Author Topic: Davis and their loggers  (Read 3229 times)

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Offline Nil

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Davis and their loggers
« on: January 30, 2013, 09:06:26 PM »
I just have to complain publicly about Davis requiring their green dot logger.

I ordered a datalogger, and forgot to mention that my console needs a green dot logger. To my surprise after plugging it in, and powered up the console the message 'Incompatible logger' showed up. So now I have to wait until I get a replacement before I can freely share MY data with the world from MY $500 device... even after paying another $100 for a logger.

Wishing I looked harder at other makers before deciding on the ease, and convenience of Davis.


Offline dalecoy

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Re: Davis and their loggers
« Reply #1 on: January 30, 2013, 09:37:09 PM »

I ordered a datalogger, ...

Did you order this from Davis?  Or from what supplier?

Offline Nil

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Re: Davis and their loggers
« Reply #2 on: January 30, 2013, 10:10:06 PM »
Hi Dalecoy,

I placed an order through Archer. He caught an error with my VP2 order that I placed a month back, but we both overlooked the need for the new logger style on this console.

Offline Nil

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Re: Davis and their loggers
« Reply #3 on: January 30, 2013, 10:18:29 PM »
The bottom of the box is stamped with '12-13-12 v6.0.2'. When was the v3.0 VP2 firmware rolled out?

Offline Butch in Colorado

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Re: Davis and their loggers
« Reply #4 on: January 30, 2013, 10:37:44 PM »
Nil,

I just recently purchased an WLIP. I checked the date on my box and it reads 1-2-13 V6.0.2. It also has a green dot on the end of the box where the date and version info is posted. I also ordered an Envoy and it also had a green dot on the box with a date of Oct 24 2012 and a firmware version of 3.00. From what I understand Davis has been shipping the green dot versions for close to a year now.

Butch in Colorado
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Offline dalecoy

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Re: Davis and their loggers
« Reply #5 on: January 30, 2013, 10:43:52 PM »
Hi Dalecoy,

I placed an order through Archer. He caught an error with my VP2 order that I placed a month back, but we both overlooked the need for the new logger style on this console.

Well, I'm certainly very critical of what Davis apparently did.  [Unless it develops in the future that there really was a good reason for the technical change]

...and I don't believe that the customer should have to know about this compatibility issue (althouigh it's good that you did).

But on the other hand, Archer certainly does know and has the responsibility to inform the customer and ship the right unit.  And I bet this was a very isolated "overlook".  After all, it's going to cost Archer some money to straighten out the deal.

Offline johnd

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Re: Davis and their loggers
« Reply #6 on: January 31, 2013, 03:08:00 AM »
I just have to complain publicly about Davis requiring their green dot logger.

I ordered a datalogger, and forgot to mention that my console needs a green dot logger. To my surprise after plugging it in, and powered up the console the message 'Incompatible logger' showed up. So now I have to wait until I get a replacement before I can freely share MY data with the world from MY $500 device... even after paying another $100 for a logger.

Wishing I looked harder at other makers before deciding on the ease, and convenience of Davis.

Think you may have a problem with Archer not Davis. All loggers made since approximately August 2011 should be green dot loggers. So Davis have allowed some 18 months or so to phase in the new loggers and for dealers to rotate their stock to ensure that only green dot units were left for sale during 2012. We're now in 2013 of course! If you received a non-green dot logger as part of a very recent purchase then something went seriously wrong in the supply chain.
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Offline stevebrtx

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Re: Davis and their loggers
« Reply #7 on: January 31, 2013, 09:13:32 AM »
It's unfortunate that Davis has chosen to inflict pain on themselves in what appears to be monetarily related. There is usually a $$ point where people will pay for the product/service without too much grumbling, but exceed that point and you invite pushback. Here in MX our electricity is the CFE (Can't Furnish Electricity) and a government operation - need I say more? They're in a self created death spiral, every time they raise the price more people cheat so they raise the price and etc. and at $.42 per KWH and rising, you can imagine the levels of "creativity" it creates.

Offline Sigdigit

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Re: Davis and their loggers
« Reply #8 on: January 31, 2013, 11:52:15 AM »
Still can't believe the 'new' console firmware is not backwards compatible.  That would be like a computer that does not work with any software/firmware made before the computer was made.  Smart move Davis.

Offline johnd

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Re: Davis and their loggers
« Reply #9 on: January 31, 2013, 12:20:11 PM »
Still can't believe the 'new' console firmware is not backwards compatible.

I think this is a misrepresentation of what's been said by Davis. AFAIK it's not the firmware that's not backwards compatible but the new console hardware (which coincidentally also has the new firmware installed). Same scenario as why I can't load iOS6 on my iPad1, just to name one example from many.

