Topic: Has anyone used a mini-itx in there weather setup

[wuhu_software]

What I'd like to know is whether this turnkey software box is interesting to anybody, or should I stop with the one I built for myself?

Steve
SoftWx

I am just wondering, based on the energy savings (I pay 7.5 cents per KH), how long would it take to pay for itself?

Thanks.

[wmiler]

I am considering building and selling these. I have approached this with the idea of what I would really like to have. I'd like to know if I'm the only one, or if anyone is interested. I've spec'ed out several options, but this one seems interesting for those wanting to run WIndows. It is entirely fanless and solid state. It would be capable of running applications like WeatherDisplay.

It's a 256MB box running a custom stripped down version of Windows XP. It draws 4  to 5 watts (less than most VIA motherboards) and runs cool. It has USB 2.0 ports, serial port, VGA port, ethernet, keyboard/mouse port, and audio ports. It can be fitted out with an optional internal wireless 802.11 mini card. Dimensions of the case are about 7"x7"x1.4". It has mounting holes for attaching to the back of an LCD monitor. It would NOT include the keyboard, mouse and monitor. This is a complete computer that can run most anything except the heavyweight applications. With an internal 2GB flash disk for hard drive (4GB is an option), power supply and cord, and a legal XP license, I think it would be under $400. Note that XP is about $90 of that, so a linux version would be cheaper by that amount. Internal wireless adds about $50. Here is what it looks like:

What I'd like to know is whether this turnkey software box is interesting to anybody, or should I stop with the one I built for myself?

It's certainly interesting to me, as I have a number of projects such a beast might be useful for. Not looking for Windows on it, however, some flavor of posix un*x is fine

A question though, are any of the USB ports available inside the box? The reason I ask, is you can easily get 8GB thumb drives for storage vs a 2-4GB flash disk, or is the flash disk using a USB interface already?

[tinplate]

Yes, there is an unused USB header inside, as well as an IDE header. So putting in an internal USB thumb drive (Super Talent makes them, they're made to plug right onto the header) is a possibility as is an IDE disk on module. Besides those there is the internal Compact Flash slot, which is what I am using. So there are a lot of options. I've mainly been looking at the default configuration from the standpoint of balancing cost and performance. But if you want to pay more, there are larger storage options. This motherboard can also be put in a standard mini-itx case if you wanted the option of adding a 2.5" drive. But the standard mini-itx cases are a bit of overkill with this board. It runs completely cool - it doesn't even have any heat sinks, so needs no fans, and it requires no external power supply other than the little power adapter/cable (which is not a brick, it's more like the power adapter for a cell phone).

As for linux, there are lots of options there. I currently have a CF card set up with PCLinuxOS mini 2008, which I happen to like a lot, since I can choose what fills my disk space, but loading in packages is easy. It runs quite well when I boot it up with that. Not having Windows on it brings the price down quite a bit. I am moving towards linux myself. I've spent a lot of time writing windows apps (I started before windows 3.1), Microsoft is really  getting quite good at alienating customers. Their efforts have succeeded with me.

Steve

[tinplate]

Regarding energy savings, that's hard to say because there are a number of ways to approach the calculation. One way would be if you are currently running your weather software on a beefy computer that runs 24x7 and draws, say 140 watts. This device would allow you to turn that off when you aren't sitting in front of it. Let's say you can then turn it off for 12 hours that it would otherwise be running. So the calculation (I think) would be 12 x (140-5) * 365 = 591 kilowatt hours. 591 * .075 = $44 savings per year. The equation is dependent on how you determine the energy you're saving, and what your top tier power rate is (not your average rate).

Steve

[Mark / Ohio]

I hooked up my clamp on amp meter to the plug on my UPS.  With my monitor off the computer and USB hardrive and powered USB hub are drawing 0.8 amps average or 0.8x118V (measured)=94.4 Watts.  So I would probably only run it 5 hours in the evenings if I were to start turning it off.

((94.4 Watts x 5 Hrs. x 365 Days) / 1000) x (0.07 Cents per KWH) = $12.06 Cost per Year

compared to

((94.4 Watts x 24 Hrs. x 365 Days) / 1000) x (0.07 Cents per KWH) = $57.89 Cost per Year for 24/7 operation

Low power computer on 24/7 drawing 5 watts would be

((5 Watts x 24 Hrs. x 365 Days) / 1000) x (0.07 Cents per KWH) = $3.07 Cost per Year

So $400 / ($57.89 - $12.06 - $3.07) = 9.36 Years to pay for the low power computer.

[wmiler]

Yes, there is an unused USB header inside, as well as an IDE header. So putting in an internal USB thumb drive (Super Talent makes them, they're made to plug right onto the header) is a possibility as is an IDE disk on module. Besides those there is the internal Compact Flash slot, which is what I am using. So there are a lot of options. I've mainly been looking at the default configuration from the standpoint of balancing cost and performance. But if you want to pay more, there are larger storage options.

