Author Topic: The Warming Climate  (Read 17287 times)

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Offline WXman

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Re: The Warming Climate
« Reply #300 on: April 19, 2017, 12:18:23 PM »
Before automobiles roamed highways and sat in traffic jams, before the population was growing out of control, before city landscapes dominated and farming was the major occupation of Americans... before all of this we set most of the high temperature records that are on the books in the Ohio Valley region of the U.S. 

This is one of the most heavily populated areas of the entire nation, and yet our "wild" weather of today doesn't rival the things of a century or more ago.

All of this makes sense when you understand that the climate is a cycle, with ebbs and flows and ups and downs and human activity doesn't have nearly the impact on it that liberals will tell you that it does.  Furthermore, scientific fact tells us that matter cannot be destroyed or created, and human beings cannot therefore destroy something (the Earth) which we had no power to create in the first place.

We as a society should be good stewards of the planet we live on.  That is true.  But it's also true that we worry WAY too much and we need to relax.  Afterall, we DO have to live here.  And if burning coal is what it takes to keep my family warm, by all means let's burn that coal.
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Offline Jáchym

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Re: The Warming Climate
« Reply #301 on: April 19, 2017, 12:30:37 PM »
Oh not again....

Quote
human beings cannot therefore destroy something (the Earth) which we had no power to create in the first place

like seriously? Now, I am not going to argue about global warming, we both have our own views about that, but what you wrote about not being able to destroy something we did not create is IMHO nonsense.

And we definitely don´t destroy the planet just by releasing GHGs or burning coal. It is true that we might not destroy the actual planet as such, but we can very easily make it totally inhabitable Im sure you will agree with me on that. So saying we need to relax and not worry about burning fossil fuels, destroying rainforests, making organisms extinct etc etc. is maybe ok in short-term, but if you care at least a little bit about future generations then you would never say such thing.

Offline Jáchym

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Re: The Warming Climate
« Reply #302 on: April 19, 2017, 12:32:23 PM »

Offline waiukuweather

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Re: The Warming Climate
« Reply #303 on: April 19, 2017, 03:30:29 PM »
Quote
All of this makes sense when you understand that the climate is a cycle, with ebbs and flows and ups
but no one said it does not do that
all climate scientists know that

think of global warming as an offset
so that then the those ups and downs get shifted up a bit on the Y axis
(which then means the previous ups are now getting beaten)

Offline WXman

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Re: The Warming Climate
« Reply #304 on: April 20, 2017, 01:52:37 PM »
Oh not again....

Quote
human beings cannot therefore destroy something (the Earth) which we had no power to create in the first place

like seriously? Now, I am not going to argue about global warming, we both have our own views about that, but what you wrote about not being able to destroy something we did not create is IMHO nonsense.

And we definitely don´t destroy the planet just by releasing GHGs or burning coal. It is true that we might not destroy the actual planet as such, but we can very easily make it totally inhabitable Im sure you will agree with me on that. So saying we need to relax and not worry about burning fossil fuels, destroying rainforests, making organisms extinct etc etc. is maybe ok in short-term, but if you care at least a little bit about future generations then you would never say such thing.

Yes, very much again.

Generations before us said the same things you're saying.  Hundreds of years ago, they were saying the same thing you're saying now.  Where is this carnage?

In the 1970s the headlines read "ICE AGE!".  In the 1990s it was "GLOBAL WARMING!".  By the 2000s neither was panning out so now it's "CLIMATE CHANGE!" because that term covers all bases and technically they cannot be wrong when they scream that.

Like I said, should we be good stewards of the planet?  Yes.  I stated that.  But the fact is, the earth is not going to cease to exist because human beings are trying to live on it.  In fact, it was created FOR human beings to live upon, and we were granted the spot at the top of the chain.