What's confusing the issue is that Davis have not (yet?) made v3.00 F/W available for download into pre-green dot consoles. The only relevant reports we have are one or two examples where people have had consoles refurbed by Davis and they've come back with 3.00 F/W. But it's not clear whether these refurbed units may also have had their main board replaced (which will be true in many instances - it's not usually cost-effective to do board-level repairs), in which case they are effectively now green dot consoles.

The F/W revision is distinct from the green-dot hardware revision.
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Offline dalecoy

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Re: Davis and their loggers
« Reply #10 on: January 31, 2013, 03:04:50 PM »
Clearly, the new (green dot) loggers are backwards compatible with old consoles.  So, that's not a problem.

. AFAIK it's not the firmware that's not backwards compatible but the new console hardware (which coincidentally also has the new firmware installed).
.....
The F/W revision is distinct from the green-dot hardware revision.

So, let's concentrate on console hardware.

Do you have information that the new (green dot) console hardware - Vue and VP2 - is not actually "backwards compatible" (whatever that means in this context)?  That incompatibility would be - there is no way to write firmware that would run on the new consoles, that would accept the old loggers?

That's a somewhat abstract technical point, of course.  But in this case, I believe that the full truth is important if folks are trying to cuss/discuss Davis' motivation and conduct.

And perhaps Davis has something else in mind that will provide added features but can only be done on the new consoles.  That might well justify the change(s).

The apparent fact is that Davis has chosen to not publish any information about this issue at all - not even a note on their website that cautions customers that green-dot consoles require green-dot loggers.  I can't personally think why they have not done so.

Offline BCJKiwi

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Re: Davis and their loggers
« Reply #11 on: January 31, 2013, 03:07:15 PM »
Johnd,
As far as I can tell, you are well 'plugged in' to the Davis supply chain. I presume you are aware that over on the Cumulus Forum a few users with new gear (hardware and firmware) have been having trouble which has been resolved by a Davis supplied firmware 3.12. However it seems this has only been sent to a couple of users who have specifically requested it to resolve their particular problem which was with the communication to the station just stopping resulting in a random error messages "Data input appears to have stopped" message. This was reported by more than one Cumulus user and on VP2 and Envoy.

I'm wondering if you have any comment on this, and if there may be a change to the behaviour of the 'clone logger' situation with this firmware (we live in hope :lol:)

Offline johnd

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Re: Davis and their loggers
« Reply #12 on: January 31, 2013, 04:47:50 PM »
Do you have information that the new (green dot) console hardware - Vue and VP2 - is not actually "backwards compatible" (whatever that means in this context)?
That's my understanding, at least in the sense that you cannot downgrade green-dot consoles with prior version F/W. But you'd have to be very close to the engineers at Davis (which I'm not - there are some cut-outs to Engineering) to know for sure.

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That incompatibility would be - there is no way to write firmware that would run on the new consoles, that would accept the old loggers?
Really don't know on that one. To say something's 100% incompatible is just to provide a challenge to certain minds and I wouldn't want to say that it's totally inconceivable that some bright spark could achieve a workaround.

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The apparent fact is that Davis has chosen to not publish any information about this issue at all - not even a note on their website that cautions customers that green-dot consoles require green-dot loggers.  I can't personally think why they have not done so.

My opinion FWIW: I think that sometimes there's misapprehension that because Davis has such a large share of the affordable weather station market, it's somehow a megacorporation with large resources - this just isn't the case AFAICS. This sector of the AWS market is not huge, especially given relatively low volumes (by mass-production standards), and only supports a relatively small company. So there just aren't too many people in Development to do things. I suspect that Davis's main preoccupation right now is getting Connect out of the door (along with any other smaller-scale updates that might conceivably be in the pipeline)  and that's where 90% of the Development focus is.

Of course there should have been more of a public announcement about the green dot consoles, but I really do think this is more cock-up than conspiracy (don't know how that translates into American but maybe you'll get the gist). Someone probably was expected to update a web page but for whatever reason it hasn't happened or maybe there'll be something in the next enewsletter (which must be due I would have thought). So my view FWIW is that it's a human or organisational or timing glitch and not deliberate policy.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2013, 04:52:20 PM by johnd »
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Offline johnd

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Re: Davis and their loggers
« Reply #13 on: January 31, 2013, 04:59:40 PM »
@BCJKiwi: I do stop by the Cumulus forum occasionally, but no time to do so on a regular basis and no I hadn't picked up on that particular thread. The issue has not surfaced more generally AFAIK - certainly there's been nothing circulated in the main dealer forum. I'd be surprised if there was any relevance to non-green-dot loggers - my guess would be just a tweak to some comms timing.
Prodata Weather Systems
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Littleport, Ely, Cambs UK

Offline Sigdigit

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Re: Davis and their loggers
« Reply #14 on: January 31, 2013, 05:31:10 PM »
One thing's for sure:  If I had a company with somewhat of a niche market, you could be damn sure I would have somebody scanning these forums and replying to posts like this.  I know the Accurite guy is all over that here.

