Author Topic: Another VP2 ultrasonic anemometer option  (Read 15180 times)

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Offline johnd

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Re: Another VP2 ultrasonic anemometer option
« Reply #75 on: October 28, 2018, 05:33:32 AM »
O-3V realtive to what? I'm no electronics expert, but shouldn't it be using some sort of common rail so that the output voltage is some fraction of the input reference voltage relative to the input ground?

IIRC the red wire in the 4-conductor anemometer cable is effectively the ground/earth/common connection, so the direction indication should be +(0-3)V relative to that.

The LCJ DZP solar-powered ultrasonic anemometer (for further info see our main website at https://www.weatherstations.co.uk/lcj-ultrasonic-anemometer.htm) is a drop-in replacement for the standard 6410 anemometer and uses the standard 'RJ11' connector. So assuming this alternative ultrasonic unit works in a similar way to the LCJ, there's no reason in principle why the interface as described shouldn't work OK.

NB I wasn't there myself, but I'm told that there were quite a number of newly introduced ultrasonic anemometers on show at the Amsterdam weather station trade show a couple of weeks back. These were mostly from Chinese manufacturers and typically somewhat higher-priced units (though not high-end). These were part of general weather stations (ie rather than 6410 replacements) and many apparently were using (copying?) the Gill MaxiMet type of design. But it is an indication that ultrasonic anemometers do seem to be moving more into the mainstream, albeit still significantly higher-priced than eg 6410.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2018, 05:41:17 AM by johnd »
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Offline dalecoy

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Re: Another VP2 ultrasonic anemometer option
« Reply #76 on: October 28, 2018, 11:42:05 AM »
O-3V realtive to what? I'm no electronics expert, but shouldn't it be using some sort of common rail so that the output voltage is some fraction of the input reference voltage relative to the input ground?

IIRC the red wire in the 4-conductor anemometer cable is effectively the ground/earth/common connection, so the direction indication should be +(0-3)V relative to that.


Not exactly, johnd

The direction indication (if it's a voltage) should be some percentage of the voltage difference between the red wire and the yellow wire. 

Now, what's the voltage on the yellow wire?  That's whatever is supplied by the SIM (at least with the standard Davis anemometer).  So, it would almost certainly be something other than 3.0 V.  I don't know the internals of the SIM, but the voltage is (normally) supplied by the solar/supercap/battery/external supply. 

Oh - but maybe the ultrasonic anemometer is putting 3.0 Volts on the yellow wire?  Hmmmmmm.  Referenced to what "ground/earth/common"?  Oh - maybe the ultrasonic anemometer is connecting the ground/earth/common of it's external 12V supply to the ground/earth/common of the SIM?  Or.........?????

The correct simulation would be a variable resistance (potentiometer) simulation, not a voltage.  That has no "common" reference.  That's why I've been asking about measuring it with an ohmmeter.

Offline mcrossley

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Re: Another VP2 ultrasonic anemometer option
« Reply #77 on: October 28, 2018, 12:02:51 PM »
That is what I was trying to get at, it shouldn't be just outputting a voltage (without referencing to what), it should be outputting a fraction of the reference voltage supplied by the ISS referenced to the ISS common line (as the solar and UV sensors work). I suspect the ISS just measures the returned voltage rather than measuring the resistance via a voltage and current calculation.
Mark

Offline johnd

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Re: Another VP2 ultrasonic anemometer option
« Reply #78 on: October 28, 2018, 02:29:23 PM »
Aren't we just debating semantics or terminology, at least to a large extent though?

My picture (which CBW of course) is that when the current direction is read the voltage at the wiper relative to common is 'measured' (which should be equivalent to measuring the resistance) and eg applied to an A/D converter. Why does it matter whether that voltage is derived from the ISS supply voltage or effectively emulated by a different type of anemometer as long as both are referenced to the same ground? Of course the reference/supply voltage might not be exactly 3.00V for both voltage sources and so is a potential source of error, but at a guess both will be 3.0±0.1V or better and so won't be a major source of error in the context of direction. And maybe the circuitry of a well-designed alternative anemometer could provide a correction even for that discrepancy.

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Offline dalecoy

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Re: Another VP2 ultrasonic anemometer option
« Reply #79 on: October 28, 2018, 03:59:52 PM »
Aren't we just debating semantics or terminology, at least to a large extent though?

My picture (which CBW of course) is that when the current direction is read the voltage at the wiper relative to common is 'measured' (which should be equivalent to measuring the resistance) and eg applied to an A/D converter. Why does it matter whether that voltage is derived from the ISS supply voltage or effectively emulated by a different type of anemometer as long as both are referenced to the same ground? Of course the reference/supply voltage might not be exactly 3.00V for both voltage sources and so is a potential source of error, but at a guess both will be 3.0±0.1V or better and so won't be a major source of error in the context of direction. And maybe the circuitry of a well-designed alternative anemometer could provide a correction even for that discrepancy.