We need to relax and stop worrying ourselves sick everytime somebody lights up a coal burning stove.  My pickup truck achieved 8.8 miles per gallon on it's last tank.  But, that's the vehicle I need to get my work done after hours, so I don't worry about it.  Life will go on...  like it has for centuries.
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Offline WXman

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Re: The Warming Climate
« Reply #305 on: April 20, 2017, 01:56:59 PM »
Quote
All of this makes sense when you understand that the climate is a cycle, with ebbs and flows and ups
but no one said it does not do that
all climate scientists know that

think of global warming as an offset
so that then the those ups and downs get shifted up a bit on the Y axis
(which then means the previous ups are now getting beaten)

But they have.  They are teaching our school children that we are destroying the planet, and the heat is building and it'll never go back to "normal" again.

It's 100% false.  Or, in my field, we call it "crap science".

Explain to me how a person can take 125 years of reliable weather records, and use that to show evidence of roughly 10,000 years of timeline?  Nobody in their right mind would use a 1-2% sample size to explain the whole.

It's crap science, and that's what they are feeding our children today.  I've studied under some of the finest professors of climatology around, and I'm thankful that I can avoid the trap that the media is trying to set.
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Offline Jáchym

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Re: The Warming Climate
« Reply #306 on: April 20, 2017, 01:58:29 PM »
I didnt say Earth was going to be destroyed by us (though Im 100% if we wanted to, we would manage even that these days...), but there is a fundamental difference between Earth being destroyed as such (the actual planet) and Earth being destroyed in the sense of becoming inhabitable.

This could be done in many ways, obviously the fastest would be some nuclear bomb, in fact not that many would be required... this is of course unlikely, but the fact we are slowly destroying the environment (and Im not talking climate change now), is a fact. Look at the rate of extenction, look at the rate of rainforests disappearing, (ok Im not going to say look at climate change, but I normally would).

My opinion is that it is not a question of if, but rather when. The only thing now is whether we will be so smart that we manage to colonize other planets or habitats before this happens.

Offline Jáchym

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Re: The Warming Climate
« Reply #307 on: April 20, 2017, 01:59:46 PM »
Quote
I've studied under some of the finest professors of climatology around, and I'm thankful that I can avoid the trap that the media is trying to set.

Me too and I was taught something totally different so there is obviously no consensus about this...

Offline waiukuweather

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Re: The Warming Climate
« Reply #308 on: April 20, 2017, 03:21:40 PM »
Ice cores give us a much longer time line than 125 years

Offline ValentineWeather

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Re: The Warming Climate
« Reply #309 on: April 20, 2017, 03:54:02 PM »


But they have.  They are teaching our school children that we are destroying the planet, and the heat is building and it'll never go back to "normal" again.

It's 100% false.  Or, in my field, we call it "crap science".

Explain to me how a person can take 125 years of reliable weather records, and use that to show evidence of roughly 10,000 years of timeline?  Nobody in their right mind would use a 1-2% sample size to explain the whole.

It's crap science, and that's what they are feeding our children today.  I've studied under some of the finest professors of climatology around, and I'm thankful that I can avoid the trap that the media is trying to set.

I'm with you on this. Let’s say even if we are wrong and somehow the small sample size of data is correct and the climate is warming, is it really all that bad?

I say no. Cold, not heat, is the biggest killer. There are many good aspects for the warming globe with some side effects that can't be ignored like low lying flooding but IMO it’s outweighed by the good of a warming planet. Enjoy the warmth now.  Eventually we will go into another ice age according to climate paleontologist, then we really will have something to worry about with potentially millions perishing from famine and cold.
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Offline WheatonRon

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Re: The Warming Climate
« Reply #310 on: April 20, 2017, 04:22:26 PM »


But they have.  They are teaching our school children that we are destroying the planet, and the heat is building and it'll never go back to "normal" again.

It's 100% false.  Or, in my field, we call it "crap science".

Explain to me how a person can take 125 years of reliable weather records, and use that to show evidence of roughly 10,000 years of timeline?  Nobody in their right mind would use a 1-2% sample size to explain the whole.

It's crap science, and that's what they are feeding our children today.  I've studied under some of the finest professors of climatology around, and I'm thankful that I can avoid the trap that the media is trying to set.

I'm with you on this. Let’s say even if we are wrong and somehow the small sample size of data is correct and the climate is warming, is it really all that bad?