Offline dalecoy

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Re: Davis and their loggers
« Reply #15 on: January 31, 2013, 07:18:14 PM »
Please keep in mind that I'm not saying there's a conspiracy - I'm saying that we don't know enough to judge Davis' reasons. 

Do you have information that the new (green dot) console hardware - Vue and VP2 - is not actually "backwards compatible" (whatever that means in this context)?
That's my understanding, at least in the sense that you cannot downgrade green-dot consoles with prior version F/W. But you'd have to be very close to the engineers at Davis (which I'm not - there are some cut-outs to Engineering) to know for sure.

We're talking hardware.  How do you know that you cannot downgrade green-dot consoles with prior version F/W?  Yes, if you try to apply the 1.x or 2.x firmware "update" it will not "update" because the console already has 3.x - that is a rather standard feature of update programs.  It does not mean (either way) that 1.9 firmware would not run on a new console, if you could somehow load it.

Quote
I really do think this is more cock-up than conspiracy (don't know how that translates into American but maybe you'll get the gist). Someone probably was expected to update a web page but for whatever reason it hasn't happened or maybe there'll be something in the next enewsletter (which must be due I would have thought). So my view FWIW is that it's a human or organisational or timing glitch and not deliberate policy.

I agree - or perhaps, after making the hardware changes and writing the associated firmware, they can't decide on a good way to explain it.

Again, I'm not yelling conspiracy.  If it turns out (next year) that the new console hardware (or for that matter the new logger hardware) is necessary to introduce some new, nifty, valuable feature, then we will be able to see why Davis did this.

If nothing new ever happens, then we may conclude that it was an "excuse" to try to defeat 3rd-party loggers.

Or perhaps some other reason.  We just can't draw logical conclusions now.  But we can observe the current "mess".

Offline johnd

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Re: Davis and their loggers
« Reply #16 on: February 01, 2013, 03:43:13 AM »
How do you know that you cannot downgrade green-dot consoles with prior version F/W?

I asked the specific question of Davis when this change started to be rolled out into production (back in November IIRC) and that was the answer, which I take at face value. As per my previous post, I guess it's not inconceivable that someone might identify a workaround but that's the official response.

As an aside. we're really not finding that this issue of green dot consoles figures very much at all in dealing with customers day to day. The topic is obviously generating more heat in forum threads like this one, but in the Davis market as a whole, the issue is raised only occasionally. I think the reason is that members here are more serious hobbyists, by and large, who - at a very rough guess - comprise perhaps around 10% of the Davis customer base. And even amongst that 10%, only a few see green dot as a real live issue.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2013, 03:58:46 AM by johnd »
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Offline BCJKiwi

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Re: Davis and their loggers
« Reply #17 on: February 01, 2013, 08:30:28 PM »
@johnd
I think that is a fair assessment - FOR NOW.
Most current sales will presumably be new installations which will get consistent product, or, new loggers which will work with old consoles where existing users without a logger want to add a logger to their setup.

The problems will arise more often as time passes as;
1. users replacing or adding consoles will get the new and expect to be able to run their existing logger which will, typically, be an older logger.
2. users send their gear in for refurb and get a new board/FW which does not work with their old logger. As previously recommended, if sending your gear in for refurb, send it all - including the logger!

I figure this will be the pattern for many years to come. Of course new sales will continue so who knows what the % will be but there will continue to be users with issues and they are most likely to be those that DO NOT frequent this (or similar) Forum(s).

Offline SlowModem

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Re: Davis and their loggers
« Reply #18 on: February 01, 2013, 08:37:20 PM »
We may never know for sure, but it would be interesting to find out what's driving this change and what their purpose is.   :-k

(I guess we need one of our guys to go to work for Davis so that we can get the straight scoop on all of this).   8-)
Greg Whitehead
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Offline johnd

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Re: Davis and their loggers
« Reply #19 on: February 02, 2013, 07:26:00 AM »
We may never know for sure, but it would be interesting to find out what's driving this change and what their purpose is.

Since you ask, here's what Davis say. This is from what is a dealer-only communication and which hopefully you'll understand I'm usually reluctant to quote verbatim. But this seems straightforward enough a statement for me to break a rule. Here's the quote, which says (inter alia):

Quote
There seems to be some concern and confusion regarding Davis recent firmware update and Davis data loggers.  Some changes in electronic components necessitated our updating the weather console firmware. If your customers are using a new console or a recently repaired console** with an older data logger, there may be an incompatibility. This is a rare occurrence.

It is not our intention to make your customers buy new data loggers. Most customers dont need one. 

** I suspect that this will refer to a console where the main circuit board has had to be replaced and so is effectively the new console hardware revision.
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