It's not "the voltage at the wiper relative to common is 'measured' (which should be equivalent to measuring the resistance)".

It's the voltage at the wiper as a percentage of the total voltage across the potentiometer. 

Assume, for instance, that the Davis solar panel is powering the SIM and the solar panel voltage is 2.8 volts - and the anemometer direction signal is supplying 2.95 volts.  What's the direction of the wind?  [NOTE: This is just an example - I have been asking for more information, as you know]

But it's not just semantics or terminology - especially in the case where the anemometer is being powered by an external 12V supply.  The anemometer will have internal circuitry with voltages referenced to the anemometer common.  The SIM will have internal circuitry with voltages referenced to the ISS common.  You said: "as long as both are referenced to the same ground", and that may be a very important point - if the anemometer is supplying a voltage, rather than a resistance (potentiometer) that does not have a common/ground reference (like the Davis anemometer).

Also, do the anemometer and the ISS have a "frame ground" in any situation?  Like an external power supply for the ISS?  What if those "frame grounds" are actually connected together, by mounting them on the same tower, or .......

And finally, the above discussion is where the cabled VP2 differs significantly from the wireless model.  The cabled VP2 clearly has a "common reference" (one of the wires from the console to the ISS). 

There are a lot of variables here - I'm not saying there's anything amiss.  But the "wireless VP2" and "anemometer supplied by an external 12V source" has been reported here as having problems.  That would be understandable if (for instance) that anemometer is truly supplying a 0-3V directional signal, (with perhaps a common reference different from the SIM).

One key question (in my opinion) would be whether the anemometer direction can be measured with an ohmmeter. 

Offline dalecoy

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Re: Another VP2 ultrasonic anemometer option
« Reply #80 on: October 28, 2018, 10:30:40 PM »
Footnote:  It's also possible that the ultrasonic anemometer is supplying a "reference voltage" (perhaps 3.0 volts) on the yellow wire (the wire that goes to the other end of potentiometer of a Davis anemometer). 

I have no idea what that would do, given that the "reference voltage" normally comes from the SIM.  And is "normally" less than 3.0 volts, at least during part of the day, with a solar-powered ISS. 

Offline graculus

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Re: Another VP2 ultrasonic anemometer option
« Reply #81 on: October 29, 2018, 10:30:46 AM »
OK, let's make some assumptions:

1: Dalecoy is correct that the voltage supplied by the ISS to the anemometer pot varies with battery/supercap state.

2: The processing inside the ultrasonic anemometer is digital not analog.

3: Follows from 2, that there is a digital to analog conversion taking place to generate a voltage output for direction.

The logical way to make this direction voltage output ratiometric would be to use the ISS pot voltage as the reference voltage for the D/A conversion. That's how I would build it anyway.


Offline dalecoy

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Re: Another VP2 ultrasonic anemometer option
« Reply #82 on: October 29, 2018, 12:01:52 PM »

3: Follows from 2, that there is a digital to analog conversion taking place to generate a voltage output for direction.

The logical way to make this direction voltage output ratiometric would be to use the ISS pot voltage as the reference voltage for the D/A conversion. That's how I would build it anyway.

Yes, that would make sense.  Of course, "ISS pot voltage as the reference voltage" means using the voltage between the ISS red (- / common) and yellow (+) wires.  Then proportionately supplied to the green (direction input) wire.

Note that there are 4 wires involved - the black wire handles the wind speed pulses  (pulsing to the red wire).

Now, handle all of that with two separate power sources (one roughly 3 volts and the other roughly 12 volts).  And remember that the "commons" of those two power sources might be connected in some installations, and might be UNconnected in other installations. 

Again, I'm not saying that there's any design problem (although we haven't heard from Stefan from HONGYUV in 4 days or so).  Just saying that this "active interface" isn't exactly as simple as the "passive interface" of the Davis anemometer.


Offline rdsman

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Re: Another VP2 ultrasonic anemometer option
« Reply #83 on: October 29, 2018, 01:12:01 PM »
The anemometer works fine with the ISS running on solar?  Craps out after dark?  Sounds like a bad filter cap (leaky) somewhere in the 12 volt portion.....

« Last Edit: October 29, 2018, 01:52:00 PM by rdsman »
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Offline miraculon

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Re: Another VP2 ultrasonic anemometer option
« Reply #84 on: October 29, 2018, 01:28:31 PM »
I was wondering if the wind direction could be implemented with a digital potentiometer. It is a "pot on a chip" and behaves just like a mechanical potentiometer.

