Author Topic: "Davis Instruments wants to hear about your Weather Station"  (Read 8326 times)

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Offline CW2274

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Re: "Davis Instruments wants to hear about your Weather Station"
« Reply #25 on: July 11, 2015, 02:56:47 PM »
Someone posted the reason they haven't done it with a firmware update already is the console doesn't have enough processor power for the altimeter calculations. The Davis VP2 supports more instruments & sensors than the VUE and apparently with the current setup is maxed out. Future units may have a better processor but how far do you go with processor. They still want the units to be portable so the more processor the more battery drain.
Didn't know, thanks Randy. :-(

Offline ValentineWeather

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Re: "Davis Instruments wants to hear about your Weather Station"
« Reply #26 on: July 11, 2015, 03:41:39 PM »
Someone posted the reason they haven't done it with a firmware update already is the console doesn't have enough processor power for the altimeter calculations. The Davis VP2 supports more instruments & sensors than the VUE and apparently with the current setup is maxed out. Future units may have a better processor but how far do you go with processor. They still want the units to be portable so the more processor the more battery drain.
Didn't know, thanks Randy. :-(

Its also one of the reasons they still use the old style screens. I really wish they would keep the VP2 in production for those that want portable and have a new plugin version (VP3) color screen maybe with a lithium battery & tons of processing power. First thing people will do though is complain about cost.  :lol:
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Offline hankster

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Re: "Davis Instruments wants to hear about your Weather Station"
« Reply #27 on: July 11, 2015, 03:59:30 PM »
I really wish they would keep the VP2 in production for those that want portable and have a new plugin version (VP3) color screen maybe with a lithium battery & tons of processing power. First thing people will do though is complain about cost.  :lol:
Let's see, a Davis console and data logger runs about $300. For $100 you can get a tablet that has far more processor power, more memory, Wifi, Bluetooth, networking, HDMI output and is even programmable (you wouldn't even need a separate computer any longer). Sure a wireless chipset would have to be added to talk to the sensors but that would be only a couple bucks worth of chips. Heck, they could even sell a dongle to read the sensors that would plug into the USB port of a tablet (or computer) plus their own software and let owners use whatever tablet (or computer) they want.

Of course Davis doesn't want that. They have the need to control everything from end to end (note the green dot data logger and all the problems that it caused users). If a console was programmable they would lose some control of that end of the business.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2015, 04:01:59 PM by hankster »

Offline Josiah

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Re: "Davis Instruments wants to hear about your Weather Station"
« Reply #28 on: July 11, 2015, 04:09:54 PM »
Of course Davis doesn't want that. They have the need to control everything from end to end (note the green dot data logger and all the problems that it caused users). If a console was programmable they would lose some control of that end of the business.

That seems to be Davis' business model.
I do wonder if sales of Davis stations would go up if they did come out with a customizable / user programmable console + a easily interfaced comms protocol for the sensor suite.

Offline hankster

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Re: "Davis Instruments wants to hear about your Weather Station"
« Reply #29 on: July 11, 2015, 04:36:47 PM »
Of course Davis doesn't want that. They have the need to control everything from end to end (note the green dot data logger and all the problems that it caused users). If a console was programmable they would lose some control of that end of the business.

That seems to be Davis' business model.
I do wonder if sales of Davis stations would go up if they did come out with a customizable / user programmable console + a easily interfaced comms protocol for the sensor suite.
Say you can get a complete VP2 (w/fan) for $800 or one without a console for $600 and use an old tablet you have laying around unused. You can then use that computer you would have to use to publish to a web site for something else instead of attaching it to the console. Plus you'd save on your electric bill each month because a tablet uses a lot less juice than a computer.

For those that want to save more money they can get a Vue ISS for maybe $300 (with a Davis supplied dongle) and use their own tablet.

Just think of all great stuff that could be done by users sharing screen layouts, graphics, custom skins, etc. for tablets.

IMHO, a no-brainer.

