Author Topic: Repeated signal dropouts  (Read 7184 times)

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Offline openvista

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Re: Repeated signal dropouts
« Reply #150 on: January 13, 2018, 02:48:37 AM »
Just for heck of it, let's game out a Davis support interaction. After summarizing the problem and offering corroboration, I would insist Davis cut me a check for my Vue console. Why? Because I'm not sticking Ryan @ Scaled Instruments with the return just so Davis can send me the same product for free. This one works fine so far. And I'm not going to pay Davis to fix what appears to be a design error. What's more, I'm not performing free labor for Davis by testing out a 3rd VP2 console only to, quite likely, return it. So the only successful scenario ends with an apology, a check and a promise by Davis to reach out to their users and make this right (which I would expect to hear about from actual users on this forum). Since none of that is going to happen, I just skipped to the part where I solved my own problem (even if it involved an unjust expense to me).

This thread, unlike the pointless exercise above, is an effort to help others with this problem. If after reading it they wish to contact Davis support, that is their right, especially if their product is under warranty.

Assuming Davis were interested in visiting the most likely place on the internet their users would describe problems with their products, maybe they already know? There I go making assumptions.... ;)
« Last Edit: January 13, 2018, 02:52:14 AM by openvista »
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Online Mattk

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Re: Repeated signal dropouts
« Reply #151 on: January 13, 2018, 04:16:47 AM »
Appears like some have lost the plot with this one, this thread isn't going anywhere at the moment expect downhill.

Offline openvista

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Re: Repeated signal dropouts
« Reply #152 on: January 13, 2018, 10:50:34 AM »
As of this morning, after 30 hours spent below 10F, I have not experienced any loss of connection with my transmitters on the Vue console (0 resyncs and 0 sensor errors in my software). I've never had a 24 hour period on any of my VP2 consoles at these temperatures without issues.

Over the same period the VP2 console had 5 resyncs with the ISS and 4 resyncs with the wind transmitter. Yesterday I observed a ~6 hour ISS outage on the VP2.

I think I know what I need to know at this point.
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Offline W3DRM

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Re: Repeated signal dropouts
« Reply #153 on: January 13, 2018, 02:45:17 PM »
Openvista, I am glad your new Vue console is working for you and the signal-drop issue appears to be resolved. As you said, hopefully others will read this thread and gain some knowledge about the issue so they can make their own rational decision on the matter.

Good luck with the new Vue console!
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Offline Old Tele man

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Re: Repeated signal dropouts
« Reply #154 on: January 13, 2018, 03:28:35 PM »
As I hinted at earlier, switching to a VUE console seemed (for whatever reasons) to SOLVE my ISS-to-console "drop-out" problems, which were NOT solved by changing ISS unit (I bought a spare), ISS CR123A batteries (replaced a LOT of them), or ISS-cover solar panel (also a spare).

Bluntly, the VUE console *receiver* seems to operate better...although the original VP2 Console worked fine during its initial 4-years of service, then began to suddenly experience periodic "low battery on #1" notices regardless of CR123A battery life/replacements.
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Offline openvista

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Re: Repeated signal dropouts
« Reply #155 on: January 13, 2018, 03:41:36 PM »
As I hinted at earlier, switching to a VUE console seemed (for whatever reasons) to SOLVE my ISS-to-console "drop-out" problems, which were NOT solved by changing ISS unit (I bought a spare), ISS CR123A batteries (replaced a LOT of them), or ISS-cover solar panel (also a spare).

Bluntly, the VUE console *receiver* seems to operate better...although the original VP2 Console worked fine during its initial 4-years of service, then suddenly began to experience periodic "low battery on #1" notices regardless of CR123A battery life/replacements.

I never received low battery warnings even though my software, WeatherCat, checks battery strength daily. Although that error could be an idiosyncracy of a particular weather application (WeatherLink?).

In my case, both receivers experienced signal problems in cold weather *as soon as they were placed in those conditions*. For my first console, that was the first winter in Michigan (it lived in AZ before that for 2 yrs). For my 2nd console, issues occurred immediately after being placed into service in January 2016.
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Offline LABob

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Re: Repeated signal dropouts
« Reply #156 on: January 15, 2018, 10:03:19 AM »
I still wonder if a 16340 (rechargeable CR123A) might perform better in this scenario. I can't find data on the 16340 size, but the better 18650 batteries still have 3.5V at 14F (as low as the published data go). Even if I assume a steep voltage drop off from there, we're looking at staying above 3V until somewhere around -25F.

