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Weather Station Hardware => Blitzortung => Topic started by: Cutty Sark Sailor on May 23, 2014, 09:37:15 AM

Title: Adding E Field Probe - Startup and Operation - not for construction
Post by: Cutty Sark Sailor on May 23, 2014, 09:37:15 AM
Adding the E Field Probe... a first impression primer...
We'll evolve / correct this as we go with info, tips, etc....hopefully.
It's different! ... and this is based on initial 'experimentation'...   
Updated: 5/25/14 :spectrum comparison:  :operation:  :enter your antenna type!:
Updated: 5/27/14 :filters description ア :roll: : signals example image : system gain and filter specifications :
Updated: 6/1/14 :qualification sentence modified under "suggested initial settings" regarding filters
Updated: 6/10/14 :qualification sentence added under "operation with automatic and filters" stating return to full 'manual' mode for operation
Updated: 6/17/14 :Simplified threshold set up --- thanks Don Froula, sta 681.

Two Important Notes!
1. Please use controller Amplifier 2 for E fields... that insures the signals displayed are shown in consistent colors. We'll then expect H field signals (Amplifier 1) to be Red and Green (with Channel C yellow normally not shown) and E field signals to be Magenta, Blue(Teal) and Orange. Avoids confusion if we're trying to help you.

2. Make sure you are not running a second Power Supply into your new Amp, other than for initial build test. Only the Controller supply is required, and the 2nd power supply will cause all kinds of issues... especially since it will likely affect the HP filter in addition to working against your primary controller supply.


Looking at signals:
Here's what we've become used to with H field only: 2 Channels with directivity at right angles. Amplifier 1
(http://www.ourspecialnet.com/Weather/TwinHollies/i-TBrQJ6N/0/L/1AB-L.jpg) (http://www.ourspecialnet.com/Weather/TwinHollies/i-TBrQJ6N/A)

When we first add the E field probe we'll see this: 5 Channels directivity - any direction! Amplifiers 1 and 2
(http://www.ourspecialnet.com/Weather/TwinHollies/i-sWsMzp9/0/L/1AB2ABC-L.jpg) (http://www.ourspecialnet.com/Weather/TwinHollies/i-sWsMzp9/A)

Here's the E Field alone: 3 Channels directivity unknown. Amplifier 2
(http://www.ourspecialnet.com/Weather/TwinHollies/i-thTK54T/0/L/2ABC-L.jpg) (http://www.ourspecialnet.com/Weather/TwinHollies/i-thTK54T/A)
One of the first things we notice is it may be difficult to locate an E field noise source, since we are missing one clue available with the H field directional loops... we can't get pointed in a line to begin source location and identification. Those of us who've been around awhile understand this, if you're new you may not as yet.

As when we first began with H field only, we need to explore our E field environment, so we need some control over the amps and channels as we optimize and refine over time.

Suggested initial settings:
(http://www.ourspecialnet.com/Weather/TwinHollies/i-JWhCdxG/0/L/Inital%20Mode%20and%20Sampling-L.jpg) (http://www.ourspecialnet.com/Weather/TwinHollies/i-JWhCdxG/A)
Run in manual mode. You want control with fixed parameters for awhile.
Turn off (uncheck) "Auto Adapt to Noise" and "Auto Amplitude Filter". If you leave them on the following initial setup may cause confusion. Remember that E field will not be as vulnerable to Magnetic interference, and will exist in its own VLF environment.

A few folks have attempted setup disabling Amp 1 by unplugging the amplifier. I do not suggest this for several reasons not described here. Operate the system under full load, and after making the initial settings, perhaps reduce the gains on Amp 1 to allow Amp 2 to dominate the signal display. You could turn those 2 "autos" back on as you see fit at any time, and see how they perform with the new E field operating alongside H field.

Enablng "Alternate Channel Mapping" allows independent adjustments of both amps' thresholds, which can be bit tricky for the "C" Channels, unless we share Don F's elegant "Keep it Simple" solution:
(http://www.ourspecialnet.com/Weather/Test-vids/i-fGwtTF7/0/L/threshold-L.jpg) (http://www.ourspecialnet.com/Weather/Test-vids/i-fGwtTF7/A)
1. Check (turn on) "Force all channels on" and "apply"
2 Set Amp 1, Channel C to the minimum value, 1mV.
3. Apply, and then "Save Settings".
4. Un-check (turn off) "Force all channels on".
5. Apply, then "Save Settings"
Now, the Amp 2, Channel C threshold will be assured of being the value you set in the Amp 2 settings.

Why do this? If you do not you are likely to assume that you've actually changed Amp 2 Channel C's threshold, because both the settings page, and the signals page information will show you the numbers you've entered. And you'll not notice that the actual DISPLAY trace shows the TRUE operating threshold level for Amp 2 Channel C! This may possibly be addressed in a future firmware update.
(Ref: http://www.wxforum.net/index.php?topic=22710.msg220855#msg220855 Don F. Includes larger explanatory images)



Don't read the following if you're already too confused to proceed...  :twisted:
Other wise go back and start over, or just follow Don's short cut above, and move on.  ;)

Now this gets a bit mind-bending:
We need alternate channel mapping, to be able to manipulate thresholds, and therefore "relative" gains, when we add the E field to an H field setup. When we do this:

Threshold settings for Amp 1 for channels A and B will be identical, and shared, that is, thresholds for A and B will become the higher setting originally set for one of the channels. Ditto for A and B of Amp 2.  However, BOTH amps' Channel Cs share the same ADC, and therefore one will assume as it's lowest possible threshold, the highest threshold set in either amp. You cannot set a threshold for 2C, in other words, that is lower than the saved threshold already established for 1C. And vice versa.   Since C isn't used on H field, and the threshold setting isn't visible to you, you must check 'Force all Channels On' to see it. Now you can use Don's method, and complete your E field set up, running E field on Amp 2 as we strongly suggest
.




Moving on:
Note here: E field First Stage amp is shared by all three channels... one adjustment (C) for all. 2nd Stage is individual channel adjustable. The third and final stage gain is fixed at 10 for Channel C, and at 16 for A and B. (In the H Field amp, the final stage is fixed at 40.
(http://www.ourspecialnet.com/Weather/TwinHollies/i-KKWpghB/0/L/Initial%20Amp%20Settings-L.jpg) (http://www.ourspecialnet.com/Weather/TwinHollies/i-KKWpghB/A)
One of the issues here initially may be interference mode. The 5x5 gain settings for this location with a 15" 12ga wire probe is quite high enough, so far. It'll pick up signals with higher gains that can't even be located. With any activity within a few hundred miles higher gains are useless. E field is very sensitive to the charges in the clouds, much more so than the H fields.
Courtesy of Richo Anderson and Blitzortung.Org:
E-Field typical Gain Potential  (reason for tight filtering)
(http://www.ourspecialnet.com/Weather/TwinHollies/i-sXsnJfV/0/M/efield%20gains%202%20-M.png) (http://www.ourspecialnet.com/Weather/TwinHollies/i-sXsnJfV/A)
I can see one issue easily happening... someone will use a large antenna, and wonder why they have so much 'interference' mode operation. Trust me, that 15" probe is almost too much. With storms within 200 miles, I had its gains down to 2-1... too many signals, too fast... remember, that's really what threshold is responding to.

 Find your recent signal spectrums
lightningmaps.org  /  make sure you log in with your BO username and password / Your Region (America, Europe, Oceania, etc) / Archives / List
   ;) allow patience while server and internet catch up with you...
(http://www.ourspecialnet.com/Weather/TwinHollies/i-j7qGdxq/0/L/signals%20with%20e-L.jpg) (http://www.ourspecialnet.com/Weather/TwinHollies/i-j7qGdxq/A)
Most noticeable are the sharp peaks and frequency bands between the 3 channels of the E field system. Theoretically, for example, I believe you can minimize an interference from a source, say at a constant 24kHz, by adjusting the gain and threshold for a particular channel. The filtering built into the E field system is extremely tight and critical. Note that such adjustments are only possible on H field on one channel, in one plane of directivity. Being Omni, and three channels may offer us an opportunity to minimize E field interference by simply determining it's frequency without affecting overall detection range and signal location. Time and experimentation will tell. Cool, huh!
_________________________________

Filters:
     The coax and it's shielding is effectively part of a
High Pass filter > 5 KHz (preamp, coax, amp combined)
     First stage HP filter is in Pre-Amp, third stage in amp.
     50,100,150,200,250 Hz is effectively attenuated
     Similar with 60Hz and harmonics
18 KHz
44 KHz
50 KHz
ア effective channel selectivity
A =    5KHz ア  覧  23KHz ア
B =  18KHz ア  覧  44KHz ア
C =    5KHz ア  覧  50KHz ア
_________________________________
Courtesy of Richo Anderson and Blitzortung.Org:
E-field Filter operation (measured at -3db)
(http://www.ourspecialnet.com/Weather/TwinHollies/i-64bkMgX/0/M/Filtering%20measured%20at%20minus%203db2-M.png) (http://www.ourspecialnet.com/Weather/TwinHollies/i-64bkMgX/A)



The below illustrates differences in 4 stroke signals, from 2 stations approx. 100mi separation N/S.
First in each set, station operates with both E and H fields, alternate channel mapping. Second station operating H field only.