Offline ValentineWeather

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Re: "Davis Instruments wants to hear about your Weather Station"
« Reply #30 on: July 11, 2015, 04:57:52 PM »
I really wish they would keep the VP2 in production for those that want portable and have a new plugin version (VP3) color screen maybe with a lithium battery & tons of processing power. First thing people will do though is complain about cost.  :lol:
Let's see, a Davis console and data logger runs about $300. For $100 you can get a tablet that has far more processor power, more memory, Wifi, Bluetooth, networking, HDMI output and is even programmable (you wouldn't even need a separate computer any longer). Sure a wireless chipset would have to be added to talk to the sensors but that would be only a couple bucks worth of chips. Heck, they could even sell a dongle to read the sensors that would plug into the USB port of a tablet (or computer) plus their own software and let owners use whatever tablet (or computer) they want.

Of course Davis doesn't want that. They have the need to control everything from end to end (note the green dot data logger and all the problems that it caused users). If a console was programmable they would lose some control of that end of the business.

So how long will that powerful $100 dollar tablet run on battery power? Many never plug the VP2 in.  The standard batteries 'C' cell will run up to 9 months without ever plugging the console in. I've got 2 consoles VP2 and Vue and have never plugged the living room unit in because its hanging on the wall.   
 
Its possible they could come up with some laptop interface to replace the console but why would they? Every business is in for the money and will do their best to keep control. If profits decline and make it no longer profitable we get stuck with crap and inferior weather stations. No thanks, they should do like any other successful company, keep control, keep the market and make a profit.
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Offline hankster

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Re: "Davis Instruments wants to hear about your Weather Station"
« Reply #31 on: July 11, 2015, 05:03:08 PM »
I really wish they would keep the VP2 in production for those that want portable and have a new plugin version (VP3) color screen maybe with a lithium battery & tons of processing power. First thing people will do though is complain about cost.  :lol:
Let's see, a Davis console and data logger runs about $300. For $100 you can get a tablet that has far more processor power, more memory, Wifi, Bluetooth, networking, HDMI output and is even programmable (you wouldn't even need a separate computer any longer). Sure a wireless chipset would have to be added to talk to the sensors but that would be only a couple bucks worth of chips. Heck, they could even sell a dongle to read the sensors that would plug into the USB port of a tablet (or computer) plus their own software and let owners use whatever tablet (or computer) they want.

Of course Davis doesn't want that. They have the need to control everything from end to end (note the green dot data logger and all the problems that it caused users). If a console was programmable they would lose some control of that end of the business.

So how long will that powerful $100 dollar tablet run on battery power? Many never plug the VP2 in.  The standard batteries 'C' cell will run up to 9 months without ever plugging the console in. I've got 2 consoles VP2 and Vue and have never plugged the living room unit in because its hanging on the wall.   
 
Its possible they could come up with some laptop interface to replace the console but why would they? Every business is in for the money and will do their best to keep control. If profits decline and make it no longer profitable we get stuck with crap and inferior weather stations. No thanks, they should do like any other successful company, keep control, keep the market and make a profit.
I would have to say it is a lot less than MANY run the console without AC. If you don't plug it in you can't get any data out of it so the rest is mute. Of course the high priced legacy console should be available for those that want them. It's their business decision of course, profits above all else.

Glad you are happy with your setup. My feeling is the current console is next to worthless. I created my own setup for a tablet that pulls the info off my web site. Just wish I didn't need the legacy console, computer and web site to get this info so that I can easily see the weather from across the room.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2015, 05:09:24 PM by hankster »

Offline hankster

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Re: "Davis Instruments wants to hear about your Weather Station"
« Reply #32 on: July 11, 2015, 05:20:00 PM »
Here are a couple more screenshots of info available using the top menu. Guess it is each person's opinion if the current console is OK or if they would rather have something like this.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2015, 05:22:55 PM by hankster »

Online johnd

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Re: "Davis Instruments wants to hear about your Weather Station"
« Reply #33 on: July 11, 2015, 05:22:18 PM »
Someone posted the reason they haven't done it with a firmware update already is the console doesn't have enough processor power for the altimeter calculations.

I'd be surprised if that's true. What's more plausible is that there's not enough space in the existing memory map to make the necessary changes easily, at least perhaps not without a major rewrite of the firmware. And doing the necessary rewrite hasn't been judged to be enough of a priority for the limited programming resource that Davis have available (which, don't forget, is spread across all Davis products, not just the weather lines).