When I first proposed the idea I was worried that the 4.2V maximum of these batteries might be an issue, but since then have realized that the power adapter supplies 5V. It seems like these batteries shouldn't be an issue.

Offline ValentineWeather

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Re: Repeated signal dropouts
« Reply #157 on: January 15, 2018, 10:16:17 AM »
This thread explains why the Vue has better reception. RF chip in Vue is better.

http://www.wxforum.net/index.php?topic=33638.msg341444#msg341444
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Online Bunty

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Re: Repeated signal dropouts
« Reply #158 on: January 16, 2018, 02:42:48 AM »
Put the console antenna in the up position, if you don't already do, to see if that helps prevent signal dropouts. 

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Offline dalecoy

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Re: Repeated signal dropouts
« Reply #159 on: January 19, 2018, 05:04:15 PM »
In my case, both receivers experienced signal problems in cold weather *as soon as they were placed in those conditions*. For my first console, that was the first winter in Michigan (it lived in AZ before that for 2 yrs). For my 2nd console, issues occurred immediately after being placed into service in January 2016.

A question for those who have studied the available data in detail:

Is this (dropouts with receiving from transmitters in very low temperature) - more prevalent for installations that have multiple transmitters being received by the console?

Offline openvista

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Re: Repeated signal dropouts
« Reply #160 on: January 19, 2018, 05:20:58 PM »
In my case, both receivers experienced signal problems in cold weather *as soon as they were placed in those conditions*. For my first console, that was the first winter in Michigan (it lived in AZ before that for 2 yrs). For my 2nd console, issues occurred immediately after being placed into service in January 2016.

A question for those who have studied the available data in detail:

Is this (dropouts with receiving from transmitters in very low temperature) - more prevalent for installations that have multiple transmitters being received by the console?

ValentineWeather and I both have multiple transmitters, but zackdog does not and he had the issue. Beyond that I can't say as there is incomplete information.

Good question, though. Will anyone else with the issue please report how many xmtrs you use?
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Offline CW2274

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Re: Repeated signal dropouts
« Reply #161 on: January 19, 2018, 05:27:15 PM »
Evidently the phone call I made to Davis has fallen on deaf ears, or they're "researching" it. Oh well...

Offline dalecoy

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Re: Repeated signal dropouts
« Reply #162 on: January 21, 2018, 07:18:38 PM »
In my case, both receivers experienced signal problems in cold weather *as soon as they were placed in those conditions*. For my first console, that was the first winter in Michigan (it lived in AZ before that for 2 yrs). For my 2nd console, issues occurred immediately after being placed into service in January 2016.

A question for those who have studied the available data in detail:

Is this (dropouts with receiving from transmitters in very low temperature) - more prevalent for installations that have multiple transmitters being received by the console?

ValentineWeather and I both have multiple transmitters, but zackdog does not and he had the issue. Beyond that I can't say as there is incomplete information.

Good question, though. Will anyone else with the issue please report how many xmtrs you use?

Perhaps zackdog will confirm.  I don't quite understand what zackdog said

December 17, 2016
Quote
This morning my console lost connection for half an hour, but my additional temperature sensor remained connected.  Got ISS to reconnect and then the temperature sensor lost connection.

http://www.wxforum.net/index.php?topic=30972.msg308465#msg308465

Offline dalecoy

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Re: Repeated signal dropouts
« Reply #163 on: January 21, 2018, 08:32:39 PM »
Also, from:
November 06, 2017, 11:27:50 AM
http://www.wxforum.net/index.php?topic=24211.msg335789#msg335789

Quote
I looked closer and noticed I was receiving from ISS #2.  I had forgotten that ISS #4 was my wireless temperature station

Offline openvista

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Re: Repeated signal dropouts
« Reply #164 on: January 21, 2018, 11:20:07 PM »
Well, I know earlier in the thread zackdog said he didn't have a wind transmitter (http://www.wxforum.net/index.php?topic=33496.msg340824#msg340824). The graphs he posted were of his ISS. It's possible he wasn't always using a separate temp station when he was experiencing outages. Hopefully, he'll clarify.

Another person who reported this issue is miraculon, and I'm pretty sure he has multiple transmitters. Again, he'll have confirm.

