Topic: Davis VP2 or Ambient WS-2000?

[wxquy56]

Hi WXForum,

I am finally upgrading from my AcuRite 5-in-1. The crazy inaccurate temps during the afternoon have made my station completely useless.

After doing some research, I've narrowed my choices down to two stations: the Davis VP2 and the Ambient WS-2000. For the Davis, I am looking to buy the ISS (6323- $462) and the WeatherLink Live (6100- $175). The Ambient is definitely more appealing price-wise, with everything I'd need for $239. However, the accuracy on the Davis is supposedly much better than the Ambient. I just have a few questions concerning the units:

1) Does the 24/7 FARS on the VP2 make a significant difference in terms of accuracy over the Ambient? Temperature accuracy is the most important thing I'm looking for, so this could be a deal-breaker.

2) If I use the WeatherLink Live without a console, can I still view the indoor conditions on my phone? Can I calibrate the outdoor sensors from my phone?

3) If I'm using the basic (free) plan from Davis to upload my data to WeatherLink.com, is there any way I can send rapid-fire updates to Weather Underground? Or do I have to upgrade to the paid plan to do that?


Which station should I buy? Any help is greatly appreciated. Thanks!

[CW2274]

1) Does the 24/7 FARS on the VP2 make a significant difference in terms of accuracy over the Ambient? Temperature accuracy is the most important thing I'm looking for, so this could be a deal-breaker.

For starters, you're comparing an all-in-one unit to a VP2, not really a fair comparison...nevertheless. Any good fan aspirated shield will out perform a passive shield in light/calm wind conditions all day long, no contest, and the 24hr VP2's shield is one of the best in the business. I can't answer the other stuff, but from an all arond performance standpoint alone, there is no comparison. Not only, my VP2's been in the Az. sun now for 13 years...you get what you pay for.

[lightmaster]

I don't have any experience with the Weatherlink Live (WLL), so no comment on that.

If you have the money, I'd 100% recommend the VP2 over pretty much any other station. The accuracy is much better and you can take wind reading separately from the rest.

With FARS, beyond just more accurate readings during hot days, I've found it to eliminate my issue with wasps. The only area big enough for their nest now has a fast moving ceiling. 

Again I don't have a WLL so I can't speak towards if it's possible, but I'd recommend looking into a Meteobridge. They can send data to many different weather sites, including WU rapid updates. If you get a console instead of the WLL, you can even go with a Meteobridge Nano SD and have a WiFi Meteobridge that hides in the back of the console and gets power from it.

[92merc]

One other suggestion, take a look at the WiFi Logger made by fellow forum member.  I believe it will upload to WLL, but to other places as well.  And it's cheaper.  And he's continuing to develop it.

https://www.scaledinstruments.com/shop/davis-instruments/hardware-data-loggers-software/hardware-software-bundles/wifilogger/

[DoctorKnow]

Why not just fix the fan issue with the 5n1 before buying a whole new system? If the fan is not working properly, it won't matter what station you own.

Aspirated beats non aspirated hands down, no matter the brand.

[mauro63]

not always, not for all brand, and only in particular conditions, if it's raining, or with fog, a good not aspirated is better than every aspirated, if fan stop running every good no aspirated is better than every aspirated

Mauro

[wxquy56]

Why not just fix the fan issue with the 5n1 before buying a whole new system? If the fan is not working properly, it won't matter what station you own.

Aspirated beats non aspirated hands down, no matter the brand.

The fan in the 5-in-1 still works. It just apparently does a horrible job. After reading more on the forum and reading the replies on this post, it seems that most people agree that the Davis aspirated shield is worth the extra cost. So I agree with you- I think any aspirated shield is better than non aspirated (except the AcuRite).

[CW2274]

not always, not for all brand, and only in particular conditions, if it's raining, or with fog, a good not aspirated is better than every aspirated, if fan stop running every good no aspirated is better than every aspirated

Mauro

Agreed, I'd rather have an exceptional passive shield over a bad aspirated one. As far as fog, rain, your statement is an over-generalization. Yes, dew point measurements should not technically be aspirated, but not too many of us can accomplish this. The temp is unaffected and this is by far what most care about. Besides, humidity measurements are difficult enough above 95ish%, even for the professional stuff.