(http://www.ourspecialnet.com/Weather/TwinHollies/i-qGcVwSj/0/X2/stroke%20comparison2-X2.jpg)

_________________________________


These two videos will illustrate the difference in filtering, with server signals spectrum, between the two
systems. Both amps operating in manual, no filtering, with somewhat reduced gain:

E field Only  Click the image to open player.
(http://www.ourspecialnet.com/Weather/TwinHollies/i-G59d3T8/0/L/e%20field%20only%20Frankfort%20Weather%20Blitzortung%20Signals%20-%5B2%5D-L.jpg) (http://www.ourspecialnet.com/Weather/TwinHollies/i-G59d3T8/A)

H field only Click the image to open player.
(http://www.ourspecialnet.com/Weather/TwinHollies/i-Z3Sftvw/0/L/h%20field%20only%20Frankfort%20Weather%20Blitzortung%20Signals%20-%5B3%5D-L.jpg) (http://www.ourspecialnet.com/Weather/TwinHollies/i-Z3Sftvw/A)

Didn't Richo build some great filters???

_________________________________

Update: Here's one on me  ](*,)  One of the guys in Europe, running his E field through input A,... 3 Beautiful signals, except they're Red, Green, and Yellow. Yellow's got a bunch of noise on it, and the whole left side of trace is sinusoidal.  He wants to know what's wrong. Me? Guess what? Looking at Red, Green and Yellow, I'm thinking 'H field' interference, naturally.  :oops:  So comes Tobi... "That's just noise on the Yellow..."....

As I stated earlier: "This Is Different". The above might have been a problem for H field... but was near 'normal' for E field.  :roll:

... and so it begins...
_______________________

---and so it continues:


NOTE: 7/13/2014 --- You CANNOT DISABLE e field signals by checking "don't send" on the settings page. The server wants to see all three channels. Best you can do is set gains to 1x1, thresholds to "0". You can adjust gains.


Operation: May 25, 2014 - linked video may help visualize some of the capababilities and potential of dual operation.
After some experimenting, and familiarization, it appears that running both H field and E field together just screams for an efficient, effective, Automatic Mode. (Which is still BETA, and likely only to enter final efficiency with the next generation of BO Systems)
So, upgrading now to latest firmware, (at the time, 7.05b) in this case, we set and applied
Enable Channel Mapping: On
Gains
1 A and B:  10 * 10
2 A, B, C:   10 * 5
Thresholds
1A, B: 110 mv
2A, B:   90 mv
1C, 2C: 90 mv
Auto Adapt to Noise :  On
Auto Amplitude Filter: On
Remote Control Mode: Automatic.
Saved settings.
And recorded the following video - It will present best if set to full screen when the player opens:
Click the image to open player.
Station 689, Frankfort KY, USA, with light continental activity 1136UTC to 1146UTC 5/25/2014 More notes are below:
NOTE: June 10, 2014
After about 2 weeks operating with filters and "automatic" as outlined above, I did not change my mind on firmware/software operation with some type of "automatic mode". However, I did decide that the present  server and controller firmware, at least for my station and location, actually caused a decrease in overall performance, with the present density of the North American network. So I turned off both the filters, and returned to manual mode with alternate channel mapping. (css)

(http://www.ourspecialnet.com/Weather/TwinHollies/i-wSPKzBL/0/L/RVCap%5B4%5D-L.jpg) (http://www.ourspecialnet.com/Weather/TwinHollies/i-wSPKzBL/A)
Unfortunately, there is no split-second time relationship between the signals... Lower right is real-time local controller signal.
Upper left is a 2.5sec interval BO server signal, as is the spectrum on upper right.
Lower left is real-time strokes and station visualization with approximately 5 second delay.
The video should be long enough to get a good idea of how the server and controller will work together to
adjust gains and thresholds as required, with channel mapping and full automatic, even with the present
server algorithms, and controller firmware. Watching the lower right over time and signals note how the
gains and thresholds are varied. Upper left will show you which channel the server is currently selecting
for use 101 indicates used, with the vertical red bar on the TOGA/TOA location. 100 is received, not used.
On the Controller signals page, for those who don't know:
 L = Signal is below the threshold
 P = Signal is below threshold * adjustable_percentage
 S = Spike detected
 M = Amplitude too high (currently not enabled)
 A = Automatic filter by amplitude
 Filters are always on. If a channel is marked red, then it might not be used for sending. Only if the time above the graph is red, the whole signal won't be sent. Some filter flags like "L" or "A" must be present on all channels for that a signal to be NOT sent ("AND" condition). Other's, like "S" need only one filtered channel, and the whole signal won't be sent.

 ________________________________

If you haven't already, you should set your antenna types (Thanks, Don F) Settings on your member information page at login on Blitzortung.org:
(http://www.ourspecialnet.com/Weather/TwinHollies/i-t8XHrsG/0/L/antennan%20sets-L.jpg) (http://www.ourspecialnet.com/Weather/TwinHollies/i-t8XHrsG/A)
If E Field is on Amp 2, you'll skip 'input 2' since the C channel on H field has no antenna... yeah, the numbering begins at "0" There's popup help for the settings. Settings are metric, btw.  It is very important that they be set correctly.

Another setting to make on that page is your City, State, Location...   and if you have a website, that's very cool to enter...


Title: Re: Adding E Field Probe - Startup?
Post by: Cutty Sark Sailor on May 23, 2014, 01:54:50 PM
One thing I seem to notice, much earlier stroke detections, often early in the 'precharge' time frame, for E signals, and much 'lower' on the initial ground wave impulse when using the H field signal at the server. This puts detection earlier in the "Time of Group Arrival" which should lead to even better location of strokes. This may still be 'illusionary' on my part, but appears to be consistent,...
Title: Re: Adding E Field Probe - Startup and Operation - not for construction
Post by: Cutty Sark Sailor on May 24, 2014, 10:17:20 AM
5/24/14  10:00 am, EDT.... Switched to E field only with H field off. Settings are 10*5 and thresholds at 100mv... Threshold of 90 goes interference, with current cell locations...
We'll see how good this sucker is by itself...
Title: Re: Adding E Field Probe - Startup and Operation - not for construction
Post by: W3DRM on May 24, 2014, 11:22:42 AM
Mike, should this thread be made a "sticky"?

BTW, a great start and resource for all of us to learn from.  =D>
Title: Re: Adding E Field Probe - Startup and Operation - not for construction
Post by: Cutty Sark Sailor on May 24, 2014, 11:37:54 AM
Mike, should this thread be made a "sticky"?

BTW, a great start and resource for all of us to learn from.  =D>
Dunno, up to admins... and thanks.
One quick point...
While working on the first draft, I noticed an intermittent issue with E field channel A... came and went, distorted, clipped signals.  Being lazy, I took the soldering iron and just touched the tip to all the pins on ICs 7 and 8.  Voila!  How easy can it get????

EDIT: If you look closely at the 2nd signal image, above, all 5 channels... about 132usec see the A Channel (purple) flattened slightly? That's a minor distortion that showed up. Otherwise much more obvious.  :twisted:
Title: Re: Adding E Field Probe - Startup and Operation - not for construction
Post by: dfroula on May 24, 2014, 12:54:07 PM
Thanks for this! Too cool to resist any longer! I just sent my inquiry off to Egon for my kit, as I finally have the time to build and install the setup.

Don
WD9DMP
Title: Re: Adding E Field Probe - Startup and Operation - not for construction
Post by: Cutty Sark Sailor on May 24, 2014, 02:05:42 PM
Thanks for this! Too cool to resist any longer! I just sent my inquiry off to Egon for my kit, as I finally have the time to build and install the setup.

Don
WD9DMP
Finally found a big enough carrot, huh?
Title: Re: Adding E Field Probe - Startup and Operation - not for construction
Post by: Cutty Sark Sailor on May 24, 2014, 02:15:10 PM
An 'addenda' added to 1st post above...  :oops:
Mike
Title: Re: Adding E Field Probe - Startup and Operation - not for construction
Post by: dfroula on May 24, 2014, 03:40:13 PM
ROTFLMAO!..... :grin:

Yep....big carrot! Perhaps it will partially compensate for my non-functional AS3935!

[/quote]Finally found a big enough carrot, huh?
[/quote]
Title: Re: Adding E Field Probe - Startup and Operation - not for construction
Post by: dfroula on May 24, 2014, 03:53:18 PM
Mind-bending indeed! Still trying to wrap my head around this....

So?...

- Once I connect the E-field amp to controller input 2, I can no longer set the channel threshold values for Amp 1 independently? Seems odd....

- If the above is true, how does the auto-noise adjust on the H-field amp (1) deal with the situation?

- Channel C thresholds from Amp 1 and Amp 2 are tied together (same ADC)? The firmware allows channel C threshold setting on either Amp 1 or Amp 2    settings? Or, the Channel C setting on Amp 2 must be >= than the channel C threshold setting on Amp 1, but still independently adjustable? Sounds like some firmware work is needed...

- Why 3 channels for the E-field amp? Different points in the filter chain?

Thanks!

Don
WD9DMP


Now this gets a bit mind-bending, Threshold settings for Amp 1 for channels A and B will be identical, and shared, it will become the highest setting originally set for whichever. Ditto for A and B of Amp 2. Channel C shares the same ADC on both amps, and therefore will assume as its low threshold, the highest threshold of 1 ch C, and vice versa. Since C isn't used on H field, you can check 'Force all Channels On' and adjust amp 2 Ch C and/or Amp 1 Ch C thresholds appropriately.  Gains, however are independently adjusted.
So if you cannot lower threshold on E field (Amp 2) channel C, force all channels on, lower amp 1 Ch C, then uncheck force all channels on, and readjust the original A's and B's on both amps to suit.... Channel C on amp 2 should remain at the setting selected. It can be set higher, if memory serves, but not lower... sheesh. And I probably could have explained it better... tough.  :twisted:
Title: Re: Adding E Field Probe - Startup and Operation - not for construction
Post by: Cutty Sark Sailor on May 24, 2014, 04:55:46 PM
Mind-bending indeed! Still trying to wrap my head around this....

So?...

- Once I connect the E-field amp to controller input 2, I can no longer set the channel threshold values for Amp 1 independently? Seems odd....

