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Weather Related Organizations => CWOP Forum => Topic started by: DRoberts on December 25, 2018, 03:16:51 PM

Title: CWOP: To join or not? Issues I will face?
Post by: DRoberts on December 25, 2018, 03:16:51 PM
I have had my VP2+ operational since May this year and for Christmas I got a WiFi Logger. Installed smoothly and without any problems. Great device!

I established a WU acct and now my data is available online. However, I would like to join CWOP. Our local CoCoRaHS coordinator tells me that by doing so my data would be available to their NWS office.

1. Is CWOP difficult to get approval for?
2. Am I going to run into technical problems trying to maintain an approved site?
3. What is your assessment of CWOP? Impressions?
4. Anything else I should be aware of?

Please pardon my wording on any of the above questions if I sound like I don't know much on the subject because I don't. I am looking for information.

Thanks in advance, members, for any help you can give.

Take care

David

Title: Re: CWOP: To join or not? Issues I will face?
Post by: CW2274 on December 25, 2018, 03:39:01 PM
Read up. Certainly more reliable than WU.
http://www.wxqa.com/
Title: Re: CWOP: To join or not? Issues I will face?
Post by: PaulMy on December 25, 2018, 04:05:00 PM
By all means sign up.  It wasn't the easiest I've ever done but not that complicated.  Just follow the instructions, and be patient for a day or 2.


Enjoy,
Paul
Title: Re: CWOP: To join or not? Issues I will face?
Post by: DRoberts on December 25, 2018, 04:09:23 PM
I feel like I have some accurate data to share. I am the only CoCoRaHS observer in the county, 1000 sq mi, and the only other CWOP site is about 30 miles west.

Glad to hear I am not totally out of my mind considering it.

Thanks
Title: Re: CWOP: To join or not? Issues I will face?
Post by: ocala on December 25, 2018, 05:01:49 PM
David you will enjoy it. For one it's more accurate then your Davis gauge. I use the coco data as the official measurement for the  station.
Two, they keep a running total of your data if you don't enter it into your weather software.
And three as you mentioned the NWS uses your data.
Title: Re: CWOP: To join or not? Issues I will face?
Post by: Randall Kayfes on January 04, 2019, 10:26:58 AM
By joining CWOP I found several things became possible:


Yes you can do all the above through WeatherUnderground but the wind gust error which has not been fixed in over ten years is unacceptable to me.
Yes you can do all the above through Davis Weatherlink 2 but the whole sign in thing irritates some people (not me).

By the way I do contribute my data to both Davis and WU as well as CWOP

As a little side note I had a coworker ask me why I even owned a Personal Weather Station (PWS). 
I told him I enjoy having the weather data for my area not downtown some 30 miles away.
He then said I have this really cool weather app on my phone and it tells the weather for right here.
I asked to show me the weather app and told him the weather app says it's data is coming from the NWS DW4959 right?
He said yes - so I don't need your PWS! I told him DW 4959 was my weather station so he apparently did need my Weather Station.
As an apology gesture and thanks for sharing my data, he bought the coffee for the day  :lol:

Randall
Title: Re: CWOP: To join or not? Issues I will face?
Post by: PaulMy on January 04, 2019, 10:49:46 AM
Quote
As an apology gesture and thanks for sharing my data, he bought the coffee for the day  (http://www.wxforum.net/Smileys/default/icon_lol.gif)
Well done Randall, and I hope it was a double-double...
Quote
Yes you can do all the above through Davis Weatherlink 2 but the whole sign in thing irritates some people (not me).
What place on the map can I find you?  Lots in Marana..

 
Enjoy,
Paul
Title: Re: CWOP: To join or not? Issues I will face?
Post by: Randall Kayfes on January 04, 2019, 01:18:37 PM
Paul, on the WeatherLink map try a search for Starr Ridge, Tucson Estates, AZ... that should get you there.

Randall
Title: Re: CWOP: To join or not? Issues I will face?
Post by: ValentineWeather on January 04, 2019, 02:55:41 PM
From WIKI
A CWOP home weather station. The mast supports a wind vane and anemometer, while the rain gauge and other sensors are installed near ground level.
The Citizen Weather Observer Program (CWOP) is a network of privately owned electronic weather stations concentrated in the United States but also located in over 150 countries. Network participation allows volunteers with computerized weather stations to send automated surface weather observations to the National Weather Service (NWS) by way of the Meteorological Assimilation Data Ingest System (MADIS). This data is then used by the Rapid Refresh (RAP) forecast model to produce short-term forecasts (3 to 12 hours into the future) of conditions across the contiguous United States. Observations are also redistributed to the public.

By all means, send data to CWOP. It's my first choice WU is just an afterthought being I have a personal website.
Title: Re: CWOP: To join or not? Issues I will face?
Post by: DRoberts on January 04, 2019, 03:34:12 PM
Thanks, everyone who has replied. I will have to wait until the govt shut down is resolved before I can join, but I think I will.
Title: Re: CWOP: To join or not? Issues I will face?
Post by: PaulMy on January 04, 2019, 03:49:26 PM
@DRoberts +1 on recommending to upload to CWOP.

@Randall
Quote
Paul, on the WeatherLink map try a search for Starr Ridge, Tucson Estates, AZ... that should get you there.
Found you...  and also from that just found a new embed full screen being added to weatherlink.com (maybe not new as I may have missed it)

Enjoy,
Paul
Title: Re: CWOP: To join or not? Issues I will face?
Post by: DRoberts on January 30, 2019, 10:16:04 PM
Well, after the government shut down I started the process of joining CWOP. Had some trouble w/ email, but I hope that is worked out. My location is marked on findu and when I click on the marker I see data from my PWS.