[mauro63]

With Rain or fog you can have an underestimation of temperature reading with an aspirated radiation shield
This Is confirmed by various studyes
Mauro

[lightmaster]

One other suggestion, take a look at the WiFi Logger made by fellow forum member.  I believe it will upload to WLL, but to other places as well.  And it's cheaper.  And he's continuing to develop it.

https://www.scaledinstruments.com/shop/davis-instruments/hardware-data-loggers-software/hardware-software-bundles/wifilogger/

Just a little tidbit to help not confuse the OP looking into buying stuff, WeatherLink Live (aka WLL) is a physical product made by Davis to connect to an ISS and upload data online, Weatherlink.com is the Davis owned online service that data is uploaded to.

While WiFiLogger can currently upload to Weatherlink.com, considering it does so in a reverse engineered method that circumvents Davis's restriction of only Davis products uploading to Weatherlink.com, there's no guarantee that Davis won't change things up to block WiFiLogger. Not saying that would happen, but there's every possibility it could. Personally, I think Davis needs to open it up so any logger powered by a Davis Station can upload there, but then that would hurt the sales of their own loggers. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[CW2274]

With Rain or fog you can have an underestimation of temperature reading with an aspirated radiation shield
This Is confirmed by various studyes
Mauro

Well, I'll put it to you this way, when it's 116F (46.7C) outside and there's little to no wind, I'll take my aspirated VP2 over any passive shield, any day, every day. Apparently the NOAA/NWS doesn't condone to the studies (right or wrong) as every ASOS here is aspirated, and practically all of them are official NWS measurements for any given area.

[galfert]

I dragged my feet and waited a couple of years for the arrival of the never announced Davis VP3. I thought surely after over 10 years that the VP3 release had to be eminent. I didn't want to pluck down for a VP2 and then see the release of a VP3 a few months or a year later. Then after realizing that the VP3 was just a cruel joke rumor that Davis themselves taunted on Facebook, I came to the conclusion that having something was better than nothing. So I bought the Ambient WS-2902A and later upgraded the console to the WS-2000. If a VP3 comes out now then great I would be happy to have it and my Ambient investment was worth it as it was not that much and I know I can find use for it with a friend or family to take over. If the Ambient stops working parts are easily and cheaply available. Or I can replace the whole outdoor unit for $75. I can replace that unit several times over and so the longevity of the Davis at a several times higher price is inconsequential.

Totally you get what you pay for. But what about the buyer's remorse when a new model finally comes out. If I had been in the market 6 years ago then yes no brainer I would have gone for the Davis VP2. But had I bought a Davis VP2 in say 2006 I think I'd be bored with it by now. It looks so dated. Even if it is still working, I don't want my Ambient to last 12 years let alone 6 years. That is a long time in tech that is continually improving, so I like to upgrade and I don't mind spending money to get newer stuff. Some people drive an old car till the wheels come off. Some people like to trade up sooner or later. The VP2 is now over 14 years old. Yes it has had some updates like temp/humidity sensors and now new rain gauge. And there is the new WLL that seems awesome with its local API. But underneath the VP2 still uses a legacy Sensirion Sensibus device interconnect bus protocol instead of how everyone else with newer stuff and newer sensors are using I2C bus. That matters when it come to servicing and replacing sensors. The Davis SHT31 with this old protocol has had some reliability issues of wet bias and limited high end for humidity after only around 18 months of use (sometimes more, sometimes less). That isn't a headache I want to deal with, not for Davis kind of money. Especially this late in the product cycle. Unbelievable to me that Davis hasn't done anything about this.

For me I didn't expect any great accuracy at first with Ambient. But I have been more than pleasantly surprised. Check out my MADIS and Gladstonefamily.net and AWEKAS station data comparisons. If a Davis is more accurate I'm not missing it as I'm only a weather enthuthiast and not a farmer and my life or business doesn't depend on this. Sure the Davis may be better at wind and low humidity, but for me I'm more interested in something that works and looks good with latest features. I also enjoy having extra sensors including PM2.5 and all of these are inexpensive add ons. Also read the Ambient subforum...lots of happy customers. Yes there are lots of Davis happy customers too as they should be for what they have paid.

There are many compromises with an Ambient station. It isn't perfect by any means. It is an all-in-one design so right there you sacrifice something because of design limitations. You sacrifice on everything like peek wind because you can't place it up high without then affecting rain and such. Also console reception is much less. Ambient claims 300 ft unobstructed and 100 ft typical but some people get much less than 100 ft before reception problems occur. There is much more. I could write a book. Pros and cons everywhere for just about any brand. Some Davis users are very proud and can't see any cons. You aren't one of them or you wouldn't have asked the question. For some people it is Davis and only Davis and that is great for them and I'm glad the perfect product exists for them. I like buying the best at any cost, when it checks all the boxes.

