Author Topic: ClimateGate all over again  (Read 1309 times)

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Offline Jchym

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Re: ClimateGate all over again
« Reply #25 on: February 08, 2017, 03:48:00 PM »
Right... U.S. is totally irrelevant:

CO2/capita:
US: 16.5
China: 7.6

And yes, China obviously has larger population, but you still produce half of what they do and you have been producing such amounts for decades!

Im not saying China should ignore this, they should definitely take action to reduce it, just like you though

Offline Jchym

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Re: ClimateGate all over again
« Reply #26 on: February 08, 2017, 03:48:51 PM »
EU: 6.7 and going down

Offline saratogaWX

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Re: ClimateGate all over again
« Reply #27 on: February 08, 2017, 03:53:33 PM »

Data isn't just data if its being manipulated this makes zero sense.

The data was reprocessed/re-analyzed as new datasets became available from various sources.  This led to the same 'we're warming' conclusion with CO2 concentrations being the majority contributor.

There's some excellent analysis being done and graphics produced by Zach Labe, PhD candidate, UC Irvine.  He is regularly posting updated graphics on Twitter (@ZLabe).  He also publishes the code used for the graphics on GitHub so you can easily see his data sources and analysis method.


« Last Edit: February 08, 2017, 04:14:52 PM by saratogaWX »
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Offline graculus

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Re: ClimateGate all over again
« Reply #28 on: February 08, 2017, 04:15:19 PM »
Right... U.S. is totally irrelevant:

CO2/capita:
US: 16.5
China: 7.6

And yes, China obviously has larger population, but you still produce half of what they do and you have been producing such amounts for decades!

Im not saying China should ignore this, they should definitely take action to reduce it, just like you though

What a convenient but meaningless statistic  :roll:  You can't compare per capita numbers when the economic demographic of the two countries are so very different.

How about per $ of GDP which better represents economic activity? Per the CIA Factbook the per capita GDP in the USA is $57,300 and China $15,400, a factor of 3.72. The per capita CO2 ratio is only 2.17, so each $ of GDP in China generates way more CO2 than in the USA.

The USA has done a lot to reduce emissions, unfortunately IMHO some of that reduction has backfired by moving manufacturing to China where it is generating more emissions that it did here. How many of those solar panels being being installed in the US are manufactured using coal generated electricity in China I wonder?

Offline Jchym

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Re: ClimateGate all over again
« Reply #29 on: February 08, 2017, 04:25:57 PM »
So what is the conclusion,  that the amount US is generating is negligible?

Offline Jstx

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Re: ClimateGate all over again
« Reply #30 on: February 08, 2017, 05:37:22 PM »
Right... U.S. is totally irrelevant:

CO2/capita:
US: 16.5
China: 7.6

And yes, China obviously has larger population, but you still produce half of what they do and you have been producing such amounts for decades!

Im not saying China should ignore this, they should definitely take action to reduce it, just like you though

Jchym and the other combatants,
I just ran across some numbers on what the Chinese are/have done on solar PV electricity production, both the major commercial, and individual, installations. Whatever their driving motivations are...they have ramped up coal power plants, but I'm thinking they're thinking it's just temporary until they have a majority of alt-energy sources.
In a recent year (I'll look it up if I can find it), 2014, 2015?, they doubled, in one year, their total PV capacity. The Indians, Euros, and many others too. Even Texas has gone to the top of wind and solar in the US.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_power_in_China (close enough)
Wikipedia has hundreds of pages of solid info on alt-energy, just use the 'index' linkage at the bottom of most pages..

As far as comments about affordable PV or alternative power, prices have come way down and continue to fall. No one needs to pay an inflated, gouge-level price for the panels, etc., shop around.
I myself cannot 'afford' the somewhat inflated $30-50K price of a 'retailed' home solar installation, no way. So I've done lots of research, designed an expandable system (ground-mounted) that starts small and is flexible. And will grow it every few months until I reach a point when I can be "off-grid" much of the time.
When LI-or-? battery power storage gets cost effective enough, it will be almost all of the time. And save some serious $$, the solar ROI continues to shorten and grow.
With no subsidies or whatever, all out of my pocket.