Anyone tell me what is next or what I should be waiting for from CWOP?

Thanks for the information I found on here.

Title: Re: CWOP: To join or not? Issues I will face?
Post by: ValentineWeather on January 31, 2019, 10:09:40 AM
Do you show on mesowest yet?
https://mesowest.utah.edu/cgi-bin/droman/mesomap.cgi?lat=39.1863&lon=-100.70333&radius=150&rawsflag=290&site=KOIN&unit=0&time=LOCAL&product=&year1=2014&month1=2&day1=14&hour1=08&currTimeChecked=
Title: Re: CWOP: To join or not? Issues I will face?
Post by: Jcsf420 on January 31, 2019, 10:40:03 AM
I've been lurking on this thread since it started and must say I've picked up a few things I didn't know I could do with my CWOP station, so thanks!
Just this week my CoCoRaHS rain gauge came in and I was wondering how you post readings to your station? I didn't know that was possible.
Thanks
John
Title: Re: CWOP: To join or not? Issues I will face?
Post by: galfert on January 31, 2019, 10:48:44 AM
Nope not on Mesowest yet. But data is flowing into FindU.
http://www.findu.com/cgi-bin/wxpage.cgi?call=FW4369&last=120
http://www.findu.com/cgi-bin/raw.cgi?call=FW4369

Now that you have registered with CWOP and data is successfully flowing into FindU you need to do more 2 things:
1- Check that your station is correctly showing your location in FindU:
http://www.findu.com/cgi-bin/find.cgi?call=FW4369

2-  send an email to NOAA to be registered to be ingested by MADIS.
Send an email like this:

Quote
To: cwop-support@noaa.gov
Hello,
This is my request to be registered for CWOP for my data to flow to NOAA. I've checked my FindU position location and it is correct.

CWOP designator: FW4369
Email: <your email address>

Thanks,
<your name>
Then you need to wait a day or sometimes a few days depending on when MADIS updates its database. Then you'll show up on Mesowest and Gladstonefamily...etc.
https://weather.gladstonefamily.net/site/F4369

Title: Re: CWOP: To join or not? Issues I will face?
Post by: DRoberts on January 31, 2019, 12:44:31 PM
Do you show on mesowest yet?
https://mesowest.utah.edu/cgi-bin/droman/mesomap.cgi?lat=39.1863&lon=-100.70333&radius=150&rawsflag=290&site=KOIN&unit=0&time=LOCAL&product=&year1=2014&month1=2&day1=14&hour1=08&currTimeChecked=

Thanks, Randy. Not yet.
Title: Re: CWOP: To join or not? Issues I will face?
Post by: DRoberts on January 31, 2019, 12:47:49 PM
Nope not on Mesowest yet. But data is flowing into FindU.
http://www.findu.com/cgi-bin/wxpage.cgi?call=FW4369&last=120
http://www.findu.com/cgi-bin/raw.cgi?call=FW4369

Now that you have registered with CWOP and data is successfully flowing into FindU you need to do more 2 things:
1- Check that your station is correctly showing your location in FindU:
http://www.findu.com/cgi-bin/find.cgi?call=FW4369

2-  send an email to NOAA to be registered to be ingested by MADIS.
Send an email like this:

Quote
To: support-cwop@noaa.gov
Hello,
This is my request to be registered for CWOP for my data to flow to NOAA. I've checked my FindU position location and it is correct.

CWOP designator: FW4369
Email: <your email address>

Thanks,
<your name>
Then you need to wait a day or sometimes a few days depending on when MADIS updates its database. Then you'll show up on Mesowest and Gladstonefamily...etc.
https://weather.gladstonefamily.net/site/F4369

Thanks. I have read your post and I have done all these steps; so, I guess I am waiting. Appreciate your detailed answer very much.

Another question: Is CWOP itself in good shape? That is, is it in any danger of going bust? I hope not.
Title: Re: CWOP: To join or not? Issues I will face?
Post by: galfert on January 31, 2019, 01:11:12 PM
Another question: Is CWOP itself in good shape? That is, is it in any danger of going bust? I hope not.

Good question. It certainly does not exude much confidence in how dated both FindU and Gladstonefamily look. And the fact that they have not been updated in a number of years. Lots of dead links in both sites. I think though the APRS network which is external and separate is strong. Also from time to time you'll notice Gladstonefamily gives out some crazy analysis like it glitches up or something. That seems to happen at least once a year for a number of days. To me it feels like a ghost ship with nobody at the helm and it just seems to find its course despite hitting some rocks along the way. There is no response from the people that set these sites and services in action. I think that NOAA NWS will continue to run MADIS and Mesowest will continue to run well by The University of Utah. It is the FindU servers and the Gladstonefamily analysis servers that worry me. A lot of work went into both FindU and Gladstonefamily by different people. I think they should be commended for the hard work but I think that it might be time for them to hand over the management to a new team to improve the look of the sites and to fix typos and dead links and update the information as there is some info that is not 100% accurate anymore. Who knows maybe someday someone might separately create a new service that also ties into NWS and MADIS.

But regardless I'd say it only helps to continue to use and support these services. Its the best we've got. But as a backup I send my data to other places and I also back it up to SQL so if one day I can send historical data somewhere or if I decide to use some new software I have all my data.