When a VP3 finally comes out I'll be ready.

Im not saying the VP2 isn't worth it. Everyone is different and has different priorities.

Imagine if you have the kind of money to buy a 14 year old Mercedes that is brand new. Imagine if Mercedes had not innovated and that was your only choice with them and you didn't know when they might finally make something new. Do you buy this old (technology) but new Mercedes or do you look at the newest Honda Civic and see all the new features and new technology with Android Auto/Apple CarPlay, LED lights, lane watch, reverse camera, adaptive cruise control, Bluetooth.... etc.. etc? For some people this old Mercedes with older technology is very luxurious and the Civic can never match it with all its newer technology. Some people look at it from a more focused point of view. A weather station is supposed to perform and everything else is just fancy unnecessary dressing. And that is a fine perspective to have. They both are fine.

So decide which type of person you are (old Mercedes or new Civic). There is no wrong choice. You just have to be willing to accept your choice.

I'm not disparaging on Davis. I'm a big fan. I just want a VP3 and I won't spend a cent for a VP2.

[CW2274]

Your argument doesn't hold water (to me) just for the simple fact the 14 year old VP2 still kicks the competitions ass. It is apparently obvious some people value looks, bells, whistles over the main purpose of a wx station.....measure and report the weather as accurately, reliably, and timely as possible. Nothing wrong with the bells and whistle folks, it's a choice like anything else in life, what's important to the owner. I guess this is exactly why I still drive my 2002 BMW M3 I bought brand new, it still does what I want, and very well, nothing else interest me, just like new PWS doesn't.

[lightmaster]

With technology these days, I'm impressed by the number of people who have VP2s that still function after 10-15 years. To me it speaks volumes about the build quality there. Hell, a guy posted the other day about his 15 year old VP2 not registering water anymore. He contacted Davis and they sent him a new reed switch and it started working again.

There are certainly pros and cons to every station, just like with every device in any field out there. And I disagree with galfert in that there is no such thing as a perfect product for anyone, you always have to make a sacrifice of something even if you are buying a brand new, just released, top of the line product. There will always be a compromise, do you want high quality, high accuracy, or low price.... Pick 2. For many like galfert they don't want to spend the higher price for the older yet still reliable and high quality station, and for CW2274, obviously he values the accuracy and long term reliability in exchange for the higher cost.

The question is, OP, which do you value most and what are you willing to compromise on? Both are great stations in their own right, and only you can decide what you're willing to compromise on.

[wase4711]

agree, that its everyone's choice as to what "vehicle" they prefer to drive...but, like others here, I have had 2 Davis units, one for 12 years is Suburban Chicago, and you know what the weather extremes are there...I had an Ambient for awhile when we first moved out here to Arizona, but, decided, after reading lots of posts here and other places, that the VP2 was the way to go..I too live in the Arizona Desert, and I'm pretty sure my unit will still be reporting conditions accurately for many many years to come, just like it has since I put it up last year..

[WheatonRon]

Your argument doesn't hold water (to me) just for the simple fact the 14 year old VP2 still kicks the competitions ass. It is apparently obvious some people value looks, bells, whistles over the main purpose of a wx station.....measure and report the weather as accurately, reliably, and timely as possible. Nothing wrong with the bells and whistle folks, it's a choice like anything else in life, what's important to the owner. I guess this is exactly why I still drive my 2002 BMW M3 I bought brand new, it still does what I want, and very well, nothing else interest me, just like new PWS doesn't.

I still have my 1985 300SD Mercedes. I am the original owner and it only has 96,000 miles on it! That is why I have 3 VP2s! They last forever, even though I frequently complain about the rainfall accuracy, spoon tipper or not, and the horribly dated console.

[CW2274]

Your argument doesn't hold water (to me) just for the simple fact the 14 year old VP2 still kicks the competitions ass. It is apparently obvious some people value looks, bells, whistles over the main purpose of a wx station.....measure and report the weather as accurately, reliably, and timely as possible. Nothing wrong with the bells and whistle folks, it's a choice like anything else in life, what's important to the owner. I guess this is exactly why I still drive my 2002 BMW M3 I bought brand new, it still does what I want, and very well, nothing else interest me, just like new PWS doesn't.

I still have my 1985 300SD Mercedes. I am the original owner and it only has 96,000 miles on it!