- If the above is true, how does the auto-noise adjust on the H-field amp (1) deal with the situation?

- Channel C thresholds from Amp 1 and Amp 2 are tied together (same ADC)? The firmware allows channel C threshold setting on either Amp 1 or Amp 2    settings? Or, the Channel C setting on Amp 2 must be >= than the channel C threshold setting on Amp 1, but still independently adjustable? Sounds like some firmware work is needed...

- Why 3 channels for the E-field amp? Different points in the filter chain?

Thanks!


Don
WD9DMP


Now this gets a bit mind-bending, Threshold settings for Amp 1 for channels A and B will be identical, and shared, it will become the highest setting originally set for whichever. Ditto for A and B of Amp 2. Channel C shares the same ADC on both amps, and therefore will assume as its low threshold, the highest threshold of 1 ch C, and vice versa. Since C isn't used on H field, you can check 'Force all Channels On' and adjust amp 2 Ch C and/or Amp 1 Ch C thresholds appropriately.  Gains, however are independently adjusted.
So if you cannot lower threshold on E field (Amp 2) channel C, force all channels on, lower amp 1 Ch C, then uncheck force all channels on, and readjust the original A's and B's on both amps to suit.... Channel C on amp 2 should remain at the setting selected. It can be set higher, if memory serves, but not lower... sheesh. And I probably could have explained it better... tough.  :twisted:
Phui.  ](*,) Please don't get me thinking about this again... I like to never figured it this far either.... ](*,)
GAINS for each channel are adjustable, EXCEPT 1st stage A and B of E FIELD, which follow the channel C setting since 1st stage common to all three. 2'nd stages are independent for the three channels, and the final is fixed at 16 instead of 40 as in H field.

Thresholds are the confusion. It helps me to think more in terms of "signals per second" for example rather than any amplitude of signal. (True, more amplitude, more signals, but whatever) The system to the best of my knowledge isn't using any 'amplitude' too strong, as yet, although available.)
So think that the "lower" the thresholds, the more signals per second....

Now with channel mapping, unless I'm losing it somewhere along the way here... Channels A and B of amplifier 1 will share the same ADC, and threshold will be highest of the two.  Channels A and B of amplifier 2 will now share the same ADC, with same operation. Channel C of BOTH 1 and 2 share the same ADC. Again, with highest threshold ruling both C channels.

Without 'Channel Mapping"  Amp 1 channel A and Amp 2 Channel A share the same ADC.   ditto for the B channels. Channel C on both always share the same ADC.

So by channel mapping, changing thresholds affects only E field or H field, rather than specific channels or something like this.l.. I'm getting tired of thinking about it.... ](*,) No matter how I type or think it it still sounds nuts, even as you say...

Somehow I've come to the conclusion that, except for Channel C threshold same on both amps, this sets the two amps independent of each other, rather than mixing channels and thresholds....  Dang it Don!  You had to ask!

As I said above, I have no idea how the auto noise, etc will respond... which is why I suggested going back to basically what we were dealing with when you and I fired up the first couple of Reds... turn off those filters, run pure manual. And we'll all find out.
 
One member asked why I had not updated my firmware, and this 'start up' is the reason,... I sorta know what to expect from B3, so haven't updated to 4 or 5 to keep any other variables off this.,. for now.

Yes, different bandpasses.  Virtually everything above 160kHz is eliminated, and the dropoff at 50kHz is incredibly sharp.
I don't know what the final bp wound up, several were discussed, but I think it's similar to this:
A channel = 8 kHz-23.5 kHz
B channel = 18 kHz-44?kHz
C channel=  8 kHz-30?kHz
Richo was trying so many variations, and types of filters,  but I don't know what the final was...  these are slightly tame feral guesses.

Yes, I can see possible firmware changes, no doubt. But I think a whole lot needs to be done, or simply enabled, on the server. I suspect some
has already been planted in the firmware, and hardware, from what I see of the signal processing, I could be wrong.

I suspect when the boys all get back from Munich tomorrow, and Tobi gets the Lightningmaps.org database back online, and they answer a few hundred Emails apiece, they'll be passing more info...

 
Title: Re: Adding E Field Probe - Startup and Operation - not for construction
Post by: Cutty Sark Sailor on May 25, 2014, 09:25:38 AM
Addenda added to first post:  Tentative Operation Mode:
Title: Re: Adding E Field Probe - Startup?
Post by: dfroula on May 25, 2014, 09:36:45 AM
I'd bet that the earlier detection is because of the hysteresis effect in the ferrite antennas, which delay the signals measurably (compared to loop antennas). I once tried running with one flat-panel loop and one ferrite, oriented the same way. The delay in the ferrite antenna could be easily seen. There is no such delay in the E-field setup, of course.

I believe the server needs to "know" the antenna type to compensate for the ferrite delay. Hence, it's important to set your antenna type correctly in the controller setup.

Don
WD9DMP

One thing I seem to notice, much earlier stroke detections, often early in the 'precharge' time frame, for E signals, and much 'lower' on the initial ground wave impulse when using the H field signal at the server. This puts detection earlier in the "Time of Group Arrival" which should lead to even better location of strokes. This may still be 'illusionary' on my part, but appears to be consistent,...
Title: Re: Adding E Field Probe - Startup and Operation - not for construction
Post by: dfroula on May 25, 2014, 09:55:32 AM
Interesting....I had never looked closely at the "channel mapping" feature, as I never had more than one amp connected. The pop-up help on the controller web page describes it as you have - Normally ADC thresholds for channel A and channel B are shared between amp 1 and amp 2 inputs. Enabling channel mapping changes this, sharing a single ADC between channel A and B within each amp input, so the thresholds are locked together. Channel "C" on both amps always share the same ADC, so the threshold settings are always shared as well.

This has to affect the auto-noise feature, as I notice it normally sets a lower overall gain than what is set in the settings and tweaks the effective gain by quickly modifying the threshold settings on each channel. I'll try enabling channel mapping without a second amp and see what the auto-noise feature does. I'm guessing that it will become less responsive, as some common threshold must be determined and the slower gain adjustment will have to be used to tweak the individual channels.

Also, as you say, gains of the amps are not tied to the ADC configuration and can always be adjusted independently, as the gains are not a function of the ADC but of the op-amps themselves.

Making more sense now! Thanks!

Regards,

Don
WD9DMP

Now with channel mapping, unless I'm losing it somewhere along the way here... Channels A and B of amplifier 1 will share the same ADC, and threshold will be highest of the two.  Channels A and B of amplifier 2 will now share the same ADC, with same operation. Channel C of BOTH 1 and 2 share the same ADC. Again, with highest threshold ruling both C channels.

Without 'Channel Mapping"  Amp 1 channel A and Amp 2 Channel A share the same ADC.   ditto for the B channels. Channel C on both always share the same ADC.

So by channel mapping, changing thresholds affects only E field or H field, rather than specific channels or something like this.l.. I'm getting tired of thinking about it.... ](*,) No matter how I type or think it it still sounds nuts, even as you say...

Somehow I've come to the conclusion that, except for Channel C threshold same on both amps, this sets the two amps independent of each other, rather than mixing channels and thresholds....  Dang it Don!  You had to ask!
Title: Re: Adding E Field Probe - Startup and Operation - not for construction
Post by: Cutty Sark Sailor on May 25, 2014, 09:57:35 AM
I'd bet that the earlier detection is because of the hysteresis effect in the ferrite antennas, which delay the signals measurably (compared to loop antennas). I once tried running with one flat-panel loop and one ferrite, oriented the same way. The delay in the ferrite antenna could be easily seen. There is no such delay in the E-field setup, of course.

I believe the server needs to "know" the antenna type to compensate for the ferrite delay. Hence, it's important to set your antenna type correctly in the controller setup.

Don
WD9DMP

One thing I seem to notice, much earlier stroke detections, often early in the 'precharge' time frame, for E signals, and much 'lower' on the initial ground wave impulse when using the H field signal at the server. This puts detection earlier in the "Time of Group Arrival" which should lead to even better location of strokes. This may still be 'illusionary' on my part, but appears to be consistent,...
Don's referring to the antenna type settings on your member information page at login on Blitzortung.org:
(http://www.ourspecialnet.com/Weather/TwinHollies/i-t8XHrsG/0/L/antennan%20sets-L.jpg) (http://www.ourspecialnet.com/Weather/TwinHollies/i-t8XHrsG/A)
If E Field is on Amp 2, you'll skip 'input 2' since the C channel on H field has no antenna... yeah, the numbering begins at "0"
Title: Re: Adding E Field Probe - Startup and Operation - not for construction
Post by: dfroula on May 25, 2014, 10:02:24 AM
I'm doing a little maintenance work today on my high-def TV antenna and outside amp, adding a 6-foot mast to get a bit better elevation. I've been getting some drop-outs on certain channels depending on weather conditions. I also picked up a bracket for the e-field assembly I have planned.

I'll also run some of the same quad-shield RG6 I used for my ADS-B aircraft radar antenna while I'm up there. I'm relocating my Blitzortung station to a spare kitchen cabinet to accommodate the outdoor E-field antenna.

Don
WD9DMP
Title: Re: Adding E Field Probe - Startup and Operation - not for construction
Post by: dfroula on May 25, 2014, 10:05:00 AM
Yep, sorry for the error. That setting was moved from the  controller to the server quite a few firmware releases ago!

Don

I'd bet that the earlier detection is because of the hysteresis effect in the ferrite antennas, which delay the signals measurably (compared to loop antennas). I once tried running with one flat-panel loop and one ferrite, oriented the same way. The delay in the ferrite antenna could be easily seen. There is no such delay in the E-field setup, of course.

I believe the server needs to "know" the antenna type to compensate for the ferrite delay. Hence, it's important to set your antenna type correctly in the controller setup.