As for linux, there are lots of options there. I currently have a CF card set up with PCLinuxOS mini 2008, which I happen to like a lot, since I can choose what fills my disk space, but loading in packages is easy. It runs quite well when I boot it up with that.

Ah, very cool, I literally have dozens of CF cards laying around (filled with pics) that this would be good to reuse them.

One of the projects I'm sort of working on is to provide basic weather station capabilities for missionaries in the field (principally aviation missionaries) who are really out in the boonies, if I could setup a wireless VP2, plus computer on a ~25W solar panel, with a short range VHF radio, that would be very good.

[ncpilot]

Ah, very cool, I literally have dozens of CF cards laying around (filled with pics) that this would be good to reuse them.

One of the projects I'm sort of working on is to provide basic weather station capabilities for missionaries in the field (principally aviation missionaries) who are really out in the boonies, if I could setup a wireless VP2, plus computer on a ~25W solar panel, with a short range VHF radio, that would be very good.

That would make a great article for the Davis newsletter...

[wuhu_software]

Here is another possibility for a stand alone computer to gather weather data:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00114T9WY/ref=noref/103-3737816-8709415?ie=UTF8&s=pc

It has a low max screen resolution, but other than that, it would make a nice embedded linux box.

[tinplate]

The eeePCs are nice, and a great idea. They aren't fanless though, and use in the range of 16 to 24 watts, depending on whether the battery is fully charged or charging.

[ncpilot]

Don't know if this link appeared in the prior posts:

http://www.mini-itx.com/

[KA8MAV]

I'm in the process now of setting up a new station (VP2 & Boltek PCI) and have it all up and running on an EPIA MII-12000 mini-itx system.

Here's the board I'm using:
http://www.via.com.tw/en/products/mainboards/motherboards.jsp?motherboard_id=202

It has 2 serial ports, 4 USB 2.0 ports, a PCI slot (that's what the Boltek is in), and even 1 CardBus Type I and Type II slot +1 CompactFlash Slot (as well as a bunch of other features including an I2C bus too!).  I currently have a 3G PCMCIA card in it providing Internet access (no DSL in my area yet).  I'm running XP Pro SP2 on it (on a 2.5" HDD) but plan on getting it to boot and run primarily from a CF card and only use the HDD for storage.  It is pretty quiet and is fast enough to do everything I want it to.  At first I was a little concerned about the lack of PCI slots, but depending on the case, you can expand it to 2.  The only other plans I have are a water level sensor for the lake (data input via second serial port), and possibly a USB webcam.

It's perfect!

[ncpilot]

And no link to your site????? 

My WX computer has frozen up today, as is obvious by the last update of 9:30 AM... can't remote into it, so it's got to be the PC. My network is ok because I can see my three network cams with no problem (yet another reason why I like network cams)...

It's been a bit flaky lately, especially after adding memory, could be it's time to do a fresh install of the OS and rebuild only the apps I need (it's quite cluttered with crap--that I installed... )

But it has got me thinking about an ITX solution, especially for lower power consumption. Current PC has an AMD 64 3000+... and a hefty power supply, but I suppose mostly it's running at idle with just WeatherLink, and the occasional FTP of hi-res images--so maybe power consumption isn't that bad... but it is on 24/7...

Nice to have the optional slots and other stuff... but I might go for more of a plain jane or micro/pico-ITX... it's only money! 

[ncpilot]

Been waiting for this development:

http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,1697,2280889,00.asp

Intel has been selling their ITX boards for about $75 or so. The current ones use SiS chips, the new one will use Intel chipsets...

http://www.mini-itx.com/2008/03/06/intel-planning-atom-based-mini-itx

[ncpilot]

Time to revive this thread!!!!!!

Directed mostly at tinplate, since he's done so much hardware development in the mini-itx area...

Any thoughts on all the new netbooks popping up lately? Asus, MSI, Dell, HP, Acer, Lenovo... I know there was a brief mention of the Asus back in a Feb post by tinplate--but since then there has been almost an explosion of netbooks...

I've been thinking about putting together a mini-itx solution, but buying something like a netbook might be close enough. A nice side benefit is that with a power outage, you've got a built-in 3 hour or so UPS. Plus it has a monitor. Still relatively small form factor...

Big question is how much power will they really draw under operation compared to a home-built min-itx with a hard drive?

$120 for an Intel Atom board with PS, add $90 for XP Home, $70 for a 60GB HD, $15 1GB DDR2 533 = $300 rounded up... did I miss anything?

New Intel SSD with more robust architecture to handle write operations--expected 5 year lifespan with 20GB written/day, 1.2 Million Hours MTBF--but no pricing yet!