Title: Re: CWOP: To join or not? Issues I will face?
Post by: DRoberts on January 31, 2019, 02:15:10 PM
galfert, Thanks for the detailed opinion/analysis.

Title: Re: CWOP: To join or not? Issues I will face?
Post by: DRoberts on February 01, 2019, 06:23:17 PM
Gentlepeople,

Attached is a photo that shows where FindU has placed my PWS and the blue dot is the actual location. The difference is 120 feet.

 [ You are not allowed to view attachments ]

Question:

Should I go through the process of correcting this difference or call it good. 

Appreciate a reply. Take care.
Title: Re: CWOP: To join or not? Issues I will face?
Post by: galfert on February 01, 2019, 06:37:49 PM
Post a screenshot of your WiFi Logger location configuration. I discovered a bug in the Meteobridge conversion of lat/lon to the Degrees Minutes Decimal Minutes that CWOP uses. I reported the bug and it was fixed with the next update. If I can see what you entered in for location into your WiFi Logger I can do the conversion and see if it too suffers from a conversion error or if you just need to enter in a different location into the WiFi Logger that would be more accurate.

Essentially where you show up on FindU is a result of your software. In this case the WiFi Logger. You can see the conversion to DM.m that the WiFi logger has done by looking at your FindU Raw Data:
FW4369>APRS,TCPXX*,qAX,CWOP-5:@012315z3944.64N/09912.96W_163/008g009t051r000p000P000h37b10186.WFL

Everything between the z and the _ is your DM.m location: 3944.64N/09912.96W

And please don't call it LORAN. It isn't LORAN. That is one of the many errors with the CWOP websites. It is just DM.m or "Degrees Minutes Decimal Minutes."

If anyone is interested in my back story regarding this look here:
https://www.wxforum.net/index.php?topic=35144.0

Title: Re: CWOP: To join or not? Issues I will face?
Post by: DRoberts on February 01, 2019, 07:58:22 PM
galfert, here is the location:

 [ You are not allowed to view attachments ]

Can't help but say I am not looking forward to get this changed, having read some horror stories about making changes/correction on CWOP. Hope I am wrong.  :-)

Your help appreciated.
Title: Re: CWOP: To join or not? Issues I will face?
Post by: galfert on February 01, 2019, 09:32:34 PM
Good news. The WiFi Logger does not have a conversion bug.

But there is a reason for the discrepancy you are seeing in your location. The problem is that you have entered your location into the WiFi Logger with not enough Degrees Decimal precision. The Blue location you have marked is not at 39.744/-99.216. Because that coordinate location is actually this:

 [ You are not allowed to view attachments ]

So the real coordinates for the Blue dot you marked requires more precision.
Your real location is 39.744260 / - 99.215656

That translates to this:

 [ You are not allowed to view attachments ]

Which then when converted to DM.m that CWOP uses will then convert to: 3944.66 / -9912.94

As you can see from the new numbers you'll end up a bit more North and a bit more East which will land you on the Blue dot or pretty darn close.

So all you have to do is enter in 39.744260 / - 99.215656 for you location into the WiFi Logger and then check the FindU map again. If you can't enter in more digits than you already have then that is a bad limitation of the WiFi Logger. Unless the manufacturer of the WiFi Logger issues and update for this added precision then you are stuck with what you've got.  So enter in as many digits as you can.

Let us know how it goes

Title: Re: CWOP: To join or not? Issues I will face?
Post by: ValentineWeather on February 01, 2019, 10:07:32 PM
DRoberts you are live now I see. Save this custom link address will take you home every time.

https://mesowest.utah.edu/cgi-bin/droman/mesomap.cgi?lat=39.774&lon=-99.21633&radius=150&rawsflag=290&site=F4369&unit=0&time=LOCAL&product=&year1=2014&month1=2&day1=14&hour1=08&currTimeChecked=
Title: Re: CWOP: To join or not? Issues I will face?
Post by: galfert on February 01, 2019, 10:41:34 PM
Your registered location with CWOP also needs updating. Send them an email cwop-support@noaa.gov with your more precise Degrees Decimal of 39.744260 / -99.215656.

Currently shows:
Registered Location
Latitude: 39° 44' 38" N (deg min sec), 39.7440° (decimal), 3944.64N (LORAN)
Longitude: 99° 12' 58" W (deg min sec), -99.2160° (decimal), 09912.96W (LORAN)

https://weather.gladstonefamily.net/site/F4369
Title: Re: CWOP: To join or not? Issues I will face?
Post by: galfert on February 02, 2019, 03:44:12 AM
Your CWOP update interval is set to every 15 minutes. Nothing wrong with that but you can increase it to every 5 minutes if you want. Doing so gives your data more granularity and is more current for times when weather is changing quickly.
Title: Re: CWOP: To join or not? Issues I will face?
Post by: DRoberts on February 02, 2019, 10:12:14 AM

 [ You are not allowed to view attachments ]

I have made the correction on location, and looking at the map findu it appears much closer. SEE PHOTO. I also sent a reply email notifying them of the correction.

Changed update interval from 15 to 5 minutes, which makes more sense.

Hope these changes iron out with CWOP. If it doesn't I will likely be asking for further help.

 Thanks galfert for your time and effort in this. Could not have done it w/o your attention to detail.

Appreciate all help.

DRoberts

Title: Re: CWOP: To join or not? Issues I will face?
Post by: galfert on February 02, 2019, 10:42:08 AM
Excellent. Looks good.