Here is an Analog Devices app note: https://www.analog.com/media/en/technical-documentation/application-notes/AN-1121.pdf

Indeed, Stefan's diagram here shows a digital potentiometer for the vane.

(it's under the "generalities" and in the diagram)
https://www.wxforum.net/index.php?topic=34832.msg361908#msg361908



Also, if you look at WxTech's excellent resource page on the Davis wind set, the "excitation voltage" for the direction pot is pulsed out of the SIM. Hence, the digi pot makes more sense than a DAC output scheme.

Greg H.



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Offline graculus

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Re: Another VP2 ultrasonic anemometer option
« Reply #85 on: October 29, 2018, 01:35:31 PM »
Also, if you look at WxTech's excellent resource page on the Davis wind set, the "excitation voltage" for the direction pot is pulsed out of the SIM. Hence, the digi pot makes more sense than a DAC output scheme.

Greg H.

Good point, I had forgotten that it would likely be pulsed like the other ISS sensors. Since the voltage pulse and the reading are synchronized the D/A reference concept would still work.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2018, 01:45:35 PM by graculus »

Offline graculus

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Re: Another VP2 ultrasonic anemometer option
« Reply #86 on: October 29, 2018, 01:39:14 PM »
And remember that the "commons" of those two power sources might be connected in some installations, and might be UNconnected in other installations. 

Are you suggesting that the anemometer PSU and the Davis PSU would both have one side of the DC output grounded? Otherwise the only common link would be when the anemometer is connected to the ISS.

Offline dalecoy

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Re: Another VP2 ultrasonic anemometer option
« Reply #87 on: October 29, 2018, 05:14:56 PM »
And remember that the "commons" of those two power sources might be connected in some installations, and might be UNconnected in other installations. 

Are you suggesting that the anemometer PSU and the Davis PSU would both have one side of the DC output grounded? Otherwise the only common link would be when the anemometer is connected to the ISS.

I am suggesting that, under some circumstances, and depending on the design/construction of the anemometer, they both could have one side of the DC output grounded. 

In the case of the Davis unit, an external 5V supply could have its "common" grounded, either on purpose or by accident.

Remember, also, that "common" is not necessarily "ground".  For instance, if the devices were mounted on the same metal pole that was insulated from the ground - but both devices had their "power supply negative" connected to the metal pole, that could be a problem - depending on design.

The point is - the manufacturers don't have any control over how devices are physically mounted or connected.  Anything that might have it's "power supply common" exposed, must be carefully considered.  And "power supply common exposed" is a possible characteristic of anything that has an external power supply.

Of course, the internals of many devices like these are proprietary - so we can only judge by experience.

Offline dalecoy

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Re: Another VP2 ultrasonic anemometer option
« Reply #88 on: October 29, 2018, 11:37:50 PM »
I was wondering if the wind direction could be implemented with a digital potentiometer. It is a "pot on a chip" and behaves just like a mechanical potentiometer.

Here is an Analog Devices app note: https://www.analog.com/media/en/technical-documentation/application-notes/AN-1121.pdf


That might work.  I don't have any experience with that device, and I read the application note (twice).  The examples in the application note show it performing like a potentiometer, with either pushbuttons (up and down) or an "incremental digital encoder" (e.g., a counter) stepping up and down. 

I could not tell from the application note what happens at the end-points.  The mechanical potentiometer in the Davis anemometer obviously goes around completely (transitions from maximum resistance to zero resistance as it passes through "north"). 

What happens with the digital potentiometer when the "count" is at maximum, and then is told to go "up"????

Offline rdsman

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Re: Another VP2 ultrasonic anemometer option
« Reply #89 on: October 30, 2018, 06:41:02 AM »
Quote
What happens with the digital potentiometer when the "count" is at maximum, and then is told to go "up"????

It depends on which part you select.  The application note doesn't really explain the operation that well.  However from a typical spec sheet:

"Additional clock pulses on the CLK pin are ignored when the wiper is at either the 00H position or the 7FH position."  This simulates the mechanical stops in a regular pot.

I have used digital pots in many designs.  Most of mine have been processor controlled using either I2C or SPI interface.  Either of these methods would overcome the "stops" because you can constantly write a completely new value.

Ray

Offline miraculon

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Re: Another VP2 ultrasonic anemometer option
« Reply #90 on: October 30, 2018, 08:19:51 AM »
Here is ADI's selection table for 20K digi pots:

https://www.analog.com/en/parametricsearch/10982#/p4516=20%20kOhms

This isn't necessarily what this ultrasonic anemometer is using, but it might give further insight.