Don
WD9DMP

One thing I seem to notice, much earlier stroke detections, often early in the 'precharge' time frame, for E signals, and much 'lower' on the initial ground wave impulse when using the H field signal at the server. This puts detection earlier in the "Time of Group Arrival" which should lead to even better location of strokes. This may still be 'illusionary' on my part, but appears to be consistent,...
Don's referring to the antenna type settings on your member information page at login on Blitzortung.org:
(http://www.ourspecialnet.com/Weather/TwinHollies/i-t8XHrsG/0/L/antennan%20sets-L.jpg) (http://www.ourspecialnet.com/Weather/TwinHollies/i-t8XHrsG/A)
If E Field is on Amp 2, you'll skip 'input 2' since the C channel on H field has no antenna... yeah, the numbering begins at "0"
Title: Re: Adding E Field Probe - Startup and Operation - not for construction
Post by: Cutty Sark Sailor on May 25, 2014, 10:09:34 AM
WITH SEVERAL POSTS below the original, if you're coming back to the thread, and haven't read the initial post recently, remember it keeps getting added to... so you might want to rescan in case you missed something new...
Mike
Title: Re: Adding E Field Probe - Startup and Operation - not for construction
Post by: dfroula on May 25, 2014, 10:19:52 AM
Mike,

Now I'm really getting confused!

I enabled "Alternate Channel Mapping", which should force a common threshold setting for Channels A and B of my Amp 1. After a reboot, the Status page is happily showing the "Triiger" level (i.e. "Threshold") being independently adjusted for each channel to tweak the relative gain (auto-noise adjust enabled).

It seems the "Trigger" level should now be the same for both channels!

Any thoughts?

Regards,

Don
WD9DMP

Title: Re: Adding E Field Probe - Startup and Operation - not for construction
Post by: Cutty Sark Sailor on May 25, 2014, 10:49:03 AM
Mike,

Now I'm really getting confused!

I enabled "Alternate Channel Mapping", which should force a common threshold setting for Channels A and B of my Amp 1. After a reboot, the Status page is happily showing the "Triiger" level (i.e. "Threshold") being independently adjusted for each channel to tweak the relative gain (auto-noise adjust enabled).

It seems the "Trigger" level should now be the same for both channels!

Any thoughts?

Regards,

Don
WD9DMP


It will. Look on your signals page... I think your status page shows what you've set it for as 'default' unless you're in automatic... don't remember. The 'settings' page continues to show your 'default' settings. I didn't explain it well, when it referenced it as
'Note that the above will be the active state, as shown on your signals page, regardless of what you've attempted to input into the settings page, if you are using alternate channel mapping. Remember the shared ADCs." The threshold 'minimum' for both mapped channels will be the 'maximum' set for a channel. You can adjust one higher then the 'current highest', however, which now becomes the 'minimum' for both. Lordy, I love confusion.
Title: Re: Adding E Field Probe - Startup and Operation - not for construction
Post by: Cutty Sark Sailor on May 25, 2014, 10:55:09 AM
Bear with me.. something doesn't sound right about my reply to Don, just above... he's managed to get my mind in circles again...

LEAVE BRITTANY ALONE !!!!!!
Title: Re: Adding E Field Probe - Startup and Operation - not for construction
Post by: dfroula on May 25, 2014, 11:09:29 AM
Mike,

I think you have it right. With "Alternate Channel Mapping" and "Auto-Noise Adjust" both enabled, the threshold set in the "Settings" page becomes the maximum threshold for the auto-noise adjustment. The controller still can adjust the threshold (or "trigger" on the Status page) downward to increase the relative gain in small increments. It must do so, however, for both channels. Therefore, the firmware now needs to set the coarse gain setting for each channel and find a happy medium for the threshold, as it is now shared between channels.

Initially when I changed the settings, the thresholds still seemed to be adjusting independently, but they now seemed to have converged on a common setting for both channels and are moving together.

This must reduce the effectiveness of the auto-noise adjust function, but the firmware is actually doing a pretty good job, keeping my percentages at or near 100%. I suspect that noise on one channel will also force the effective gain of the unaffected channel downward, but a slower course gain adjustment on the unaffected channel should help compensate for it.

The net effect is less responsiveness and fewer adjustment steps on the auto-noise adjustment for the unaffected channel, but it still works OK.

Make sense?

Don
WD9DMP

It will. Look on your signals page... I think your status page shows what you've set it for as 'default' unless you're in automatic... don't remember. The 'settings' page continues to show your 'default' settings. I didn't explain it well, when it referenced it as
'Note that the above will be the active state, as shown on your signals page, regardless of what you've attempted to input into the settings page, if you are using alternate channel mapping. Remember the shared ADCs." The threshold 'minimum' for both mapped channels will be the 'maximum' set for a channel. You can adjust one higher then the 'current highest', however, which now becomes the 'minimum' for both. Lordy, I love confusion.
Title: Re: Adding E Field Probe - Startup and Operation - not for construction
Post by: Cutty Sark Sailor on May 25, 2014, 11:22:12 AM
Mike,

I think you have it right. With "Alternate Channel Mapping" and "Auto-Noise Adjust" both enabled, the threshold set in the "Settings" page becomes the maximum threshold for the auto-noise adjustment. The controller still can adjust the threshold (or "trigger" on the Status page) downward to increase the relative gain in small increments. It must do so, however, for both channels. Therefore, the firmware now needs to set the coarse gain setting for each channel and find a happy medium for the threshold, as it is now shared between channels.

Initially when I changed the settings, the thresholds still seemed to be adjusting independently, but they now seemed to have converged on a common setting for both channels and are moving together.

This must reduce the effectiveness of the auto-noise adjust function, but the firmware is actually doing a pretty good job, keeping my percentages at or near 100%. I suspect that noise on one channel will also force the effective gain of the unaffected channel downward, but a slower course gain adjustment on the unaffected channel should help compensate for it.

The net effect is less responsiveness and fewer adjustment steps on the auto-noise adjustment for the unaffected channel, but it still works OK.

Make sense?

Don
WD9DMP

It will. Look on your signals page... I think your status page shows what you've set it for as 'default' unless you're in automatic... don't remember. The 'settings' page continues to show your 'default' settings. I didn't explain it well, when it referenced it as
'Note that the above will be the active state, as shown on your signals page, regardless of what you've attempted to input into the settings page, if you are using alternate channel mapping. Remember the shared ADCs." The threshold 'minimum' for both mapped channels will be the 'maximum' set for a channel. You can adjust one higher then the 'current highest', however, which now becomes the 'minimum' for both. Lordy, I love confusion.
Right now almost anything makes sense. Right after I typed my response, I thought... dang, he's just running H on one amp.... hmmm ... after I passed the asteroid belt, I went brain dead,...
There has got to be a simple way to explain how these variables work. It would be discouraging to me as a new-comer.

The thing is, us 'older timers' with Red may have a mind set we've developed and as the need for these newer features comes around ... it's a bit easier to see how the 2 systems will interact, when I have the station operating... but jumping back and forth to H field, single amp, 2 signals, green and red, no yellow, A B C what works when, why and how whenever  is a bit tricky at first.. .but then I warned everybody in the primary post.
Remember how we learned Red at first? We had a blast, didn't we...?

This is gonna be even more fun... Even at that, we don't have the 'mental adjustment' our founding Greens would have to make as they hopefully upgrade to reds.

It may be "newbies" won't have nearly the confusion.  None of this really makes sense until we're actually seeing it in operation... to me anyway...

Title: Re: Adding E Field Probe - Startup and Operation - not for construction
Post by: Cutty Sark Sailor on May 25, 2014, 11:27:39 AM
Oh.. BTW folks,... we could have some long posts on this as we go...
if you'd like, you can prepare it and paste it here,... you're welcome to use
something I built up many, many years ago on my website for personal use,... and I forget it often.
http://ourspecial.net/postdriver/

Mike
Title: Re: Adding E Field Probe - Startup and Operation - not for construction
Post by: dfroula on May 25, 2014, 11:34:13 AM
Yeah, it was a blast!  8-)

Nope, no E-field yet.

I was just trying to figure out what effect turning on the alternate channel mapping would have on my existing H-field amp, as the alternate mapping seems necessary if a second E-field amp is added. It would make no sense to share a threshold value across two very different amps and antennas, methinks.

I think I proved (to myself, anyway) that the auto-noise adjust feature still works, just not quite as well, with the alternate mapping enabled. More monitoring needed, of course.

It's great you brought up the issue, as it would not have been obvious to someone just installing the second amp.

Don
WD9DMP

Mike,

I think you have it right. With "Alternate Channel Mapping" and "Auto-Noise Adjust" both enabled, the threshold set in the "Settings" page becomes the maximum threshold for the auto-noise adjustment. The controller still can adjust the threshold (or "trigger" on the Status page) downward to increase the relative gain in small increments. It must do so, however, for both channels. Therefore, the firmware now needs to set the coarse gain setting for each channel and find a happy medium for the threshold, as it is now shared between channels.

Initially when I changed the settings, the thresholds still seemed to be adjusting independently, but they now seemed to have converged on a common setting for both channels and are moving together.

This must reduce the effectiveness of the auto-noise adjust function, but the firmware is actually doing a pretty good job, keeping my percentages at or near 100%. I suspect that noise on one channel will also force the effective gain of the unaffected channel downward, but a slower course gain adjustment on the unaffected channel should help compensate for it.

The net effect is less responsiveness and fewer adjustment steps on the auto-noise adjustment for the unaffected channel, but it still works OK.

Make sense?