How many decimal places did WiFi Logger let you enter for your location?
Title: Re: CWOP: To join or not? Issues I will face?
Post by: DRoberts on February 02, 2019, 10:45:11 AM
6 decimal places.

Don't know why I did not do that first time.

Map shows the move; hope the change message email gets through to them.

Foggy day here.
Title: Re: CWOP: To join or not? Issues I will face?
Post by: gwminor48 on February 06, 2019, 07:59:13 PM
Quote
To: support-cwop@noaa.gov
Hello,
This is my request to be registered for CWOP for my data to flow to NOAA. I've checked my FindU position location and it is correct.

CWOP designator: FW4369
Email: <your email address>

Thanks,
<your name>
Then you need to wait a day or sometimes a few days depending on when MADIS updates its database. Then you'll show up on Mesowest and Gladstonefamily...etc.
https://weather.gladstonefamily.net/site/F4369
[/quote]

This is probably an old post but I tried support-cwop@noaa.gov and got an error. I have since tried cwop-support@noaa.gov and didn't get an error so far.
Title: Re: CWOP: To join or not? Issues I will face?
Post by: galfert on February 06, 2019, 08:45:09 PM
This is probably an old post but I tried support-cwop@noaa.gov and got an error. I have since tried cwop-support@noaa.gov and didn't get an error so far.

Thanks for catching that. That was my mistake. I've corrected the original post in this thread to have the correct email address.
Title: Re: CWOP: To join or not? Issues I will face?
Post by: DRoberts on February 06, 2019, 11:12:34 PM
Joined CWOP and as far as I can tell my data is streaming to NOAA. Everything looks good to me. (If you see a problem, let me know.  :grin:)

When I was young, I kept daily records of my home weather daily in a book, and I subscribed to the daily mailed weather maps (remember those?) from the Weather Bureau (that's an old term). Never dreamed I would be able to own a weather station like the VP2 or that my data would be streamed to NOAA.

I don't have much of a math or engineering mind, but I am enjoying this and my small contribution.

Thanks for your help, everyone. =D&gt;

Title: Re: CWOP: To join or not? Issues I will face?
Post by: galfert on February 07, 2019, 11:15:40 AM
DRoberts,
Everything looks good except one thing.  Your pressure is too high. It looks like your WiFi Logger is sending Sea Level Pressure to CWOP instead of Altimeter Pressure. There are two ways to fix this:

1- Make sure you are on the latest firmware for your WiFi Logger. If this doesn't work then you should contact WiFi Logger support and ask them about making sure that the WiFi Logger properly sends Altimeter Pressure to CWOP instead of Sea Level Pressure. Let them know that the best method to do this is to use LOOP2 and obtain Absolute Pressure (also called Station Pressure) to then calculate Altimeter Pressure for use with CWOP.

2- You could do as some other people do and calibrate your console to Altimeter instead of Sea Level Pressure. Then you end up reporting Altimeter to all online services.*

* It is my personal opinion that option #2 I listed is not as elegant of a solution and think that is a hack solution. I know others on this forum will jump in and debate this argument. It is not my intention to convince anyone to use SLP vs. ALT. This is a heated debate. I have a Meteobridge and it calculates Altimeter but only uses it for CWOP...every other online service gets Sea Level Pressure sent from the Meteobridge. What some people do is they set their console to show Altimeter (that they calibrate as their Relative Pressure) and then they report Altimeter to all services. Or they use a Vantage Vue console (yes its compatible with the VP2 ISS) that knows how to calculate Altimeter (VP2 console doesn't). There are plenty of threads already debating this. I suggest anyone that is interested in knowing more just search this forum for the many threads already debating this. Bottom line is that there are arguments for both points of view. Do whatever you want with your weather station. Use whatever method you prefer. But it really does seem to me like the WiFi Logger is not calculating Altimeter for use with CWOP.

You could also ignore this issue and continue to send Sea Level Pressure to CWOP even though it isn't what they want you to send. It isn't optimal and you do affect your neighbors. Your neighbors may frown upon you for sending SLP to CWOP as you do affect their analysis quality reporting.
Title: Re: CWOP: To join or not? Issues I will face?
Post by: gwminor48 on February 07, 2019, 11:46:08 AM
This is probably an old post but I tried support-cwop@noaa.gov and got an error. I have since tried cwop-support@noaa.gov and didn't get an error so far.

Thanks for catching that. That was my mistake. I've corrected the original post in this thread to have the correct email address.

Thanks @galfert, I'm glad I could do something useful.
Title: Re: CWOP: To join or not? Issues I will face?
Post by: DRoberts on February 07, 2019, 12:52:46 PM
galfert,  It is my understanding that VP2 does not do the altimeter reading. So your 2 option below would be out:

2- You could do as some other people do and calibrate your console to Altimeter instead of Sea Level Pressure. Then you end up reporting Altimeter to all online services.*

I would like to look into your suggestion 1, since it seems best regarding accuracy.  Will try to learn more about how to do this and try it.

Thanks. I knew my pressure reading was high based on comparison w/ other stations nearby.
Title: Re: CWOP: To join or not? Issues I will face?
Post by: galfert on February 07, 2019, 01:14:42 PM
Yes you are correct the VP2 console does not do Altimeter as the Vue console does. But there is nothing stopping you from calibrating your Sea Level Pressure to show what would be Altimeter Pressure. It won't track perfectly as the formula for Altimeter is slightly different than Sea Level Pressure. And I've heard it is very problematic at altitudes above 3,000 feet. So it won't be perfect if you set you VP2 pressure to match Altimeter pressure but its a solution with the minor issues mentioned. And then you end up sending Altimeter to every service and you see this pseudo Altimeter on your console display too. Some people swear by this. I'm not one. I'm just being forthcoming will all the options. I'm sure I'm putting my biased slant on it and making it sound as a terrible option. I can't help it. But if you search this forum for Altimeter vs. Sea Level Pressure you'll get an earful from that other crowd.

