Author Topic: NWS Paducah tracking chaff on radar?  (Read 3617 times)

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Offline vreihen

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NWS Paducah tracking chaff on radar?
« on: December 11, 2018, 06:57:50 AM »
https://www.courierpress.com/story/weather/2018/12/10/whats-up-sky-weather-radar-mystery-unfolds-tri-state/2273535002/

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What's that up in the sky? A weather radar mystery unfolds in the Tri-State

Ryan Reynolds, Evansville Courier & Press
Published 9:37 p.m. CT Dec. 10, 2018 | Updated 10:01 p.m. CT Dec. 10, 2018

EVANSVILLE -- What probably should've been an uneventful night at the National Weather Service office in Paducah, Kentucky has instead turned into a night spent observing a mystery unfold.

Since a little before 3 p.m. CST Monday, the station's crew has been tracking something on its radar. And we say "something" because the meteorologists at the station aren't sure what caused a radar return to begin showing up over Southern Illinois, then drifting over Southern Indiana and into Western Kentucky.

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Interesting radar return over Wabash County IL, moving south off KPAH radar. pic.twitter.com/wmLGWtXxid

— NWS Paducah (@NWSPaducah) December 10, 2018

It is a clear night with very little wind and temperatures in the 20s in the Tri-State, so that rules out a shower or a thunderstorm. And here's the thing: The radar return was of the strength of what you'd seen in a strong storm.

As of 9:20 p.m., the radar return had drifted well into Western Kentucky and elongated. The National Weather Service at Paducah, Kentucky issued another message on Twitter seeking reports from people in Madisonville and Owensboro.

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Folks are still trying to figure out what this is. pic.twitter.com/pZVoewciXE

— Ryan G. Reynolds (@RyanReynolds) December 11, 2018

The best guess the folks at the weather service have is that it's military chaff that originated in Richland County, Illinois around 2:45 p.m. Monday. For more than six hours, it has floated to the south and east.

Chaff was developed during World War II, and the British and Germans used it to create false returns on radar. The website globalsecurity.org describes it this way:

"Chaff consists of small fibers that reflect radar signals and, when dispensed in large quantities from aircraft, form a cloud that temporarily hides the aircraft from radar detection. The two major types of military chaff in use are aluminum foil and aluminum-coated glass fibers. The aluminum foil-type is no longer manufactured, although it may still be in use."

There are two military installations within a quick flight of the area where the chaff originated: Scott Air Force Base in Shiloh, Illinois (just east of St. Louis) and the Naval Surface Warfare Center Crane Division in Southern Indiana, about 75 miles away.

A third military base in the region is at Fort Campbell, on the Kentucky-Tennessee state line.

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The leading theory is chaff that originated in far southern Richland County IL around 2:50 PM this afternoon. Here is a 6.5 hour loop.... pic.twitter.com/eVwEbLVsQ7

— NWS Paducah (@NWSPaducah) December 11, 2018

Reached by phone late Monday evening, National Weather Service meteorologist Greg Meffert said the office had been tracking the return at altitudes up to 10,000 feet, but returns were also showing up at ground level.

"It might be chaff released from an aircraft, but we've never seen it quite this hot," said Meffert.

(I asked him what he meant by "hot" and Meffert said it was a description of how strong the material was showing up on radar.)

The other thing is that in the past, Meffert said, they got reports from people finding pieces of the chaff in their yards. The early darkness likely hampered that today -- the sunset at Evansville was at 4:31 p.m.

Meffert said he previously worked for the National Weather Service office in Little Rock, Arkansas, which dealt with chaff on occasion from the local U.S. Air Force base. But around the Evansville area? It's out of the ordinary.

"We'll just keep listening like everyone else" to find out what it is, Meffert said.
WU Gold Stars for everyone! :lol:

Offline miraculon

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Re: NWS Paducah tracking chaff on radar?
« Reply #1 on: December 11, 2018, 08:33:51 AM »
I remember watching a segment on one of the Science Channel shows about a radar anomaly in Huntsville. I can't seem to find the program on Sci channel, but I did find this:

https://whnt.com/2013/06/05/chaff-new-theory-on-mystery-radar-blob/

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Offline CW2274

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Re: NWS Paducah tracking chaff on radar?
« Reply #2 on: December 11, 2018, 02:19:32 PM »
I've seen chaff many times and that's exactly what it looks like....I just didn't get to see it in multi-color.
I guess that's why Davis consoles don't bug me. :roll:


Offline Jstx

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Re: NWS Paducah tracking chaff on radar?
« Reply #4 on: December 11, 2018, 03:51:53 PM »
Much of the year the EWX WFO, San Antonio/Austin radar picks up the tens of millions of local bats emerging and returning at dusk and dawn to their daytime roosts, usually area caves. They look like that a bit, then they disperse as they feast on our pesky insects in the whole area; over thousands of square miles, industrious little boogers.

Offline CW2274

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Re: NWS Paducah tracking chaff on radar?
« Reply #5 on: December 11, 2018, 03:55:04 PM »
We paint large flocks of birds all the time, especially migratory season with geese.