Don
WD9DMP

It will. Look on your signals page... I think your status page shows what you've set it for as 'default' unless you're in automatic... don't remember. The 'settings' page continues to show your 'default' settings. I didn't explain it well, when it referenced it as
'Note that the above will be the active state, as shown on your signals page, regardless of what you've attempted to input into the settings page, if you are using alternate channel mapping. Remember the shared ADCs." The threshold 'minimum' for both mapped channels will be the 'maximum' set for a channel. You can adjust one higher then the 'current highest', however, which now becomes the 'minimum' for both. Lordy, I love confusion.
Right now almost anything makes sense. Right after I typed my response, I thought... dang, he's just running H on one amp.... hmmm ... after I passed the asteroid belt, I went brain dead,...
There has got to be a simple way to explain how these variables work. It would be discouraging to me as a new-comer.

The thing is, us 'older timers' with Red may have a mind set we've developed and as the need for these newer features comes around ... it's a bit easier to see how the 2 systems will interact, when I have the station operating... but jumping back and forth to H field, single amp, 2 signals, green and red, no yellow, A B C what works when, why and how whenever  is a bit tricky at first.. .but then I warned everybody in the primary post.
Remember how we learned Red at first? We had a blast, didn't we...?

This is gonna be even more fun... Even at that, we don't have the 'mental adjustment' our founding Greens would have to make as they hopefully upgrade to reds.

It may be "newbies" won't have nearly the confusion.  None of this really makes sense until we're actually seeing it in operation... to me anyway...
Title: Re: Adding E Field Probe - Startup and Operation - not for construction
Post by: Cutty Sark Sailor on May 25, 2014, 11:47:56 AM
Don, that's exactly the reason I suggested turning all autos off, and getting the feel for the new addition, not even upgrading my firmware.
We had to 'feel out red' and the competition was a riot.. folks are gonna have to 'feel out E field' in the same way, the characteristics are different, the sensitivity is incredible, the filtering magnificent, and folks are NOT going to remember that the design intent is for signals under 500km, You put too much probe on this thing, you'll be out of whack before you know it.

One thing about the earlier "TOGA" detection... Egon would have that as far back as possible, and I think he did make some server adjustments to move it down the Ground Wave signal, and slightly back in time...

About the 'time delays'.. you'll note looking at the E field signals, each channel has a very specific time delay, determined by the filters. There is virtually no tolerance on those delays at the server level. Any diddling with component values and design is gonna mess with those,  At one point the designers, if I remember correctly, considered getting the boards prebuilt, and encapsulated to keep us from diddling with stuff, as we're prone to do.

Thank goodness that was quickly vetoed...

Anyway, as usual, somebody'll do that very thing, then wonder why signals are rejected, things don't work, etc.
I already made one error, failing to consider the specific reason for the specific power LED in the preamp. It didn't occur to me that is had a more important function than just lighting up, and saved us a few bucks.


Title: Re: Adding E Field Probe - Startup and Operation - not for construction
Post by: dfroula on May 25, 2014, 11:52:43 AM
Oh, you never used the external LED on the probe housing? I liked that idea!

What is the LED used for, a voltage reference?

Don
WD9DMP
Title: Re: Adding E Field Probe - Startup and Operation - not for construction
Post by: Cutty Sark Sailor on May 25, 2014, 12:00:27 PM
Oh, you never used the external LED on the probe housing? I liked that idea!

What is the LED used for, a voltage reference?

Don
WD9DMP
yes, in effect a rail splitter, more or less 2.5 v on the op amp.  I would not be surprised if any inherent noise in that particular LED is used to introduce some dither, also... who knows???
BTW,... a visible power light isn't needed... you'll know if the preamp isn't working...
I also decided that in effect adding the wires to the LED might affect the tight filtering... so I changed it back.
Title: Re: Adding E Field Probe - Startup and Operation - not for construction
Post by: dfroula on May 25, 2014, 01:05:39 PM
Hmm...confused again!  :grin:

Alternate channel mapping and auto-noise adjust enabled, yet both Status and Signals page showing DIFFERENT thresholds.

Don
WD9DMP
Title: Re: Adding E Field Probe - Startup and Operation - not for construction
Post by: Cutty Sark Sailor on May 25, 2014, 01:40:54 PM
Hmm...confused again!  :grin:

Alternate channel mapping and auto-noise adjust enabled, yet both Status and Signals page showing DIFFERENT thresholds.

Don
WD9DMP
LEAVE BRITTANY ALONE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!   ARRRRGGGHHH....
Title: Re: Adding E Field Probe - Startup and Operation - not for construction
Post by: Cutty Sark Sailor on May 25, 2014, 05:36:17 PM
Hmm...confused again!  :grin:

Alternate channel mapping and auto-noise adjust enabled, yet both Status and Signals page showing DIFFERENT thresholds.

Don
WD9DMP
LEAVE BRITTANY ALONE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!   ARRRRGGGHHH....
While server automatic control is still beta, and with both filters engaged, found a lot to be desired, as storms moved into 300 mi range with moderate longer range activity.  Had to return to manual, and lower gains to get out of interference and stay there... This is with all 5 channels running. Running 'borderline' now, if you follow me, in full manual, with channel mapping.
Title: Re: Adding E Field Probe - Startup and Operation - not for construction
Post by: Cutty Sark Sailor on May 25, 2014, 06:59:57 PM
***addenda:  To initial post... added e.g. spectrum signals comparing E field only to H field only.
Title: Re: Adding E Field Probe - Startup and Operation - not for construction
Post by: Cutty Sark Sailor on May 27, 2014, 08:16:50 AM
Adding to main post 5/27/14

Filters: (somewhat tame feral assumptions)*
     The coax and it's shielding is effectively part of a
High Pass filter > 5 KHz (preamp, coax, amp combined)
     First stage HP filter is in Pre-Amp, third stage in amp.
     50,100,150,200,250 Hz is effectively attenuated
     Similar with 60Hz and harmonics
23.4 KHz (18 KHz-30 KHz)
50 KHz   (I believe centered at 44KHz)

ア effective channel selectivity

A =    5KHz ア  覧  23KHz ア
B =  18KHz ア  覧  44KHz ア
C =    5KHz ア  覧  50KHz ア
* "Somewhat tame feral assumptions" = "Slightly wild guesses"
Title: Re: Adding E Field Probe - Startup and Operation - not for construction
Post by: Cutty Sark Sailor on May 27, 2014, 11:44:59 AM
5/24/14
added stroke filtering comparison image from 2 stations, one E+H, with alternate channel mapping
vs.
station running H only.
Same strokes for each station.
Title: Re: Adding E Field Probe - Startup and Operation - not for construction
Post by: W3DRM on May 27, 2014, 11:59:21 AM
NOTE TO WXFORUM MODERATORS/ADMINISTRATORS: I just tried to print this thread (using the PRINT button at the top of the thread) and discovered that while it will print the text, the images are represented only by the URL's. That really shoots down the feature because most of the time we want to view images along with the text. Not sure if there is some kind of different setting or if I'm doing something wrong here...  ](*,)
Title: Re: Adding E Field Probe - Startup and Operation - not for construction
Post by: Cutty Sark Sailor on May 27, 2014, 12:14:56 PM
Try printing as PDF...  :lol:  Those images and videos are coming from a totally different place server.  PDF may work, but you might old off. I've requested a 'proof reading' from development... may have to correct some stuff... never know.
Title: Re: Adding E Field Probe - Startup and Operation - not for construction
Post by: W3DRM on May 27, 2014, 12:29:48 PM
Try printing as PDF...  :lol:  Those images and videos are coming from a totally different place server.  PDF may work, but you might old off. I've requested a 'proof reading' from development... may have to correct some stuff... never know.

Thanks for the suggestion Mike. But, it didn't work either. I am sure it's simply the way SMF interprets a page it is going to print. If I do a simple Ctl-P then the entire page prints along with the images. The only problem is that if there are multiple pages in the thread then you have to print each page separately.

I'm trying to get my head around your dissertation on the thread subject matter and I like to see things in print so I can make notes as I go along - guess I'm just old-fashioned...  :lol:
Title: Re: Adding E Field Probe - Startup and Operation - not for construction
Post by: W3DRM on May 27, 2014, 12:43:53 PM
I just tried to get into the SMF website and nothing comes back. Says there is some kind of problem on the server.

A Google search shows some comments about this printing without images being a bug with the SMF software. I can't verify that since I can't get to the SMF website...  ](*,)

Further Google searching seems to indicate there is a mod to make SMF print images rather than just the URL to them. Again, with the site apparently down, I can't  check it out any further...
Title: Re: Adding E Field Probe - Startup and Operation - not for construction
Post by: Cutty Sark Sailor on May 27, 2014, 12:48:54 PM
I know the feeling, Don,... A whole lot of the confusion will be solved once you build and begin using the E-field... I thought maybe putting up the images and videos could help simulate that a bit.
I couldn't get my PDF to print, either... but you're right, with the images, it wants 29 pages.  remember, I believe admins have the print function set for text only, that would be standard procedure, using the thread 'print' button.

Take topic one, for example, highlight it all, and copy, past into Word or similar... see if that'll work... then you could edit it a bit.
Here it is raw pdf....
http://ourspecial.net/misc/Adding%20the%20E%20Field%20Probe.pdf
Title: Re: Adding E Field Probe - Startup and Operation - not for construction
Post by: W3DRM on May 27, 2014, 12:53:25 PM
I know the feeling, Don,... A whole lot of the confusion will be solved once you build and begin using the E-field... I thought maybe putting up the images and videos could help simulate that a bit.
I couldn't get my PDF to print, either... but you're right, with the images, it wants 29 pages.  remember, I believe admins have the print function set for text only, that would be standard procedure, using the thread 'print' button.