Holy crap! You still got another 400,000 miles on that MB motor!!

[weather34]

having previously owned fine offsett or ambient clones and others if you want to be still accurately measuring data in 5-10 years time then there is no question a davis vp2 is what you need .
the higher cost far outweighs any doubts in the long run. you will notice the familiar pattern of davis owners “its still working after all these years”

vp3 doesnt exists its based on rumours not factual and galfert a non davis owner continuous rhetoric and rumblings about it because he can not find any other reason. but my guess is the price point..

the reason davis is the only recommendation based on your question because there is nothing better in this consumer end of the market..if a vp3 was in the pipeline why would a company dedicated to manufacturing weather stations release upgradeable parts and new parts to be used in its existing models..davis is not a large employee based company but has certainly highlighted its got a capable R&D program how else would these newer parts all work with existing models.

chinese  style mass bulk production products dont get upgrades they basically
have a short production cycle life and when the time comes to replace the broken parts you basically have to buy a brand new package because very few resellers mostly amazon based do not carry parts as i discovered..


goto any reliable davis hardware reseller not amazon alike or even contact davis direct and you will find a good selection of most parts and even a refurbishment program and in your case right now a simple repair or replacement of the aspirator on your accu thing would resolve your issue now wouldnt that be easier if you could do that.

i was waiting for the day when a davis owner would bite the bullet and purchase a latest fine offset branded package and last week finally it basically told me nothing has changed in these mass bulked produced chinese branded products..see @mapantz reference brand new out of the box initial experience of a branded chinese model..yes an array of optional extra sensors sensors for measuring indoor microclimate not outdoors apart from soil and a somewhat defunct air quality sensor..

when you buy a davis your not just buying a white piece of plastic your buying a trusted brand a service and until some other manufacturer or company comes along with the same approach then davis is the only choice if you can justify the costs..

sorry once once bitten twice shy of fine offset brands ..been there thrown it away ..and like all things in this day and age quality comes at a cost.ps not bias just been there and was dismayed at the short lifespan and what i spent on fine offset brands and oregon over a 3 year period i could originally bought a davis and probably used the money to expand it even further ..brian

[johnd]

FWIW I also think this whole VP3 speculation is totally overblown. One of the interesting things about the Weatherlink Live release is that it's an important new product that continues to use the existing wireless technology, which is one of the major things that could have changed in a VP3. That in itself suggests to me that a VP3 is not imminent.

Then there's no obvious way in which the ISS would be materially different in a VP3 from now. Maybe one day there will be scope for eg ultrasonic anemometers at the VP2 price point but again that doesn't feel imminent to me. And maybe one day Davis will use a better fan motor in the aspirated shield, but that in itself wouldn't justify a move to a VP3 branding. The SHT31 debate is I suspect a non-issue for most users, though I accept that for a small subset it's more of a concern (though I've yet to see any compelling evidence for a better alternative).

So the only aspect to my way of thinking in which a VP3 would be different to VP2 would be the console. But I'm left wondering whether with Weatherlink Live Davis are testing the idea that the concept of a dedicated console is outdated, with a tablet or smartphone being the obvious substitute. Probably we need a better tablet app than the WL app is currently, but that might or might not be a third-party app rather than anything that Davis sponsor. That said, maybe Davis do have a design for a new (VP3) console as a backup plan but are waiting to see how WLL is accepted in the marketpalce?

Then in the absence of any new console design, just how would a VP3 be different from a VP2 ISS + WLL? (Maybe for purely marketing purposes Davis might bundle these two together and call it VP3!)

[galfert]

Then in the absence of any new console design, just how would a VP3 be different from a VP2 ISS + WLL? (Maybe for purely marketing purposes Davis might bundle these two together and call it VP3!)

With the ISS they need to replace the LSS with I2C. Then they can call it a VP3. I agree with what you said regarding the WLL and an app for a console display. I'm very excited about the WLL, that was a great move by Davis...only because of the local API. That is the key issue that differentiates it from the Acurite Access. I might be interested in the Acurite Atlas Elite (if it ever comes out) but only if the Access gets an open local API.

Moving to I2C would alow for better sensors like SHT35. And also alow for easy integration of extra sensor types like PM2.5. Even if they integrate the I2C bus and keep that version of the SHT31 I'll be able to easily rig in an SHT85. The LSS is what I have a problem with because I can't put in an SHT85.