Who's gonna be the first to buy one as their dedicated weather computer??

[Bushman]

I guess it'll be me.  WXForum newbie.  Just got an "open box" Asus eee PC 4G/701 for under $200!    SPECIFICALLY for use as a host for my new Davis VP2 wireless weather station.  I'll start a new thread... 

[tinplate]

I recently bought my wife one of the little Acer Aspire 1 mini-laptops from ewiz.com (now called SuperBiiz) http://www.ewiz.com/detail.php?name=AA150-1049 although it was on sale for $389 when I bought it. It's a nice little computer - just right for her. The keyboard is a little bigger than the first eeepcs. Battery life is quite good - a little over 5 hours. Plugged in, with a charged battery, it draws 12 to 17 watts according to my Kill-A-Watt meter. This value changes frequently depending on what the computer is doing. Average is 14 or 15 watts. That's not bad considering it has a conventional hard drive, and an 8" LCD screen as well.

By comparison, the box I'm using for my dedicated weather computer http://softwx.3dcartstores.com/WxPC-Ga-Ultra-Low-Power-Computer_p_24.html draws 4-5 watts, with solid state memory for a hard drive, and no display. That little weather box has been running flawlessly since I set it up last spring. Check out the uptime stats from VirtualVP!

That's 6 months without a reboot or hiccup of any kind. The only thing was a brief disconnect from the console, which VirtualVP recovered, when I moved my console. I think the people who say that using compact flash memory as a hard drive will fail within months are simply wrong. Modern flash memory with wear leveling, etc. should have quite decent life spans.

[Bushman]

Those little WxPCs look neat! Decent price, too.  I checked the operation of my eee PC and it draws about 16 watts with the whole thing running flat out, but only  about 2 watts when in standby. 

I meant to add that normally it draws 10-12 watts when it is running.  Only when reading/writing etc. does it hit 16 watts.

[roakey]

Wow, an already established note for what I wanted to talk about!

About two months ago I started thinking about standing up a PC totally dedicated to my weather station, and wondering about how low I could go with power, size and storage without having to really shoehorn anything together.  So I was thinking small, but at the same time I didn’t want to expend too much effort as well.  So I was poking around Tiger direct, and lo and behold came upon an Intel mini-ITX motherboard with a single core Atom processor.  After a couple days of quality time with Google and “mini-ITX” I had ordered the parts for a system (it’s been years since I put a system together, so this was kinda fun too!).

The guts of my weatherstation PC:

Intel single core 1.6ghz Atom processor motherboard  A caution on this motherboard: older stock has a heatsink that’s too tall and you need to buy an optional, shorter one to work in most mini-ITX boxes.  Ask the seller which height you’re getting, or, at this point spring for the extra ~$20 and get the dual core version mentioned below which comes with the shorter heatsink.

Mini-Box M200 case

Mini-Box 90watt power supply A caution here too: older stock has the wires to the SATA power conector coming off the side, rather than the end of the connector which doesn't work for connecting to a surface-mounted SATA drive (the M200 box's mounting method).  Ask the seller to send you a power supply that has the wires coming into the end of the SATA power connector.

Patriot 32gig SATA SSD

Kingston 2gig DDR (why 2gig?  As cheap as memory is, why not?)

The SSD is overkill, but the PC’s application has expanded to include running some of my USB-based audio/visual equipment as well, so the extra elbow room for storage was welcome.  Also, if I had to do it all over again, I might choose the Morex 5667 case and power supply instead of the M200 and picoPSU-90 power supply.

I also bought an external optical drive to initially bring up the system with:

HP dvd1040e 20x DVD

Though if you have an old PATA or SATA optical sitting around, I’d cable it up externally (temporarily) and avoid the cost of the external.  Once I was up and running and connected to the network, I got everything from the network, so I disconnected the optical drive.

I’ll supply more details later (as well as some pictures), but suffice to say anyone who is very comfortable cabling together a stereo system can put this PC together, though there are some tight spots that you have to deal with.

Also, I became so enamored with how small the box was, I put together a second system almost like it, but substituting a 2.5” SATA HDD and the Intel dual core 1.6ghz Atom processor motherboard (this one comes with a shorter heatsink, unlike the single-core one mentioned above).  I’m pushing this one to see just how much it’s capable of, and so far I’m pretty tickled by its performance (I’m using it now to compose this post).  So far I’ve only seen hesitation on 1080p movies and Google Earth, and the slight hesitations in Google Earth are easily tolerated.  If you’re a heavy multi-tasker it’d probably bog down but I’m a serial kinda guy so it works just great.  And given I have the box mounted up UNDER my desk, I’ve got a lot more [physical] desktop than I did when I had my huge system up on it!

mini-ITX resources to start your research:

http://www.mini-itx.com/ (already mentioned)
http://www.e-itx.com/ (motherboards, cases, power supplies and barebones)
http://www.mini-box.com/ (motherboards, cases, power supplies and barebones)
http://www.logicsupply.com/ (motherboards, cases, power supplies and barebones)

By no means exhaustive, but a good place to start.  As for 2.5" drives, etc. I'm a big fan of TigerDirect.com which is where I got the 32gig Patriot SSD for $90!