So I think you are doing the right thing and trying my Option 1 first.

Actually there is an Option 3. Get rid of the WiFi Logger and try a Meteobridge Nano instead. That will do the Altimeter conversion for CWOP automatically and will use Sea Level Pressure for all other online services reporting. A little more expensive. More powerful yet still very simple to use and has a long track record and is well supported. Using this device also gives you the ability to publish to AmbientWeather.net and then if you have an Amazon Echo device or Google Home you can ask Alexa or Google Assistant by voice to give you your weather data and it will talk back all your station weather data....from anywhere...even from your mobile device by using the app.
https://www.ambientweather.com/amnano.html
(this is a WeatherBridge which is Ambient name for the Meteobridge devices they sell)
Title: Re: CWOP: To join or not? Issues I will face?
Post by: DRoberts on February 07, 2019, 01:46:16 PM
galfert, thanks again.

RE: Option 3....Money tree died due to cold weather. Cannot remember where I buried mayonnaise jars in yard (ground frozen anyway). Just got the WifiLogger as Christmas present.

So, I will go w/ option 1 for now.

Title: Re: CWOP: To join or not? Issues I will face?
Post by: CW2274 on February 07, 2019, 03:34:40 PM
You could do as some other people do and calibrate your console to Altimeter instead of Sea Level Pressure. Then you end up reporting Altimeter to all online services.*

* It is my personal opinion that option #2 I listed is not as elegant of a solution and think that is a hack solution.
Before I got my Vue console, I used this "hack solution" with my VP2 console, and it worked quite well other than very high and low pressure, and I'm at over 2400'. You tout that only CWOP uses the altimeter (oh, btw, don't forget every media outlet in the country) and everyone else doesn't. Who's everyone else? Certainly no one I personally care about, others, no doubt. I even got WU to use my altimeter instead of MSLP, and if that throws off QC here and there, oh well, that's a drop in the bucket compared to all the other crappy data sent in the first place. Besides, I think people relying on others PWS data to compare to ones own is mostly fool's errand as is, simply for the reason I just stated.
If the OP chooses this "hack", he'll certainly not be alone.
Title: Re: CWOP: To join or not? Issues I will face?
Post by: Old Tele man on February 07, 2019, 04:29:50 PM
Yes, it's a "hack solution"...but it's a hack solution that WORKS(*).

CWOP wants expects to see ALT pressure because station ELEVATION is the only (and known) variable that determines the final number, unlike SLP which incorporates mean Temp, RH% and pressure...variables that NOT all CWOP stations present.



(*) I used it for awhile, then switched to a VUE console for 100% solution.
Title: Re: CWOP: To join or not? Issues I will face?
Post by: galfert on February 07, 2019, 04:33:44 PM
CW2274 knew you wouldn't disappoint. Glad to have you join the conversation but let's not turn this into another Altimeter vs Sea Level Pressure discussion. I didn't say that only CWOP uses Altimeter. I said that in the Meteobridge the only online service that gets Altimeter reported is CWOP and then the Meteobridge sends Sea Level Pressure to all other online services.....because that is what those other services have requested and that is how the Meteobridge is designed. You are correct that it isn't only CWOP that uses Altimeter. Many people do as I stated, and yes the news media and airports and who ever else. So yes there are many places where you come across Altimeter Pressure.
Title: Re: CWOP: To join or not? Issues I will face?
Post by: galfert on February 07, 2019, 05:01:57 PM
Well it looks like I got the ball rolling over in the WiFi Logger thread. Hopefully we will have an answer soon regarding doing Altimeter with the WiFi Logger for CWOP.

https://www.wxforum.net/index.php?topic=34312.msg370222#msg370222

UPDATE: It is happening. New update should soon be available for the WiFi Logger to properly send Altimeter to CWOP.
Title: Re: CWOP: To join or not? Issues I will face?
Post by: CW2274 on February 07, 2019, 05:10:01 PM
CW2274 knew you wouldn't disappoint. Glad to have you join the conversation but let's not turn this into another Altimeter vs Sea Level Pressure discussion.
;) Absolutely zero intention of doing so. There's two sides to every story (if not more in this case), just pointing out to the OP that using the altimeter is not a PWS death wish in case he and others didn't want to search forever to help find out why some choose to use what they do.
Title: Re: CWOP: To join or not? Issues I will face?
Post by: ValentineWeather on February 07, 2019, 05:50:00 PM
DRoberts how are you sending data to CWOP? Weatherlink 5.7 and up will do the calculation for you provided you have the correct elevation set.

ALTIMETER SETTING and CWOP APRS
The CWOP program in NOAA prefers to receive altimeter setting data rather than barometric
pressure. This feature in WeatherLink 5.7 automatically calculates the correct altimeter setting
using the user-specified elevation.

Link is here for pdf: https://www.davisinstruments.com/product_documents/weather/app_notes/AN_28-derived-weather-variables.pdf

Title: Re: CWOP: To join or not? Issues I will face?
Post by: CW2274 on February 07, 2019, 05:58:02 PM
DRoberts how are you sending data to CWOP? Weatherlink 5.7 and up will do the calculation for you provided you have the correct elevation set.

