stronger messages for days closer to 100.  We all know the 'cry wolf' story, don't we?  The more they overstate things, the less often people will take heed.


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Offline Old Tele man

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Re: Are we getting too soft?
« Reply #19 on: July 01, 2018, 01:48:49 PM »
As in Aesop's fable: Crying 'Wolf' too often results in people ignoring the message!
« Last Edit: July 01, 2018, 01:53:32 PM by Old Tele man »
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Offline DoctorKnow

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Re: Are we getting too soft?
« Reply #20 on: July 01, 2018, 03:41:54 PM »
Instead of spending over 5 grand on "heat pumps", maybe we should all go back to the old school cheap space heaters and window A/C systems many had back into the 1980s and before... The women would not like it I bet... :D I do not care for heat pumps myself... I would rather have a gas log system. Also the window A/C units now really do cool nicely, and plug into a normal household outlet instead of those 3 prong 220 setups.


Offline CW2274

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Re: Are we getting too soft?
« Reply #21 on: July 01, 2018, 03:44:31 PM »
^^  Whole lots of folks all over the country (every state I'm sure) that don't see or hear any of those messages by any means.  Not everybody has the interest or capability to check weather every day.  Folks in remote desert areas for example.
No doubt. That doesn't relieve the NWS of their duty to inform the public of potential wx hazards, that's what our tax dollars are for. I guess the folks in tornado alley should know that they might be swept away....who needs warnings...
To a point, yes the NWS needs to inform people but they don't need to hold their hand.
If I were a betting man, I'd say that you can thank our litigious society for the "hand holding". As a former fed in a safety related field as these folks are, you can bet it's drilled into their heads as it was in my career field that everything be done "by the book" or find yourself in front of federal prosecutor answering questions about why you said "this" instead of "that". Lawsuits go after the biggest "paycheck" first, and that would be the federal government. Right or wrong, it's the way it is.

Offline floodcaster

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Re: Are we getting too soft?
« Reply #22 on: July 01, 2018, 04:51:04 PM »
Just remember that heat advisory/warning products are not based on temperature alone, but on the heat index which takes into account the dewpoint/RH as well as the forecast duration of those factors. I believe this is day 3 for us with dew points in the upper 70s and low 80s, and the HI at my station has topped 118° for the last 2 days. Not sure how many 80° dew point days are "normal" in any given summer. Not saying I entirely disagree with previous posts/opinions but these heat products do allow various agencies/entities to prepare in advance for unusual high temp/RH days in order to assist those most at risk (opening cooling centers...etc).
Bill


Offline ocala

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Re: Are we getting too soft?
« Reply #23 on: July 01, 2018, 05:12:59 PM »
Instead of spending over 5 grand on "heat pumps", maybe we should all go back to the old school cheap space heaters and window A/C systems many had back into the 1980s and before... The women would not like it I bet... :D I do not care for heat pumps myself... I would rather have a gas log system. Also the window A/C units now really do cool nicely, and plug into a normal household outlet instead of those 3 prong 220 setups.
They have something available I believe is called geo-thermal AC/Heating.
They lay pvc pipe at a specific depth in your yard and run water through these pipes using the ground water supply as cooling/heating agent. I'm not sure how far north this would work as the ground water gets colder in northern latitudes. In my area of Florida the ground water is 72 degrees year round so it would work perfectly. 

Offline Jstx

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Re: Are we getting too soft?
« Reply #24 on: July 01, 2018, 05:43:36 PM »
CW2274 gets it most correct: NWS (and anybody today) need to get things right due to the potential for litigation. Plus the general 'intensification' of most media. Now nearing general hysteria in an effort to 'reach' people. Locally some of the worst, most aggravating ads on the teevee are from screeching injury-lawyer-types.

DoctorKnow, can't imagine what you have against heatpumps, they are simply the best, most efficient HVAC's (commonly) available for residential uses (yeah, I know- geothermal, etc...). I jes luvs mine in all seasons.
Without the use of gas or propane for heating, which might be cheaper. Which I've been dang glad to be rid of for decades, used to have those ceramic wall units in the bathrooms in the Valley.
Unless one's gone alt-energy (solar/wind/etc), the cheapest of all sources now.

For heating, a lot of people don't realize that a heatpump is 3-5 times more efficient than oldfashioned straight electric resistance heating (HVAC 'heatstrips').
For cooling, the SEER's have really improved from yesteryear, some run in the SEER 20-30 range now; and the small extra cost is worth it given the energy savings.
And they're good way down below 0deg F. Of course one's location factors in I guess, here we very rarely see sub32deg F temps, only a few hours in the last few years, so YMMV.

With a heatstrip, you input 1kW of electricity, you get about 1kW worth of BTU's out.
With a heatpump, you input 1kW electricity, you receive 3-5kW worth of BTU's out (depending somewhat on the calculus of the ambient outside temps). A very significant efficiency gain over plain resistance heat.

There are even very efficient hotwater tank heatpumps, they cost about one third more than a standard 'best' electric hotwater tank, and payback quickly.
I'm waiting on my tanks to die to get some. I figure it will also help to cool the garages, as it exhausts very cold air into the ambient as it feeds heat to the water inside (which is neat to feel on the HVAC when it's heating the house, the air exiting the condenser outside is really cold stuff, instead of the summertime hot exhaust).


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_pump#Overview

 

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