Yes, of course, they should have more programmers, but that's a commercial decision. There are recent straws in the wind to suggest that things are changing (not least this rather belated questionnaire), but it will inevitably take time before the refocusing bears fruit. As is often remarked, there's just not enough serious competition in the prosumer AWS marketplace.
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Offline ValentineWeather

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Re: "Davis Instruments wants to hear about your Weather Station"
« Reply #34 on: July 11, 2015, 05:26:56 PM »
Someone posted the reason they haven't done it with a firmware update already is the console doesn't have enough processor power for the altimeter calculations.

I'd be surprised if that's true. What's more plausible is that there's not enough space in the existing memory map to make the necessary changes easily, at least perhaps not without a major rewrite of the firmware. And doing the necessary rewrite hasn't been judged to be enough of a priority for the limited programming resource that Davis have available (which, don't forget, is spread across all Davis products, not just the weather lines).

Yes, of course, they should have more programmers, but that's a commercial decision. There are recent straws in the wind to suggest that things are changing (not least this rather belated questionnaire), but it will inevitably take time before the refocusing bears fruit. As is often remarked, there's just not enough serious competition in the prosumer AWS marketplace.

Does it really matter if its processing power or memory? Bottom line is they haven't done it yet.
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Re: "Davis Instruments wants to hear about your Weather Station"
« Reply #35 on: July 11, 2015, 05:31:20 PM »
I would have to say it is a lot less than MANY run the console without AC. If you don't plug it in you can't get any data out of it so the rest is mute.

Where did that idea come from? A 6510 logger runs fine on battery power (just not a 6555 WLIP).

Quote
Just wish I didn't need the legacy console, computer and web site to get this info...

You don't - just set up a Meteostick + MeteoBridge and talk to the MB via WiFi. Problem solved.
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Re: "Davis Instruments wants to hear about your Weather Station"
« Reply #36 on: July 11, 2015, 05:34:12 PM »
Does it really matter if its processing power or memory? Bottom line is they haven't done it yet.

Difference is that if it's CPU-limited then it will never be possible. If it's a memory-related issue then it probably can be done when it's accorded some priority.
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Offline ValentineWeather

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Re: "Davis Instruments wants to hear about your Weather Station"
« Reply #37 on: July 11, 2015, 05:38:07 PM »
Does it really matter if its processing power or memory? Bottom line is they haven't done it yet.

Difference is that if it's CPU-limited then it will never be possible. If it's a memory-related issue then it probably can be done when it's accorded some priority.

That's good then. So maybe there is still hope for existing VP2 owners of having the altimeter feature in the future.
Randy

Offline hankster

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Re: "Davis Instruments wants to hear about your Weather Station"
« Reply #38 on: July 11, 2015, 05:52:40 PM »
I would have to say it is a lot less than MANY run the console without AC. If you don't plug it in you can't get any data out of it so the rest is mute.

Where did that idea come from? A 6510 logger runs fine on battery power (just not a 6555 WLIP).
You are right. My mistake.
Quote
Quote
Just wish I didn't need the legacy console, computer and web site to get this info...

You don't - just set up a Meteostick + MeteoBridge and talk to the MB via WiFi. Problem solved.
Sure you could do that, for about $400 in hardware vs a $150 tablet that is far more capable and versatile.

Offline hankster

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Re: "Davis Instruments wants to hear about your Weather Station"
« Reply #39 on: July 11, 2015, 06:00:15 PM »
Pardon my cynicism, but since DAVIS didn't fixed this barometry data problem when it was FIRST reported, it's rather apparent (to me) that it's NOT important enough to THEM to fix now, because in the commercial world: BAD things get fixed immediately...nuisance things get ignored.
Wish there was a "like" button for this post LOL

Offline ValentineWeather

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Re: "Davis Instruments wants to hear about your Weather Station"
« Reply #40 on: July 11, 2015, 06:33:17 PM »
Pardon my cynicism, but since DAVIS didn't fix this barometry data problem when it was FIRST reported, it's rather apparent (to me) that it's NOT important enough to THEM to fix now, because in the commercial world: BAD things get fixed immediately...nuisance things get ignored.