Take topic one, for example, highlight it all, and copy, past into Word or similar... see if that'll work... then you could edit it a bit.
Here it is raw pdf....
http://ourspecial.net/misc/Adding%20the%20E%20Field%20Probe.pdf

With Chrome (and perhaps other browsers too), you can highlight the section you want to print and then when you get to the actual print screen, you can tell it to print only the selected areas. Works great but takes a bit more work on the users part to make it happen. That's what I am about to do right now...
Title: Re: Adding E Field Probe - Startup and Operation - not for construction
Post by: Cutty Sark Sailor on May 27, 2014, 05:53:00 PM
ADDENDA: 5/27/14 (evening) Richo provided Gain and Filtering specs... added to main post, with minor data correction to previously posted info.
Title: Re: Adding E Field Probe - Startup and Operation - not for construction
Post by: Cutty Sark Sailor on June 01, 2014, 05:31:05 PM
Updated: 6/1/14 :qualification sentence modified under "suggested initial settings" regarding filters
Mike
Title: Re: Adding E Field Probe - Startup and Operation - not for construction
Post by: Cutty Sark Sailor on June 10, 2014, 07:23:33 PM
updated: 6/10/14 : Initial Post: added my settings return to full manual operation, with no extra filters, after running in Automatic with both filers for a period of time.
Title: Re: Adding E Field Probe - Startup and Operation - not for construction
Post by: miraculon on June 11, 2014, 03:24:23 PM
I have mine on full automatic. Since I went with 20cm for the antenna length and raised it up higher, it works really well. It also seems relatively immune to noise, which is surprising to me. All those LPF (low pass filters) really do the job, since all of my detectors are in scary proximity to overhead power lines. I am amazed.

This was a seriously good addition to the system!

Greg H
Title: Re: Adding E Field Probe - Startup and Operation - not for construction
Post by: dfroula on June 16, 2014, 09:36:15 AM
Once an E-field amp is added, setting the gains and thresholds is no longer as straightforward as before!

In my opinion, enabling "Alternate Channel Mapping" is an absolute must. The attached images attempt to show why.

Keep in mind that overall "relative gain" of a channel is affected by two things - the gains set on the op-amps (either fixed or adjustable) and the threshold settings. The apparent or "relative" gain can be increased by by increasing the gain on an adjustable op-amp stage or by reducing the threshold on that same channel. Conversely, the apparent or "relative" gain can decreased by decreasing the gain or increasing the threshold.

Gains are set on the amp board(s). Thresholds are set on the Analog to Digital Converters (ADCs) on the STM32F4Discovery board. The STM32F4Discovery has 3 ADCs, each with two channels. After the E-field amp is added, those six available ADCs need to be mapped to the five total channels of the two amps in a way that allows the channel thresholds to be adjusted for one amp without affecting the other. Compromises need to be made. Only the "Alternate Channel Mapping" option allow threshold settings of one amp to be made without affecting the settings of the other amp.

This is particularly important if the "Auto Adjust to Noise" feature is also enabled. That feature does fast relative gain adjustments in response to local noise by varying the thresholds. A slower adjustment is done by changing the gain of the adjustable op-amps on the channel experiencing the noise. Standard channel mapping will move the threshold of a channel on one amp, but unless "Alternate Channel Mapping" is enabled, the associated threshold on the other amp will change as well, even though it may not be experiencing the noise!

The same problem exists somewhat even with "Alternate Channel Mapping" enabled, as the thresholds of channels A and B on the same amp are now shared. However, at least the common threshold will now be on the same amp, where the noise source is more likely to be common. This allows the "Auto Adjust to Noise" feature to do a better job at reducing the effects of transient noise.

Best regards,

Don
Title: Re: Adding E Field Probe - Startup and Operation - not for construction
Post by: dfroula on June 16, 2014, 09:52:06 AM
I finished up my e-field amp kit yesterday. All fired up correctly the first time  :-).

I kept to the current convention of putting the e-field amp on controller input jack #2. I enabled the "alternate channel mapping" on the controller so that independent threshold adjustments could be made for channels A and B of each amp (but now common for channels A and B on the same amp). The channel C threshold is now common across the two amps, but as there is no channel C active on the H-field amp, there is essentially an independent threshold setting for channel C of the e-field. All gains are independently adjustable, except for the first stage of the e-field amp, which is common to all three channels. That gain is set by adjusting the first stage gain of the C channel. Channels A and B follow the first-stage setting once the gain setting is saved.

Currently, I have the preamp taped to a 6 foot length of PVC tubing clamped to a table in a second-story room (yes, indoors!) for testing. I am using a 6 inch piece of 12 gauge wire at the moment for an antenna.

I had some initial problems getting the signals recognized by the server. It turns out adding more than 2 channels to the controller causes the size of the UDP packet that is used to transmit the lightning data to exceed the 1500 byte MTU size used by default by my router (and most other devices on your local network). Most computers and other network devices will not create a packet with an MTU > 1500 bytes, so fragmentation is never needed. Not so for the Red controller! The controller board handles a data packet for > 2 channels by "fragmenting" the packet into two sub-packets. However, my router had a setting to reject fragmented packets from being accepted as a security feature, and was blocking all data from the controller from being sent, if more than 2 channels' worth of data were being transmitted. If you run into this, you may need to turn off the "Block Fragmented IP Packets" security function of your router, if it has such a setting and it is enabled. For reference, my router is a Motorola/Arris SBG6580 (combo DOCSIS 3 cable modem/router/wifi access point).

Once I sorted that issue, with Tobi's help, all started working perfectly. I eliminated a few local noise sources, found a reasonable gain setting, and enabled the "Auto Adjust to Noise" feature, which I have been using for the past few months. I find it works equally well for the e-field as on the h-field amp. With alternate channel mapping enabled, the "Auto Adjust to Noise" must adjust the common threshold for channels A and B together, rather than separately with the feature off. This results in more frequent gain changes to a degree, yet the firmware still does a great job of adjusting for transient noise, normally keeping all five channels at 100% of the set gains.

I found my signal rates and strike ratios have increased significantly. Often either the E-Field or H-field alone will trigger on a strike. When that happens, the signals from the other amp get sent as well if they meet the 10% of threshold criteria. Often, I see all five channels trigger together on a particularly strong strike.

I tried running with just the e-field. The range is quite comparable to that of the H-field. I believe I will need to tweak the gains lower on the e-field once it is properly mounted outdoors in a permanent enclosure.

Regards,

Don
WD9DMP
Title: Re: Adding E Field Probe - Startup and Operation - not for construction
Post by: JonathanW on June 16, 2014, 10:04:59 AM
Don,
Nice explanation of the alternate channel mapping advantages (I agree), and a great writeup on the troubleshooting you did with your router.  Fragmented packet rejection is a rather common feature designed to prevent end-runs around packet inspection (among other things), and for most people probably isn't a critical thing.  However, in this case it clearly causes problems.
Title: Re: Adding E Field Probe - Startup and Operation - not for construction
Post by: Cutty Sark Sailor on June 16, 2014, 11:46:11 AM
6/16/2014  added some stuff to initial post.
Title: Re: Adding E Field Probe - Startup and Operation - not for construction
Post by: W3DRM on June 16, 2014, 03:55:30 PM
---snip...
Don's referring to the antenna type settings on your member information page at login on Blitzortung.org:
(http://www.ourspecialnet.com/Weather/TwinHollies/i-t8XHrsG/0/L/antennan%20sets-L.jpg) (http://www.ourspecialnet.com/Weather/TwinHollies/i-t8XHrsG/A)
If E Field is on Amp 2, you'll skip 'input 2' since the C channel on H field has no antenna... yeah, the numbering begins at "0"

I'm going to suggest that the above referenced antenna setup info for the BO database should also be included in your first post as one of the steps in getting an E-Field kit up and running. That will eliminate someone having to search around for those details. I had remembered seeing this "somewhere in the forum" but couldn't remember where. It took me a few minutes of searching to find it. One additional comment about the settings - the dimension values are in millimeters (mm) correct?

EDIT:  :oops: Just found this info is, in fact in the first post... Still suggesting that the dimension values be noted as being in mm's.
Title: Re: Adding E Field Probe - Startup and Operation - not for construction
Post by: Cutty Sark Sailor on June 16, 2014, 04:52:19 PM
---snip...
Don's referring to the antenna type settings on your member information page at login on Blitzortung.org:
(http://www.ourspecialnet.com/Weather/TwinHollies/i-t8XHrsG/0/L/antennan%20sets-L.jpg) (http://www.ourspecialnet.com/Weather/TwinHollies/i-t8XHrsG/A)
If E Field is on Amp 2, you'll skip 'input 2' since the C channel on H field has no antenna... yeah, the numbering begins at "0"

I'm going to suggest that the above referenced antenna setup info for the BO database should also be included in your first post as one of the steps in getting an E-Field kit up and running. That will eliminate someone having to search around for those details. I had remembered seeing this "somewhere in the forum" but couldn't remember where. It took me a few minutes of searching to find it. One additional comment about the settings - the dimension values are in millimeters (mm) correct?

EDIT:  :oops: Just found this info is, in fact in the first post... Still suggesting that the dimension values be noted as being in mm's.
Yes, the pop up help on the page gives instructions...
Title: Re: Adding E Field Probe - Startup and Operation - not for construction
Post by: dfroula on June 16, 2014, 05:54:33 PM
One issue that my diagrams don't show...if the "hidden" Amp1, Channel C threshold is set higher than the Channel C threshold on Amp2, the "hidden" threshold will be used instead of the C threshold set on Amp 2. The only way to get the hidden value to show on the settings page is to force all channels on, then be sure the Channel C thresholds for both amps are set the same.

I'll try to rework the diagrams to show this clearly.

Don
WD9DMP

Once an E-field amp is added, setting the gains and thresholds is no longer as straightforward as before!

In my opinion, enabling "Alternate Channel Mapping" is an absolute must. The attached images attempt to show why.