For those that are lost in what I said here are some details:
SHT31 is available in LSS and I2C bus types.
SHT35 is only available in I2C bus type.
SHT85 is a PCB mounted SHT35, hence only I2C bus compatible.

[weather34]

well john the sht31 issue is not widespread i live in a warmer somewhat drier climate than you see on average in the UK and seasonal high humidity and dusty drier periods.ive not see any discrepancies with the sht31 used here , ive seen bottom end readings of 10% under certain conditions south easterly dry winds note i live by the sea ,ive seen 100% humidity under dense fog conditions the type with extreme low visibility and creates a layer of dew on everything..no offsets applied...

as for a vp3? console if they dare call it that it quite rightly doesnt warrant a different model number moreso call it a console-plus  .personally build upon this trusted brand and model and continue there yearly subtle upgrades ...i.e tipping bucket,wll...

as for apps replacing console probably a likelihood but i hope manufacturers start producing a fallback when that 24/7 internet isnt available be it a natural weather disaster , or a natural disaster event or just routine ,unforeseen downtime..a lesson learnt from cloud dependable services ,api services,just look around this forum they are not a reliable solution..

first hand experience of using a weather station piece of hardware that has a dependency on a app to provide data and to configure the initial install,the moment the internet drops or an outage occurs it relies on a compatible bluetooth connection..

so a console-plus would be seen as ever a reliable solution..

galfert if davis produce a pm 2.5 it would be advantageous for them to design a dedicated product as an add on and be positionable ? but it opens up other backward compatibility issues with consoles so perhaps a console-plus would be on the horizon..please don’t misunderstand my qualms with fine offset products they are real world dissatisfaction and experiences and having dismantled them in the past im amazed just how crude some of the past models ever got past a qc check..perhaps they have improved ?

as for the op original question if you can justify the cost spend your hard earned money on a trusted proven brand and build upon on it as time goes bye..as you discovered with the accurite however will a fix of the aspirator not buy you time to decide..

[johnd]

With the ISS they need to replace the LSS with I2C. Then they can call it a VP3.

Sorry, but I really don't buy this, at least as a justification for marketing a VP3. I can't recall one single customer ever seriously complaining about the humidity accuracy of the SHT31 (or SHT15), and comments were pretty limited even when SHT11 was the standard fit. RH is just not a reading that concerns too many of our users. We get far more complaints (in terms of sensor accuracy) about rainfall accuracy, which hopefully the tipping spoon - as and when it becomes a standard fit - might go some way towards fixing. I know that a few posters on here get very exercised about SHT31, but I'm not convinced that this is at all representative of the VP2 customer base in general.

To be clear, I agree 100% that a switch to the official I2C standard for the T/H input is desirable- might as well use the proper standard rather than some variation of it. But I can't see that any such change per se would justify VP3 branding, nor would the great majority of users notice any difference in performance.

In terms of things like air quality sensors, I'd have thought that EM was Davis's real multi-sensor platform. Actually,my guess would be that some development of EM (eg maybe a WLL-type gateway for EM nodes/sensors) might be the basis for a next-generation VP2, though whether that would use the branding VP3 is perhaps doubtful.

[galfert]

Brian,
I mentioned "local" API, not Internet based API. With a local network API protocol your app based console will continue to work when the Internet goes down. The Davis WLL has a local API and an app based console would work just fine without Internet. At least it should in theory if designed properly.

My Ecowitt GW1000 console has a local API and it can see my Ambient sensors when the Internet is down. My Meteobridge continues to receive the data from the GW1000 with this API and sends it to my local SQL database with no Internet. I can also configure a new GW1000 console without Internet (as long as I have the app installed).

[weather34]

sorry i must have skipped that part in your post but my own experiences with apps have not been so reliable perhaps as you say theoretically if developed correctly data should be viewable but like you i use the meteobridge products to do all the hard work and keep things ticking over when the internet or electricity goes awol so all data is recorded locally and viewable at all times as it is connected to a ups and has no internet dependancies..

anyway forget the vp3 throw your money at a vp2 and enjoy the subtle  upgrade path of those things johnd mentions a single tipping bucket is on my list for my next visit to the uk later this year .wll is not no need when you have the nanosd doing its thing day in day out ..

best of luck to the op on whatever he decides on im sure he will find enough info on this forum to sway his decision...have a great day...brian

[wxquy56]

Thanks for the help everyone! Sounds like Davis is the way to go.

The cheapest place I can find to buy the station is at Scaled Instruments. Does anyone have any experience with that store?
Thanks.