Maybe but it doesn't appear to be an easy fix even if they wanted. If its true they need to free up memory by rewriting the code completely, that's no small task. 
But you are absolutely right, especially early on they looked at altimeter as no more than an nuisance issue rather than something needed. Now with CWOP growing and so many participating the pressure was put on, so they did respond by including it in the VUE console.
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Offline CW2274

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Re: "Davis Instruments wants to hear about your Weather Station"
« Reply #41 on: July 11, 2015, 07:14:37 PM »
Pardon my cynicism, but since DAVIS didn't fix this barometry data problem when it was FIRST reported, it's rather apparent (to me) that it's NOT important enough to THEM to fix now, because in the commercial world: BAD things get fixed immediately...nuisance things get ignored.

Maybe but it doesn't appear to be an easy fix even if they wanted. If its true they need to free up memory by rewriting the code completely, that's no small task. 
But you are absolutely right, especially early on they looked at altimeter as no more than an nuisance issue rather than something needed. Now with CWOP growing and so many participating
Quote
the pressure was put on
Quote
,
:lol:

Online johnd

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Re: "Davis Instruments wants to hear about your Weather Station"
« Reply #42 on: July 12, 2015, 03:50:32 AM »
Sure you could do that, for about $400 in hardware vs a $150 tablet that is far more capable and versatile.

I don't really understand that. A Davis Vantage wireless transmitter uses neither WiFi nor Bluetooth and so it can't ever be received directly on a tablet. (Maybe a future generation of Davis station will be different and while it could in theory use WiFi, the signs are that something like ZigBee is more likely. But I guess such a station would need to be called something new - to have 'Vantage' in the name could imply compatibility with existing Vue and VP2 stations, so VP3 is perhaps unlikely as name for a station with different comms. But eg ZigBee wouldn't be directly tablet-compatibleeither.)

So basically it's unavoidable that you have a separate receiver module for the Vue/VP2 sensor signals and that's never going to be very low cost for a ready-made item in very low volume production ($175 is probably the floor price at current rates of production, although if you have the skills - which most user won't - you could make your own and customise your own firmware).

Also, don't overlook the practicality that most (I know that there are a handful of uncommon exceptions) tablets don't have a free USB port, although I know there are some untidy workarounds. If you're content to use either a laptop or something like a Raspberry Pi then those solutions are available now - just plug MeteoStick into your preferred computing device.

NB I'm not trying to suggest that anything is impossible, but more that there are some realities that you can't overlook. No hardware is ever going to be free and any hardware that's manufactured in runs of hundreds is going to have very different economics to items like USB WiFi adapters where the production run might be eg 10 million. And then there's the question of firmware/software cost. Someone might be generous enough to open-source it like weewx, but in general and especially if you want continuing software development/maintenance/support then surely the software author is entitled to some reasonable remuneration?
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Offline hankster

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Re: "Davis Instruments wants to hear about your Weather Station"
« Reply #43 on: July 12, 2015, 09:07:27 AM »

I don't really understand that. A Davis Vantage wireless transmitter uses neither WiFi nor Bluetooth and so it can't ever be received directly on a tablet.

I only quoted this part because it seems you haven't read my posts. I clearly stated earlier that either a receiver chipset would have to be added to a tablet or a dongle that would plug into the USB port could be designed. A receiver chipset would add a couple of bucks to the cost to manufacture a "custom" tablet or a few bucks more for a separate dongle.

Secondly, on the USB port. There are many attachments that use a tablets USB port that also include an extra port that allows you to charge/power the tablet at the same time. I use an HDMI adaptor on my Nexus 7 that lets me attach it to my TV and it allows me to plug in my AC wall adaptor. You plug the HDMI adaptor into the USB port of the tablet, then plug an AC adaptor into it. That HDMI adaptor cost me less than $10. Nothing untidy about that.

So you are saying that a separate dongle that would include nothing more than a couple usb ports, a receiver chipset, an antenna and maybe a couple other interface chips would cost $175? This is more than a whole new Davis console now costs that includes that plus processor, memory, temp. sensor, LCD display, buttons, etc? You already said something like a PI could be used. They cost $25 and have a lot more in them then what would be needed for a wireless dongle. Not sure where you are coming up those $175 figures.

Heck, a separate dongle (or even custom tablet) could even save them money as they wouldn't need to make separate consoles for the VP2 and VUE, use the same display.  Only sell a few hundred? They sell a lot more stations than that plus you'd have a good percentage that would want to upgrade their old systems to something a bit more modern and useful.