I say no. Cold, not heat, is the biggest killer. There are many good aspects for the warming globe with some side effects that can't be ignored like low lying flooding but IMO it’s outweighed by the good of a warming planet. Enjoy the warmth now.  Eventually we will go into another ice age according to climate paleontologist, then we really will have something to worry about with potentially millions perishing from famine and cold.

Well stated by both of you. Wxman--Thanks for reminding me of the warnings about the Ice Age when we (or at least I) was growing up. Forgot about that one!
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Offline waiukuweather

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Re: The Warming Climate
« Reply #311 on: April 20, 2017, 04:36:40 PM »
Climate scientists did not in fact say we were heading
For ice age in the 70 ,a
That has been debunked
And yet deniers still like to bring that one out
Also so now deniers turn it around to say more warmth is better than more cold?.both are not good outcomes

Offline Jáchym

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Re: The Warming Climate
« Reply #312 on: April 20, 2017, 05:35:52 PM »
Its not just about getting warmer...

Pure coincidence? Can you see some trend?
https://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/billions/time-series

And this is just the U.S.

Online Mattk

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Re: The Warming Climate
« Reply #313 on: April 20, 2017, 08:57:00 PM »
Well I know of one particular Bureau of Meteorology that simply deleted the highest temperature ever recorded because it contradicted the theory that temperatures were rising. This being on Jan 3, 1909

These days the headline mongers have a bad habit of trying to make it all sound real: Yes the temperature was the hottest on record ...... since 1952, amazing so you mean its been hotter before 1952  =D>

Many countries have fiddled the maximum temps to make them appear higher than actual but NOAA took this a step further and homogenized both the minimum and maximum trying to increase the numbers game even further. Much of the temperature increase conspirators must live in cities and of course cities are hotter than 100 years ago, bitumen, high rise, air conditioners, vehicles most trees are gone and not a fluctuating cow in sight  :grin:.     

Offline waiukuweather

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Re: The Warming Climate
« Reply #314 on: April 20, 2017, 10:16:58 PM »
You will always get outliers in the data
And yes 100 years ago there was setups in the weather
Pattern at the time that ca used very high temperatures
Those setups Will hhappen again
The thing is ,more high temperature records are being
Broken than low temperature records around the world by a difference that is greater than natural variability explains

Online Mattk

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Re: The Warming Climate
« Reply #315 on: April 21, 2017, 03:51:48 AM »
Natural variability might be able to be explained but there is absolutely nothing natural when met offices start diddling the data and start changing records based on stations that are 1000's of km apart just to achieve the numbers they want or need, there is absolutely nothing natural with homogenizing.

Offline waiukuweather

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Re: The Warming Climate
« Reply #316 on: April 21, 2017, 04:46:05 AM »
They make it public the reasons for any changes to the data and why ( following accepted guidelines and procedures)
There is no conspiracy here.


Offline Jáchym

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Re: The Warming Climate
« Reply #317 on: April 21, 2017, 05:56:49 AM »
Not to mention the fact that ok, I know there were some data manipulation, but so what... this is definitely not the case of all these studies, you will unfortunately always have people who do sloppy work, change data to "suit" their needs etc. But that doesnt mean all these studies are wrong.

There is no reason why all the studies should be biased. Yes there are of course people/organizations for whom it might be beneficial if global warming was proven or supported by a study, however! There are also countless companies/people for whom quite the opposite is advantageous and they will do everything they can to have studies that deny global warming.

The conclusion therefore is that you will have both good and bad studies for both sides and so you can look at them equally. And when you do so, you will find that the number of studies supporting global warming by far outnumbers the ones that deny it.

And I want to emphasize one thing again and Ive said it here countless times already. I am NOT saying humans are responsible for global warming. I am always just saying that we dont know. Thats the problem. We dont know. This means that I disagree with those who simply say - no. What I therefore want is have people studying this and most importantly - take preventive measures because since we dont know one of the possibilities is obviously that it is so and in such case, if we dont do anything now, it might be too late.