Offline WeatherHost

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Re: NWS Paducah tracking chaff on radar?
« Reply #6 on: December 11, 2018, 05:26:23 PM »
I remember watching a segment on one of the Science Channel shows about a radar anomaly in Huntsville. I can't seem to find the program on Sci channel, but I did find this:

https://whnt.com/2013/06/05/chaff-new-theory-on-mystery-radar-blob/

Greg H.



Check Cheyenne, WY looking west.  Tell me what you think it is.  (I know).


Chaff and birds aren't that big of a deal, so I'm not sure why PAH is making a fuss over it.



Offline CW2274

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Re: NWS Paducah tracking chaff on radar?
« Reply #7 on: December 11, 2018, 05:30:11 PM »
I remember watching a segment on one of the Science Channel shows about a radar anomaly in Huntsville. I can't seem to find the program on Sci channel, but I did find this:

https://whnt.com/2013/06/05/chaff-new-theory-on-mystery-radar-blob/

Greg H.

Chaff and birds aren't that big of a deal
Would be if you were on the plane that flies into them.

Offline Jstx

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Re: NWS Paducah tracking chaff on radar?
« Reply #8 on: December 11, 2018, 06:13:05 PM »
We paint large flocks of birds all the time, especially migratory season with geese.

Birds are cool, they all concentrate on a flyway around here from EWX, CRP to BRO heading into Mexico and points south (and back), and show up. Monarch butterflies too, although there used to be millions of them going by, don't think I've seen even one in recent years.
But bats are ubercool, I had some fancy palm trees that each held a small bat colony, liked to sit on the porch and watch them go off to work.
Now I have a pasture across the lane that has hundreds of raptors (hawks) who roost in the trees and on the ground twice a year. It's awesome to see them lift off in the morning in a huge rotating column on their way to continue their journey south or north, as the season may be.

Offline CW2274

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Re: NWS Paducah tracking chaff on radar?
« Reply #9 on: December 11, 2018, 06:31:00 PM »
We paint large flocks of birds all the time, especially migratory season with geese.
Birds are cool
Yes they are, I use to go birding quite often. However, I think my use of "painting" may be confusing, I'm speaking of a radar skin paint, not brush and easel.

Offline chief-david

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Re: NWS Paducah tracking chaff on radar?
« Reply #10 on: December 11, 2018, 06:39:57 PM »
Omaha gets geese in a wildlife refuge NE of Omaha
Lacrosse, WI has tracked mayflies on radar.



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Offline Jstx

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Re: NWS Paducah tracking chaff on radar?
« Reply #11 on: December 11, 2018, 07:22:20 PM »
We paint large flocks of birds all the time, especially migratory season with geese.
Birds are cool
Yes they are, I use to go birding quite often. However, I think my use of "painting" may be confusing, I'm speaking of a radar skin paint, not brush and easel.

Your use of the term "painting" didn't confuse me. As the owner of several marine radar units (one of which I sometimes roll out of the garage when a storm is coming), and a former microwave tech (among other hats worn), I'm quite familiar with most 'PPI screen' things. I've taken a number of MW and radar courses, long ago; used to whip up a mean Smith Chart.

This area and points south is a very famous birder area, lots of them flock in to visit for the winter season.
I like watching birds too, always have, but not as an official birder. My favorites are the great grackles, pelicans, and the chachalacas (like a small turkey), smart they are; and cardinals (have had some cardinals that flit and chirp through my trees the same way almost every evening, for the last 20+ years, it must have been passed down in this cardinal family, because I doubt it's the same cardinal all these years).
What's amazing is to be 20 or 100 miles offshore and have some tiny little bird land on the rigging and rest a while in the middle of the Gulf, that takes some huevitos to cross a huge body of water by a 4 ounce bird; and they've been doing it for millions of years..

Offline CW2274

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Re: NWS Paducah tracking chaff on radar?
« Reply #12 on: December 11, 2018, 07:28:13 PM »
We paint large flocks of birds all the time, especially migratory season with geese.
Birds are cool
Yes they are, I use to go birding quite often. However, I think my use of "painting" may be confusing, I'm speaking of a radar skin paint, not brush and easel.
As the owner of several marine radar units (one of which I sometimes roll out of the garage when a storm is coming)
Okay, he with the most toys wins.  =D>

Offline chief-david

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Offline CW2274

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Re: NWS Paducah tracking chaff on radar?
« Reply #14 on: December 12, 2018, 02:51:56 PM »
It made the news

https://www.foxnews.com/us/source-of-mysterious-radar-blips-over-illinois-and-kentucky-still-not-solved
:lol: Riiight. If it walks like a duck....Don't know why they're trying to keep it such a big "secret".  :roll:

Offline WeatherHost

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Re: NWS Paducah tracking chaff on radar?
« Reply #15 on: December 12, 2018, 04:29:17 PM »
Ya' know, I keep telling y'all about the number of C130s, Blackhawks and Chinooks flying over the area.  There are a lot of major bases like Ft Cambpell, Ft Knox, Ft Leavenworth and so on they travel between.  It's not unreasonbale to think they did some sort of test, or maybe even a simple 'ooopps shouldn't have hit THAT button'.  Seems like a lot of guff over some chaff.