Note the various interfaces available, as rdsman has noted.

Greg H.


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Offline dalecoy

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Re: Another VP2 ultrasonic anemometer option
« Reply #91 on: October 30, 2018, 09:46:06 AM »
I have used digital pots in many designs.  Most of mine have been processor controlled using either I2C or SPI interface.  Either of these methods would overcome the "stops" because you can constantly write a completely new value.

Thanks, rdsman and miraculon. 

Offline Stefan

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Re: Another VP2 ultrasonic anemometer option
« Reply #92 on: October 31, 2018, 05:46:00 AM »
Hi everyone.
After my discussion with our engineer.
It's not just a simply voltage output.
ISS will supply a 3V pulse to PIN:OE, then anemometer feedback a voltage from 0-3VDC corresponding to 3~359°.
Attached is photo I measure.
Let me explain you how I can keep measure this voltage:
I wired OE terminal to an internal power supply on our circuit board where a 3.3VDC voltage is supplied.
The wind direction is round 180°,I measure voltage 1.536V.

By the way, we didn't recur malfunction dendrite mentioned, so we decided to send him another set which can be powered by our solar panel or 5VDC.
We will recall his WDS2DVSE and test it on our wireless VP2.
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Offline Stefan

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Re: Another VP2 ultrasonic anemometer option
« Reply #93 on: October 31, 2018, 05:58:31 AM »
ISS send this 3V voltage pluse every three second.
That means ISS sample every 3 s, it's written in VP2 user manual.
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Offline dendrite

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Re: Another VP2 ultrasonic anemometer option
« Reply #94 on: November 06, 2018, 09:40:29 AM »
Looks like Ryan has the HongYuv HY-WDC2DVSE ultrasonic anemometer for sale on his site now.

https://www.scaledinstruments.com/shop/davis-instruments/hongyuv-hy-wdc2dvse-ultrasonic-anemometer-for-vantage-pro2/

That's the solar powered one with similar specs to the Davis anemometer and no heater option. It looks like it comes with all of the hardware minus the batteries though.

Offline rwilhour

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Re: Another VP2 ultrasonic anemometer option
« Reply #95 on: November 06, 2018, 12:55:20 PM »
Looks like Ryan has the HongYuv HY-WDC2DVSE ultrasonic anemometer for sale on his site now.

https://www.scaledinstruments.com/shop/davis-instruments/hongyuv-hy-wdc2dvse-ultrasonic-anemometer-for-vantage-pro2/

That's the solar powered one with similar specs to the Davis anemometer and no heater option. It looks like it comes with all of the hardware minus the batteries though.

I have five units with heater, but I have not had time to post them yet.  Overall selling price is higher than I anticipated, I got whacked by a 25% import tariff which has been imposed on certain imported Chinese goods (ouch).

Offline Stefan

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Re: Another VP2 ultrasonic anemometer option
« Reply #96 on: December 11, 2018, 01:57:07 AM »
Looks like Ryan has the HongYuv HY-WDC2DVSE ultrasonic anemometer for sale on his site now.

https://www.scaledinstruments.com/shop/davis-instruments/hongyuv-hy-wdc2dvse-ultrasonic-anemometer-for-vantage-pro2/

That's the solar powered one with similar specs to the Davis anemometer and no heater option. It looks like it comes with all of the hardware minus the batteries though.

I believe the new one we sent to you works well?
Looking forward to your feedback.
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Offline spweather

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Re: Another VP2 ultrasonic anemometer option
« Reply #97 on: March 10, 2019, 10:20:36 PM »
dendrite,

Whats the status of your testing? Should I infer from the lack of updates it's not going well?

I would like to get one of these units, with heater, if they work out as a direct replacement for the Davis anemometer in a VP2.

Had my anemometer freeze up from frozen rain again last night, it did thaw out this morning though.

Dennis
Regards,
Dennis

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Offline Stefan

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Re: Another VP2 ultrasonic anemometer option
« Reply #98 on: March 10, 2019, 11:18:21 PM »
Hi Dennis,
Since my last email with Dentrite on 10th,Jan,2019. I tried to contact him serveral times by email without success.
It's plug and play with heating function make it free from stopping working under snowy days.(you have to supply extra 12-24VDC for heating).
We guarantee you 100% refund if it don't work for you.
You can make further contact to us at stefan@hongyuv.com.
 
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Offline fkapp

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Re: Another VP2 ultrasonic anemometer option
« Reply #99 on: December 07, 2019, 12:16:10 PM »
Did you get this working and how is is running?

 

anything