 I'm buying most of it online, sure; and prices will likely continue to fall. And I do buy some stuff direct, or via Newegg, etc., from China. Don't like it, but no alternative, our 'leaders' have sold us out for decades (hell, I've caught crap for years for having only domestic motor vehicles, while family is mostly Toyota minded).

One 'interesting' observation, the last few months it seems some parcels are getting some Customs/PO lookovers (somewhere).
And the Chinese shippers, in the last month or so, are stuffing some pro-Chinese propaganda leaflet-type literature in the envelopes/boxes   :shock:. Yikes!

Due to political machinations by certain 'pols/people', selling any excess power to the grid isn't even allowed(!, AFAIK) via a net-metering or FIT/PPA  (and they're doing the same with "Net neutrality" internet, rigging the system).
Even my municipal (co-op) power company wants nothing to do with it  #-o.

One other thing. The extremely backward, Luddite views of a certain political group and about 30% of the pop has, and will continue to, put the US at an insurmountable competitive disadvantage in these and many other technologies. We're giving up, we've given up, our former world dominance in many areas, and fall even further behind year after year. Head-in-sand doesn't get it today (never did).

Offline BigOkie

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Re: ClimateGate all over again
« Reply #31 on: February 08, 2017, 06:09:29 PM »
Right... U.S. is totally irrelevant:

CO2/capita:
US: 16.5
China: 7.6

And yes, China obviously has larger population, but you still produce half of what they do and you have been producing such amounts for decades!

Im not saying China should ignore this, they should definitely take action to reduce it, just like you though

Jchym and the other combatants,
I just ran across some numbers on what the Chinese are/have done on solar PV electricity production, both the major commercial, and individual, installations. Whatever their driving motivations are...they have ramped up coal power plants, but I'm thinking they're thinking it's just temporary until they have a majority of alt-energy sources.
In a recent year (I'll look it up if I can find it), 2014, 2015?, they doubled, in one year, their total PV capacity. The Indians, Euros, and many others too. Even Texas has gone to the top of wind and solar in the US.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_power_in_China (close enough)
Wikipedia has hundreds of pages of solid info on alt-energy, just use the 'index' linkage at the bottom of most pages..

As far as comments about affordable PV or alternative power, prices have come way down and continue to fall. No one needs to pay an inflated, gouge-level price for the panels, etc., shop around.
I myself cannot 'afford' the somewhat inflated $30-50K price of a 'retailed' home solar installation, no way. So I've done lots of research, designed an expandable system (ground-mounted) that starts small and is flexible. And will grow it every few months until I reach a point when I can be "off-grid" much of the time.
When LI-or-? battery power storage gets cost effective enough, it will be almost all of the time. And save some serious $$, the solar ROI continues to shorten and grow.
With no subsidies or whatever, all out of my pocket.

 I'm buying most of it online, sure; and prices will likely continue to fall. And I do buy some stuff direct, or via Newegg, etc., from China. Don't like it, but no alternative, our 'leaders' have sold us out for decades (hell, I've caught crap for years for having only domestic motor vehicles, while family is mostly Toyota minded).

One 'interesting' observation, the last few months it seems some parcels are getting some Customs/PO lookovers (somewhere).
And the Chinese shippers, in the last month or so, are stuffing some pro-Chinese propaganda leaflet-type literature in the envelopes/boxes   :shock:. Yikes!

Due to political machinations by certain 'pols/people', selling any excess power to the grid isn't even allowed(!, AFAIK) via a net-metering or FIT/PPA  (and they're doing the same with "Net neutrality" internet, rigging the system).
Even my municipal (co-op) power company wants nothing to do with it  #-o.

One other thing. The extremely backward, Luddite views of a certain political group and about 30% of the pop has, and will continue to, put the US at an insurmountable competitive disadvantage in these and many other technologies. We're giving up, we've given up, our former world dominance in many areas, and fall even further behind year after year. Head-in-sand doesn't get it today (never did).