Not going to comment any more on this. You think it's very difficult. I say that Davis is going to milk the weather community of their money for old outdated equipment. That is until the time that they are forced to give something that is beyond the 1980's. The best part of the Davis equipment are the outdoor sensors, that is what makes Davis equipment better than the other brands. There is no reason to change that. Everything else is old and outdated.

« Last Edit: July 12, 2015, 09:26:45 AM by hankster »

Offline miraculon

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Re: "Davis Instruments wants to hear about your Weather Station"
« Reply #44 on: July 12, 2015, 12:05:27 PM »
Quote
to have 'Vantage' in the name could imply compatibility with existing Vue and VP2 stations, so VP3 is perhaps unlikely as name for a station with different comms.

Don't count on it. Davis broke compatibility between VP(1) and VP2. VP2 introduced frequency-hopping which was probably a worthwhile change. Davis' RF performance is excellent and I really hope that they follow the maxim "if it ain't broke don't fix it" as far as migrating to WiFi, Zigbee et al.

I agree that the outdoor sensors are good and the areas for improvement is in the consoles both in terms of visual appeal and flexibility. If they came out with a big brother of a VUE, with Envoy8x guts behind it and maintain compatibility with the existing VP2 line of sensors I could go for that. I am ambivalent on the graphics glitz, but others have a point that there is room for improvement there.

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Online johnd

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Re: "Davis Instruments wants to hear about your Weather Station"
« Reply #45 on: July 12, 2015, 01:55:17 PM »
Don't count on it. Davis broke compatibility between VP(1) and VP2.

Yes, that thought did cross my mind. I guess I was hoping that now that they have both Vue and VP2 family transmitters and several sets of receivers (Vue, VP2 and Envoy consoles and Connect units) all sharing the modern Vantage name that they wouldn't make the same mistake again.
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Offline hankster

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Re: "Davis Instruments wants to hear about your Weather Station"
« Reply #46 on: July 12, 2015, 03:36:39 PM »
Don't count on it. Davis broke compatibility between VP(1) and VP2.

Yes, that thought did cross my mind. I guess I was hoping that now that they have both Vue and VP2 family transmitters and several sets of receivers (Vue, VP2 and Envoy consoles and Connect units) all sharing the modern Vantage name that they wouldn't make the same mistake again.
Mistake? Maybe just planned obsolescence. :grin:

Offline C5250

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Re: "Davis Instruments wants to hear about your Weather Station"
« Reply #47 on: July 12, 2015, 10:31:32 PM »
Someone posted the reason they haven't done it with a firmware update already is the console doesn't have enough processor power for the altimeter calculations. The Davis VP2 supports more instruments & sensors than the VUE and apparently with the current setup is maxed out. Future units may have a better processor but how far do you go with processor. They still want the units to be portable so the more processor the more battery drain.

The sea level reduced barometer pressure reported by the VP2 is derived from altimeter, so processing power has nothing to do with it. In fact the current firmware reports altimeter pressure in the so called LOOP2 packet. The VP2 is not capable of displaying altimeter pressure though and that is because it only has so much program memory that has to support a lot of different things and there is very little still available.


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Offline ValentineWeather

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Re: "Davis Instruments wants to hear about your Weather Station"
« Reply #48 on: July 12, 2015, 10:45:51 PM »
Someone posted the reason they haven't done it with a firmware update already is the console doesn't have enough processor power for the altimeter calculations. The Davis VP2 supports more instruments & sensors than the VUE and apparently with the current setup is maxed out. Future units may have a better processor but how far do you go with processor. They still want the units to be portable so the more processor the more battery drain.

The sea level reduced barometer pressure reported by the VP2 is derived from altimeter, so processing power has nothing to do with it. In fact the current firmware reports altimeter pressure in the so called LOOP2 packet. The VP2 is not capable of displaying altimeter pressure though and that is because it only has so much program memory that has to support a lot of different things and there is very little still available.

That was covered but thanks.
Randy

Offline chief-david

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Re: "Davis Instruments wants to hear about your Weather Station"
« Reply #49 on: July 12, 2015, 11:03:49 PM »
Looks like I am the odd man out on this one.  No email.



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