ALTIMETER SETTING and CWOP APRS
The CWOP program in NOAA prefers to receive altimeter setting data rather than barometric
pressure. This feature in WeatherLink 5.7 automatically calculates the correct altimeter setting
using the user-specified elevation.

Link is here for pdf: https://www.davisinstruments.com/product_documents/weather/app_notes/AN_28-derived-weather-variables.pdf
I read this too, only thing is when I used my VP2, I don't recall WL recalculating anything and I never used less than 6.0.0.... If it did, I don't know how in the hell I'd miss that.... #-o
Title: Re: CWOP: To join or not? Issues I will face?
Post by: DRoberts on February 07, 2019, 06:04:25 PM
DRoberts how are you sending data to CWOP? Weatherlink 5.7 and up will do the calculation for you provided you have the correct elevation set.

ALTIMETER SETTING and CWOP APRS
The CWOP program in NOAA prefers to receive altimeter setting data rather than barometric
pressure. This feature in WeatherLink 5.7 automatically calculates the correct altimeter setting
using the user-specified elevation.

Link is here for pdf: https://www.davisinstruments.com/product_documents/weather/app_notes/AN_28-derived-weather-variables.pdf

Using WifiLogger
Title: Re: CWOP: To join or not? Issues I will face?
Post by: ValentineWeather on February 07, 2019, 06:09:29 PM
DRoberts how are you sending data to CWOP? Weatherlink 5.7 and up will do the calculation for you provided you have the correct elevation set.

ALTIMETER SETTING and CWOP APRS
The CWOP program in NOAA prefers to receive altimeter setting data rather than barometric
pressure. This feature in WeatherLink 5.7 automatically calculates the correct altimeter setting
using the user-specified elevation.

Link is here for pdf: https://www.davisinstruments.com/product_documents/weather/app_notes/AN_28-derived-weather-variables.pdf
I read this too, only thing is when I used my VP2, I don't recall WL recalculating anything and I never used less than 6.0.0.... If it did, I don't know how in the hell I'd miss that.... #-o

Should do it automatically but you will need to take Vue off calculate altimeter and put back on slp if you want to test or switch back to VP2 console.

DRoberts how are you sending data to CWOP? Weatherlink 5.7 and up will do the calculation for you provided you have the correct elevation set.

ALTIMETER SETTING and CWOP APRS
The CWOP program in NOAA prefers to receive altimeter setting data rather than barometric
pressure. This feature in WeatherLink 5.7 automatically calculates the correct altimeter setting
using the user-specified elevation.

Link is here for pdf: https://www.davisinstruments.com/product_documents/weather/app_notes/AN_28-derived-weather-variables.pdf

Using WifiLogger

Okay, then not for you. Thanks
Title: Re: CWOP: To join or not? Issues I will face?
Post by: DRoberts on February 07, 2019, 06:11:15 PM
Well it looks like I got the ball rolling over in the WiFi Logger thread. Hopefully we will have an answer soon regarding doing Altimeter with the WiFi Logger for CWOP.

https://www.wxforum.net/index.php?topic=34312.msg370222#msg370222

UPDATE: It is happening. New update should soon be available for the WiFi Logger to properly send Altimeter to CWOP.

I read the other thread. If I understand what is going on here, I just wait for this update before doing anything.
Title: Re: CWOP: To join or not? Issues I will face?
Post by: galfert on February 08, 2019, 07:36:34 AM
WiFi Logger is now capable of sending Altimeter to CWOP. All you have to do is upgrade firmware to 2.12 or greater. As long as your console is calibrated and correct elevation is set you won't have to do anything else. Only CWOP will get Altimeter pressure. Incredible response time turn around by Wojtek.
Title: Re: CWOP: To join or not? Issues I will face?
Post by: DRoberts on February 08, 2019, 09:59:40 AM

Before I do any upgrades to firmware, I need to re-calibrate my barometric pressure. Problem: Not a lot of reference points. Airport AWOS in town 6 miles and another CWOP about 30 miles west. Scattered WU sites around, but I wonder about their accuracy sometimes.

Where should I go to find most accurate barometric pressure? AWOS is altimeter and I want barometer.

Suggestions appreciated.
Title: Re: CWOP: To join or not? Issues I will face?
Post by: galfert on February 08, 2019, 10:49:35 AM
I don't think you need to hold off on the firmware update to calibrate your barometer. I think your barometer is already pretty well calibrated. It may need a tiny bit of correction but probably not much. I've already looked at your barometer SLP calibration and that is how I was able to determine that something funky was going on with the WiFi Logger in respect to CWOP not getting Altimeter rather than a calibration issue. When I said I thought your pressure was too high, I meant that for Altimeter reading it was too high but I felt your station was calibrated correctly for SLP. Besides barometer calibration is something that you do from time to time and reporting to CWOP will help you with the gladstonefamily.net analysis and the MADIS quality control analysis and Mesowest QC.

Mesowest QC
https://mesowest.utah.edu/cgi-bin/droman/regress_database_top.cgi?stn=F4369

A popular place for barometer calibration is to get METAR data from aviationweather.gov:
https://aviationweather.gov/metar/data?ids=KHLC&format=decoded&date=&hours=1
https://aviationweather.gov/metar/data?ids=KHDE&format=decoded&date=&hours=1

Looks like KHLC and KHDE are a good places to start for you.