MonumentHillWeather said that when he first got his wind transmitter he had issues (http://www.wxforum.net/index.php?topic=33496.msg340146#msg340146). Although I'm not sure if his issue was strictly cold related or not.

Assuming all 3 members mentioned above receive multiple channels and no one with a single transmitter is reporting cold weather drop outs, then we may have a new working hypothesis. However, it still wouldn't be iron clad because MonumentHillWeather's situation cleared up with a replacement console. Nevertheless, that new stipulation would go a long way to explaining why there aren't more people seeing the problem.

« Last Edit: January 21, 2018, 11:28:16 PM by openvista »
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Offline johnd

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Re: Repeated signal dropouts
« Reply #165 on: January 22, 2018, 04:49:05 AM »
So, just to summarise what has been a long thread, your working hypothesis AIUI is that:

1. Very cold conditions cause some change in the profile or character of the VP2 transmitter signal, but probably to some aspect other than signal strength (RSSI), which seems to look good right up until contact is dropped;

2. The changes in [1] make it increasingly difficult for the VP2 console to retain lock on the signal, an issue that is exacerbated when there are multiple transmitters in use. But Vue consoles appear more tolerant to the degraded signal than VP2 consoles.
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Offline openvista

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Re: Repeated signal dropouts
« Reply #166 on: January 22, 2018, 07:16:42 AM »
So, just to summarise what has been a long thread, your working hypothesis AIUI is that:

1. Very cold conditions cause some change in the profile or character of the VP2 transmitter signal, but probably to some aspect other than signal strength (RSSI), which seems to look good right up until contact is dropped;

2. The changes in [1] make it increasingly difficult for the VP2 console to retain lock on the signal, an issue that is exacerbated when there are multiple transmitters in use. But Vue consoles appear more tolerant to the degraded signal than VP2 consoles.

Yes, however, I'd tweak #2 to say that, until we hear differently, it may be fair to say that multiple transmitters are a prerequisite to experiencing signal lock problems. I have yet to confirm a case where the person involved has only 1 transmitter being received.
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Offline miraculon

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Re: Repeated signal dropouts
« Reply #167 on: January 22, 2018, 08:23:00 AM »
Quote
Another person who reported this issue is miraculon, and I'm pretty sure he has multiple transmitters. Again, he'll have confirm.

I have a total of six transmitters and one long-range repeater.

Transmitters consist of 2 anemometer transmitters, a VP2 ISS, a Temp/Hum station, another "rain station"/temp station, and a temp station. (I have a mish-mash of stations configured as "ISS" for the Envoy8x and MBPro that do double duty)

The only LOS that has occurred is a very old "eBay special" VP2 console and the Marina VUE/Repeater setup. The "Marina VUE" only looks at the Marina data on Station #1/Repeater A. I suspect that the Marina's ISS actually experienced the "low temp issue" (whatever it is) because the signal from the Marina's Weatherlink page was also lost coincidentally with my repeater signal. I suspect that the long range repeater takes a long time to synch back up and do its FHSS dance.

The last time I checked the ISS and Temp/Hum batteries (November?) the voltages were just around 3V. I have all "OK" on the Weatherlink (PC SW) battery status page.

The signals from my own sensors have not been lost on two VP2 consoles, two VUE consoles, two Envoys and an Envoy8x. Only the old "eBay" console lost signal and went to dashes.

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Offline openvista

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Re: Repeated signal dropouts
« Reply #168 on: January 22, 2018, 08:53:13 AM »
Quote
Another person who reported this issue is miraculon, and I'm pretty sure he has multiple transmitters. Again, he'll have confirm.

I have a total of six transmitters and one long-range repeater.

Transmitters consist of 2 anemometer transmitters, a VP2 ISS, a Temp/Hum station, another "rain station"/temp station, and a temp station. (I have a mish-mash of stations configured as "ISS" for the Envoy8x and MBPro that do double duty)

The only LOS that has occurred is a very old "eBay special" VP2 console and the Marina VUE/Repeater setup. The "Marina VUE" only looks at the Marina data on Station #1/Repeater A. I suspect that the Marina's ISS actually experienced the "low temp issue" (whatever it is) because the signal from the Marina's Weatherlink page was also lost coincidentally with my repeater signal. I suspect that the long range repeater takes a long time to synch back up and do its FHSS dance.

The last time I checked the ISS and Temp/Hum batteries (November?) the voltages were just around 3V. I have all "OK" on the Weatherlink (PC SW) battery status page.