Who knows, maybe it was even reindeer dung?


Offline Jstx

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Re: NWS Paducah tracking chaff on radar?
« Reply #16 on: December 12, 2018, 05:13:47 PM »
We paint large flocks of birds all the time, especially migratory season with geese.
Birds are cool
Yes they are, I use to go birding quite often. However, I think my use of "painting" may be confusing, I'm speaking of a radar skin paint, not brush and easel.
As the owner of several marine radar units (one of which I sometimes roll out of the garage when a storm is coming)
Okay, he with the most toys wins.  =D>

Not really toys to me, been in the MW and hi-tech sectors most of a fairly long career (to the degree that I have an oscilloscope collection).

A hint: Not many can justify spending on a new, modern digital radar set, starting around $4K going to tens of $Ks, IIRC. Some high end models are even Doppler.
But if you put in a running search on eBay, you'll turn up quite a few older model analog (marine) radars for reasonable prices.
Still not usually cheap, unless you look at a non-working but repairable one. But you might find a decent analog unit starting at around $500, although most will be $8-900 to $2K, the cost of an (overpriced) decent Davis WX ensemble.

Most of these will have a monochrome CRT, but some LCD color units are out there. X-band powers range from maybe 1KW to 6KW (pulsed), with ranges from 6-8 miles to 48 miles (higher powers available, but expensive, 8-40KW+).
Don't recommend having body parts in the beam path (usually X-band, ~8-12GHz, or $Sband, 2-4GHz--which would probably disrupt WiFi, etc., for miles around).
Almost all will accept a GPS input, usually in NMEA format, which allows accurate positioning of 'own ship' and targets (storms).

Of course they'll work better on a marine environment or flat, uncongested terrain, but you can compensate to a degree.
Some things like certain structures, hills and mountains, a city environment, etc., probably prohibit any effective use of a radar. Unless the scanner (MW antenna) is considerably elevated, which brings up the need for an expensive extension cable (fairly hard to find used, maybe impossible new).
BTW, a dome (enclosed) antenna is probably better than an array type (rotating bar) for most uses, but doesn't look as cool. The larger higher power units tend to be array antennae.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weather_radar

Offline CW2274

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Re: NWS Paducah tracking chaff on radar?
« Reply #17 on: December 12, 2018, 05:33:30 PM »
We paint large flocks of birds all the time, especially migratory season with geese.
Birds are cool
Yes they are, I use to go birding quite often. However, I think my use of "painting" may be confusing, I'm speaking of a radar skin paint, not brush and easel.
As the owner of several marine radar units (one of which I sometimes roll out of the garage when a storm is coming)
Okay, he with the most toys wins.  =D>

Not really toys to me
Of course not. However, prolly not too many folk that have their own WX radar they can just simply pull outta the garage. 8-)

Offline chief-david

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Re: NWS Paducah tracking chaff on radar?
« Reply #18 on: December 12, 2018, 05:56:29 PM »
Some day CW. Some day



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Offline CW2274

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Re: NWS Paducah tracking chaff on radar?
« Reply #19 on: December 12, 2018, 06:12:16 PM »
Some day CW. Some day
I'd bet the HOA would love that! [-X

Offline vreihen

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Re: NWS Paducah tracking chaff on radar?
« Reply #20 on: December 12, 2018, 07:37:06 PM »
I'd bet the HOA would love that! [-X

Speaking of some day, I'm patiently waiting for the day when WSR-88D's are put out on the surplus market:



When that happens, Bluetooth and consumer wifi will be useless in several of my neighboring towns when I crank the transmit power knob up to 11.....  :lol:
WU Gold Stars for everyone! :lol:

Offline WeatherHost

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Re: NWS Paducah tracking chaff on radar?
« Reply #21 on: December 12, 2018, 07:57:05 PM »
^^  That street name doesn't happen to be Mockingbird Lane, does it?


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Offline chief-david

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Re: NWS Paducah tracking chaff on radar?
« Reply #23 on: December 12, 2018, 08:19:55 PM »
Some day CW. Some day
I'd bet the HOA would love that! [-X

It still wouldn't be enough to make my neighbors mad. There is a story there.



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Offline Central Maine Weather

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Re: NWS Paducah tracking chaff on radar?
« Reply #24 on: December 12, 2018, 08:35:00 PM »
Just had lots of Chaff on the KGYX radar based out of the Gray, Maine NWS office here in our area. Very odd!
Check out the loop if you get a chance, it’s pretty impressive. It was on this evenings news/local weather reports. Not a cloud in the sky so we definitely know that’s what it is!
https://radar.weather.gov/radar_lite.php?product=NCR&rid=GYX&loop=yes

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