Keep in mind that overall "relative gain" of a channel is affected by two things - the gains set on the op-amps (either fixed or adjustable) and the threshold settings. The apparent or "relative" gain can be increased by by increasing the gain on an adjustable op-amp stage or by reducing the threshold on that same channel. Conversely, the apparent or "relative" gain can decreased by decreasing the gain or increasing the threshold.

Gains are set on the amp board(s). Thresholds are set on the Analog to Digital Converters (ADCs) on the STM32F4Discovery board. The STM32F4Discovery has 3 ADCs, each with two channels. After the E-field amp is added, those six available ADCs need to be mapped to the five total channels of the two amps in a way that allows the channel thresholds to be adjusted for one amp without affecting the other. Compromises need to be made. Only the "Alternate Channel Mapping" option allow threshold settings of one amp to be made without affecting the settings of the other amp.

This is particularly important if the "Auto Adjust to Noise" feature is also enabled. That feature does fast relative gain adjustments in response to local noise by varying the thresholds. A slower adjustment is done by changing the gain of the adjustable op-amps on the channel experiencing the noise. Standard channel mapping will move the threshold of a channel on one amp, but unless "Alternate Channel Mapping" is enabled, the associated threshold on the other amp will change as well, even though it may not be experiencing the noise!

The same problem exists somewhat even with "Alternate Channel Mapping" enabled, as the thresholds of channels A and B on the same amp are now shared. However, at least the common threshold will now be on the same amp, where the noise source is more likely to be common. This allows the "Auto Adjust to Noise" feature to do a better job at reducing the effects of transient noise.

Best regards,

Don
Title: Re: Adding E Field Probe - Startup and Operation - not for construction
Post by: Cutty Sark Sailor on June 16, 2014, 05:59:52 PM
One issue that my diagrams don't show...if the "hidden" Amp1, Channel C threshold is set higher than the Channel C threshold on Amp2, the "hidden" threshold will be used instead of the C threshold set on Amp 2. The only way to get the hidden value to show on the settings page is to force all channels on, then be sure the Channel C thresholds for both amps are set the same.

I'll try to rework the diagrams to show this clearly.

Don
WD9DMP

Once an E-field amp is added, setting the gains and thresholds is no longer as straightforward as before!

In my opinion, enabling "Alternate Channel Mapping" is an absolute must. The attached images attempt to show why.

Keep in mind that overall "relative gain" of a channel is affected by two things - the gains set on the op-amps (either fixed or adjustable) and the threshold settings. The apparent or "relative" gain can be increased by by increasing the gain on an adjustable op-amp stage or by reducing the threshold on that same channel. Conversely, the apparent or "relative" gain can decreased by decreasing the gain or increasing the threshold.

Gains are set on the amp board(s). Thresholds are set on the Analog to Digital Converters (ADCs) on the STM32F4Discovery board. The STM32F4Discovery has 3 ADCs, each with two channels. After the E-field amp is added, those six available ADCs need to be mapped to the five total channels of the two amps in a way that allows the channel thresholds to be adjusted for one amp without affecting the other. Compromises need to be made. Only the "Alternate Channel Mapping" option allow threshold settings of one amp to be made without affecting the settings of the other amp.

This is particularly important if the "Auto Adjust to Noise" feature is also enabled. That feature does fast relative gain adjustments in response to local noise by varying the thresholds. A slower adjustment is done by changing the gain of the adjustable op-amps on the channel experiencing the noise. Standard channel mapping will move the threshold of a channel on one amp, but unless "Alternate Channel Mapping" is enabled, the associated threshold on the other amp will change as well, even though it may not be experiencing the noise!

The same problem exists somewhat even with "Alternate Channel Mapping" enabled, as the thresholds of channels A and B on the same amp are now shared. However, at least the common threshold will now be on the same amp, where the noise source is more likely to be common. This allows the "Auto Adjust to Noise" feature to do a better job at reducing the effects of transient noise.

Best regards,

Don
Yes, setting them the same is great!

You might also try to set the 'hidden' to the 'lowest' threshold you think you might want to use for E field C... you may find a time you'll want to go lower, and you won't be able to, unless you've 'preset' a lower figure in the "hidden" C... You'll always be able to set your E field C higher, but not go lower than your "Hidden" channel C
Title: Re: Adding E Field Probe - Startup and Operation - not for construction
Post by: dfroula on June 17, 2014, 11:08:14 AM
Carrying this one step farther, turn on "Force all channels on" and set Amp 1, Channel C to the minimum value, 1mV. Then turn off "Force all channels on". Now, the Amp 2, Channel C threshold will be assured of being the value set in the Amp 2 settings.

If this is done as a one-time setup, the two jpegs I posted earlier will be correct.

Don

You might also try to set the 'hidden' to the 'lowest' threshold you think you might want to use for E field C... you may find a time you'll want to go lower, and you won't be able to, unless you've 'preset' a lower figure in the "hidden" C... You'll always be able to set your E field C higher, but not go lower than your "Hidden" channel C
Title: Re: Adding E Field Probe - Startup and Operation - not for construction
Post by: Cutty Sark Sailor on June 17, 2014, 04:40:39 PM
Carrying this one step farther, turn on "Force all channels on" and set Amp 1, Channel C to the minimum value, 1mV. Then turn off "Force all channels on". Now, the Amp 2, Channel C threshold will be assured of being the value set in the Amp 2 settings.

If this is done as a one-time setup, the two jpegs I posted earlier will be correct.

Don

You might also try to set the 'hidden' to the 'lowest' threshold you think you might want to use for E field C... you may find a time you'll want to go lower, and you won't be able to, unless you've 'preset' a lower figure in the "hidden" C... You'll always be able to set your E field C higher, but not go lower than your "Hidden" channel C
Added Don's "Keep it Simple" solution =D> to avoid 'threshold' confusion, and revised that portion considerably.  Thanks, Don!
Title: Re: Adding E Field Probe - Startup and Operation - not for construction
Post by: W3DRM on June 17, 2014, 11:54:39 PM
Just got home after a 7-hour drive (two-way) and I see you guys are making changes to the procedure...  :-P

Anyway, while looking to see what has changed I noticed something that might confuse a newbie (well, it confused me...).

In the following section, it states:

"Suggested intial settings:

Run in manual mode. You want control with fixed parameters for awhile.
Turn off all filters..."

Looking at the referenced image, I only see one thing that seems to be related to "filters". It reads "Auto Amplitude Filter". Is this the selection you are referring to or am I missing something? If it is only that one then shouldn't it read "Turn OFF (or deselect) the Auto Amplitude Filter selection?

I also see a typo where it says "Suggested intial settings:" Should be "initial".

Will work on getting my supplementary document updated tomorrow.
Title: Re: Adding E Field Probe - Startup and Operation - not for construction
Post by: dfroula on June 18, 2014, 08:46:20 AM
There are two filter mechanisms. The first is the "Ignore signals below threshold" filter. This determines whether a signal on a channel is transmitted to the servers when another channel reaches the threshold value. When this "trigger" occurs, the info from the other channels will also be sent if their amplitude at the time of the trigger is >= the specified percentage of the threshold setting for that channel. This value should be left at the default 10%. For example, if Channel A reaches its trigger threshold of, say, 120mV, the other active channels, say Channel B, will be evaluated to see if their amplitudes are at least at 10% of their threshold settings. If it is, the transmitted UDP packet will contain data for that channel(s) as well. This can be effectively disabled by setting the "Ignore signals below threshold" to 100%. Then, only if a channel exceeds its own threshold value will it be sent. It is a bad idea to do so, since the servers will not see supplementary information from the other channels - particularly with the E-field amp, which an also be used to determine strike polarity and intensity, even if the E-field channels did not reach their own trigger thresholds. You do not want to disable this filter.

The other filter is the "Auto Amplitude Filter", which can remove certain high-amplitude noise sources that have a very regular interval. It is this filter that should not be enabled, at least for initial setup.

Best regards,

Don
WD9DMP
Title: Re: Adding E Field Probe - Startup and Operation - not for construction
Post by: DaleReid on June 18, 2014, 08:52:42 AM
Don,
A VERY clear explanation.  I had no idea on how those worked in detail.

Thanks.
Dale
Title: Re: Adding E Field Probe - Startup and Operation - not for construction
Post by: Cutty Sark Sailor on June 18, 2014, 08:59:48 AM
Right... sorry about that.. I was referring to the automatic modes, auto noise, and auto amplitude... I've gone back and specified those in that portion... thanks.,. Reason for not running those is to begin the process of tracing any interference, if necessary, and to also "prove" that the amps are working and other adjustments, etc, work as designed.
 
Title: Re: Adding E Field Probe - Startup and Operation - not for construction
Post by: W3DRM on June 18, 2014, 10:47:40 AM
Mike & DonF,

Thanks for the clarification and answering my questions as well as though of other members.

You two have really dug into the theory and operational aspects of this entire Blitzortung system. I think everyone who reads these posts will gain from your explanations and experiences. I certainly have and thank you both for your contributions to this project.
Title: Re: Adding E Field Probe - Startup and Operation - not for construction
Post by: Cutty Sark Sailor on June 18, 2014, 11:21:36 AM
Well, Don and I both figure if we can keep you all confused enough...  :twisted:
Title: Re: Adding E Field Probe - Startup and Operation - not for construction
Post by: miraculon on June 18, 2014, 03:00:22 PM
I decided to go "Full Automatic" and enjoy the ride...
It does sound like you guys are tweaking to your hearts content, though.

Greg H.
Title: Re: Adding E Field Probe - Startup and Operation - not for construction
Post by: W3DRM on June 18, 2014, 08:09:42 PM
The latest version of the Startup and Operation document has been uploaded. The link to it can be found in the first post of the Blitzortung Documentation thread:
Title: Re: Adding E Field Probe - Startup and Operation - not for construction
Post by: W3DRM on June 18, 2014, 10:10:26 PM
Wow, since going through the steps that Mike & DonF have provided for us, I am noticing a much higher level of "Good" signals than I did when I had everything set in "Automatic" mode. I'm running in Manual Mode starting off with the settings suggested. I did have to lower some of the Amp settings and also raised the threshold settings for Amp 1 due to constant interference mode with the default settings.