Our governor in Oklahoma made damn sure solar couldn't be sold back to the grid.  As a matter of fact, they are trying to institute a tax for those users of solar energy by charging a 'fee' for those people to remain on the grid.

Our governor is dumb.  First the earthquakes.  Now this.  Can't wait until she's term-limited out of office next year.


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Offline Jstx

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Re: ClimateGate all over again
« Reply #32 on: February 08, 2017, 07:52:54 PM »


Our governor in Oklahoma made damn sure solar couldn't be sold back to the grid.  As a matter of fact, they are trying to institute a tax for those users of solar energy by charging a 'fee' for those people to remain on the grid.

Our governor is dumb.  First the earthquakes.  Now this.  Can't wait until she's term-limited out of office next year.

Yep, BigOkie, can't find refs, but several states have either done it, or are trying to, penalize and discriminate against alt energy, even punitive taxes.
Incredibly shortsighted and stupid. Although it is a very complex issue, and certain reasonable constraints are probably OK under certain thresholds and limits.

Offline waiukuweather

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Re: ClimateGate all over again
« Reply #33 on: February 08, 2017, 08:05:39 PM »
the thing the deniers in the USA need to know is that other countries, that have government departments to research their own countries data and world data, i.e no funding conflicts of interest etc, show global warming is happening, and is unprecedented in earths climate for 1000's of years

Offline danner

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Re: ClimateGate all over again
« Reply #34 on: February 08, 2017, 08:22:52 PM »
This is what I call slow down:

- During 2016, the average temperature across global land and ocean surfaces was 1.69F (0.94C) above the 20th century average. This was the highest among all 137 years in the 18802016 record.

- During 2016, the globally-averaged land surface temperature was 2.57F (1.43C) above the 20th century average. This was the highest among all years in the 18802016 record, surpassing the previous record of 2015 by 0.18F (0.10C).
Those claims are absurd. How in the name of god did they know what the "average temperature" across the planet was in 1880? You don't even question that for a second and you post it as if it is unquestionable fact. It's what I call an absurdity.

Offline DoctorKnow

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Re: ClimateGate all over again
« Reply #35 on: February 08, 2017, 09:44:04 PM »
This is what I call slow down:

- During 2016, the average temperature across global land and ocean surfaces was 1.69F (0.94C) above the 20th century average. This was the highest among all 137 years in the 18802016 record.

- During 2016, the globally-averaged land surface temperature was 2.57F (1.43C) above the 20th century average. This was the highest among all years in the 18802016 record, surpassing the previous record of 2015 by 0.18F (0.10C).
Those claims are absurd. How in the name of god did they know what the "average temperature" across the planet was in 1880? You don't even question that for a second and you post it as if it is unquestionable fact. It's what I call an absurdity.

Yep. I bet they know what killed the Dinosaurs too. :D

Offline ValentineWeather

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Re: ClimateGate all over again
« Reply #36 on: February 08, 2017, 11:58:56 PM »
In closure and back on subject instead of arguing over meaningless (COOKED, FAKE, BAD) data being manipulated for profit of 100's of billions yearly.

Further reading can be seen here: http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-02-05/climategate-2-noaa-whistleblower-claims-world-leaders-fooled-fake-global-warming-dat
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Offline saratogaWX

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Re: ClimateGate all over again
« Reply #37 on: February 09, 2017, 12:11:09 AM »
This is what I call slow down:

- During 2016, the average temperature across global land and ocean surfaces was 1.69F (0.94C) above the 20th century average. This was the highest among all 137 years in the 18802016 record.

- During 2016, the globally-averaged land surface temperature was 2.57F (1.43C) above the 20th century average. This was the highest among all years in the 18802016 record, surpassing the previous record of 2015 by 0.18F (0.10C).
Those claims are absurd. How in the name of god did they know what the "average temperature" across the planet was in 1880? You don't even question that for a second and you post it as if it is unquestionable fact. It's what I call an absurdity.
Rather than disparaging the idea, how about learning about how it was done.  Many disciplines are used to try and understand paleoclimate before human measurements began in the late 1800s.
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