This is the exact same principle as insurance. You pay insurance because you dont know whats gonna happen. And maybe nothing will happen, in which case good for you and I guess you wont regret spending the money for the insurance. And in case something does happen, you will be grateful for deciding to pay for it. Or think of making backups. It takes you time, it might cost you some money to do it, but you still do it, simply because you dont know if something is going to happen to your HDD and you want to make sure you are ok if there is a problem. It might then later turn out that you never needed the backup, but you probably wont regret it either and you wont regret the money/time invested to make the backup. You have to look at global warming as not a fact, but a possibility. The undeniable truth is that we currently dont know. No-one knows for sure because it is so complicated. Thats why I disagree with saying - we dont have a problem, we dont need to do anything, lets just ignore this. No, the fact is we MIGHT have a problem and therefore we have to act in such a way that in case it turns out we do, the consequences are as little as possible.

Online Mattk

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Re: The Warming Climate
« Reply #318 on: April 21, 2017, 06:29:24 AM »
They make it public the reasons for any changes to the data and why ( following accepted guidelines and procedures)
There is no conspiracy here.

Just excuses  :lol:

Online Mattk

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Re: The Warming Climate
« Reply #319 on: April 21, 2017, 06:41:49 AM »
There is a future for climate scientists  :grin:

Offline Jáchym

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Re: The Warming Climate
« Reply #320 on: April 21, 2017, 06:57:57 AM »
Read my post, I never said there is global warming. I said we dont know and a smart thing to do is therefore take precautious measures until we are certain, just in case. I would never think anything bad about a person who thinks global warming is not caused by humans. I think it is but thats just my opinion. The only think we know for sure now is that we dont know :D So until we know, we should be cautious and prepare for both alternatives. If someone says I dont care, I think it is not happening and if it actually turns out it is and we are screwed, well too bad - in this case I will say that such person is just dumb, or total ignorant (and I dont mean anyone in particular now). I have nothing against people who deny global warming, I disagree with them, but I respect their opinion because I know that I also cannot say 100% they are wrong. Just like they cant say I am wrong - we are back to the fact this is something no-one currently knows and therefore it has to be studied further and we have to take action and prepare for both possibilities. Thats how a smart person thinks.

Online Mattk

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Re: The Warming Climate
« Reply #321 on: April 21, 2017, 07:09:39 AM »
So if we don't know then why are we fiddling the data to make it look like we do? We have to stop auditing data recorded yesterday to agree with the perceptions some want tomorrow. Climate scientists need to stop stooping to those that pay their salaries otherwise the data in due course will become absolutely useless for anything. 
 

Offline Jáchym

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Re: The Warming Climate
« Reply #322 on: April 21, 2017, 07:15:24 AM »
So you think 100% of all that has ever been said against global warming is verified and accurate?

Of course you will always have a few problematic or biased studies, thats just unavoidable in any field of science due to various reasons, but that in no way means everything is wrong.

Offline weatherc

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Re: The Warming Climate
« Reply #323 on: April 21, 2017, 07:48:09 AM »
Just a couple of €urocents ;)

- Are there any proof about that "met office sensors" are the accurate ones? No. If yes, then real data about it, please. Just saying they are accurate are no proof about it.
- Was the sensors 100 years ago as accurate as nowdays? Most probably no.
- Are todays values measured with same sensors as say at 100 years ago? No. Any data whats used for comparing should be collected in exactly same way for whole the period. => All data can be sent to junk-bin immedately as data with recent sensors can NOT be compared to data from 100 years ago.
- Say there is a measuring station in the middle of a city (there are lots of theese). Was there a similar city 100 years ago? No. Why in heck is this station then still collecting data as the condiotions are not the same as 100 years ago.
This list could be continued endless....

Offline ValentineWeather

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Re: The Warming Climate
« Reply #324 on: April 21, 2017, 08:04:06 AM »
There has been some question to sensor accuracy with the ASOS stations. They tend to run warmer than non ASOS stations. Then again it could be just plain poor siting which has been pointed out by many skeptics including me.
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