All of this with both Ferrite and E-field antennas sitting in my office pretty much surrounded by computers and electronic gear. The outside move is still planned but time to do it just hasn't been on the board, as yet.

I've attached a few screen captures of the Tracker Status Graph that shows the dramatic jump in Good signals.
Title: Re: Adding E Field Probe - Startup and Operation - not for construction
Post by: W3DRM on June 19, 2014, 11:33:43 AM
Mike,

Where are the "Spectrum" jpegs found? I see the "Raw Signals" jpegs on bo.org but can't figure out where the others are.
Title: Re: Adding E Field Probe - Startup and Operation - not for construction
Post by: Cutty Sark Sailor on June 19, 2014, 12:08:35 PM
Don...
check your pm
Title: Re: Adding E Field Probe - Startup and Operation - not for construction
Post by: Cutty Sark Sailor on July 13, 2014, 07:45:57 AM
7/13/2014 ADDED THE FOLLOWING NOTE TO PRIMARY POST:
You CANNOT DISABLE E-field signals by checking "don't send" on the settings page. The server wants to see all three channels. Best you can do is set gains to 1x1, thresholds to "0". You can adjust gains.
Title: Re: Adding E Field Probe - Startup and Operation - not for construction
Post by: Silversword on July 20, 2014, 08:50:09 PM
Hi All,

I have a question as to the distance for this antenna system will cover?  If it does not go beyond my surrounding body of water, it would not be worth installing this antenna at my location.

Any thoughts on this?

Regards,

--Stan Y.
   Maui, Hawaii
Title: Re: Adding E Field Probe - Startup and Operation - not for construction
Post by: Cutty Sark Sailor on July 21, 2014, 06:14:17 AM
Hi All,

I have a question as to the distance for this antenna system will cover?  If it does not go beyond my surrounding body of water, it would not be worth installing this antenna at my location.

Any thoughts on this?

Regards,

--Stan Y.
   Maui, Hawaii

Ahhh.... Stan....
The 'issue' with E field, is it's extremely sensitive...  I've said once or twice, that a receiver could probably get lightning on Jupiter, if we could get the signals through the ionosphere!

Because of the sensitivity, it will pick up anything in the filtered bands, up to 50Khz... anything -- from all directions. Aurora from the South Pole, if set right. That's one thing that limits the range.... too many signals... so the "gain" of the preamp is actually a reduction! Those of us who have a quiet enough environment can pretty much equal the H field's reception if we choose... but that 's not what it's designed for, and those long range signals will likely be 'useless' for the intent.

It's designed to be utilized for shorter range... under 500 miles.  The C channel is the critical channel, and is virtually the same data, omnidirectional, of the output of the (directional) H field. The A and B channels have other purposes... eventually for precision stroke info such as type, polarity, etc.  Used with the H field signal, many more things will be possible.

So, it's not whether the system is valuable or not... it's because you are out there keeping the faith, alone, opening the store every day, but no customers.  Because whichever system is used, single or dual, it still takes 3 pairs of stations ( a minimum of 4 stations in other words) to locate a signal.

If it were me, I'd go for it anyway.  One reason, --when the interest hits Hiawaii, other stations need the old pro, who sat there with the candle in the window waiting for visitors. Able to tell them things like "the fleet's on exercise, that noise will go away in 72 hours... don't worry about it'. 

Plus  the pretty Magenta and Teal and Orange signal traces added to the Green and Red are kinda fun to look at...

Hang in there! Virginia City Nevada just went on line... sooner or later we may get enough western stations with an environment that will allow them to 'crank up' and help you until the Islanders wake up!

Mike
Title: Re: Adding E Field Probe - Startup and Operation - not for construction
Post by: Silversword on July 22, 2014, 08:42:36 PM
Hi,

Thanks Mike for the info.  I wrote to support at BO and see if they had any on stock but they are out at this time.  Tobias relied and suggested that being out here may not make a difference and I still need to figure out my noise issue.  Have not been able to work on this as too many things got to my time to work on it..

Maybe this weekend I'll be able to put some time into it.

Thanks again for your input and suggestion.

--Stan Y.
   Maui, Hawaii
Title: Re: Adding E Field Probe - Startup and Operation - not for construction
Post by: Cutty Sark Sailor on November 23, 2014, 10:24:34 AM
Thought I'd give this aging thread a bump, since the info is still valid.  A lot has been gleaned from the E field addition to system RED.  The info and data, and signal quality we've supplied are going to make the next generation of BO hardware something to astound folks.  You might expect some 'dramatic' changes in approach and signal processing. Some will be surprising, I expect, but I wouldn't be surprised to see those of us who may hook up with 'System 3' (whatever color it winds up being   :-" )  sitting in front of our monitors at this time next year with our jaws gaping....   :-#
Title: Re: Adding E Field Probe - Startup and Operation - not for construction
Post by: DaleReid on November 23, 2014, 11:20:49 AM
Hey, I'm pretty amazed already!

My little solo Efield was looking down into Texas and the Gulf seeing strikes yesterday and today.

Hows that for astounding.
Title: Re: Adding E Field Probe - Startup and Operation - not for construction
Post by: sacreyweather on December 22, 2014, 11:58:16 AM
Hi Folks,

Finally got my E-field online yesterday, thanks to Jumpin Joe. I initially had used the CAT5 connection that came with the E filed kit on my Red controller, because when I originally ordered the Red, it only had one normal CAT 5 connection with it, instead of 2. So, after looking here, I saw where Don (Minden, NV) had ordered some more off of Ebay. He was kind enough to send me the part #.  I ordered those. Then I went to work on building the E field kit. Got the kit built, got the connectors in.  Assembled everything, (after placing one of the SMD's in the wrong spot).  Took everything out to the Red location, plugged it in and.....nothing happened. No power, lights, etc.  Needless to say I was bummed. Brought the E field back into the house, went over it with a 10X magnifying glass, and couldn't see anything wrong.

Long story made short is the connector I had gotten had an internal power connection built into it that wasn't allowing anything to work. Joe tracked it down for me. I would have never considered that being the problem.

It is currently detecting some of the strokes out in the Gulf of Mexico, some 500-700 miles away from me. The preamp/antenna is currently inside my shed about 8 feet above the ground, and about 4 feet away from the H field antenna, which my explain some of the additional noise I am seeing. I'm open to suggestions as to its final placement.

Thanks,

John
Title: Re: Adding E Field Probe - Startup and Operation - not for construction
Post by: Cutty Sark Sailor on December 22, 2014, 06:46:55 PM
Good show, John...  =D>
(And Limpin' Joe (temporay) er... Jumpin Joe.)
Your sigs look good on H field...
E field probe/preamp assy needs to be OUTSIDE....   away from the shed.  8-12 feet high should be fine. Mine's 21', I think.

Mike
Title: Re: Adding E Field Probe - Startup and Operation - not for construction
Post by: Cutty Sark Sailor on May 23, 2015, 10:31:10 AM
 :twisted: This topic needs to be bumped.  Especially with the new "Blue" system on the horizon... So, here... "BUMP", dang it...
Title: Re: Adding E Field Probe - Startup and Operation - not for construction
Post by: orion_jb2001 on August 08, 2015, 09:55:15 AM
Hi all,

I am just about to do some pre season maintenance work on my set up and am just going over posts in general.  How critical in all this is the  channel threshold settings? ALso is there a link to somewhere that goes more into these particular settings?

Jeff
Title: Re: Adding E Field Probe - Startup and Operation - not for construction
Post by: DaleReid on August 08, 2015, 11:02:06 AM
I'm far from being expert, but can say that since my H field drown, I'm running only E field,
I'm manual mode, with standard settings across the board, with auto adapt on, and all three (a and b aren't used as far as I can tell) set to 10 and 8 for gains which works for my local noise setting.

I have been seeing strikes within 7 miles and not going into interference mode, and yet have received signals and been purple with submission for strikes that are in Texas and Kansas and even near Florida, even though I'm in north western wisconsin, near minneapolis. 

I can't say that I've had a lot of time to fiddle and tweak, and am looking for an eventual auto setting, but with the performance this summer, I'm happy to leave it set as is, know I'm contributing, not into interference all the time, and doing surprisingly well with just the Efield.

I have tried in the past to have long range with the H and it was frequently sending me into interference mode.  Awhile ago Egon hinted or outright said that he'd envision (in other words, this is what will be) more short range detection as more stations come on line.  There are still a lot of holes across the US and Canada and Mexico, but for the most part there are good patterns to watch.  And there is absolutely nothing even rabid participants can do about it since there are no more REDs and BLUE is still in trial and production. 

If you've not tried the settings I've mentioned, then let me know, or if there are others that need values that I overlooked.  And I'm thinking your noise environment may not find those numbers I've entered to be best. 

If you've not done so, turn your H amps off for awhile.  We are seeing a lot of storms all over the country today, so you'll have the chance to play with it a bit.  I've gotten a kit to build up to replace the H stuff that drowned, but haven't yet, mainly because what I have is working well enough right now, and far to many things have surfaced in the last couple months to let me proceed with final assembly of the H kit.
Title: Re: Adding E Field Probe - Startup and Operation - not for construction
Post by: DaleReid on August 08, 2015, 11:03:28 AM
I'm modifying that statement.  I've seen at least one strike while watching that was within 3 miles and did not trigger interference mode. Kept on ticking and hearing storms that were a few hundred miles away while the north part of our county got hammered pretty well.