A couple other good places is to use Mesowest and NOAA MADIS Surface Maps and turn on to see NWS stations that can be more trusted and then after initial calibration then you can also add CWOP stations. I like using these maps because I can see more than one station at a time and often they get more frequent reporting than the typical hourly METAR update.

https://madis-data.ncep.noaa.gov/MadisSurface/

https://mesowest.utah.edu/cgi-bin/droman/mesomap.cgi?state=KS&rawsflag=3

I also like to use Windy.com and turn on so you can see pressure isobars. This helps you know when is a better time to calibrate with KHLC and when not.

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You are already starting to fail MADIS QC with only one green thumbs up instead of two and 71% accuracy. The sooner you update the firmware the better. Worry about final calibration later.

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Title: Re: CWOP: To join or not? Issues I will face?
Post by: DRoberts on February 08, 2019, 11:29:07 AM
Concerned that I am only getting one "thumbs up" on pressure though.

Also noticed dewpoint and wondered if I should be concerned about this as well: [ You are not allowed to view attachments ]

Title: Re: CWOP: To join or not? Issues I will face?
Post by: galfert on February 08, 2019, 11:35:58 AM
Concerned that I am only getting one "thumbs up" on pressure though.

Well, It just updated and getting worse. Now Red X, thumbs down and down to 37% QC. Update Update Update!  :-)

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Title: Re: CWOP: To join or not? Issues I will face?
Post by: galfert on February 08, 2019, 11:44:31 AM
Also noticed dewpoint and wondered if I should be concerned about this as well

Aww Man! You just opened another can of worms! <ahem> <whispers> Davis SHT31 BS </whispers>  #-o  But lets fix Barometer before we deal with Dew Point.
Title: Re: CWOP: To join or not? Issues I will face?
Post by: DRoberts on February 08, 2019, 11:59:21 AM
Sorry. I seem to be able to complicate life.  :grin:

Title: Re: CWOP: To join or not? Issues I will face?
Post by: DRoberts on February 08, 2019, 12:08:08 PM
galfert, I have recalibrated. Was 30.80 and set now to HLC 30.55

Should this do it? How long before I see two thumbs on CWOP? (Will they be sending a Hit Man out here?)
Title: Re: CWOP: To join or not? Issues I will face?
Post by: DRoberts on February 08, 2019, 01:20:02 PM
Believe it or not, but that CWOP QC Analysis can/will change when some other idjot station sends BAD barometer readings...so, it should be taken with a LOT of grains of salt!

Thanks. I can understand that. At the same time, I have been struggling with barometer reading that I knew was too high. Procrastinated too much. Just went ahead and set it to nearest NWS site at HLC (60miles west) when it got so bad today.
Title: Re: CWOP: To join or not? Issues I will face?
Post by: galfert on February 08, 2019, 01:54:10 PM
DRoberts,
I think I've managed to confuse you. Your barometer was not high before. You were probably spot on. I think the part that confused you is when I said your CWOP barometer was too high. That just means that the Altimeter pressure was too high....but this was a fault of the WiFi Logger not your calibration on your console. Now that the WiFi Logger has a new firmware you need to upgrade the firmware to this new version.

Using this menu item in the WiFi Logger:
https://www.wxforum.net/index.php?topic=34312.msg370329#msg370329

After you do that your Altimeter pressure would have been automatically corrected. Only CWOP needs Altimeter pressure and it wasn't being provided.

I mentioned that you later calibrate to KHLC but you need to calibrate the console with the Sea Level Pressure numbers not the first number you see which is Altimeter.
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Also you'll notice that Sea Level Pressure is report in mb and not inHg. Only Altimeter gets reported by the METAR in inHg. So there are two thing you can do to use the METAR Sea Level Pressure.
1- You can temporarily change your console to display the barometer in hPa (hectopascals) which is the same as mb (millibar) that you see in the METAR. I like this method because dealing with hPa for calibration is more precise. Later after you are calibrated if you prefer to see inHg you just switch the console to show you inHg.

2- You can convert what you see in the METAR for Sea Level Pressure to inHg using a number of websites...this one is just as good as any other:
https://www.convertunits.com/from/hpa/to/inhg
This site converts either way back and forth.
Then you can know what inHg to enter into your console for calibration. But this method is less precise.

* It isn't the hPa is more precise it is that when you use hPa consoles tend to use one decimal place for hPa and they use 2 decimal places for inHg and because of the conversion hPa is more precise with just one decimal place. If inHg was used with 3 decimal places well then it would be more precise than hPa that is expressed with 1 decimal place. Forget this technicality. You don't need to know this. This is just here for those that want to know more.  Put another way 0.1 hPa = 0.003 inHg. So if you enact a change of 0.01 inHg then you've actually changed hPa by 0.3. So it is more precise to use hPa.
Title: Re: CWOP: To join or not? Issues I will face?
Post by: galfert on February 08, 2019, 02:16:52 PM
To clarify....When you calibrate your console to Sea Level Pressure then your console has the correct Station Pressure also (you can't see that put it is in there). Then the WiFi Logger will get the correct Station Pressure (also called Absolute Pressure) from the console and then use that to calculate Altimeter for CWOP. You continue to see Sea Level Pressure on your console. Everywhere will have Sea Level Pressure except CWOP will have Altimeter.