The signals from my own sensors have not been lost on two VP2 consoles, two VUE consoles, two Envoys and an Envoy8x. Only the old "eBay" console lost signal and went to dashes.

Greg H.

This is interesting. On one hand, it lends credence to the idea that this is a timing issue of some sort. Perhaps we should refine the hypothesis to including "VP2 consoles receiving repeater(s) or multiple transmitters in approximately 10F (-12C) or colder conditions". That's still far from a guaranteed formula, of course, as Greg points out. But if you accept the idea of component tolerances varying just enough for some to experience it and others not, and combined with all the other prereqs, that could make sense.

On the other hand, someone else had earlier claimed that this issue seems "new" in that it only was observed recently. They went on to speculate that it was, perhaps, limited to newer equipment and/or firmware. But miraculon is observing this on a "very old" VP2 console. Does it have the original firmware on it, Greg? What is its approximate vintage?
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Offline miraculon

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Re: Repeated signal dropouts
« Reply #169 on: January 22, 2018, 09:02:30 AM »
Quote
Does it have the original firmware on it, Greg? What is its approximate vintage?
I believe that is is circa 2006, and was able to accept the latest (current) firmware. It takes significantly longer to sync up than the newer consoles. (one 2011 and another about a year old)

G

Offline openvista

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Re: Repeated signal dropouts
« Reply #170 on: January 22, 2018, 09:08:18 AM »
Quote
Does it have the original firmware on it, Greg? What is its approximate vintage?
I believe that is is circa 2006, and was able to accept the latest (current) firmware. It takes significantly longer to sync up than the newer consoles. (one 2011 and another about a year old)

G

OK, good to know. My 2013 console had the original, shipped firmware (never updated) and still exhibited the drop outs, so the issue is not limited to the latest firmware. Now we know it can happen on an early console too.
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Offline dalecoy

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Re: Repeated signal dropouts
« Reply #171 on: January 22, 2018, 10:35:47 AM »
A question for those who have studied the available data in detail:

Is this (dropouts with receiving from transmitters in very low temperature) - more prevalent for installations that have multiple transmitters being received by the console?

I'm glad I asked that question.

Candidate for Postulate #3:  VP2 stations meet the stated temperature specifications, when only one transmitter is involved. 

[johnd, what would be the percentage of installations with more than one transmitter - and the percentage within areas that experience cold conditions (and owners who would notice dropouts)]

Offline openvista

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Re: Repeated signal dropouts
« Reply #172 on: January 22, 2018, 11:07:58 AM »
Candidate for Postulate #3:  VP2 stations meet the stated temperature specifications, when only one transmitter is involved. 

My only reservation is that someone was reporting something like this issue back in 2009 (see: https://www.wxforum.net/index.php?topic=6115.25) on a new VP2 station with only 1 transmitter. He was told by Davis support it was due to his trailer having an aluminum frame (not cladding, just the framing). I don't really buy that explanation, but I cannot confirm any further details nor what the resolution was, if any. He replaced the console, ISS transmitter SIM, xmtr batteries, changed channels and the issue still persisted.

Key quote:

Quote
...as night comes start getting really low signals/dash outs and show 1157 bad packets 360 CRCs and 10 reconnects for one night. The trend I'm seeing is the colder it is the worse it gets. Now if that's normal I'm not impressed. I also don't think its normal to be standing within 20 feet of the ISS and get bad connections.

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Offline zackdog

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Re: Repeated signal dropouts
« Reply #173 on: January 22, 2018, 11:11:34 AM »
Sorry I haven't checked in here for a while.  I am doing a little digging into my records to gather some more information on the problems I have had.  One thing I do know is that I did not get the additional temp/hum transmitter until 12/2/2016, long after I had problems with console.

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Offline openvista

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Re: Repeated signal dropouts
« Reply #174 on: January 22, 2018, 11:16:52 AM »
Sorry I haven't checked in here for a while.  I am doing a little digging into my records to gather some more information on the problems I have had.  One thing I do know is that I did not get the additional temp/hum transmitter until 12/2/2016, long after I had problems with console.

Mark

Alright, well that would tell us this can happen with only 1 transmitter ID selected for reception. So, yes, johnd, the issue is, perhaps, "exacerbated" by extra transmitters/repeaters.

Also, I sent a PM to MarkWX who reported similar issues in 2009 requesting he join us here, if he's up to it.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2018, 11:18:45 AM by openvista »
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