Hope this helps, if you’ve got any questions, I’ll try and answer them!  I need to dig a system out and take a picture of it against somethig for scale.

Roak

Ps.  Not mini-ITX, but for about the price of just the XP Pro license alone, you can get a refurbished HP XP Pro desktop from TigerDirect.com

[W Thomas]

I have a friend who just got a laptop for Christmas that has the Atom processor and was wondering how well it works since I had never heard much about that particular one.. Is it working fairly fast?

[roakey]

I have a friend who just got a laptop for Christmas that has the Atom processor and was wondering how well it works...

I think the dual-core Atom works very, very well for what I'm doing.  I wouldn't go with it for heavy-duty video editing or doing huge system compiles, but for reading email, cruising the web, writing documents, creating web pages, printing (I have three printers, one scanner and one all-in-one connected to this little system), updating the Palm and iPhone, etc. -- how 95% of us or more use our computers -- it works great!  Keep in mind there's a single core Atom and a dual-core -- for the small price difference I'd stick with the dual core version.

Yesterday I used a friend’s 1.6 GHz Centrino processor-based computer (about a year old) and it was a dog by comparison to the dual-core 1.6 GHz Atom.

One downside I should mention about these systems – they use itty-bitty fans, and because of their size and speed that they run, they whine.  Compared to today’s desktops, which are virtually silent, the fan-based mini-ITX systems make some noise.

You can go fanless, and consume next to nothing power-wise, but you pay for it.  A mini-ITX motherboard based on VIA’s Eden processor (available here) is about the cheapest fanless motherboard at about $125, compared to Intel’s dual-core Atom which is about $85.  And for more money you get less speed and only one core.  I can tolerate a little fan noise for $40 and more speed.

Now, if you’re trying to make a bare-minimum power system like tinplate was discussing early in this thread then by all means you have a reason to pay more to consume less power or go to a nano- or pico- form factor.  But if you’re just trying to cut your home power costs, I believe the Intel dual-core Atom processor motherboard (available here) is the way to go -- it's in the price-performance "sweet spot".

Roak

[W Thomas]

Thanks for the info! I am using a mix of AMD and Intel P4 processors here. The AMD is in my weather server and I have a  file server ( Dell Power Edge) that is running a P4 as well as the main desktop. I can say I am a little disappointed in the AMD dual core notebook processors! I have one in a Inspiron 1501 and it seems lots slower than my old Inspiron 6000 with a celeron 1.3 which I now use at work.

I may look into that particular form factor at some point but hopefully what I have will hold me for awhile...least ways I sure hope it does

[Bushman]

Here's an ITX-like low power solution. 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/34944117@N05/3243734447/

[Garth Bock]

While the mini ATX is kinda cool, I have been using Dell GX620 because of their pretty decent price on eBay. Stay at the 3ghz or above for good performance. There are 4 flavors of this line...the full tower....the desktop (uses a full size CDrom\burner)....the small desktop\small form (about the size of an 8x8 cake pan and uses a floppy CDrom\burner)......and the ultra small form which is the size of a large encyclopedia but has an external power brick. I got several of the desktop units for around $175. I am running XP\Win 7 beta in a dual boot config and it runs great. The ultra small cube units look great but I have a cd burner internal for installation and back up and the GX620 gives me 8 USB ports. The only thing is these units use low profile PCI cards. I have a USB wireless adapter on 2 of mine because I couldnt find an N low profile wireless card but I did change out one of the X300 ATI video cards to an X1050 256mb card so I could have dual monitors. I used to build computers since the days of Altairs but now the thrill is behind me and now the thrill is in finding the best deal per feature.

Garth
In Illinois....Our Governors Make Our License Plates
In Illinois....You're Innocent Until Elected Governor

[SlowModem]

It would seem to me that some industrious product development type person would see that there is a fanatical market for weather-related computer equipment (us).  It would also seem to me that LaCrosse, Oregon Scientific, Davis, etc., would make a deal with one of these tiny computer makers and incorporate their weather console into the computer so that you'd have a computer/weather console/software/data uploader all in the same package.

I'd give $200 for something like that, as long as it comes with a modem.

[Bushman]

Like I posted elsewhere, I have your dream setup for about $275 incl. modem and webcams with  extender in the form of my Asus eeePC. 

What would be REALLY cool is if Davis offered a Bluetooth relay to their console.  Look ma - no wires!