By you attempting to manually calibrate CWOP to Altimeter you've messed up Weather Underground that asks for Sea Level Pressure.
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Now there are people that want to see Altimeter everywhere. To do that there is a separate process. You need to zero out your elevation and then calibrate the console to Altimeter. Then everywhere will get pseudo hacked Altimeter. I don't recommend this but it is here for completeness because if I don't saying it someone else will come in here and try and correct me that there is another way to do things. You choose your path. I'm not preaching one way or the other.
Title: Re: CWOP: To join or not? Issues I will face?
Post by: DRoberts on February 08, 2019, 02:33:23 PM

galfert

Appreciate your response. Let me make sure I have this right. (Keep in mind that I have NOT updated firmware and will not until this mess I have made of pressure is corrected)

1. I go to HLC link https://aviationweather.gov/metar/data?ids=KHLC&format=decoded&date=&hours=1 and enter the mb pressure, not inches, on my  console.

Is this all I need to do?

Title: Re: CWOP: To join or not? Issues I will face?
Post by: galfert on February 08, 2019, 02:39:23 PM

galfert

Appreciate your response. Let me make sure I have this right. (Keep in mind that I have NOT updated firmware and will not until this mess I have made of pressure is corrected)

1. I go to HLC link https://aviationweather.gov/metar/data?ids=KHLC&format=decoded&date=&hours=1 and enter the mb pressure, not inches, on my  console.

Is this all I need to do?

Yes enter in the mb pressure into your console but it needs to be the mb in the METAR data to the right that is labeled Sea Level Pressure....not the other mb that is actually Altimeter. But to enter in mb in your console you need make sure it is receiving your input as hectopascals (hPa) not in inHg.
Title: Re: CWOP: To join or not? Issues I will face?
Post by: DRoberts on February 08, 2019, 03:00:58 PM
I entered 1035.5 hPaf

This should get me back to an accurate pressure reading for everyone concerned?

Will it take time for CWOP to show I am two thumbs up?

Any ideas why Dew Point is outside the box?  [ You are not allowed to view attachments ]

(If I could offer you a cup of hot cocoa, I would) :-)
Title: Re: CWOP: To join or not? Issues I will face?
Post by: galfert on February 08, 2019, 03:09:12 PM
I entered 1035.5 hPaf

This should get me back to an accurate pressure reading for everyone concerned?
Yes, but only if you've updated the firmware on the WiFi Logger.

Quote
Will it take time for CWOP to show I am two thumbs up?

Probably a day or two.

Quote
Any ideas why Dew Point is outside the box? [attachment id=1 msg=370363]
Dew Point is something we'll need to track and give it a few days. It is related to your humidity sensor. The good news is that we will have good analysis data from MADIS to determine if you humidity sensor is okay or not.

Quote
(If I could offer you a cup of hot cocoa, I would) :-)
I'm in Florida so sweet tea sounds better.  82F here. :grin:
Title: Re: CWOP: To join or not? Issues I will face?
Post by: CW2274 on February 08, 2019, 03:20:31 PM
This is just here for those that want to know more.  Put another way 0.1 hPa = 0.003 inHg. So if you enact a change of 0.01 inHg then you've actually changed hPa by 0.3. So it is more precise to use hPa.
FYI, WL will allow barometer precision in inches down to a foot, which is three decimal places.
Title: Re: CWOP: To join or not? Issues I will face?
Post by: DRoberts on February 08, 2019, 04:00:36 PM
To all who have responded on this thread

Appreciate all the information and good reading. I have a better understanding of CWOP and my VP2 as a result of your contributions.

Thanks again.

DRoberts
Title: Re: CWOP: To join or not? Issues I will face?
Post by: galfert on February 08, 2019, 04:13:45 PM
if I don't saying it someone else will come in here and try and correct me that there is another way to do things.
Because many times there are, smart-ass. Your sarcasm is getting old, just like you preaching to bow to the CQ gods. Feel free to chase that down the rabbit hole. :roll:

Damned if I do and damned if I don't.  :roll:  I think you meant QC gods...and no I don't bow to them...I just use every bit of information to make an assessment and QC is just one bit of information. I'm not sure what smart-ass or sarcasm you are referring to. If you have a problem with me then report it to the moderators. This is not the proper method to deal with whatever inadequacies you feel may have occurred.
Title: Re: CWOP: To join or not? Issues I will face?
Post by: CW2274 on February 08, 2019, 04:33:32 PM
if I don't saying it someone else will come in here and try and correct me that there is another way to do things.
Because many times there are, smart-ass. Your sarcasm is getting old, just like you preaching to bow to the CQ gods. Feel free to chase that down the rabbit hole. :roll:

I think you meant QC gods..
 
This is not the proper method to deal with whatever inadequacies you feel may have occurred.
:lol: I left it CQ just to see if you'd correct me, knowing exactly what I meant.

Thank you for straightening me out.
Title: Re: CWOP: To join or not? Issues I will face?
Post by: galfert on February 08, 2019, 05:31:12 PM
I've looked at your humidity sensor and I think it is showing signs of needing to be replaced. On days with high 100% humidity you max out at around 86% - 87% RH. It totally flat lines at this max point. I also see signs of wet bias in the mid range. I've seen this behavior before. Acting like the typical SHT31 issue many complain about with Davis stations. This is probably the cause of your Dew Point error. You may want to take a look at this thread for more information on this issue:

https://www.wxforum.net/index.php?topic=34658.0

Also you may consider getting a Psychrometer for better confirmation.


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Time to call in the warranty replacement before your 1st year is up.

This is the part you need: 7346.070
https://www.scaledinstruments.com/shop/davis-instruments/davis-7346-070-pro2-digital-temperature-humidity-sensor-sensiron-sht31/
https://www.scientificsales.com/7346-070-Replacement-Temp-Hum-board-for-Davis-VP2-p/7346.070.htm